Thanks for the advice, I guess my responses were a little extreme. I guess I should clarify, i don't believe in the Disney love (the one and only soulmate in the world perfect for you, anyone can do) doesn't exclude the belief of agape love or any other type of love. The english language uses love too broadly. For those who are religious and married to an atheist, do you have kids? How do u overcome challenges when one spouse wants to raise the kids in a religious family and the other doesn't? Let the kids decide (usually results in sleeping in on Sundays :P)?
While I'm not married yet, I have had several conversations with my fiancee about raising children and their religious affiliation.
What ended up working for us was the agreement to have our children baptized, but anything past that is strictly their decision. As they grow up, and have questions, I will be there to answer them with my views, and my future wife would be there to explain hers. The actual decision to be Catholic, atheist, or whatever would be purely up to them. The reason we've agreed to this is simple, my fiancee wants our children to have the opportunity to completely build their own identity, and I, as a devout Christian, believe that there one must have complete free will to truly appreciate and have faith. Nothing good comes from forcing someone, be it your child or wife, into converting because that violates one of the core concepts of Christianity, which is pure and personal faith.
Again, the only problems that can come from a inter-faith relationship are disrespect and intolerance from either partner. As long as you two can love and respect each other, then there shouldn't be a problem.
The entire situation boils down to how important you feel missions are. Back when I went to church still, the sunday school teacher was married to an atheist and they expressed the importance of religion being a personal choice to their children. However, she had to deal with a very consistent criticism of letting her husband be an atheist, and faced questioned akin to "Don't you love your husband? Don't you want him to go to Heaven?".
If you are involved in your church, especially if you are meeting with other parishes, you will be criticized if/when it comes out. So long as you can put up with that and keep an open mind about the religious upbringing of the kids, you'll be fine.
A vast number of reasons, really. First and foremost being that you may not be ready for it. Being able to do something does not make it a wise decision to do so.
To be fair, there's a vast number of bad things that happen because of waiting, especially if you want to have kids.
I never disagreed with that point. Once you are married, I know I have responsibilities like sacrificing myself for her sake. I never said it was about me, but more about building a foundation of relationship based on 2 conflicting religious views seem like a bad place to start, for me and her in the long run.
You're right, you never explicitly said it was about you. But, it certainly seems evident in the tone of your posts.
And, the concept of sacrificing yourself for her sake, literally or figuratively, shouldn't start "once you are married". That should be part-and-parcel of your mindset before you reach the altar, if this girl matters to you.
As to the question regarding conflicting religions: I'm not sure what you're looking for here, it sounds like you've answered your own question.
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To be fair, there's a vast number of bad things that happen because of waiting, especially if you want to have kids.
Which I don't believe justify rushing into things in the first place. If you're entering into something like this, it really should be for the right reasons.
However, she had to deal with a very consistent criticism of letting her husband be an atheist, and faced questioned akin to "Don't you love your husband? Don't you want him to go to Heaven?".
I believe thats incorrect of people to do. While its true, that you can love somebody you cannot force your religious beliefs upon them. Does she want her husband to go to "Heaven" im sure she does. But its not her actions that will get him there, it is his.
He could still go to church, eff up and not end up in heaven. Overall I just feel its wrong that somebody that promotes "love, charity, peace, and respect" would stoop as low as to criticize somebody because that person does not believe in the same things as they.
@OP : Buddy don't let other people control the way you want to do stuff in life. You are the owner of your life and yours alone... do what you feel is right and stick by it.
Which I don't believe justify rushing into things in the first place. If you're entering into something like this, it really should be for the right reasons.
I'm just trying to say that there's never going to be a perfect time to get married, or even something as simple as moving in together. You're going to have to make some sort of leap of faith in order for it to happen, but there are certainly times in life when that leap would be easier to make.
I know sure, we would probably overlook this fact for the first few months, but inevitably I would have to show her to my parents and my parents will expect a christian girlfriend (since purpose of dating to me is for the sole purpose of finding a spouse or else it would be a waste of my time and resources).
In addition to the "waste of time and resources" bit still being very disconcerting, how much of all of this is based off of your parents' expectations?
He could still go to church, eff up and not end up in heaven.
This isn't possible.
Overall I just feel its wrong that somebody that promotes "love, charity, peace, and respect" would stoop as low as to criticize somebody because that person does not believe in the same things as they.
You'd be surprised, I talked to one guy that said, "If you don't believe in Christ, your going to hell"
Just like that.
I was like really?, then threw a whole skew of scriptural references that deny his claim, then he proceeded on stating that I would go to hell.
Apparently the only requirement for heavem is just believing in Christ. heck you don't even have to be baptized... which doesn't make any sense according to scripture...
I'm just trying to say that there's never going to be a perfect time to get married, or even something as simple as moving in together. You're going to have to make some sort of leap of faith in order for it to happen, but there are certainly times in life when that leap would be easier to make.
Oh, that I agree with. I just feel that if one isn't ready for an action, clearly it's best not to take it. Even if there's no clear perfect time to take these leaps, there are clear wrong times.
