You know what, I'm just going to do this preemptively because I know people are going to jerk their knees again and totally miss the point yet again:
The idea of this is that it's the suicidal person asserting the thesis that their suicide is rational and so on, and the person questioning them trying to convince them not to. The only difference is my version involves actual logic and doesn't discount out of hand the rationality of a potential suicide. It's easy to spout stupid clichés. Actually discussing it rationally takes effort, and people don't want to put effort into it. Also:
Just for the record, my meaning and purpose is that I only get one life and there's nothing before or after it, so I might as well make it count and not totally screw (what's left of it) up. The thought of "needing" something "greater" to give me purpose simply doesn't make sense—the closest actual rational explanation I can come up with for such a "need" involves the anthropic principle, and you know nothing good can come of that.
I am just going to quote this post because quoting all of your posts is far too much work.
You have approached this thread with complete arrogance and a supposed omniscience.
It is frustrating to read your posts.
As Kraken said; you have successfully provided a viewpoint of a person who could best be described as atheistic. In that sense you have been helpful.
Your complete dismissal of everything in which you do not believe is exasperating as you have even admitted yourself that you cannot prove there is no God, or Gods, etc. Much as I cannot prove that there is a God. The certainty that you approach every viewpoint you provide is stunning in its absoluteness. I cannot fathom that you are an expert in the many arenas that have been discussed here.
Further your attitude, as evidenced by calling those who disagree with you "kids", as well as supposing the mental health history of another poster here, is unfortunate to say the least. It adds no validity to your arguments to be as hostile as you have been.
No one here has claimed to have empirical evidence that there is a God. Yet you seem to be frustrated by the fact that people strongly believe that there is, much as you believe that there is not.
Before you go assuming anything about me, let me inform you about my theological self:
I am a Christian. I practice my faith very strongly under the ideology of not focusing on the speck in another's eye when there is a plank in my own. In layman's terms, I treat my belief as a personal walk with God. I am happy to share with people what that walk means to me IF they ask. I do not presume to know what another person should be doing with their life, nor do I assume anything about their day to day life, their afterlife or anything that, frankly, is not my business.
I have taken several academic university classes on religion, history of religion, theology, etc. These classes have been instrumental with my personal beliefs and have been taught by an Agnostic, an Atheist, two Christians and a Muslim.
It is painfully obvious that you have never experienced a real freedom in Christ, but you are simply weighing out the rational lines. There is nothing wrong with that, but no one who has experienced true deliverance thinks about abandoning thier faith,
Jesus said "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it."
You have no way of knowing if Jesus said that. You have a claim by a human that Jesus had said that decades earlier. On top of that you have a claim by a human that the previous claim is unerringly true. Those human claims may or may not be mistaken. We have no words directly from Jesus, just what later people claim he said.
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You have approached this thread with complete arrogance and a supposed omniscience.
It is frustrating to read your posts.
You know, that's exactly how I'd describe every single person whose approach to these problems has been to say, "You just need to pray harder."
And I'm fine being an arrogant ***** as long as I keep my objectivity and don't stray off into atheistic proselytizing, which as far as I've gone in this thread I haven't. In fact, I've said numerous times that, honestly, the OP keeping his religion may indeed be the best course of action (and conversely that the theists aren't quite so magnanimous as to suggest openly that the reverse may be true).
As Kraken said; you have successfully provided a viewpoint of a person who could best be described as atheistic.
I'm curious what you mean by "at best" atheistic. What would the "at worst" option be?
Your complete dismissal of everything in which you do not believe is exasperating as you have even admitted yourself that you cannot prove there is no God, or Gods, etc. Much as I cannot prove that there is a God. The certainty that you approach every viewpoint you provide is stunning in its absoluteness.
The theistic side approaches it with just as much if not more certainty, I assure you. At the very least, I'm not spouting unscientific mumbo-jumbo about "spirit, mind, and body" as if that has anything to do with real problems in the real world.
I cannot fathom that you are an expert in the many arenas that have been discussed here.
Don't let my age fool you. I've got a lot of experiences in a lot of disparate areas.
You know, that's exactly how I'd describe every single person whose approach to these problems has been to say, "You just need to pray harder."
And you are certainly entitled to that opinion. I would argue, however, that none have so consistently been as aggressive or absolute as you have been in this thread.
And I'm fine being an arrogant ***** as long as I keep my objectivity and don't stray off into atheistic proselytizing, which as far as I've gone in this thread I haven't. In fact, I've said numerous times that, honestly, the OP keeping his religion may indeed be the best course of action (and conversely that the theists aren't quite so magnanimous as to suggest openly that the reverse may be true).
