This is why I view atheism as a religious belief. Many atheists would disagree with me.
Really though, how many atheists actually claim to know that God doesn't exist? I think every single atheist I've talked with or read from, with the exception of kids just doing it to be rebellious, is agnostic as well as atheistic on the topic of God. Maybe God (or gods) exist, but they don't believe any do.
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"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love." --Carl Sagan
Really though, how many atheists actually claim to know that God doesn't exist?
Well, I can't claim to know based on any rational, scientific evidence. Science in general is agnostic on the subject: there's no reason to believe it, but no reason to disbelieve it. But as I said, I hold it as a religious belief that there are no gods of any kind that either exist outside the universe, and if such a "godlike" thing exists within our universe, then it can be explained by rational means (just because we don't understand something doesn't mean we can never understand it).
In short, Yahweh (for the slow kids in the class, that's the actual name of the Christian/Jewish/Islamic god) is entirely fictional.
Actually that's not a bad idea, some people have found it compatible, taken as a philosophy, to be with Christianity.
Completely false. Buddhism and Christianity are in no way compatible.
Not a value judgment on Buddhism, and not saying you can't find common ground between them, I'm just saying that the two religions are completely different, and in so many ways opposite in outlook.
@mystery: Yes, kraken specifically thanked Teia for giving a non-religious perspective on the matter. I was going to shut up and let the man find his own way until he specifically thanked her for that. I think he needs to find his own answers on this topic, not someone else's. Try having a little faith that God will help the man out as he needs it. I doubt this bickering helps much.
I can thank anyone for their prespective on something it doesn't mean that i am going to listen to it. there is a bit of a difference.
More so when that advice could be considered toxic to the person in question.
Yep i agree he needs to find his own answers. Yet at the same time he has many questions to ask. so when you have those questions who do you go to? someone that actually knows the answer or someone that posts this type of non-sense.
Again, religion doesn't get a free pass just because a bunch of ignorant shepherds all decided a few thousand years ago that worshiping an invisible man in the sky was a good idea. If something becomes a crutch for life, then examining it critically and objectively is mandatory for long-term health. No exceptions.
as someone in another thread said you don't go to non-christains for religious advice.
The things you say about body-mind-spirit being out of sync are indeed unfounded.
Only to a non-religious person they are. even biblically they are accurate and are very much founded.
You have never supplied supporting evidence for this. You have also never defined what a mind is or what a spirit is and how they are different things. You have never described what it means for them to all "be in sync" or to "become out of sync". In what sense are these things synchronized and how do they "sync up"? How do they lose this synchronization? Your "explanations" are unhelpful because they offer no method of remedying kraken's situation. If your prescription to help kraken is for him to re-establish faith in God then just say that. There is no need for this confusing mind-body-spirit talk.
I think we know what a mind and spirit are or at least we know what they are so why should i have to define something that we already know?
What is a person without a body? what is a person without a brain? what is a person without a spirit?
Why do perfectly healthy people commit suicide? why do people that are mentally stable do things to harm themselves? there is more to it than just what we perceive on the outside.
It is very easy to tell when a person is in sync with themselves. these people are full of life and joy and generally on the happy side of things even if something isn't going as plan.
it is also very easy to tell the people that are broken in some way. either physically broken or mentally broken or spiritually broken. these people tend to suffer more from depression among other things. we are talking long bouts of depression not just you just don't feel good for some reason.
Right now Kraken is fighting a spiritual battle. These can be dangerous as they can leave a person very tired, drawn and questioning their every decision in life.
Eph 6:12 has been popping up a lot lately since i first mentioned it a while ago. so far the verse has popped up 3 times in the past week.
If your prescription to help kraken is for him to re-establish faith in God then just say that. There is no need for this confusing mind-body-spirit talk.
Faith is an important part but just one piece of the puzzle. It isn't just by faith alone. there is more needed here than just faith. which is why i recommended a good local pastor or fellow christain group of some kind to go to.
It isn't confusing when you understand what it is. you are more than just the sum of your parts whether you want to believe it or not.
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I can thank anyone for their prespective on something it doesn't mean that i am going to listen to it. there is a bit of a difference.
Quote from Kraken »
I especially want to thank Teia for holding up the non-believing front, as I believe it's going to be important for me to research both sides of the issue with an objective mind in order to find the answers for myself.
So, uh, yeah, it does.
*edit @ response*
Yeah, sometimes you have people give you advice and ignore it. I know! I've done it before too! I'm willing to bet most people have. But here, the creator of the thread is literally saying "I need to listen to Teia and these other people in order to figure out what I'm looking to figure out". Unless Kraken is lying [which I would doubt], he's listening to Teia.
as someone in another thread said you don't go to non-christains for religious advice.