OP, you need to define what you want out of a relationship and look for a girl who wants something similar. My college roommate became a devout christian in his freshman year, because a girl converted him. He thought she was cute so he fell into it and became overly devout in my opinion. Once he figured out the girl was just converting him for the sake of converting him he felt like trash though. He fell even deeper into his religious beliefs and started trying to convert me and my friends. I can tell you right now, he may have been converted pretty easily, but it's really hard to convert people who don't want to be converted. Back to the topic at hand, he decided he wanted to find a christian girl age 17-19 and marry her exactly 6 months after dating her, and then remain celibat until their third anniversary, and then make a kid every 3 years until they have 6. Since to him, sex is only a way to procreate, this means they would only "do it" 6-X times, but still only once every three years. I personally think this is nuts(it doesn't help that he walks up to my female friends and asks them if they will be his "girlfriend and future wife"(a quote) even when i'm right there) and could never imagine myself or another human wanting a relationship like that. But he's pretty adamant about it. If you want a marriage where you share the same beliefs, thats how you have to look at your relationships. It's a waste of time to date an atheist when you're devout. Might I reccomend an agnostic? They're alot easier to convert, and as an agnostic/former christian currently dating an atheist with many ex's of different faiths, I can say that if you enter a relationship with someone who is set in their religious ways and you can't live with it, it's not going to work for you(one ex was heavy into islam, she had to stop and pray no matter where we were. kneeling in the line at wendy's and chanting isn't really accepted around here).
Edit: this is wicked scatterbrained. fixed it a little.
@OP: I get where you're coming from. Are you also asking Christian friends for advice? You'll need input that helps balance this out. You need to discuss with your potential wife long before you ask 'the internet' and people in your day-to-day existence. You can tell who they are because they actually care about your decision and you would notice/care if they were hurt by your decision.
@Everyone else: Be aware of how much you're deriving your views from your personal bias while you're helping this guy decide how he's going to navigate through life. I'm referring to concepts like "don't force your kids to be Christian, wait until much later" and this fanciful notion that children are equipped to construct themselves from the ground up.
You don't wait until a kid is 18 before you ask "do you want to play the piano", or "do you want to play your dad's favourite sport", or "do you want to learn to read?" or even "hey son, how about I teach you to play Magic?". In the same way, you don't wait until they're 18 before you ask them about religion or 'who they want to be' - at that age they're entirely victim to the whims of their peers.
@Everyone else: Be aware of how much you're deriving your views from your personal bias while you're helping this guy decide how he's going to navigate through life. I'm referring to concepts like "don't force your kids to be Christian, wait until much later" and this fanciful notion that children are equipped to construct themselves from the ground up.
Why not, I did. My parents were largely hands-off. They instilled in me basic standards (honestly, self-reliance, confidence, etc), but left almost everything else up to me. They encouraged and guided, not commanded and indoctrinated. While I was a kid, they had a rule where I had to enroll in an extracurricular activity, what it was was entirely up to me, but I had to do something. Sometimes it was a sport, sometimes it was a course or learning workshop, I was a kid so my focus was always shifting. But the point is that in terms of constructing my identity, they gave me the map and offered guidance, but left the navigation mainly up to me.
Personally, I've always found that forcing your child to be X (be it a religion, a sport, a concentration in school, a job, etc) is largely selfish on the parent and typically unhealthy for the child. Parents think they're doing the right thing, but when you get down to it they're denying their children the freedom of choice. Which isn't to say that kids always make the right choices, they don't. They don't even often make the right choices. But mistakes are just as important to personal growth and the freedom to make those mistakes is vital to a healthy upbringing.
You don't wait until a kid is 18 before you ask "do you want to play the piano", or "do you want to play your dad's favourite sport", or "do you want to learn to read?" or even "hey son, how about I teach you to play Magic?". In the same way, you don't wait until they're 18 before you ask them about religion or 'who they want to be' - at that age they're entirely victim to the whims of their peers.
Some of those questions should be asked long before 18, and religion isn't a question a parent ought to ask at all, in my opinion. Religious choice ought to be made as an adult free of pressure and entirely upon one's own free will. Otherwise, it's not truly a decision of faith, is it?
Why not, I did. My parents were largely hands-off. They instilled in me basic standards (honestly, self-reliance, confidence, etc), but left almost everything else up to me. They encouraged and guided, not commanded and indoctrinated. While I was a kid, they had a rule where I had to enroll in an extracurricular activity, what it was was entirely up to me, but I had to do something. Sometimes it was a sport, sometimes it was a course or learning workshop, I was a kid so my focus was always shifting. But the point is that in terms of constructing my identity, they gave me the map and offered guidance, but left the navigation mainly up to me.
This is my point entirely - you aren't offering advice based on the OP's needs, you're answering based on how you were raised. My parents were hands-on, but that doesn't immediately equate to 'commanded' and 'indoctrinated'. They encouraged, guided and demonstrated. While I was a kid, I had a rule where I had to do an extracurricular activity... but I couldn't just drop it because it conflicted with my desire to watch TV. Different kinds of parents aren't bad, per se.
Personally, I've always found that forcing your child to be X (be it a religion, a sport, a concentration in school, a job, etc) is largely selfish on the parent and typically unhealthy for the child. Parents think they're doing the right thing, but when you get down to it they're denying their children the freedom of choice. Which isn't to say that kids always make the right choices, they don't. They don't even often make the right choices. But mistakes are just as important to personal growth and the freedom to make those mistakes is vital to a healthy upbringing.
Reality doesn't back you up - observing religious practices are proven to improve a person's sense of well-being and happiness. Parents who bring their children up to join with them in religious practices should be thought of as no different to parents who bring their kids up to sit at the same table as they do when they go out to dinner. Mistakes are super helpful when you're learning a computer game and losing a life isn't the end of the world. But in real life a person's ability to suffer mistakes and the consequences is a gradual thing. My point here is that choosing a religion isn't something you can just do, suffer from a mistake and just bounce around until you find something that suits you better. Its far better for parents to raise a kid, show them what living out a religious tradition looks like and let them make the decision whether or not to continue the tradition.