Just for the record, that is a name you have chosen for yourself, I have not said it, or implied it, nor do I endorse it. As for keeping your objectivity, I am not certain you have accomplished that. Much of what you have posted has been subjective.
I'm curious what you mean by "at best" atheistic. What would the "at worst" option be?
I never said "at best" in reference to your religious ideologies. I said "best be described as". I don't believe that you have specifically stated that you are an atheist, so I chose not to identify your beliefs with certainty. Instead I said, as mentioned, "best be described as" so as to avoid speaking for you.
The theistic side approaches it with just as much if not more certainty, I assure you. At the very least, I'm not spouting unscientific mumbo-jumbo about "spirit, mind, and body" as if that has anything to do with real problems in the real world
Don't let my age fool you. I've got a lot of experiences in a lot of disparate areas.
I also never said a thing about your age, which I have no clue what it may be. I wouldn't even hazard a guess at this point. I said that you referred to those who disagreed with you as "kids", which is true. I also said that I cannot fathom that you would be an expert in the wide variety of disciplines that you have tackled with absoluteness in this thread.
I have no doubt that you have had a lot of experience in a lot of disparate areas, but I still do not believe that you could possibly be an expert in all of them.
I tend to be fairly subtle when actually saying these kinds of things about myself, I admit, and only wind up saying it once or twice and even then not very loudly.
I'm doing pretty good myself. Still battling through depression on most days, but that's just normal for me due to loneliness.
I know what you are going through because i have been there myself. It isn't a pretty place to be, but you know what helped was finding a good nondemoninational church. it should be easy as more and keep popping up.
surrounding yourself with like minded people helps.
I think the stepping back and trying my best to think objectively has helped me realize a few things. But I know my journey has just begun, and I still have a lot of theistic and logical reading to do.
But as I feel right now, I know in my heart I believe in a God. Either that or I have to consider that I may be insane. As I have had conversations with this being within myself. And I have received answers that I normally never thought of or considered through my own mind, so I'm not sure entirely how that works into any gray area of thinking beyond saying either I'm crazy or there's a deity or spirit talking to me.
Every christian goes through this. It is something that has been around for a while. truth devotion and prayer will light the way.
read the 21st psalm. yea though i walk through the valley of the shadow of death i will fear no evil for thou are with me. they rod and thy staff they comfort me.
death in the verse is but a shadow and where there is light no shadow can exist.
Do I believe in everything a part of the Christian doctrine? I don't believe I can. There's too many inconsistencies and philosophies that I believe to be outdated or contradictory to my personal beliefs. And if I am required to believe in absolutely everything the Bible tells me, I don't think I can objectively agree with that.
you have to remember the times in which they were written and put that into context. not everything that happened back then is the same as it is now.
I continue to consider myself a non-denominational Christian and subscribe to the ideology of Jesus as best as I can. But I follow my own path. I still have a lot of research to do, and if I find that there is a way that I can live with my own personal interpretation of God, then that will obviously be ideal. But if I find that it would be more beneficial for me to reject the idea of God altogether, then I suppose I will be visiting my nearest mental health facility to be evaluated for schizophrenia. lol.
Awkward, isn't it?
i am non-denominational and i have been for a while now even though i was raise baptist. the only way to find information is by study and asking questions.
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Yes, and that fact is very obvious to everyone reading this thread.
Normally I wouldn't care, I would be more than happy to let someone who's basically decided that being a douche is going to be their primary contribution to this forum go ahead, except for the fact I do care in this particular thread because we're not discussing something inane. This is a thread started by someone who has been suicidal who finds himself at a crossroads in life and has reached out because he is conflicted in what to think about life and belief. And all you've done in this thread is do everything you can to derail it and make it all about you. You're attention whoring in a thread in which someone is actually asking for help.
That shows a dearth of character. And it's unfortunate.
But yet I've given him very solid advice and have put a lot of effort into pointing out when people have been harmfully misguided in trying to help him—make no mistake, I've done little to nothing directly to shift this thread's focus onto me (people want to argue, sure, I'll dance, but I'm not leading the dance this time). Arrogant *****, yes. Attention whore, no.
But yet I've given him very solid advice and have put a lot of effort into pointing out when people have been harmfully misguided in trying to help him—make no mistake, I've done little to nothing directly to shift this thread's focus onto me (people want to argue, sure, I'll dance, but I'm not leading the dance this time). Arrogant *****, yes. Attention whore, no.
You are utterly self-absorbed and conceited, with an arrogance that prevents you from understanding that what you profess to be wisdom is rooted in presumption.