WHAT?!? If you have religious problems, to only go to the believers on one religion seems like the stupidest thing you could possibly do. If you need to reaffirm your faith within itself, that's something else, but staying isolated is possibly the worst coping mechanism possible.
Right now Kraken is fighting a spiritual battle. These can be dangerous as they can leave a person very tired, drawn and questioning their every decision in life.
Just want to say here that this is true, and you need to be careful of what you do when involved in spiritual crises of any kind: acting rashly without a full understanding of the things involved can be dangerous. [In other words, a long '+1'.]
Faith is an important part but just one piece of the puzzle. It isn't just by faith alone. there is more needed here than just faith. which is why i recommended a good local pastor or fellow christain group of some kind to go to.
And another +1 to this part. Faith cannot solve anything alone because of humanity's annoying propensity to curiosity and reasoning. Talking to a pastor or similar figure may be helpful. Remember that the Bible was written by fallible men who may have misinterpreted God's word, so you don't need to believe in everything in the Bible to be a "true Christian" or truly believe in god - and that believing something for selfish reasons isn't necessarily a bad thing. In fact, you may be able to use your faith to find a larger purpose in life that is more than a lifeline from death.
Though I don't get that comfort from believing something that feels oddly made up [IMHO of course!] ... but to each his own. No belief is wrong to hold, I feel, as long as it's used positively.
my mouth is full of winsome lies -
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
as someone in another thread said you don't go to non-christains for religious advice.
Actually, non-Christians are a very good source of advice seeing as we're not tied so deeply into faith that we can't see the forest for the trees. We can tell the difference between what is (to us anyway) a little bit of harmless make-believe and harmful delusion.
Only to a non-religious person they are. even biblically they are accurate and are very much founded.
I don't give two ☺☺☺☺s about what the bible says. The bible was written by humans thousands of years ago. I want real, factual backing for this crap you're spouting, because bad approaches to mental health can be devastating and I can't stand to see someone like you possibly be taken seriously when you're so full of it that you're squirting it out your ears.
I'm sure you wholeheartedly believe this spirit/mind/body nonsense. But you certainly can't back it without quoting the bible (actually, I searched it and couldn't find anything, so you might want to point me at the specific verses that back your claims). You're intentionally blinding yourself with your faith, and that is a terrible thing. You're taking the view of the god of the gaps, where just because you don't understand something, the answer has to be in religion. But the world doesn't work that way. It operates on scientific principles, and this applies to the mind as well—this is why psychology can help him. Taking one of these would have about the same effect as faith, anyway.
The only reason to seek help from pastors and religious group is if you specifically want the religious aspect of their help, because otherwise a trained professional will be able to get much more done with psychology. So by claiming all this "spiritual battle" nonsense, you're throwing it entirely into the court of faith, which seems to be against what you're claiming should be done (i.e. your claims that faith is only one part of it). So... I'm just going based on what you're doing rather than what you're simply claiming, here.
Eph 6:12 has been popping up a lot lately since i first mentioned it a while ago. so far the verse has popped up 3 times in the past week.
Ephesians 6:12 doesn't mean ☺☺☺☺ all. You can't go about cherry-picking bible verses that suit you while disregarding the ones that don't. Ephesians 6:12 isn't relevant in the modern day and age, exactly the same as Ephesians 6:5-8, Ephesians 5:22-24, and everything else people throw around verbatim. If you want to claim that the overall spirit of these books is important, I won't stop you, but there's absolutely no logical basis in the kind of cherry-picking you engage in.
Alternatively, listen to Ephesians 4:29 and only say things that are actually helpful. Not just things you only think are helpful.
Not really. i have had plenty of people give me advice in the past that well i didn't listen to it for some reason or another. (I wasn't refering to him specifically.)
WHAT?!? If you have religious problems, to only go to the believers on one religion seems like the stupidest thing you could possibly do. If you need to reaffirm your faith within itself, that's something else, but staying isolated is possibly the worst coping mechanism possible.
I probably should have said you don't go to non-christains on spiritual matters. there are concepts that they do not understand or do not have knowledge on that can lead to dangerous paths.
fact, you may be able to use your faith to find a larger purpose in life that is more than a lifeline from death.
that is the place where he needs guidance to get out of. it is more than just a lifeline in fact to view it only as a life line is well very very narrow.
it can also lead to these types of situations.