Some of those questions should be asked long before 18, and religion isn't a question a parent ought to ask at all, in my opinion. Religious choice ought to be made as an adult free of pressure and entirely upon one's own free will. Otherwise, it's not truly a decision of faith, is it?
All of those questions should be asked long before 18. Parents are called upon to raise their children with the same values that they hold (as an aside, how would you have them raise their child to be not like them? I would find it impossible to raise my child to be Hindu because I don't know how to do that. I also couldn't raise them as, say, someone who enjoys playing Monopoly). In Christianity, you make a promise to pass on your faith to the next generation.
Your question regarding a decision of faith is emphatically the wrong question. Its not a once-off, binary 'do I believe or do I not believe?', which you can ask once and once only. Its asked every day as a gradient: 'with everything I've seen in my life, can I continue to believe? How strongly can I hold on to my faith?'.
This is my point entirely - you aren't offering advice based on the OP's needs, you're answering based on how you were raised.
You may want to go back and read what I've posted. Up until now, when it was brought up by you, the only time I made a reference to child raising was as an example question for the OP about compromise (how he would balance his ideals of raising children with those of his hypothetical atheist wife). He can raise his children as he wishes, I'm not trying to deny him that, I'm merely saying that having it all his way isn't fair to his wife and likely not his children, either.
Otherwise, sure, I'm giving advice based on how I was raised. I was raised to believe that making unhealthy choices is typically a bad thing, and the OP is alluding to choices (a serious relationship with someone who doesn't share his overall belief structure) that he isn't prepared to enter into in a healthy way (healthy here being, in my opinion, an open mind and a willingness to respect and compromise).
Reality doesn't back you up - observing religious practices are proven to improve a person's sense of well-being and happiness.
Really, that honestly surprises me. In my experience, it's rare to find someone in my age group who found forced religious practices to be anything worthwhile. Most find it an annoyance and some go as far to be angry about it.
Of course, I'm of the opinion that the forcibly indoctrinated are of course going to say they have a greater sense of well-being and happiness, I don't think they know what they're missing. Of course, I don't exactly have a bright view of the disingenuously religious (my pet term for those who were forced into religion and only remain because they don't know any better or feel the familial pressure to continue). But that's really not the point here.
Parents who bring their children up to join with them in religious practices should be thought of as no different to parents who bring their kids up to sit at the same table as they do when they go out to dinner.
I think there's quite a huge difference in importance between the two. I understand your comparison, but I don't think the two are near equal. Could be a result of our different perspectives on spirituality. You seem to think of it as a hereditary family tradition whereas I believe it's a deeply personal choice that only an individual should make for themselves.
My point here is that choosing a religion isn't something you can just do, suffer from a mistake and just bounce around until you find something that suits you better. Its far better for parents to raise a kid, show them what living out a religious tradition looks like and let them make the decision whether or not to continue the tradition.
I'd agree if not for the fact that I feel this gives rise to far too many disingenuous religious people. If you're raised in a tradition, there's a definitive expectation that you'll continue that tradition lest you offend or disappoint your elders. And that sort of pressure does not lead to honest faith, it leads to habit and reluctant acquiescence. It's only the illusion of free will. And is that any way to make a personal spiritual choice? I don't think so.
Parents are called upon to raise their children with the same values that they hold
And I think this causes as many problems as it does successes.
as an aside, how would you have them raise their child to be not like them? I would find it impossible to raise my child to be Hindu because I don't know how to do that. I also couldn't raise them as, say, someone who enjoys playing Monopoly
My mother is Catholic and a staunch technophobe. I was raised to be neither. It really wasn't difficult.
In Christianity, you make a promise to pass on your faith to the next generation.
Which I feel denies that generation the fundamental right to have free choice over how to best express their spirituality. Pressuring the next generation into one path isn't in their best interests, it's in the parents'. I see it as selfish and unhealthy.
Which I feel denies that generation the fundamental right to have free choice over how to best express their spirituality. Pressuring the next generation into one path isn't in their best interests, it's in the parents'. I see it as selfish and unhealthy.
I married a woman that's of a difference race and belief system than I have. The cultural stuff sometimes you have to force it on them like a language in youth, I don't find certain skill sets not too terribly bad to pass on. I just consider that to be like a blue collar working teaching their child technical skills on how to fix something so they can do it for themselves in the future.
The religion thing I agree with though, especially when the child is older and developing their own belief system. Most Americans change their religion at least once in their life, this includes changing denominations. So I find teaching a child really any organized form of religion moot, but for adherents it can help but it won't necessarily make the child a "Roman Catholic" and instead if they become "Anglican."
The bigger issue I found was more of the "what to do about racial identity" and all that ☺☺☺☺. We just decided to teach them the traditions, let them sort out their identity over time. We've dealt with the racism issue already while they were young and explaining the history of it in the states and generically with the world. I'm certain the "identity thing" will pop up later during their teen years, but with the amount of bi-racial children and interracial adoptions I'm seeing today I don't believe it'll be much as much of an issue as it used to be. However, that's something they'll be forced to deal with rather than something they can opt into or out of.
Overall, if you're married to "someone different" than you in a lot of ways, my best advice is ask a lot of questions, set your boundaries, and be very open minded and very flexible. Children complicate things, and depending if you win the environmental and genetic lottery and get a low maintenance kid there can still be random things like sexual orientation that can toss your belief system for a loop.