Meanwhile, Kraken is a person trying to break out of a shell of destructive self-centeredness.
Maybe something in you might actually recognize that you are exactly the wrong person to be in this thread. It's certainly not going to be easy for you, Desolation Angel did a good job knocking you right royally off your high horse, but you didn't take that for the lesson that it was and continued right on as you were before. But I'm holding out on the idea that there's a part of you that isn't completely self-centered enough to recognize this.
So you're basically calling me this. That's kinda cool. I approve.
And for the record, what Desolation Angel did was attempt to impress a set of values regarding suicide upon me that quite frankly weren't any better than my own.
And also for the record, my atheistic viewpoint is precisely what the OP needs. I don't believe in circle-jerks where everyone reinforces the same message to the point of absurdity. If his religious beliefs are to be challenged, then they should be challenged properly. The difference between us, as always, is that I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong (about the OP's faith, that is). You don't seem to be.
So you're basically calling me this. That's kinda cool. I approve.
And for the record, what Desolation Angel did was attempt to impress a set of values regarding suicide upon me that quite frankly weren't any better than my own.
And also for the record, my atheistic viewpoint is precisely what the OP needs. I don't believe in circle-jerks where everyone reinforces the same message to the point of absurdity. If his religious beliefs are to be challenged, then they should be challenged properly. The difference between us, as always, is that I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong (about the OP's faith, that is). You don't seem to be.
Unless you have been close to suicide or understand what a person is thinking then well you really can't comment on it. It is a different way of thinking all together. It isn't rational.
you haven't excepted that fact that you are wrong yet so how you can make this statement is beyond me.
The OP is looking for affirmation not condemnation on his beliefs. Unfortuantly he has lead himself down a false path in the bible. He needs to be pointed back to the correct path. that takes time.
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Unless you have been close to suicide or understand what a person is thinking then well you really can't comment on it. It is a different way of thinking all together. It isn't rational.
Spoilers: I've been tremendously close to suicide. As much as I tried to convince myself not to and failed, my reasons were extremely rational—the situation having changed, the reasons are no longer relevant to me (hence why I didn't go through with it), but given the set of circumstances, it was stunning in how clear and logical it was.
I think "irrational" is a bit misleading as far as trying to describe it. But then again I'd describe it as "exquisite" because I find having been pushed almost to the breaking point of human mental/emotional endurance to have been an enlightening experience that's given me a lot of perspective (albeit it's an experience I hate having had thrust upon me, and one which I would never wish on others). I'd say "incomprehensible" is a better word to use, since most people have a hard time grasping just what it's like, hence why they call it irrational—they don't understand it, therefore it must be wrong.
I know Desolation Angel has had issues with suicidal ideation, but what do you have to bring to the table? More "spirit, mind, and body" crap? Or something relevant?
The OP is looking for affirmation not condemnation on his beliefs. Unfortuantly he has lead himself down a false path in the bible. He needs to be pointed back to the correct path. that takes time.
He actually isn't (clarifying edit: that is to say he's looking for help, not blind affirmation). Reread what he said of my replies. I may not have been the single most helpful person in this thread but it didn't quite warrant the "shut up, Teia" everyone else is trying to give me.
I think "irrational" is a bit misleading as far as trying to describe it.
No it isn't because the person is not thinking clearly. their entire system has in effect shut down. all boundaries of self-preservation (which is probably the last barrier have all but failed).
More "spirit, mind, and body" crap?
Unfortuantly for you it isn't crap. If your spirit, your mind and your body are out of sync and there is something causing an imbalance between the 3 of them you will not function correctly and it can lead to suicide.
look at anyone that has committed suicide and you will see the reason.
1. their body is very sick or they are really tired, or some other physical ailement.
2. They are not thinking clearly and/or have some other mental issue.
3. They have just given up on life, and feel there is nothing else to live for (spirit).
whether you like it or not you are a spiritual being in a physical body.
He actually isn't (clarifying edit: that is to say he's looking for help, not blind affirmation). Reread what he said of my replies. I may not have been the single most helpful person in this thread but it didn't quite warrant the "shut up, Teia" everyone else is trying to give me.
do you have any proof of any of this? so far all you have done is bash his belief system (like that is going to help anything). so far in this thread you have only managed to argue with anyone that doens't agree with everything you say so yea not very helpful.
a lot of this can be fixed by a lot of soul searching reading and study, by asking question from people that know what they are talking about and by getting rid of the chains he has bound himself up with.
that takes time.
Christ said to cast all your burden's and concerns on Him for His yoke is light. Which it is.
