why is it important? Maybe he was approached because he can be trusted to be sensitive to people's needs...
I never get why people need justification for this sort of thing. It seems like hair-splitting. Who cares? The fact is that he was approached and is really trying to get something solid to tell this guy. The purpose of this kind of "clarification" is to simply derail an honest discussion.
I understand he's trying to get something to tell this guy but is it stupid to say the man who approached him in a PM more than likely assumes he's gay as well? Would it not be safe to assume the man wanted to get advice from a gay man so he PM'ed Mikey G. Would you go get marital advice from someone who's never been married before or ask someone who has? That the point I'm trying to make.
And yea, you got me on the derail part. I think you're winning 4-1 in your favor.
I understand he's trying to get something to tell this guy but is it stupid to say the man who approached him in a PM more than likely assumes he's gay as well? Would it not be safe to assume the man wanted to get advice from a gay man so he PM'ed Mikey G. Would you go get marital advice from someone who's never been married before or ask someone who has? That the point I'm trying to make.
Oh no, I got that, and the point I am making is that it doesn't matter.
What Mikey said is entirely accurate and is one of the leading trains of though at the moment (take it from the bio-nerd!). The other big one is that when genes for male homosexuality arise in women it increases fertility (or another trait that is evolutionarily desirable) which makes her more likely to have offspring. When it is expressed in men, the evolutionary downside is mitigated by the other gender's evolutionary benefits. Beyond this, there are a number of strongly hereditary illnesses (cystic fibrosis comes to mind) that have infertility as a side effect. And to top it off, we haven't even begun discussing environmental causes of homosexuality like uterine testosterone levels.
My point is this: homosexuality is no more of a choice than heterosexuality.
But back to the original question - I would say all sexuality falls onto a spectrum. On one end you have totally straight, never even began thinking about a man in any sexual way ever and on the other you have totally gay, never ever began thinking about a woman in a sexual manner. The fact is, most people fall somewhere between those two extremes. And for a large part, where on falls in a moving target.
To repeat almost every non-crazy thing said on this thread: There is nothing to be ashamed of in liking men or women. Just do what feels comfortable and think what you want to and you will be happier.
Do you have a source for the information you present? I don't doubt that you are right I just wonder wether or not the increase in fertility is even noticible. Despite that most (and I stress that) heterosexual couples have about 2 children on average. I don't see this increase being that important because the number of children is usually something planned by the parents. So this increased fertility isn't really shining in the average american family.
I also would want to know who is presenting this information. The source of said information is very important, since scientific study should be done objectively.
The cystic fibrosis comment has nothing to do with a "gay gene" unless you are suggesting it is a disease caused by gene mutation. Furthermore cystic fibrosis' decreased fertility rate (seems to me) no be an evolutionary trait of the body to reduce the amount of carriers in the next generation....just a thought correct me if I'm wrong
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No, bisexuality is different from homosexuality.....
Why is gay in quotation marks?
This got me thinking, maybe people are confusing the term "gay" with "queer" (not you Mikey, but some others). Technically, "gay" refers to homosexuality, whereas "queer" refers to anything but strict heterosexuality.
In my opinion, an actual label is unneeded. If he thinks he's attracted to men, that's all that really matters. He should explore his feelings, decide what's true for him, and go from there. He can decide later if the word 'gay' applies.
Homosexuals aren't exactly reproducing like crazy so it doesn't make sense that more people would be gay every year if its genetic......Where is the logic?
Here. Kin selection theory is my favorite evolutionary explanation, and on the systems biology front I'm partial towards the heterozygous advantage hypothesis.
So if this is true then the genetic trait of homosexuality over the course of time would've quickly died out as the recessive trait would have been flushed out of a species almost entirely within one generation if the animals with the gene did not reproduce to pass it on.
Just like the allele for sickle cell anemia, right?
So in my educated opinon...
Spare me. Please educate yourself about kin selection theory and the very very basic idea of heterozygous advantage, then come back and discuss evolutionary biology. Seriously, these are two ideas taught in Bio 101.
This got me thinking, maybe people are confusing the term "gay" with "queer" (not you Mikey, but some others). Technically, "gay" refers to homosexuality, whereas "queer" refers to anything but strict heterosexuality.
Another reason that I am clueless. Thanks for the clarification
Here. Kin selection theory is my favorite evolutionary explanation, and on the systems biology front I'm partial towards the heterozygous advantage hypothesis.
Just like the allele for sickle cell anemia, right?
Spare me. Please educate yourself about kin selection theory and the very very basic idea of heterozygous advantage, then come back and discuss evolutionary biology. Seriously, these are two ideas taught in Bio 101.
Good News!! You don't have to speculate any more because its right there in the opening post. lol. seriously.
Also, I thought I'd echo the "it could just be one guy/some guys/a phase" thing. There's this fear in the LGBT community of the phrase "It's just a phase" because it's been used so many times to be dismissive of people who actually are homosexual or queer, but the truth is that for some people it actually is a phase (or an individual or individuals). There's nothing wrong with that.
I remember hearing on a documentary (Same Sex America for anyone who's interested) about this gay guy who dated a self-identified straight man for ten years. He would always say "I'd be with a woman if I weren't with you". He eventually moved on to get married to a woman and have kids. The point is that you need to figure out for yourself if it actually is a phase or not, and not ☺☺☺☺ing worry about it, because it happens for more people than would like to admit.