So if this some sort of "checklist" thing that a lot of youth fall into, get out of it. I threw the rule book out a long time ago and never looked back and did everything at my own pace. Sometimes if you enter a career, it's sometimes a good idea to wait a while on family until you're in your thirties. Women can still reproduce without increased health risk to 35ish and really up to 40ish, and you won't go through andropause until your 50's but can still be able to produce sperm that can fertilize from now till doomsday.
Just find a good woman, save your money, and don't have kids too early or too late. I'd advise for someone in your generation to really think about having one child because of the future economic situation of this country. Not so much from a "oh my this recession is going to destroy us," but from the point of view that wages have been stagnant and there's not as many middle class jobs as there used to be. Economic agility is good. Hypothetically, you could be a millionaire within ten years if you were shrewd with money and made damn good investments which is another plus to holding off on children or having one child.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Which I feel denies that generation the fundamental right to have free choice over how to best express their spirituality. Pressuring the next generation into one path isn't in their best interests, it's in the parents'. I see it as selfish and unhealthy.
I don't understand why this would be selfishly motivated on the parent's part; isn't that an assumption of their motivations? After all, most world religions, Christian or otherwise, teach some form of paradise for its followers, and some form of hell for those who don't believe. If a parent genuinely believes in such an afterlife, I could understand viewing them as misguided. But, I wouldn't call them selfish, if they genuinely believed in heaven/hell and wanted their offspring to go to the former rather than the latter.
Back on topic, race is something I do worry about, for our children. They're going to be half-Korean/half-white, growing up in China AND in the US. I'm not terribly worried about their acceptance/identity in terms of life in the States. But, China is far more racially homogenous than the US is, and while I'm not terrified, I am concerned about how they will adapt.
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After all, most world religions, Christian or otherwise, teach some form of paradise for its followers, and some form of hell for those who don't believe.
Actually, not all religions are the same.
Some religions say that everyone will go to heaven.
Hinduism and Buddhism say that we are in a cycle of reincarnation. Ultimately your goal is to reach release from samsara (the cycle of reincarnation) but it is not so transcendently important to be a Hindu or a Buddhist - they aren't the only ways to move towards enlightenment, and you may still make progress even if you don't achieve your goal in this life.
Other religions don't have an afterlife or reincarnation at all.
@MikeyG: Do you think using the word 'indoctrination' might be a little bit much? I agree that the OP is making some bad decisions (assuming the worst in his girlfriend before bringing up these questions, asking the internet before talking to his girlfriend, asking us at all... :P), but 'indoctrination' is a word that doesn't really fit in when you're talking about any religion, right up until someone offers you kool-aid.
Similarly, is passing on religion an inherently selfish act?
If you say that indoctrination is just a word you want to use, I won't contest your right to use it. If you say that passing on a religion is the action of selfish or narrow-minded individual, I'll disagree and as an added bonus I won't even try to change your mind or convert you. But if you or anyone else in this thread is strongly opposed to religion, why offer advice to this person on how to marry someone he cares about while staying true to his beliefs? These are the things I'm worried about.
(As a post-script, I'd like to add that I have nothing but respect and good feelings for you, your belief system, your willingness to participate in this conversational aside with me, your awesome and terrifying admin powers and that if I've come off as confrontational or in any way negative, its not my intention)
If it is something serious then I am sure you will work this out. If it doesn't, then it just doesn't. Plain and simple.
If she accepts your beliefs and the way you are and whatnot, then good.
If you accept what she believes or doesn't believe and whatnot, then good.
This is all that matters here, if one person contradicts the others beliefs, then it will be war, depending if YOU or HER want to spit back until one wins. Relationships are always about understanding the other person. There is no point for it to go on if the understanding discontinues.
As for your parents, you must have the strength in your heart to tell them you are in love with an atheist. If they don't like it, then it's up to you whether you want to be real and keep your lovemate or stay in the restraints of your religion.
And for the children, let them believe what they want. Guide them and teach them right. That's all that matters.
Some religions say that everyone will go to heaven.
Hinduism and Buddhism say that we are in a cycle of reincarnation. Ultimately your goal is to reach release from samsara (the cycle of reincarnation) but it is not so transcendently important to be a Hindu or a Buddhist - they aren't the only ways to move towards enlightenment, and you may still make progress even if you don't achieve your goal in this life.
Other religions don't have an afterlife or reincarnation at all.
I should clarify: by "world religions" I meant the "bigger" ones, namely Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism.
The "Abrahamic" faiths have their versions of Heaven/Hell, and while I realize it is not a perfect translation, I equated Nirvana/Samsara as the Buddhist/Hindu Heaven/Hell.
My main point was that it should be no surprise that genuine practitioners of these faiths would want their children to spend eternity in Heaven/reach Nirvana/etc, rather than Hell/remain in Samsara etc, and that it shouldn't be viewed as selfish for them to want that for their children.
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I married a woman that's of a difference race and belief system than I have. The cultural stuff sometimes you have to force it on them like a language in youth, I don't find certain skill sets not too terribly bad to pass on. I just consider that to be like a blue collar working teaching their child technical skills on how to fix something so they can do it for themselves in the future.
The religion thing I agree with though, especially when the child is older and developing their own belief system. Most Americans change their religion at least once in their life, this includes changing denominations. So I find teaching a child really any organized form of religion moot, but for adherents it can help but it won't necessarily make the child a "Roman Catholic" and instead if they become "Anglican."