I like how when you spout unfounded crap with no basis in reality, it gets a pass as being factual, while when I say things that actually have basis in science you dismiss it out of hand. You don't have any proof of that "spirit, mind, and body" stuff. There's no rational basis for believing that people have spirits (and the bible doesn't count), but it's a belief you're shoving at me as if it doesn't need backing? And you wonder why I'm derisive of the opposing viewpoint.
Also, I absolutely loathe having to quote this since it makes me seem even more self-important than I already do, but since you asked for proof that he was looking for help rather than blind affirmation: "I especially want to thank Teia for holding up the non-believing front, as I believe it's going to be important for me to research both sides of the issue with an objective mind in order to find the answers for myself." Like it or not, I fight the "get secular help" fight not to advance the atheist agenda but because, looking at his situation, it's what I honestly feel would be most helpful—and, again, "let's all join hands and pray it away" only "works" in that it takes your mind off the problem, and this problem is too serious for that. Sure, it works for some things (minor things, mostly), but bring suicide into the mix and suddenly it stops being the magic cure-all.
@mystery: Yes, kraken specifically thanked Teia for giving a non-religious perspective on the matter. I was going to shut up and let the man find his own way until he specifically thanked her for that. I think he needs to find his own answers on this topic, not someone else's. Try having a little faith that God will help the man out as he needs it. I doubt this bickering helps much.
The things you say about body-mind-spirit being out of sync are indeed unfounded. You have never supplied supporting evidence for this. You have also never defined what a mind is or what a spirit is and how they are different things. You have never described what it means for them to all "be in sync" or to "become out of sync". In what sense are these things synchronized and how do they "sync up"? How do they lose this synchronization? Your "explanations" are unhelpful because they offer no method of remedying kraken's situation. If your prescription to help kraken is for him to re-establish faith in God then just say that. There is no need for this confusing mind-body-spirit talk.
@kraken: I hope things are going well for you. I hope all this bickering here is helping you in some way. Quite frankly, I hope you find a way to feel loved and important. I think some of the best advice in this thread has been your own, when you said that you need to be able to love yourself. I think that will only make things better for you. I'm aware that substituting in a God who loves you and thinks you're important can fill this role as well. I hope you feel this love too if it helps you. (The downside to this kind of love, I fear, is that it can lead you into thinking you are a bad person when things don't go your way).
No matter what happens with your god-beliefs, I just hope that you find a way to enjoy every day you have as much as possible.
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"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love." --Carl Sagan
I care not what your religious or logical lease on life is, so long as you have something relevant to say. Running me through the mud when I already did a pretty good job of doing that myself, was unecessary. Yes I am weak, I said as much already. But to go as far as to call me no better than a heroin addict is more than a little unecessary and hurtful.
I didn't mean it like that.
What I meant to say was that you, personally, need religion. If like you said is true and the only reason you wake up is because of your god, then you need religion.
You should try to hold on to your belief as the ramifications of non belief would be desasterous for you. I've seen it happen.
Without belief in a god, one needs to find their own reasons to live. A lot don't. It can be very depressing.
My best advice to you is to seek the counsil of a priest. If you feel more depressed and suicidal you could check into a psychiatric hospital for a few days.
What I meant to say was that you, personally, need religion. If like you said is true and the only reason you wake up is because of your god, then you need religion.
Wrong.
If the only reason someone can wake up is one specific thing, they need to take a good hard look at why they need that specific thing. Because religion is nothing special and your quote could just as easily be:
What I meant to say was that you, personally, need drugs. If like you said is true and the only reason you wake up is because of meth, then you need drugs.
Again, religion doesn't get a free pass just because a bunch of ignorant shepherds all decided a few thousand years ago that worshiping an invisible man in the sky was a good idea. If something becomes a crutch for life, then examining it critically and objectively is mandatory for long-term health. No exceptions.
To clarify the apparent debate on what people are disagreeing with when it comes to what I need or don't need, let me elaborate and reiterate.
What I "need" per se is information and personal satisfaction. Highroller has offered a great piece of literature I plan on looking into known as "The New Testament" by an author I'll have to look back a few pages to find again.
I plan on immersing myself with information from both sides. Novels, essays, wikipedia articles, ect. Though I think I am most interested in fiction, as strange as it sounds. I want to see literature based around protagonists that benefit both from perseverance of self and through the belief in God carrying them through.
Most importantly I need to find meaning in life. I don't think that's going to happen within this thread. Although I do appreciate all of the efforts that every one of you have done to try and help me. I will do my best to follow as much advice as possible to find my own path. But if anyone's expecting some sort of magical resolution where I miraculously update this thread and declare myself "all better now" I hate to disappoint but I just don't think it's gonna happen just yet.