This got me thinking, maybe people are confusing the term "gay" with "queer" (not you Mikey, but some others). Technically, "gay" refers to homosexuality, whereas "queer" refers to anything but strict heterosexuality.
QFT
Here. Kin selection theory is my favorite evolutionary explanation, and on the systems biology front I'm partial towards the heterozygous advantage hypothesis.
Just like the allele for sickle cell anemia, right?
Spare me. Please educate yourself about kin selection theory and the very very basic idea of heterozygous advantage, then come back and discuss evolutionary biology. Seriously, these are two ideas taught in Bio 101.
Why do you bring up sickle cell anemia in an argument on whether homosexuality is genetic? Unless of course you are implying it is a disease that needs to be treated. Also bringing up heterozygous advantage when your trump card is sickle cell is quite funny since thhat refutes your own remark.
Heterozygous advatange allows the recessive trait of sickle cell to stay around because of evolution sickle cell is most common in the sub saharan region of africa and tropic climates which are prone to malaria. The "disease" in this case makes the person more resistant to getting malaria.
So what amazing advantage does the recessive trait of homosexualtity contain that allows it to continue to stay in humans besides the aformentioned increased fertility in femal carriers which I will assume is negligable until I am presented with data. So your argument doesn't really work unless you have some genetic advamtage to homo sapiens that involves keeping this gene around.
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I wasn't going to respond, if only to keep this on topic, but I can't really just not respond to such misguided pseudoscience, especially since it can affect how the anonymous member in question sees himself and his situation (unless the mods would prefer that I not continue). So I'll just put this in spoilers.
Why do you bring up sickle cell anemia in an argument on whether homosexuality is genetic?
It's the classic example of how a trait that can cause an individual to have a decreased or null production of offspring can still exist in a statistically stable state within a population.
It makes perfect sense if you don't think of natural selection as acting upon populations or even individuals, but rather traits.
Unless of course you are implying it is a disease that needs to be treated.
Holy slippery slope Batman! Try an alternative evolutionary condition.
Heterozygous advatange allows the recessive trait of sickle cell to stay around because of evolution.
You mean natural selection. But I'm still not sure why you don't see the parallel here. Is it not at all possible to you that homosexuality could be caused by the cooperation of various recessive traits?
So what amazing advantage does the recessive trait of homosexualtity contain that allows it to continue to stay in humans....
Not sure (hence the lack of a consensus as to what this advantage exactly is). But it's clear that it does confer some kind of advantage; otherwise it would probably have eventually disappeared.
....besides the aformentioned increased fertility in femal carriers which I will assume is negligable until I am presented with data.
Why would you assume that? Don't assume anything about a hypothesis until you have data to back it up, either in favor of or against it.
I can give you another example which is depression. I have an irregularity of serotonin in my brain which is supposed to make me unhappy all the time. Well brain....sucks to be you cause I'm happy, I chose it. Me. Not my brain. Not my genetics. They actually chose the other direction but I made my own choice.
Being happy is not a choice if you have low serotonin levels. Most people with severely low serotonin production are only happy when they're thinking of traumatizing moments or imagining themselves tortured, other times they develop OCD like behaviors which are time consuming. Even if you believe you've achieved true bliss, wouldn't you want to be fully functioning? Get yourself medically treated soon.
But so you have no scientific evidence? What about life evidence? Was a gay person you know's dad or mom gay? What about their mum and dad? Homosexuals aren't exactly reproducing like crazy so it doesn't make sense that more people would be gay every year if its genetic......Where is the logic?
I would SEVERELY disagree that genetic homosexuality is a widely accepted idea.
Yes I actually know a gay kid with a gay dad.
but this is faulty logic anyway, just because gay people don't reproduce as much as straight people in your hypothesis doesn't mean that its a recessive/dominate trait induced purely through alleles. if that was true, gay families would only have gay kids and straight families would only have straight children. It could happen from an easy change in genetic structure from things like mutation (scientifically, nobody get upset) or it could be from any number of brain chemistry changes early on. Not all genetics have to do with your high school notion of Chemistry class and the Mendels theories on reproduction.
Also, IQ tests differ from who hands them out and are simply a means of the community to judge their perceived intelligence as its impossible to measure actual intelligence with a few test scores. Throwing around some random IQ score from who knows where does not make you a genius or even an authority on the subject.
But obviously you've chosen your IQ for yourself, so its irrelevant to persuade you anyways.
Hey guess what guys? I choose to have over 9000 IQ points! /sarcasm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alderant Mikey G the admin on this site is openly a "Gaymer." I like his posts and threads he starts sometimes but will never understand the point of stating personal sexual preference in a signature.
Then you said
Now people are PM'ing you on advice on trying to figure out if he is gay or not. Can you please explain the dubeyew tee eff that comes across alot of peoples minds? It seems the gay topic is the hot topic of the water cooler talk so I figure I would ask.
I'm bi. I'm sorry for the confusion on your part, but I don't advertise my orientation apart from when it's relevant. I'm told going out of my way to tell people puts people off.
This got me thinking, maybe people are confusing the term "gay" with "queer" (not you Mikey, but some others). Technically, "gay" refers to homosexuality, whereas "queer" refers to anything but strict heterosexuality.