The bigger issue I found was more of the "what to do about racial identity" and all that ☺☺☺☺. We just decided to teach them the traditions, let them sort out their identity over time. We've dealt with the racism issue already while they were young and explaining the history of it in the states and generically with the world. I'm certain the "identity thing" will pop up later during their teen years, but with the amount of bi-racial children and interracial adoptions I'm seeing today I don't believe it'll be much as much of an issue as it used to be. However, that's something they'll be forced to deal with rather than something they can opt into or out of.
I feel that teaching skills is different from education of racial background which is different from instilling a set of religious beliefs. "These are skills you may find useful and/or may teach you to appreciate particular values", "This is where your parents come from and these are the cultural traditions we each grew up with", "These are the religious beliefs that you will believe in."
A skillset isn't a fundamental part of a person's identity, so imparting that in a critical way leaves the child to do with the information what they will. Race (and culture that goes along with that) is a fundamental part of an identity, but it isn't a choice. As you say, they can't opt out and it's something they have to deal with, so educating them on it is healthy. But telling them what to believe in a non-critical way is, I believe, at best a misguided act and at worst unhealthy in a child's development of self.
I don't understand why this would be selfishly motivated on the parent's part; isn't that an assumption of their motivations? After all, most world religions, Christian or otherwise, teach some form of paradise for its followers, and some form of hell for those who don't believe. If a parent genuinely believes in such an afterlife, I could understand viewing them as misguided. But, I wouldn't call them selfish, if they genuinely believed in heaven/hell and wanted their offspring to go to the former rather than the latter.
Selfish may have been an inaccurate term to use. Presumptuous and egocentric are perhaps better.
"The form of spirituality I believe in will work for you and it's what you'll believe in."
Look, I don't believe that parents indoctrinating their kids is negatively motivated, far from it. I just feel that those motivations are misguided and aren't strictly in the best interests of a child. Just the same as stage parents pushing their kids into pageants, or fathers who force their sons to play football cuz dad was QB1 when he was 17, or parents who expect their kids to go to certain schools and take specific degrees and take on a prescribed career. At some point, a parent isn't doing what's best for their kid, they're just trying to control who their kids are and what will become of their lives.
@MikeyG: Do you think using the word 'indoctrination' might be a little bit much? I agree that the OP is making some bad decisions (assuming the worst in his girlfriend before bringing up these questions, asking the internet before talking to his girlfriend, asking us at all... :P), but 'indoctrination' is a word that doesn't really fit in when you're talking about any religion, right up until someone offers you kool-aid.
Nope, indoctrination is exactly what it is. Forcing a particular methodology, idea or attitude onto a person in a non-critical way. The key qualifiers here are the lack of choice in the matter and the non-critical way the beliefs are presented.
Similarly, is passing on religion an inherently selfish act?
Again, I don't think my verbiage presented my opinion in a clear enough way. Passing on religion in the way we're discussing (not just educating a child and allowing them to formulate their own opinions, but in fact actively imbuing them with a belief set) is inherently presumptuous and egocentric.
But if you or anyone else in this thread is strongly opposed to religion, why offer advice to this person on how to marry someone he cares about while staying true to his beliefs? These are the things I'm worried about.
It's not that I'm opposed to religion in general (I personally do not find value in organized religion, but I have no issue with those that do), what I'm opposed to is the removal of choice in the matter. And not just with children, remember I also had problems with the idea that the OP's hypothetical atheist wife would have to submit to his ideals of marriage and family. One can stay true to their beliefs without forcing them upon those around him. And if he can't, he should reconsider those he surrounds himself with.
(As a post-script, I'd like to add that I have nothing but respect and good feelings for you, your belief system, your willingness to participate in this conversational aside with me, your awesome and terrifying admin powers and that if I've come off as confrontational or in any way negative, its not my intention)
I dated a Christian girl once, it yust doesn't work.
Honostly, when your father and mother-in law tell you that you will burn in the flames of Hell when i don't accept Christ, you get ticked.
Also they don't care that you burn there for all eternity, since it's your fault.
Having a relationship and knowing that one half of the relatioship is fine with it's significant other suffering for all eternity is not a relationship te begin with.
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“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.” —Volrath
Seriously. Why is religion so important? Yeah I go to the church three times a year or something like that. I believe there is a force bigger than us all. But why do you have to make your children go to the church and make them believe in god.
I mean the atheist person is atheist because she doesn't care about religion.
Why do you have to make her accept the religion. Is not like your kids will stay Christian forever if they don't want to.
I have a friend. He goes to the church every Saturday. He is a religious person. But he doesn't care about God or parying or stuff like that. He cares just about the Spiritual learning. Like "You have to love all the people." It's important to teach your children about what's good and bad but you don't have to hammered them in the head with "Fear God because He is almighty" or stuff like that.
You should ask your girlfriend about this and try to talk to her.
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When did this girl become his "girlfriend"? It was my understanding the topic was the OP worried about "asking out" one of his female friends. We're operating on them actually getting together and proceeding down the marriage trail, but noone has noted the difficulty in getting to that point when you don't share a common theology. Usually around the 3rd/4th date it comes up, and by that point you're just getting comfortable with the person, and you're beginning to build stake in them as potentially being more than just some person you went to dinner with a few times. If you drop a bomb like "oh yea, so you're atheist? That has to change. Our children need to be schooled in the ways of Christ eternal" you're not going to see that girl again. My best suggestion is to not make a big deal about it, don't think about the future outcome, think about now. If you scare her off by talking about the religious impacts of the future, you'll have worried about them for nothing. Take everything in steps. "Oh, you're atheist? I consider myself a pretty devout christian." and then leave it at that. If theres a problem she'll bring it up for you.
While I'm not married yet, I have had several conversations with my fiancee about raising children and their religious affiliation.