Teia Rabishu
Others in this thread have already pointed out why you are wrong so i am not going to continue. i have no need to argue with you any further. you really don't know what you are talking about in these matters.
you do not exist without a body and your you body cannot function without a brain and your brain cannot function without a soul. all of these are biblical truths that if you had any knowledge of (which you don't) then you would know this.
pyschology is only good if he has a mental or physical issue. in this case he doesn't. he has a spiritual issue. he is at a cross roads and one that i have seen before. you do not understand because you do not see with a spiritual mindset but a physical one.
so i am not going to be argueing with you anymore. it serves no purpose at all and well others have already accomplished enough in that regard.
------------------------------------------
What I "need" per se is information and personal satisfaction. Highroller has offered a great piece of literature I plan on looking into known as "The New Testament" by an author I'll have to look back a few pages to find again.
I plan on immersing myself with information from both sides. Novels, essays, wikipedia articles, ect. Though I think I am most interested in fiction, as strange as it sounds. I want to see literature based around protagonists that benefit both from perseverance of self and through the belief in God carrying them through.
This is a book that you have heard of and almost every person in the world has read it from one point or another. pick up the book pilgrims progress. It is very much a book for you to read in this point in time for your life.
yes it is a kids book of sorts but it is a book of TRUTH, and I feel that truth is what i needed most at this point.
Most importantly I need to find meaning in life. I don't think that's going to happen within this thread.
that is a question that many people seek and few people find. i know what it is to be lost and looking for answers. talking to fellow christains and talking to my pastor really helped in getting some things of my life on track.
talking with a christain councelor really helped as well.
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Some of you are calling him conceded... That is rediculous.
All he is doing, is yearning, begging, pleading, searching, screaming for someone, just someone to actually back up their claims with some supporting evidence.
While having the common decency to say "I don't know exactly how to fix his problem - WHY DONT WE RECOMMEND HIM TO PROFESSIONALS FOR HELP" rather than making wild guesses based upon unfounded belief systems.
Think what you are all recommending - here is a translation into direct language: "i have no idea there is a God, but ASSUMING my guess that Jebus is real is correct, then here is my ONE PERSONAL INTERPRETATION of the ADVICE that is not personal to you and written thousands of years before you were born"
Funny how the people who think they KNOW the creator of the univers, have a RELATIONSHIP with him, and think they KNOW what is best for Kraken are calling the guy who is saying......
go and see an expert who is far more qualified that any of us
...... the 'arrogant' one.
Besides, I have never met a Christian who hasn't told me that if i would just "genuinely reach out for God" then Jesus would save me - well guess what people - Kraken has clearly been doing just that, and been left searching...
Now why don't you go back to your beloved book of morality that takes the time to outlaw victimless crimes like sex before marriage and working on the sabbath or saying '&%$# jesus'.... but does not take the time to specifically advise against -
1. racism
2. slavery, or
3. sexism
...and the fact that i could quote mine the bible to show it actually instructs on exactly how to participate in those 3 exact evils may not mean for sure the bible does support those evils - but it is very, very, very disconcerting.
Well, you're not even really "arguing" to begin with if all you can do is clamp your hands over your ears and chant "la la la I can't hear you" by repeating your baseless and unfounded claims as if they're undeniable and imminently obvious fact when in reality they're utter nonsense.
Really. Go find me something that actually proves these "spirits" of yours really exist. I'll even shout that I was wrong from the highest rooftops if you somehow manage to prove that what you're saying is true (and I mean real proof, not this "circular logic while quoting the bible" bull☺☺☺☺ you've been giving me).
And finally, shifting the focus onto yourself like that is very selfish of you. Kraken's problems are not the same problems you had. It's the height of conceit to presume that they are and that what worked for you is going to work for him. But I guess it's easier to do what you're doing than offer real help (and apparently it's easy to forget Eph 4:29 at that).
Now why don't you go back to your beloved book of morality that takes the time to outlaw victimless crimes like sex before marriage and working on the sabbath or saying '&%$# jesus'.... but does not take the time to specifically advise against -
1. racism
2. slavery, or
3. sexism
...and the fact that i could quote mine the bible to show it actually instructs on exactly how to participate in those 3 exact evils may not mean for sure the bible does support those evils - but it is very, very, very disconcerting.
lol christians claiming moral high ground. lol
Remember how the context of that time was, their standards were not the same as ours now. They didn't have full understanding of what human equality and dignity was at that time. Heck, they never knew what those words were or meant and were simply following the very patriarchal culture that was stuck with the very strict religion and neighbored by enemies, this was the natural thing for them to do to maintain the status quo/peace, you can't blame them for not knowing better. What Jesus wanted was to rewrite how society was that time, bringing people together, eliminating barriers and correcting what as wrong in society through his teachings.