Pretty much. The terminology really changes depending on who's talking. The LGBT community tends to make the distinction while those outside or otherwise inexperienced don't know to differentiate. I mostly adapt to the speaker and understand what it is they're trying to say.
I'm not sure exactly how he worded it to you mikey but if his assured you his still attracted to girls his unlikely to be gay. So the title in the question is a moot point.
He did indicate that he was attracted to guys, plural. And that he was still attracted to girls, plural.
And the title was made in reference to his original question prior to his awareness of other options.
Mikey could you ask if his finding the topic helpful at all? It would be good to know. P:
He's already told me that it's been a great help. When he goes back to school in the fall, he plans to find out if his school has an LGBT group because he still feels a little lost an alone (remember that he's from a small community in a red state, so he probably doesn't even know another queer person, at least not an open one). I suggested an LBGT group to help him meet more people who share similar experiences and might help him feel more comfortable with himself in his community.
Also, I thought I'd echo the "it could just be one guy/some guys/a phase" thing. There's this fear in the LGBT community of the phrase "It's just a phase" because it's been used so many times to be dismissive of people who actually are homosexual or queer, but the truth is that for some people it actually is a phase (or an individual or individuals). There's nothing wrong with that.
I wasn't going to respond, if only to keep this on topic, but I can't really just not respond to such misguided pseudoscience, especially since it can affect how the anonymous member in question sees himself and his situation (unless the mods would prefer that I not continue). So I'll just put this in spoilers.
The science talk wasn't a planned tangent, but I think it still has some educational value to 'queerlings' (my pet name for newly questioning queer youth), who may be wondering how it is they've come to feel how they do. Dispelling myths and presenting information can go a long way to empowering a person.
I read through the first page and will probably get to the second page when time permits, but I wanted to make these comments while they were still in mind, some repeating what others have already said.
- The label conversation I'm just setting aside. I'm a firm believer in labels being a natural, scientific way to treat the world, but it has little to do with the OP question.
- Being conscious of your thoughts and feelings is key to finding mates you truly would want to be with. At some point, you'll have to ask yourself questions about anyone important in your life, and being honest with your responses will get you to the next step of reasoning. "Can I spend a significant portion of my life with this person?" "Would I enjoy social intimacy with this person?" "Do I want to try a sexual relationship with this person?" Etc.
- In any given relation between two people, you're going to find a set of qualities in the companionship to evaluate. Most of these wont lead anywhere, some will spark sincere interests, some will relate to deeply intimate moments. Finding people you want in your life is the central task, and things like race, class, or sexuality are often just other features of someone you otherwise enjoy (that is, those facets are in many, most, or all cases unimportant to why you like said individual).
- If you're just looking for sex ans relationships don't necessarily matter, that experimenting is probably the way to go.
- The label conversation I'm just setting aside. I'm a firm believer in labels being a natural, scientific way to treat the world, but it has little to do with the OP question.
I think in this case, labels can be a bit treacherous in that certain labels can carry generalized connotations. In this case, what 'gay' is, what 'straight' is, etc. Based on inexperience and stereotypes, the user in question here may associate concepts with 'gay' that don't apply to him. He doesn't fit the label of gay that he's working with, and that causes further confusion and angst. for example. Using particular labels may wind up being inaccurate and make things harder. I think this is a case where as natural as labels are, it'd be better to apply relevant labels after figuring yourself out.
why is it important? Maybe he was approached because he can be trusted to be sensitive to people's needs...
I never get why people need justification for this sort of thing. It seems like hair-splitting. Who cares? The fact is that he was approached and is really trying to get something solid to tell this guy. The purpose of this kind of "clarification" is to simply derail an honest discussion.
WTF are you blathering about? What does incest have to do with anything? Seriously...Your wall of text, in the end, says nothing.
was i specifically talking about incest? no i was not. There are people that get attracted to their siblings/ parents/ family. Did you honestly think that "liking" somebody was limited to people outside of your family?
Apparently you could not understand that about the post in the first place. Only because you like 1 female doesnt mean you'll like ALL female's.
That is what I said, that is what I've been saying, and apparently you cant get that through your thick skull, to realize that having an attraction towards one person, will not mean you are attracted to an entire community.
I didn't say anything about having incest relationships.
@The Dark Knight: I think you have misunderstood my position on the issue. My personal opinion is it is a choice. I was just using that argument to say that homosexuality may or may not have been genetic and if it was it seems that with no evidence supporting its advantage as a recessive trait it would've dissipated quickly. Saying that it is genetic and arguing that it should be gone would be ignorant and I think you might have not understood my point.
You even agrred that there is no known advantage to the species for having the "gay gene."
The only reason I discount the fertility claim is there was no evidence to support it.
On topic: I feel that the only way to find out for sure, if there are questions, is to just test the waters so to speak. I have a friend that actually had been bi previously and had thoughts and sexual fantasies about the same sex. He finally had an encounter with a guy and made out with him and quickly realized his orientation was definitely straight. Not saying that is what the op should do but he had to experience his curiosity to know for sure.
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You even agrred that there is no known advantage to the species for having the "gay gene."
There is no proven advantages, but there are several working theories that are being researched. Keep in mind that scientific research into the nature of sexual orientation is still rather in its infancy, at least as far as homosexuality as a benefit is concerned.
The only reason I discount the fertility claim is there was no evidence to support it.