What ended up working for us was the agreement to have our children baptized, but anything past that is strictly their decision. As they grow up, and have questions, I will be there to answer them with my views, and my future wife would be there to explain hers. The actual decision to be Catholic, atheist, or whatever would be purely up to them. The reason we've agreed to this is simple, my fiancee wants our children to have the opportunity to completely build their own identity, and I, as a devout Christian, believe that there one must have complete free will to truly appreciate and have faith. Nothing good comes from forcing someone, be it your child or wife, into converting because that violates one of the core concepts of Christianity, which is pure and personal faith.
Again, the only problems that can come from a inter-faith relationship are disrespect and intolerance from either partner. As long as you two can love and respect each other, then there shouldn't be a problem.
If you are involved in your church, especially if you are meeting with other parishes, you will be criticized if/when it comes out. So long as you can put up with that and keep an open mind about the religious upbringing of the kids, you'll be fine.
To be fair, there's a vast number of bad things that happen because of waiting, especially if you want to have kids.
You're right, you never explicitly said it was about you. But, it certainly seems evident in the tone of your posts.
And, the concept of sacrificing yourself for her sake, literally or figuratively, shouldn't start "once you are married". That should be part-and-parcel of your mindset before you reach the altar, if this girl matters to you.
As to the question regarding conflicting religions: I'm not sure what you're looking for here, it sounds like you've answered your own question.
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Which I don't believe justify rushing into things in the first place. If you're entering into something like this, it really should be for the right reasons.
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I believe thats incorrect of people to do. While its true, that you can love somebody you cannot force your religious beliefs upon them. Does she want her husband to go to "Heaven" im sure she does. But its not her actions that will get him there, it is his.
He could still go to church, eff up and not end up in heaven. Overall I just feel its wrong that somebody that promotes "love, charity, peace, and respect" would stoop as low as to criticize somebody because that person does not believe in the same things as they.
@OP : Buddy don't let other people control the way you want to do stuff in life. You are the owner of your life and yours alone... do what you feel is right and stick by it.
Ok, what is this rush to get married?
In addition to the "waste of time and resources" bit still being very disconcerting, how much of all of this is based off of your parents' expectations?
This isn't possible.
I completely agree.
You'd be surprised, I talked to one guy that said, "If you don't believe in Christ, your going to hell"
Just like that.
I was like really?, then threw a whole skew of scriptural references that deny his claim, then he proceeded on stating that I would go to hell.
Apparently the only requirement for heavem is just believing in Christ. heck you don't even have to be baptized... which doesn't make any sense according to scripture...
so yea... I just don't understand some sects.
Oh, that I agree with. I just feel that if one isn't ready for an action, clearly it's best not to take it. Even if there's no clear perfect time to take these leaps, there are clear wrong times.
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Edit: this is wicked scatterbrained. fixed it a little.
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@Everyone else: Be aware of how much you're deriving your views from your personal bias while you're helping this guy decide how he's going to navigate through life. I'm referring to concepts like "don't force your kids to be Christian, wait until much later" and this fanciful notion that children are equipped to construct themselves from the ground up.
You don't wait until a kid is 18 before you ask "do you want to play the piano", or "do you want to play your dad's favourite sport", or "do you want to learn to read?" or even "hey son, how about I teach you to play Magic?". In the same way, you don't wait until they're 18 before you ask them about religion or 'who they want to be' - at that age they're entirely victim to the whims of their peers.
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Why not, I did. My parents were largely hands-off. They instilled in me basic standards (honestly, self-reliance, confidence, etc), but left almost everything else up to me. They encouraged and guided, not commanded and indoctrinated. While I was a kid, they had a rule where I had to enroll in an extracurricular activity, what it was was entirely up to me, but I had to do something. Sometimes it was a sport, sometimes it was a course or learning workshop, I was a kid so my focus was always shifting. But the point is that in terms of constructing my identity, they gave me the map and offered guidance, but left the navigation mainly up to me.
Personally, I've always found that forcing your child to be X (be it a religion, a sport, a concentration in school, a job, etc) is largely selfish on the parent and typically unhealthy for the child. Parents think they're doing the right thing, but when you get down to it they're denying their children the freedom of choice. Which isn't to say that kids always make the right choices, they don't. They don't even often make the right choices. But mistakes are just as important to personal growth and the freedom to make those mistakes is vital to a healthy upbringing.
Some of those questions should be asked long before 18, and religion isn't a question a parent ought to ask at all, in my opinion. Religious choice ought to be made as an adult free of pressure and entirely upon one's own free will. Otherwise, it's not truly a decision of faith, is it?
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This is my point entirely - you aren't offering advice based on the OP's needs, you're answering based on how you were raised. My parents were hands-on, but that doesn't immediately equate to 'commanded' and 'indoctrinated'. They encouraged, guided and demonstrated. While I was a kid, I had a rule where I had to do an extracurricular activity... but I couldn't just drop it because it conflicted with my desire to watch TV. Different kinds of parents aren't bad, per se.
Reality doesn't back you up - observing religious practices are proven to improve a person's sense of well-being and happiness. Parents who bring their children up to join with them in religious practices should be thought of as no different to parents who bring their kids up to sit at the same table as they do when they go out to dinner. Mistakes are super helpful when you're learning a computer game and losing a life isn't the end of the world. But in real life a person's ability to suffer mistakes and the consequences is a gradual thing. My point here is that choosing a religion isn't something you can just do, suffer from a mistake and just bounce around until you find something that suits you better. Its far better for parents to raise a kid, show them what living out a religious tradition looks like and let them make the decision whether or not to continue the tradition.