These things take time, but if I find a suitable solution I'll be sure to send some updates around to those who care. lol.
To clarify the apparent debate on what people are disagreeing with when it comes to what I need or don't need, let me elaborate and reiterate.
What I "need" per se is information and personal satisfaction. Highroller has offered a great piece of literature I plan on looking into known as "The New Testament" by an author I'll have to look back a few pages to find again.
I plan on immersing myself with information from both sides. Novels, essays, wikipedia articles, ect. Though I think I am most interested in fiction, as strange as it sounds. I want to see literature based around protagonists that benefit both from perseverance of self and through the belief in God carrying them through.
Most importantly I need to find meaning in life. I don't think that's going to happen within this thread. Although I do appreciate all of the efforts that every one of you have done to try and help me. I will do my best to follow as much advice as possible to find my own path. But if anyone's expecting some sort of magical resolution where I miraculously update this thread and declare myself "all better now" I hate to disappoint but I just don't think it's gonna happen just yet.
These things take time, but if I find a suitable solution I'll be sure to send some updates around to those who care. lol.
I mean, you can do whatever you want on the academic side of this, but I need you to remember the fact that this is completely incidental to the main problem, which is why you were suicidal in the first place. You need to readdress that. Like, historical study of the Bible is a fascinating topic, but that's not where religion is found. You find that through living.
Like, here's a hint: the less time you spend on this thread will be better for you. Don't get me wrong, it's wonderful and a blessing to find a community like this on the internet where people who are complete strangers to you are willing to care about you, but your success is going to be found out in the world. Where it's definitely not going to be found with you sitting around introspecting. That's how you got where you are in the first place.
Just go out and live your life. I guarantee if you're actually going out and doing things, you'll progress incredibly with regards to letting go of the things that are paralyzing you.
Actually that's not a bad idea, some people have found it compatible, taken as a philosophy, to be with Christianity. There are other philosophies that are also compatible than pure Biblical interpretation, and other Biblical interpretations that can work. Main thing is to really read all sorts of different scriptures and philosophies, pick what works. Hell, there's Aquinas and Augustine and Cicero and Aristotle and et al. Ibn Sinna and other Islamic scholars from the Golden Age were excellent reads, too. The Jews, though, have a lot of stuff in general. Apocrypha, philosophy, and theological works with historiographic background places a good ground in understanding religion.
Ultimately, even various church figures had to go beyond the Bible, including Calvin and Luther. Atheist literature is equally another route that should be taken. However, I'd stress to figure out the underlining problem prior to the health issues.
If the only reason someone can wake up is one specific thing, they need to take a good hard look at why they need that specific thing. Because religion is nothing special and your quote could just as easily be:
Again, religion doesn't get a free pass just because a bunch of ignorant shepherds all decided a few thousand years ago that worshiping an invisible man in the sky was a good idea. If something becomes a crutch for life, then examining it critically and objectively is mandatory for long-term health. No exceptions.
Frankly, an atheist can't prove God doesn't exist and a theist cannot prove God exists. I've studied various people for a long time, and I can't really say whether you can tell me "religion makes people better or worse." Because, for a number of people it doesn't change their life, for others it makes them worse, and for others it sets up a great creative life.
There have been several influential religious people in the world that lived normal and productive lives that were devout with health problems like Andy Warhol. If anything, it seemed to make him a better artist. And believe you me, the man had his quirks. However, the religion wasn't a major contributer to his problems.
There are atheists that also had health problems, and lived just fine. There are agnostics and ect. I have yet to see any psychological studies or anything of that nature that makes religious people more prone to issues. In part, if anything the ones that engage in communal activities live longer, but this is doable by active atheists.
In these specific circumstances, if "thinking about God" triggers health problems, then yea. However, it's not an extension of the religion, rather of the prima facie, whatever that maybe, that requires the OP to get help if he hasn't already.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
And yeah, no need to get into textual debates here.
I am just going to quote this post because quoting all of your posts is far too much work.
You have approached this thread with complete arrogance and a supposed omniscience.
It is frustrating to read your posts.
As Kraken said; you have successfully provided a viewpoint of a person who could best be described as atheistic. In that sense you have been helpful.
Your complete dismissal of everything in which you do not believe is exasperating as you have even admitted yourself that you cannot prove there is no God, or Gods, etc. Much as I cannot prove that there is a God. The certainty that you approach every viewpoint you provide is stunning in its absoluteness. I cannot fathom that you are an expert in the many arenas that have been discussed here.
Further your attitude, as evidenced by calling those who disagree with you "kids", as well as supposing the mental health history of another poster here, is unfortunate to say the least. It adds no validity to your arguments to be as hostile as you have been.