A 2004 Italian study seemed to support the theory that homosexuality tended to increase female fecundity in relatives. How or why that is hasn't been fully explained yet to my knowledge. Again, research in this area is still incredibly new and incomplete.
On topic: I feel that the only way to find out for sure, if there are questions, is to just test the waters so to speak. I have a friend that actually had been bi previously and had thoughts and sexual fantasies about the same sex. He finally had an encounter with a guy and made out with him and quickly realized his orientation was definitely straight. Not saying that is what the op should do but he had to experience his curiosity to know for sure.
And what if it was just the wrong guy? Why are you so adamant that it's a choice? Did you wake up one morning and say "I'm going to be straight/gay/bi?"
As the alarm goes off I struggle to open my bleary eyes. I look over and it's 5:15; it's time to get up for work. I look down at my morning visitor and wonder...what was I dreaming about? After almost drifting back to sleep I finally push the sheets off me and lumber out of bed. My morning ritual is pretty concrete. I take a shower and brush my teeth. I shave. I hate facial hair. I think to myself, "Hm. Maybe I should get laser hair removal on my face?" Other random thoughts spring into my head as I get dressed and move to the kitchen. "Why do I brush my teeth before I eat breakfast...only to brush my teeth again afterward?" Nonplused by my own redundancies I chomp down a freshly made peanut butter sandwich and slam back a glass of tangy pulpy orange juice. I leave the dishes in the sink and run some water over them before heading back to the bathroom to brush my teeth for the second time today. Eventually this leads me to work somehow. There's always a fumbling with my keys and that unnerving feeling that I've forgotten something.
I'm in my car. I get a phone call. It's my girlfriend of four years, Jaeda. We have a pleasant, as she would define it, conversation about something I'll never remember. My mind wanders until I hear silence on the other side of the phone. At once we both realize that I wasn't listening and now I'm in for it. Apparently she had just accused me of sleeping with her best friend Lashelle. "That's ludicrous," I ponder. "I would never sleep with Lashelle. She's not as hot as her sister Isis and I hit that alllll the time. Why'd I think this conversation was so pleasant again?" I'm a sweet talker though and I'm out of danger in no time. One thing you learn from being in a relationship with someone for so long is how to stay firmly on the edge of danger without ever actually crossing the line....that she knows of. "Man....Isis."
I think in this case, labels can be a bit treacherous in that certain labels can carry generalized connotations. In this case, what 'gay' is, what 'straight' is, etc. Based on inexperience and stereotypes, the user in question here may associate concepts with 'gay' that don't apply to him. He doesn't fit the label of gay that he's working with, and that causes further confusion and angst. for example. Using particular labels may wind up being inaccurate and make things harder. I think this is a case where as natural as labels are, it'd be better to apply relevant labels after figuring yourself out.
I agree with this sentiment. What I was getting at was (1) that labeling the person who's question this thread is based on wont do much at this point because (2) he hasn't seemingly explored his sexuality in a thorough nature. Basically, the scientific process. Said individual is trying to define his sexuality (was it ever confirmed the subject is male?... I'm using male pronouns only because its the course taken by this thread), and he'll get there with open and honest attempts to experience the options.
As for the connotations carried by each label, I wasn't concerned with them because they have little to do with the actual sexuality, much more to do with social outlook and interaction. At that point, if the questioner is feeling social pressures from friends, family, religion, or anything else, I hope he PMs you so we can discuss that at length. Until it is mentioned, though, I'm considering it a facet not belonging directly in this conversation.
I was just using that argument to say that homosexuality may or may not have been genetic and if it was it seems that with no evidence supporting its advantage as a recessive trait it would've dissipated quickly.
There are quite a few working mathematical models that can explain how homosexuality can be maintained in a stable population. The truth is, however, that there is little to no evidence to expand upon these models. But instead of saying that this means there is no evidence supporting the existence of the advantage, you can just as easily say that there is no evidence denying its existence either. Yes, these models have the burden of proof here, but that doesn't mean any assertion that homosexuality is not genetic is free of the burden of proof either.
TL;DR, Homosexuality could be genetic, plausibly, but we simply don't know either way.
And what if it was just the wrong guy? Why are you so adamant that it's a choice? Did you wake up one morning and say "I'm going to be straight/gay/bi?"
As the alarm goes off I struggle to open my bleary eyes. I look over and it's 5:15; it's time to get up for work. I look down at my morning visitor and wonder...what was I dreaming about? After almost drifting back to sleep I finally push the sheets off me and lumber out of bed. My morning ritual is pretty concrete. I take a shower and brush my teeth. I shave. I hate facial hair. I think to myself, "Hm. Maybe I should get laser hair removal on my face?" Other random thoughts spring into my head as I get dressed and move to the kitchen. "Why do I brush my teeth before I eat breakfast...only to brush my teeth again afterward?" Nonplused by my own redundancies I chomp down a freshly made peanut butter sandwich and slam back a glass of tangy pulpy orange juice. I leave the dishes in the sink and run some water over them before heading back to the bathroom to brush my teeth for the second time today. Eventually this leads me to work somehow. There's always a fumbling with my keys and that unnerving feeling that I've forgotten something.