All of those questions should be asked long before 18. Parents are called upon to raise their children with the same values that they hold (as an aside, how would you have them raise their child to be not like them? I would find it impossible to raise my child to be Hindu because I don't know how to do that. I also couldn't raise them as, say, someone who enjoys playing Monopoly). In Christianity, you make a promise to pass on your faith to the next generation.
Your question regarding a decision of faith is emphatically the wrong question. Its not a once-off, binary 'do I believe or do I not believe?', which you can ask once and once only. Its asked every day as a gradient: 'with everything I've seen in my life, can I continue to believe? How strongly can I hold on to my faith?'.
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You may want to go back and read what I've posted. Up until now, when it was brought up by you, the only time I made a reference to child raising was as an example question for the OP about compromise (how he would balance his ideals of raising children with those of his hypothetical atheist wife). He can raise his children as he wishes, I'm not trying to deny him that, I'm merely saying that having it all his way isn't fair to his wife and likely not his children, either.
Otherwise, sure, I'm giving advice based on how I was raised. I was raised to believe that making unhealthy choices is typically a bad thing, and the OP is alluding to choices (a serious relationship with someone who doesn't share his overall belief structure) that he isn't prepared to enter into in a healthy way (healthy here being, in my opinion, an open mind and a willingness to respect and compromise).
Really, that honestly surprises me. In my experience, it's rare to find someone in my age group who found forced religious practices to be anything worthwhile. Most find it an annoyance and some go as far to be angry about it.
Of course, I'm of the opinion that the forcibly indoctrinated are of course going to say they have a greater sense of well-being and happiness, I don't think they know what they're missing. Of course, I don't exactly have a bright view of the disingenuously religious (my pet term for those who were forced into religion and only remain because they don't know any better or feel the familial pressure to continue). But that's really not the point here.
I think there's quite a huge difference in importance between the two. I understand your comparison, but I don't think the two are near equal. Could be a result of our different perspectives on spirituality. You seem to think of it as a hereditary family tradition whereas I believe it's a deeply personal choice that only an individual should make for themselves.
I'd agree if not for the fact that I feel this gives rise to far too many disingenuous religious people. If you're raised in a tradition, there's a definitive expectation that you'll continue that tradition lest you offend or disappoint your elders. And that sort of pressure does not lead to honest faith, it leads to habit and reluctant acquiescence. It's only the illusion of free will. And is that any way to make a personal spiritual choice? I don't think so.
And I think this causes as many problems as it does successes.
My mother is Catholic and a staunch technophobe. I was raised to be neither. It really wasn't difficult.
Which I feel denies that generation the fundamental right to have free choice over how to best express their spirituality. Pressuring the next generation into one path isn't in their best interests, it's in the parents'. I see it as selfish and unhealthy.
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I married a woman that's of a difference race and belief system than I have. The cultural stuff sometimes you have to force it on them like a language in youth, I don't find certain skill sets not too terribly bad to pass on. I just consider that to be like a blue collar working teaching their child technical skills on how to fix something so they can do it for themselves in the future.
The religion thing I agree with though, especially when the child is older and developing their own belief system. Most Americans change their religion at least once in their life, this includes changing denominations. So I find teaching a child really any organized form of religion moot, but for adherents it can help but it won't necessarily make the child a "Roman Catholic" and instead if they become "Anglican."
The bigger issue I found was more of the "what to do about racial identity" and all that ☺☺☺☺. We just decided to teach them the traditions, let them sort out their identity over time. We've dealt with the racism issue already while they were young and explaining the history of it in the states and generically with the world. I'm certain the "identity thing" will pop up later during their teen years, but with the amount of bi-racial children and interracial adoptions I'm seeing today I don't believe it'll be much as much of an issue as it used to be. However, that's something they'll be forced to deal with rather than something they can opt into or out of.
Overall, if you're married to "someone different" than you in a lot of ways, my best advice is ask a lot of questions, set your boundaries, and be very open minded and very flexible. Children complicate things, and depending if you win the environmental and genetic lottery and get a low maintenance kid there can still be random things like sexual orientation that can toss your belief system for a loop.
So if this some sort of "checklist" thing that a lot of youth fall into, get out of it. I threw the rule book out a long time ago and never looked back and did everything at my own pace. Sometimes if you enter a career, it's sometimes a good idea to wait a while on family until you're in your thirties. Women can still reproduce without increased health risk to 35ish and really up to 40ish, and you won't go through andropause until your 50's but can still be able to produce sperm that can fertilize from now till doomsday.
Just find a good woman, save your money, and don't have kids too early or too late. I'd advise for someone in your generation to really think about having one child because of the future economic situation of this country. Not so much from a "oh my this recession is going to destroy us," but from the point of view that wages have been stagnant and there's not as many middle class jobs as there used to be. Economic agility is good. Hypothetically, you could be a millionaire within ten years if you were shrewd with money and made damn good investments which is another plus to holding off on children or having one child.
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I don't understand why this would be selfishly motivated on the parent's part; isn't that an assumption of their motivations? After all, most world religions, Christian or otherwise, teach some form of paradise for its followers, and some form of hell for those who don't believe. If a parent genuinely believes in such an afterlife, I could understand viewing them as misguided. But, I wouldn't call them selfish, if they genuinely believed in heaven/hell and wanted their offspring to go to the former rather than the latter.