No one here has claimed to have empirical evidence that there is a God. Yet you seem to be frustrated by the fact that people strongly believe that there is, much as you believe that there is not.
Before you go assuming anything about me, let me inform you about my theological self:
I am a Christian. I practice my faith very strongly under the ideology of not focusing on the speck in another's eye when there is a plank in my own. In layman's terms, I treat my belief as a personal walk with God. I am happy to share with people what that walk means to me IF they ask. I do not presume to know what another person should be doing with their life, nor do I assume anything about their day to day life, their afterlife or anything that, frankly, is not my business.
I have taken several academic university classes on religion, history of religion, theology, etc. These classes have been instrumental with my personal beliefs and have been taught by an Agnostic, an Atheist, two Christians and a Muslim.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10498534#post10498534
Wrong.
You have no way of knowing if Jesus said that. You have a claim by a human that Jesus had said that decades earlier. On top of that you have a claim by a human that the previous claim is unerringly true. Those human claims may or may not be mistaken. We have no words directly from Jesus, just what later people claim he said.
You know, that's exactly how I'd describe every single person whose approach to these problems has been to say, "You just need to pray harder."
And I'm fine being an arrogant ***** as long as I keep my objectivity and don't stray off into atheistic proselytizing, which as far as I've gone in this thread I haven't. In fact, I've said numerous times that, honestly, the OP keeping his religion may indeed be the best course of action (and conversely that the theists aren't quite so magnanimous as to suggest openly that the reverse may be true).
I'm curious what you mean by "at best" atheistic. What would the "at worst" option be?
The theistic side approaches it with just as much if not more certainty, I assure you. At the very least, I'm not spouting unscientific mumbo-jumbo about "spirit, mind, and body" as if that has anything to do with real problems in the real world.
Don't let my age fool you. I've got a lot of experiences in a lot of disparate areas.
And you are certainly entitled to that opinion. I would argue, however, that none have so consistently been as aggressive or absolute as you have been in this thread.
Just for the record, that is a name you have chosen for yourself, I have not said it, or implied it, nor do I endorse it. As for keeping your objectivity, I am not certain you have accomplished that. Much of what you have posted has been subjective.
I never said "at best" in reference to your religious ideologies. I said "best be described as". I don't believe that you have specifically stated that you are an atheist, so I chose not to identify your beliefs with certainty. Instead I said, as mentioned, "best be described as" so as to avoid speaking for you.
I also never said a thing about your age, which I have no clue what it may be. I wouldn't even hazard a guess at this point. I said that you referred to those who disagreed with you as "kids", which is true. I also said that I cannot fathom that you would be an expert in the wide variety of disciplines that you have tackled with absoluteness in this thread.
I have no doubt that you have had a lot of experience in a lot of disparate areas, but I still do not believe that you could possibly be an expert in all of them.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10498534#post10498534
One slight correction:
I tend to be fairly subtle when actually saying these kinds of things about myself, I admit, and only wind up saying it once or twice and even then not very loudly.
I simply wanted to err on the side of caution.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10498534#post10498534
I know what you are going through because i have been there myself. It isn't a pretty place to be, but you know what helped was finding a good nondemoninational church. it should be easy as more and keep popping up.
surrounding yourself with like minded people helps.
Every christian goes through this. It is something that has been around for a while. truth devotion and prayer will light the way.
read the 21st psalm. yea though i walk through the valley of the shadow of death i will fear no evil for thou are with me. they rod and thy staff they comfort me.
death in the verse is but a shadow and where there is light no shadow can exist.
you have to remember the times in which they were written and put that into context. not everything that happened back then is the same as it is now.
i am non-denominational and i have been for a while now even though i was raise baptist. the only way to find information is by study and asking questions.
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Yes, and that fact is very obvious to everyone reading this thread.
Normally I wouldn't care, I would be more than happy to let someone who's basically decided that being a douche is going to be their primary contribution to this forum go ahead, except for the fact I do care in this particular thread because we're not discussing something inane. This is a thread started by someone who has been suicidal who finds himself at a crossroads in life and has reached out because he is conflicted in what to think about life and belief. And all you've done in this thread is do everything you can to derail it and make it all about you. You're attention whoring in a thread in which someone is actually asking for help.
That shows a dearth of character. And it's unfortunate.
You are utterly self-absorbed and conceited, with an arrogance that prevents you from understanding that what you profess to be wisdom is rooted in presumption.
Meanwhile, Kraken is a person trying to break out of a shell of destructive self-centeredness.