I'm in my car. I get a phone call. It's my girlfriend of four years, Jaeda. We have a pleasant, as she would define it, conversation about something I'll never remember. My mind wanders until I hear silence on the other side of the phone. At once we both realize that I wasn't listening and now I'm in for it. Apparently she had just accused me of sleeping with her best friend Lashelle. "That's ludicrous," I ponder. "I would never sleep with Lashelle. She's not as hot as her sister Isis and I hit that alllll the time. Why'd I think this conversation was so pleasant again?" I'm a sweet talker though and I'm out of danger in no time. One thing you learn from being in a relationship with someone for so long is how to stay firmly on the edge of danger without ever actually crossing the line....that she knows of. "Man....Isis."
Meh women are a hassle. I think I'll be gay.
The friend I was referring to had already been with women and wanted to experiment. He said once it went from a fantasy to actually happening he didn't feel the same and he said he knew he was straight, no questions.
Well that is just my belief. We are all entitled to our own opinions and that is mine.
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was i specifically talking about incest? no i was not. There are people that get attracted to their siblings/ parents/ family. Did you honestly think that "liking" somebody was limited to people outside of your family?
Apparently you could not understand that about the post in the first place. Only because you like 1 female doesnt mean you'll like ALL female's.
That is what I said, that is what I've been saying, and apparently you cant get that through your thick skull, to realize that having an attraction towards one person, will not mean you are attracted to an entire community.
I didn't say anything about having incest relationships.
I am sorry, but I have trouble reading your posts. It would help if they were coherent and my "skull weren't so thick". This in just embarrassing for both of us.
The friend I was referring to had already been with women and wanted to experiment. He said once it went from a fantasy to actually happening he didn't feel the same and he said he knew he was straight, no questions.
Well that is just my belief. We are all entitled to our own opinions and that is mine.
The problem is when you espouse beliefs as facts it confuses people. If there's a fantasy there then it's something worth exploring but real life is rarely if ever as vibrant and vivid as fantasy life so it's a lot to live up to. And one bad experience does not a hetero make if you ask me. It's good that he figured out what was right for him, though. Some people won't even take those steps to figure out if there's more to them than they're willing to admit.
I am sorry, but I have trouble reading your posts. It would help if they were coherent and my "skull weren't so thick". This in just embarrassing for both of us.
Nope you only read what you want to read. Do I need to type in 1337 speak for you? or would Txt Speak work much better?
Help me, help you, better understand what I'm trying to say. Or do i need to type in a completely different language?
The specifics of the mechanics of sexual orientation aren't fully understood.
But the fact is that twin studies have found that if one identical twin is gay, the chance of the other twin being gay is higher than it is for fraternal twins, or for siblings that aren't genetically related.
That pretty much seals the deal that there is a genetic component to sexual orientation. But since identical twins aren't both gay or both straight 100% of the time, that suggests that other factors, such as the prenatal (hormones in the womb and such) and postnatal environment can have an effect.
There isn't any good evidence that "personal choice" is much of a factor.
But Sherp of course prefers to believe the theory that fits with his preconceived beliefs and "morals", even tho he has no evidence for it other than "common sense" like "The human race needs to reproduce so we must all be straight at birth!" How about remaining an agnostic on the issue, if you don't think there's any evidence?
But there is. I don't feel like spending the time to compile all of it for you, but it's out there, people have posted links that will lead you right to it.
But sure, your gut feelings are probably more trustworthy.
As for the OP, it's pretty much based on whether you are sexually and romantically attracted to men, and not women. So, the guy in the OP definitely would seem to be bisexual, but it's up to him to explore his feelings and to what extent he's attracted to men. One may choose to identify as gay or straight if you feel that the split is like 90-10 or 85-15... Some people call that hetero- or homo-flexible.
Some guys may choose to experiment, but that doesn't then make it a choice for all gay people. It is completely feasible and from my experience realistic that the scope and range of sexuality makes it so that some people are in the middle of the scale and some people are way off the other end, I have heard from some gay men that they 'can' be with woman it just doesn't feel as natural. Lets say for the sake of a hackneyed example there is a 95% attraction to guys and a 5% attraction to women who on earth in there right minds would judge that as a 'choice' should they identify as gay.
Even if gay people had a choice it must be the most biased choice i can imagine, influenced by so many subconscious factors as to leave you consciously believing that there is no choice.
I know for a fact there is an underground LGBT community in Iran, i also know what happens to people who identify as gay in Iran, is anyone going to tell me these people in these countries 'choose' to be gay and face death. Aside from a few liberal parts of the western world who the hell consciously chooses to be gay today?!
Interesting case in point, gender reassignment operations are legal and carried out routinely in Iran. It has been documented that some gay men/women in iran choose to undergo gender reassignment surgery so they can openly be in a relationship with a person of the same sex without the threat of being hung. Who in there right minds would choose that? Would you want to have to have your tackle cut off and be pumped with hormone till you started growing boobs just so you can exercise your 'choice' to have a same sex relationship. Utterly surreal.
I'm sorry but i just can't see it.
I defy anyone to watch Africa's last taboo or A jihad for love and tell me these people 'choose' to be gay.
Just a quick question.
Regardless of orientation and etc.. If you loved someone and truly cared for them would you not do anything to be with them regardless of the consequence. Wouldn't you be implying that someone who did this is not in their right mind?
Then wouldn't a way out of persecution (gender switching) be an inviting alternative to safly express your love?
I think you are looking at this kind of behavior in the wrong way. If a person chooses to be gay they are not choosing persecution; they are choosing the orientation that best allows them to express love for whomever theycare about in that way.