@Captain_Morgan: Glad you brought up race. I'm an Asian guy, married to a caucasian girl (technically half-middle eastern, to really muddy things up). I'm one of the few asian men to have achieved 40 on this list!: http://www.asian-central.com/stuffasianpeoplelike/2008/03/19/40-white-girls/
Back on topic, race is something I do worry about, for our children. They're going to be half-Korean/half-white, growing up in China AND in the US. I'm not terribly worried about their acceptance/identity in terms of life in the States. But, China is far more racially homogenous than the US is, and while I'm not terrified, I am concerned about how they will adapt.
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Some religions say that everyone will go to heaven.
Hinduism and Buddhism say that we are in a cycle of reincarnation. Ultimately your goal is to reach release from samsara (the cycle of reincarnation) but it is not so transcendently important to be a Hindu or a Buddhist - they aren't the only ways to move towards enlightenment, and you may still make progress even if you don't achieve your goal in this life.
Other religions don't have an afterlife or reincarnation at all.
Similarly, is passing on religion an inherently selfish act?
If you say that indoctrination is just a word you want to use, I won't contest your right to use it. If you say that passing on a religion is the action of selfish or narrow-minded individual, I'll disagree and as an added bonus I won't even try to change your mind or convert you. But if you or anyone else in this thread is strongly opposed to religion, why offer advice to this person on how to marry someone he cares about while staying true to his beliefs? These are the things I'm worried about.
(As a post-script, I'd like to add that I have nothing but respect and good feelings for you, your belief system, your willingness to participate in this conversational aside with me, your awesome and terrifying admin powers and that if I've come off as confrontational or in any way negative, its not my intention)
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If she accepts your beliefs and the way you are and whatnot, then good.
If you accept what she believes or doesn't believe and whatnot, then good.
This is all that matters here, if one person contradicts the others beliefs, then it will be war, depending if YOU or HER want to spit back until one wins. Relationships are always about understanding the other person. There is no point for it to go on if the understanding discontinues.
As for your parents, you must have the strength in your heart to tell them you are in love with an atheist. If they don't like it, then it's up to you whether you want to be real and keep your lovemate or stay in the restraints of your religion.
And for the children, let them believe what they want. Guide them and teach them right. That's all that matters.
I should clarify: by "world religions" I meant the "bigger" ones, namely Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism.
The "Abrahamic" faiths have their versions of Heaven/Hell, and while I realize it is not a perfect translation, I equated Nirvana/Samsara as the Buddhist/Hindu Heaven/Hell.
My main point was that it should be no surprise that genuine practitioners of these faiths would want their children to spend eternity in Heaven/reach Nirvana/etc, rather than Hell/remain in Samsara etc, and that it shouldn't be viewed as selfish for them to want that for their children.
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I feel that teaching skills is different from education of racial background which is different from instilling a set of religious beliefs. "These are skills you may find useful and/or may teach you to appreciate particular values", "This is where your parents come from and these are the cultural traditions we each grew up with", "These are the religious beliefs that you will believe in."
A skillset isn't a fundamental part of a person's identity, so imparting that in a critical way leaves the child to do with the information what they will. Race (and culture that goes along with that) is a fundamental part of an identity, but it isn't a choice. As you say, they can't opt out and it's something they have to deal with, so educating them on it is healthy. But telling them what to believe in a non-critical way is, I believe, at best a misguided act and at worst unhealthy in a child's development of self.
Selfish may have been an inaccurate term to use. Presumptuous and egocentric are perhaps better.
"The form of spirituality I believe in will work for you and it's what you'll believe in."
Look, I don't believe that parents indoctrinating their kids is negatively motivated, far from it. I just feel that those motivations are misguided and aren't strictly in the best interests of a child. Just the same as stage parents pushing their kids into pageants, or fathers who force their sons to play football cuz dad was QB1 when he was 17, or parents who expect their kids to go to certain schools and take specific degrees and take on a prescribed career. At some point, a parent isn't doing what's best for their kid, they're just trying to control who their kids are and what will become of their lives.
Which is, if you've been following me, unhealthy.
Nope, indoctrination is exactly what it is. Forcing a particular methodology, idea or attitude onto a person in a non-critical way. The key qualifiers here are the lack of choice in the matter and the non-critical way the beliefs are presented.
Again, I don't think my verbiage presented my opinion in a clear enough way. Passing on religion in the way we're discussing (not just educating a child and allowing them to formulate their own opinions, but in fact actively imbuing them with a belief set) is inherently presumptuous and egocentric.
It's not that I'm opposed to religion in general (I personally do not find value in organized religion, but I have no issue with those that do), what I'm opposed to is the removal of choice in the matter. And not just with children, remember I also had problems with the idea that the OP's hypothetical atheist wife would have to submit to his ideals of marriage and family. One can stay true to their beliefs without forcing them upon those around him. And if he can't, he should reconsider those he surrounds himself with.
No harm, no foul.
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Honostly, when your father and mother-in law tell you that you will burn in the flames of Hell when i don't accept Christ, you get ticked.
Also they don't care that you burn there for all eternity, since it's your fault.
Having a relationship and knowing that one half of the relatioship is fine with it's significant other suffering for all eternity is not a relationship te begin with.
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I mean the atheist person is atheist because she doesn't care about religion.
Why do you have to make her accept the religion. Is not like your kids will stay Christian forever if they don't want to.
I have a friend. He goes to the church every Saturday. He is a religious person. But he doesn't care about God or parying or stuff like that. He cares just about the Spiritual learning. Like "You have to love all the people." It's important to teach your children about what's good and bad but you don't have to hammered them in the head with "Fear God because He is almighty" or stuff like that.
You should ask your girlfriend about this and try to talk to her.
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