Maybe something in you might actually recognize that you are exactly the wrong person to be in this thread. It's certainly not going to be easy for you, Desolation Angel did a good job knocking you right royally off your high horse, but you didn't take that for the lesson that it was and continued right on as you were before. But I'm holding out on the idea that there's a part of you that isn't completely self-centered enough to recognize this.
And for the record, what Desolation Angel did was attempt to impress a set of values regarding suicide upon me that quite frankly weren't any better than my own.
And also for the record, my atheistic viewpoint is precisely what the OP needs. I don't believe in circle-jerks where everyone reinforces the same message to the point of absurdity. If his religious beliefs are to be challenged, then they should be challenged properly. The difference between us, as always, is that I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong (about the OP's faith, that is). You don't seem to be.
Unless you have been close to suicide or understand what a person is thinking then well you really can't comment on it. It is a different way of thinking all together. It isn't rational.
you haven't excepted that fact that you are wrong yet so how you can make this statement is beyond me.
The OP is looking for affirmation not condemnation on his beliefs. Unfortuantly he has lead himself down a false path in the bible. He needs to be pointed back to the correct path. that takes time.
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Spoilers: I've been tremendously close to suicide. As much as I tried to convince myself not to and failed, my reasons were extremely rational—the situation having changed, the reasons are no longer relevant to me (hence why I didn't go through with it), but given the set of circumstances, it was stunning in how clear and logical it was.
I think "irrational" is a bit misleading as far as trying to describe it. But then again I'd describe it as "exquisite" because I find having been pushed almost to the breaking point of human mental/emotional endurance to have been an enlightening experience that's given me a lot of perspective (albeit it's an experience I hate having had thrust upon me, and one which I would never wish on others). I'd say "incomprehensible" is a better word to use, since most people have a hard time grasping just what it's like, hence why they call it irrational—they don't understand it, therefore it must be wrong.
I know Desolation Angel has had issues with suicidal ideation, but what do you have to bring to the table? More "spirit, mind, and body" crap? Or something relevant?
He actually isn't (clarifying edit: that is to say he's looking for help, not blind affirmation). Reread what he said of my replies. I may not have been the single most helpful person in this thread but it didn't quite warrant the "shut up, Teia" everyone else is trying to give me.
No it isn't because the person is not thinking clearly. their entire system has in effect shut down. all boundaries of self-preservation (which is probably the last barrier have all but failed).
Unfortuantly for you it isn't crap. If your spirit, your mind and your body are out of sync and there is something causing an imbalance between the 3 of them you will not function correctly and it can lead to suicide.
look at anyone that has committed suicide and you will see the reason.
1. their body is very sick or they are really tired, or some other physical ailement.
2. They are not thinking clearly and/or have some other mental issue.
3. They have just given up on life, and feel there is nothing else to live for (spirit).
whether you like it or not you are a spiritual being in a physical body.
do you have any proof of any of this? so far all you have done is bash his belief system (like that is going to help anything). so far in this thread you have only managed to argue with anyone that doens't agree with everything you say so yea not very helpful.
a lot of this can be fixed by a lot of soul searching reading and study, by asking question from people that know what they are talking about and by getting rid of the chains he has bound himself up with.
that takes time.
Christ said to cast all your burden's and concerns on Him for His yoke is light. Which it is.
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Also, I absolutely loathe having to quote this since it makes me seem even more self-important than I already do, but since you asked for proof that he was looking for help rather than blind affirmation: "I especially want to thank Teia for holding up the non-believing front, as I believe it's going to be important for me to research both sides of the issue with an objective mind in order to find the answers for myself." Like it or not, I fight the "get secular help" fight not to advance the atheist agenda but because, looking at his situation, it's what I honestly feel would be most helpful—and, again, "let's all join hands and pray it away" only "works" in that it takes your mind off the problem, and this problem is too serious for that. Sure, it works for some things (minor things, mostly), but bring suicide into the mix and suddenly it stops being the magic cure-all.
The things you say about body-mind-spirit being out of sync are indeed unfounded. You have never supplied supporting evidence for this. You have also never defined what a mind is or what a spirit is and how they are different things. You have never described what it means for them to all "be in sync" or to "become out of sync". In what sense are these things synchronized and how do they "sync up"? How do they lose this synchronization? Your "explanations" are unhelpful because they offer no method of remedying kraken's situation. If your prescription to help kraken is for him to re-establish faith in God then just say that. There is no need for this confusing mind-body-spirit talk.