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Regardless of orientation and etc.. If you loved someone and truly cared for them would you not do anything to be with them regardless of the consequence. Wouldn't you be implying that someone who did this is not in their right mind?
Then wouldn't a way out of persecution (gender switching) be an inviting alternative to safly express your love?
1. There is no known way to switch gender.
2. Transsexualism is a horrible, debilitating condition.
3. Gays and lesbians are not necessarily transsexual and vice versa.
4. By advocating their gays (and lesbians?) to change sex, Iran is creating transsexuals.
By caving to bigotry, these poor people are subjecting themselves to a nightmare. It might make their love legal, but it's very hard to properly love someone else when you can't love yourself.
I think you are looking at this kind of behavior in the wrong way. If a person chooses to be gay they are not choosing persecution; they are choosing the orientation that best allows them to express love for whomever theycare about in that way.
You have your cause and effect backwards. They aren't "choosing" an orientation to be with someone they love. They love someone because of their orientation.
If you truly believe being gay is a choice, then I challenge you to make that choice. For the next couple days, choose to find men attractive in they way you now find women attractive.
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I understand he's trying to get something to tell this guy but is it stupid to say the man who approached him in a PM more than likely assumes he's gay as well? Would it not be safe to assume the man wanted to get advice from a gay man so he PM'ed Mikey G. Would you go get marital advice from someone who's never been married before or ask someone who has? That the point I'm trying to make.
And yea, you got me on the derail part. I think you're winning 4-1 in your favor.
Oh no, I got that, and the point I am making is that it doesn't matter.
Do you have a source for the information you present? I don't doubt that you are right I just wonder wether or not the increase in fertility is even noticible. Despite that most (and I stress that) heterosexual couples have about 2 children on average. I don't see this increase being that important because the number of children is usually something planned by the parents. So this increased fertility isn't really shining in the average american family.
I also would want to know who is presenting this information. The source of said information is very important, since scientific study should be done objectively.
The cystic fibrosis comment has nothing to do with a "gay gene" unless you are suggesting it is a disease caused by gene mutation. Furthermore cystic fibrosis' decreased fertility rate (seems to me) no be an evolutionary trait of the body to reduce the amount of carriers in the next generation....just a thought correct me if I'm wrong
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This got me thinking, maybe people are confusing the term "gay" with "queer" (not you Mikey, but some others). Technically, "gay" refers to homosexuality, whereas "queer" refers to anything but strict heterosexuality.
QFT
Just like the allele for sickle cell anemia, right?
Spare me. Please educate yourself about kin selection theory and the very very basic idea of heterozygous advantage, then come back and discuss evolutionary biology. Seriously, these are two ideas taught in Bio 101.
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Another reason that I am clueless. Thanks for the clarification
Quoted for funny
I remember hearing on a documentary (Same Sex America for anyone who's interested) about this gay guy who dated a self-identified straight man for ten years. He would always say "I'd be with a woman if I weren't with you". He eventually moved on to get married to a woman and have kids. The point is that you need to figure out for yourself if it actually is a phase or not, and not ☺☺☺☺ing worry about it, because it happens for more people than would like to admit.
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Why do you bring up sickle cell anemia in an argument on whether homosexuality is genetic? Unless of course you are implying it is a disease that needs to be treated. Also bringing up heterozygous advantage when your trump card is sickle cell is quite funny since thhat refutes your own remark.
Heterozygous advatange allows the recessive trait of sickle cell to stay around because of evolution sickle cell is most common in the sub saharan region of africa and tropic climates which are prone to malaria. The "disease" in this case makes the person more resistant to getting malaria.
So what amazing advantage does the recessive trait of homosexualtity contain that allows it to continue to stay in humans besides the aformentioned increased fertility in femal carriers which I will assume is negligable until I am presented with data. So your argument doesn't really work unless you have some genetic advamtage to homo sapiens that involves keeping this gene around.
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It makes perfect sense if you don't think of natural selection as acting upon populations or even individuals, but rather traits.
Holy slippery slope Batman! Try an alternative evolutionary condition.
You mean natural selection. But I'm still not sure why you don't see the parallel here. Is it not at all possible to you that homosexuality could be caused by the cooperation of various recessive traits?
Not sure (hence the lack of a consensus as to what this advantage exactly is). But it's clear that it does confer some kind of advantage; otherwise it would probably have eventually disappeared.
Why would you assume that? Don't assume anything about a hypothesis until you have data to back it up, either in favor of or against it.
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Being happy is not a choice if you have low serotonin levels. Most people with severely low serotonin production are only happy when they're thinking of traumatizing moments or imagining themselves tortured, other times they develop OCD like behaviors which are time consuming. Even if you believe you've achieved true bliss, wouldn't you want to be fully functioning? Get yourself medically treated soon.
Yes I actually know a gay kid with a gay dad.
but this is faulty logic anyway, just because gay people don't reproduce as much as straight people in your hypothesis doesn't mean that its a recessive/dominate trait induced purely through alleles. if that was true, gay families would only have gay kids and straight families would only have straight children. It could happen from an easy change in genetic structure from things like mutation (scientifically, nobody get upset) or it could be from any number of brain chemistry changes early on. Not all genetics have to do with your high school notion of Chemistry class and the Mendels theories on reproduction.
Also, IQ tests differ from who hands them out and are simply a means of the community to judge their perceived intelligence as its impossible to measure actual intelligence with a few test scores. Throwing around some random IQ score from who knows where does not make you a genius or even an authority on the subject.
But obviously you've chosen your IQ for yourself, so its irrelevant to persuade you anyways.
Hey guess what guys? I choose to have over 9000 IQ points! /sarcasm
I'm bi. I'm sorry for the confusion on your part, but I don't advertise my orientation apart from when it's relevant. I'm told going out of my way to tell people puts people off.
Pretty much. The terminology really changes depending on who's talking. The LGBT community tends to make the distinction while those outside or otherwise inexperienced don't know to differentiate. I mostly adapt to the speaker and understand what it is they're trying to say.
He did indicate that he was attracted to guys, plural. And that he was still attracted to girls, plural.
And the title was made in reference to his original question prior to his awareness of other options.
He's already told me that it's been a great help. When he goes back to school in the fall, he plans to find out if his school has an LGBT group because he still feels a little lost an alone (remember that he's from a small community in a red state, so he probably doesn't even know another queer person, at least not an open one). I suggested an LBGT group to help him meet more people who share similar experiences and might help him feel more comfortable with himself in his community.
Word.
The science talk wasn't a planned tangent, but I think it still has some educational value to 'queerlings' (my pet name for newly questioning queer youth), who may be wondering how it is they've come to feel how they do. Dispelling myths and presenting information can go a long way to empowering a person.
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- The label conversation I'm just setting aside. I'm a firm believer in labels being a natural, scientific way to treat the world, but it has little to do with the OP question.
- Being conscious of your thoughts and feelings is key to finding mates you truly would want to be with. At some point, you'll have to ask yourself questions about anyone important in your life, and being honest with your responses will get you to the next step of reasoning. "Can I spend a significant portion of my life with this person?" "Would I enjoy social intimacy with this person?" "Do I want to try a sexual relationship with this person?" Etc.
- In any given relation between two people, you're going to find a set of qualities in the companionship to evaluate. Most of these wont lead anywhere, some will spark sincere interests, some will relate to deeply intimate moments. Finding people you want in your life is the central task, and things like race, class, or sexuality are often just other features of someone you otherwise enjoy (that is, those facets are in many, most, or all cases unimportant to why you like said individual).
- If you're just looking for sex ans relationships don't necessarily matter, that experimenting is probably the way to go.
I think in this case, labels can be a bit treacherous in that certain labels can carry generalized connotations. In this case, what 'gay' is, what 'straight' is, etc. Based on inexperience and stereotypes, the user in question here may associate concepts with 'gay' that don't apply to him. He doesn't fit the label of gay that he's working with, and that causes further confusion and angst. for example. Using particular labels may wind up being inaccurate and make things harder. I think this is a case where as natural as labels are, it'd be better to apply relevant labels after figuring yourself out.
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was i specifically talking about incest? no i was not. There are people that get attracted to their siblings/ parents/ family. Did you honestly think that "liking" somebody was limited to people outside of your family?
Apparently you could not understand that about the post in the first place. Only because you like 1 female doesnt mean you'll like ALL female's.
That is what I said, that is what I've been saying, and apparently you cant get that through your thick skull, to realize that having an attraction towards one person, will not mean you are attracted to an entire community.
I didn't say anything about having incest relationships.
EDIT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_complex
read that, its not out of scope.
You even agrred that there is no known advantage to the species for having the "gay gene."
The only reason I discount the fertility claim is there was no evidence to support it.
On topic: I feel that the only way to find out for sure, if there are questions, is to just test the waters so to speak. I have a friend that actually had been bi previously and had thoughts and sexual fantasies about the same sex. He finally had an encounter with a guy and made out with him and quickly realized his orientation was definitely straight. Not saying that is what the op should do but he had to experience his curiosity to know for sure.
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There is no proven advantages, but there are several working theories that are being researched. Keep in mind that scientific research into the nature of sexual orientation is still rather in its infancy, at least as far as homosexuality as a benefit is concerned.
A 2004 Italian study seemed to support the theory that homosexuality tended to increase female fecundity in relatives. How or why that is hasn't been fully explained yet to my knowledge. Again, research in this area is still incredibly new and incomplete.
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And what if it was just the wrong guy? Why are you so adamant that it's a choice? Did you wake up one morning and say "I'm going to be straight/gay/bi?"
As the alarm goes off I struggle to open my bleary eyes. I look over and it's 5:15; it's time to get up for work. I look down at my morning visitor and wonder...what was I dreaming about? After almost drifting back to sleep I finally push the sheets off me and lumber out of bed. My morning ritual is pretty concrete. I take a shower and brush my teeth. I shave. I hate facial hair. I think to myself, "Hm. Maybe I should get laser hair removal on my face?" Other random thoughts spring into my head as I get dressed and move to the kitchen. "Why do I brush my teeth before I eat breakfast...only to brush my teeth again afterward?" Nonplused by my own redundancies I chomp down a freshly made peanut butter sandwich and slam back a glass of tangy pulpy orange juice. I leave the dishes in the sink and run some water over them before heading back to the bathroom to brush my teeth for the second time today. Eventually this leads me to work somehow. There's always a fumbling with my keys and that unnerving feeling that I've forgotten something.