@kraken: I hope things are going well for you. I hope all this bickering here is helping you in some way. Quite frankly, I hope you find a way to feel loved and important. I think some of the best advice in this thread has been your own, when you said that you need to be able to love yourself. I think that will only make things better for you. I'm aware that substituting in a God who loves you and thinks you're important can fill this role as well. I hope you feel this love too if it helps you. (The downside to this kind of love, I fear, is that it can lead you into thinking you are a bad person when things don't go your way).
No matter what happens with your god-beliefs, I just hope that you find a way to enjoy every day you have as much as possible.
I didn't mean it like that.
What I meant to say was that you, personally, need religion. If like you said is true and the only reason you wake up is because of your god, then you need religion.
You should try to hold on to your belief as the ramifications of non belief would be desasterous for you. I've seen it happen.
Without belief in a god, one needs to find their own reasons to live. A lot don't. It can be very depressing.
My best advice to you is to seek the counsil of a priest. If you feel more depressed and suicidal you could check into a psychiatric hospital for a few days.
Wrong.
If the only reason someone can wake up is one specific thing, they need to take a good hard look at why they need that specific thing. Because religion is nothing special and your quote could just as easily be:
Again, religion doesn't get a free pass just because a bunch of ignorant shepherds all decided a few thousand years ago that worshiping an invisible man in the sky was a good idea. If something becomes a crutch for life, then examining it critically and objectively is mandatory for long-term health. No exceptions.
What I "need" per se is information and personal satisfaction. Highroller has offered a great piece of literature I plan on looking into known as "The New Testament" by an author I'll have to look back a few pages to find again.
I plan on immersing myself with information from both sides. Novels, essays, wikipedia articles, ect. Though I think I am most interested in fiction, as strange as it sounds. I want to see literature based around protagonists that benefit both from perseverance of self and through the belief in God carrying them through.
Most importantly I need to find meaning in life. I don't think that's going to happen within this thread. Although I do appreciate all of the efforts that every one of you have done to try and help me. I will do my best to follow as much advice as possible to find my own path. But if anyone's expecting some sort of magical resolution where I miraculously update this thread and declare myself "all better now" I hate to disappoint but I just don't think it's gonna happen just yet.
These things take time, but if I find a suitable solution I'll be sure to send some updates around to those who care. lol.
I mean, you can do whatever you want on the academic side of this, but I need you to remember the fact that this is completely incidental to the main problem, which is why you were suicidal in the first place. You need to readdress that. Like, historical study of the Bible is a fascinating topic, but that's not where religion is found. You find that through living.
Like, here's a hint: the less time you spend on this thread will be better for you. Don't get me wrong, it's wonderful and a blessing to find a community like this on the internet where people who are complete strangers to you are willing to care about you, but your success is going to be found out in the world. Where it's definitely not going to be found with you sitting around introspecting. That's how you got where you are in the first place.
Just go out and live your life. I guarantee if you're actually going out and doing things, you'll progress incredibly with regards to letting go of the things that are paralyzing you.
Actually that's not a bad idea, some people have found it compatible, taken as a philosophy, to be with Christianity. There are other philosophies that are also compatible than pure Biblical interpretation, and other Biblical interpretations that can work. Main thing is to really read all sorts of different scriptures and philosophies, pick what works. Hell, there's Aquinas and Augustine and Cicero and Aristotle and et al. Ibn Sinna and other Islamic scholars from the Golden Age were excellent reads, too. The Jews, though, have a lot of stuff in general. Apocrypha, philosophy, and theological works with historiographic background places a good ground in understanding religion.
Ultimately, even various church figures had to go beyond the Bible, including Calvin and Luther. Atheist literature is equally another route that should be taken. However, I'd stress to figure out the underlining problem prior to the health issues.
Frankly, an atheist can't prove God doesn't exist and a theist cannot prove God exists. I've studied various people for a long time, and I can't really say whether you can tell me "religion makes people better or worse." Because, for a number of people it doesn't change their life, for others it makes them worse, and for others it sets up a great creative life.
There have been several influential religious people in the world that lived normal and productive lives that were devout with health problems like Andy Warhol. If anything, it seemed to make him a better artist. And believe you me, the man had his quirks. However, the religion wasn't a major contributer to his problems.
There are atheists that also had health problems, and lived just fine. There are agnostics and ect. I have yet to see any psychological studies or anything of that nature that makes religious people more prone to issues. In part, if anything the ones that engage in communal activities live longer, but this is doable by active atheists.
In these specific circumstances, if "thinking about God" triggers health problems, then yea. However, it's not an extension of the religion, rather of the prima facie, whatever that maybe, that requires the OP to get help if he hasn't already.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
His problems were definitely scummy to say the least.
This is why I view atheism as a religious belief. Many atheists would disagree with me.