I'm in my car. I get a phone call. It's my girlfriend of four years, Jaeda. We have a pleasant, as she would define it, conversation about something I'll never remember. My mind wanders until I hear silence on the other side of the phone. At once we both realize that I wasn't listening and now I'm in for it. Apparently she had just accused me of sleeping with her best friend Lashelle. "That's ludicrous," I ponder. "I would never sleep with Lashelle. She's not as hot as her sister Isis and I hit that alllll the time. Why'd I think this conversation was so pleasant again?" I'm a sweet talker though and I'm out of danger in no time. One thing you learn from being in a relationship with someone for so long is how to stay firmly on the edge of danger without ever actually crossing the line....that she knows of. "Man....Isis."
Meh women are a hassle. I think I'll be gay.
I agree with this sentiment. What I was getting at was (1) that labeling the person who's question this thread is based on wont do much at this point because (2) he hasn't seemingly explored his sexuality in a thorough nature. Basically, the scientific process. Said individual is trying to define his sexuality (was it ever confirmed the subject is male?... I'm using male pronouns only because its the course taken by this thread), and he'll get there with open and honest attempts to experience the options.
As for the connotations carried by each label, I wasn't concerned with them because they have little to do with the actual sexuality, much more to do with social outlook and interaction. At that point, if the questioner is feeling social pressures from friends, family, religion, or anything else, I hope he PMs you so we can discuss that at length. Until it is mentioned, though, I'm considering it a facet not belonging directly in this conversation.
Oh, and God definitely hates fangs. TB<3
There are quite a few working mathematical models that can explain how homosexuality can be maintained in a stable population. The truth is, however, that there is little to no evidence to expand upon these models. But instead of saying that this means there is no evidence supporting the existence of the advantage, you can just as easily say that there is no evidence denying its existence either. Yes, these models have the burden of proof here, but that doesn't mean any assertion that homosexuality is not genetic is free of the burden of proof either.
TL;DR, Homosexuality could be genetic, plausibly, but we simply don't know either way.
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The friend I was referring to had already been with women and wanted to experiment. He said once it went from a fantasy to actually happening he didn't feel the same and he said he knew he was straight, no questions.
Well that is just my belief. We are all entitled to our own opinions and that is mine.
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I am sorry, but I have trouble reading your posts. It would help if they were coherent and my "skull weren't so thick". This in just embarrassing for both of us.
The problem is when you espouse beliefs as facts it confuses people. If there's a fantasy there then it's something worth exploring but real life is rarely if ever as vibrant and vivid as fantasy life so it's a lot to live up to. And one bad experience does not a hetero make if you ask me. It's good that he figured out what was right for him, though. Some people won't even take those steps to figure out if there's more to them than they're willing to admit.
Nope you only read what you want to read. Do I need to type in 1337 speak for you? or would Txt Speak work much better?
Help me, help you, better understand what I'm trying to say. Or do i need to type in a completely different language?
Warning for trolling.
-Yukora
But the fact is that twin studies have found that if one identical twin is gay, the chance of the other twin being gay is higher than it is for fraternal twins, or for siblings that aren't genetically related.
That pretty much seals the deal that there is a genetic component to sexual orientation. But since identical twins aren't both gay or both straight 100% of the time, that suggests that other factors, such as the prenatal (hormones in the womb and such) and postnatal environment can have an effect.
There isn't any good evidence that "personal choice" is much of a factor.
But Sherp of course prefers to believe the theory that fits with his preconceived beliefs and "morals", even tho he has no evidence for it other than "common sense" like "The human race needs to reproduce so we must all be straight at birth!" How about remaining an agnostic on the issue, if you don't think there's any evidence?
But there is. I don't feel like spending the time to compile all of it for you, but it's out there, people have posted links that will lead you right to it.
For example, the Wikipedia link can easily lead you to this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691850/?tool=pmcentrez
But sure, your gut feelings are probably more trustworthy.
As for the OP, it's pretty much based on whether you are sexually and romantically attracted to men, and not women. So, the guy in the OP definitely would seem to be bisexual, but it's up to him to explore his feelings and to what extent he's attracted to men. One may choose to identify as gay or straight if you feel that the split is like 90-10 or 85-15... Some people call that hetero- or homo-flexible.
Just a quick question.
Regardless of orientation and etc.. If you loved someone and truly cared for them would you not do anything to be with them regardless of the consequence. Wouldn't you be implying that someone who did this is not in their right mind?
Then wouldn't a way out of persecution (gender switching) be an inviting alternative to safly express your love?
I think you are looking at this kind of behavior in the wrong way. If a person chooses to be gay they are not choosing persecution; they are choosing the orientation that best allows them to express love for whomever theycare about in that way.
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1. There is no known way to switch gender.
2. Transsexualism is a horrible, debilitating condition.
3. Gays and lesbians are not necessarily transsexual and vice versa.
4. By advocating their gays (and lesbians?) to change sex, Iran is creating transsexuals.
By caving to bigotry, these poor people are subjecting themselves to a nightmare. It might make their love legal, but it's very hard to properly love someone else when you can't love yourself.
You have your cause and effect backwards. They aren't "choosing" an orientation to be with someone they love. They love someone because of their orientation.
If you truly believe being gay is a choice, then I challenge you to make that choice. For the next couple days, choose to find men attractive in they way you now find women attractive.