And no, not all Christians claim the moral high ground. You can see some very vocal ones like the big Televalgelists and bigwig writers and officials of the institution, but looking at the big wigs and the vocal ones does not make it a generalization of the whole. That would be like saying, there are extremist Muslims out there who want to kill us, therefore all Muslims are dangerous.
Remember how the context of that time was, their standards were not the same as ours now. They didn't have full understanding of what human equality and dignity was at that time. Heck, they never knew what those words were or meant and were simply following the very patriarchal culture that was stuck with the very strict religion and neighbored by enemies, this was the natural thing for them to do to maintain the status quo/peace, you can't blame them for not knowing better. What Jesus wanted was to rewrite how society was that time, bringing people together, eliminating barriers and correcting what as wrong in society through his teachings.
um, lol - but JESUS should have known better. JESUS/GOD, not the people of the day, is surely responsible for what is and isn't in his own stupid holy book.
The question is not why did a bunch of sheep herders fail to address slavery and racism - the question is WHY DID JESUS FAIL TO CONDEMN slavery and racism.
The context of time is irrelevant when you are discussing the 'godly' realm of absolute morality.
This is a frequent excuse Christians use, but it is totally nonsensical, an omnipotent lord is always going to be ultimately responsible for the messages distributed in his holy book. YOUR lord has chosen to specifically outlaw consensual sex between adults, but not make specific reference to slavery, racism or sexism.
"What Jesus wanted was to rewrite how society was that time"
yeah, then why didn't he 're-write' for them a bunch of sins against racism sexism and slavery.
great work jebus, great work *slow clap for effect*
he is allegedly infinitely 'good', omnipotent, and omniscient - sorry but you cant make excuses for a ☺☺☺☺ up from someone with those powers.
um, lol - but JESUS should have known better. JESUS/GOD, not the people of the day, is surely responsible for what is and isn't in his own stupid holy book. The question is not why did a bunch of sheep herders fail to address slavery and racism - the question is WHY DID JESUS FAIL TO CONDEMN slavery and racism.
This is where your failure to understand the bible puts you at a sever disadvantage. your failure to understand the cultural aspect is the same.at every turn in Christ's ministery he was hanging out with the people on the outskirts of the social norms. these would be the dregs of society. he was not hanging out with the aristocarcy or the high priests. in fact he usually went out of his way to tick these people off.It was not uncommon for people to put themselves into slavery. Slavery then was not as we see it today. the jews had a different concept and the laws regarding slaves in jewish society were way different than other cultures. Exodus 21:16 and 1 timothy 1:8-10 both denouce the idea of slave trading and or capturing of people to sell into slavery. slavery was a volenteer thing in those days, or something you did if you could not pay your debt.slaves were paid (not much), fed, and dressed given shelter and protection. they were almost like servants but not quite. there are a great many jewish laws in the treatment of slaves. they were not to be abused or accosted. no matter what the debt you were only required to serve for 6 years. on the 7th year your debt was forgiven and you were freed if you wished or you could become a servant in the household. even if you went free you were given assets. are just a few examples. Deuteronomy is full of jewish law regarding the treatment of slaves and servants.Seeing how Christ was preaching to jew and gentile alike he was condeming racism.
sexism
he did this as well seeing how some of the most important people in Christ's ministry were women. he did fight off sexism in those days as well.
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you have completely missed the point. The point is that Jesus would have said "Once we have created a truly Christian society we will abolish slavery, racism and sexism - however, society is not ready for that, so here are the next steps" if that is what Jesus meant.
How arrogant I would be to assume Jesus meant things he didn't actually say. That would take some conceit - to assume that you knew what Jesus 'meant' - even on topics he didn't discuss. ah, the pretentiousness.
The point is that the bible is EXPLICIT IN DETAIL about hundreds of other sins, what defines them, how they are to be punished, in what context and so on and so on - but never, ever, ever, gives the simple, easily understood - no bull statement "Racism is a sin" or "keeping slaves is a sin". You know, like the lord felt the need to say
"being gay is an abomination" - how the hell could that be more important than "don't be racist"
Jesus said you should follow the laws of the old testament, whether you like it or not.
Matthew 5:18-19
Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 16:17
It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
no matter what the debt you were only required to serve for 6 years.
- LOL so that isn't immoral? hahahaha
Yeah, but in jesus day, slavery was cool, cos you know, it was only for six years.
or maybe God told people to take slaves?
Genesis 25:44-46
God tells the Israelites to make slaves out of their neighbors and their families. The "heathens" and "strangers" are to be their possessions forever. 25:44-46
or how God's ultimate example of a good man - Job, had slaves
Genesis 1:14-17
To start off God and Satan's gruesome game, Job's slaves and animals are killed.
they were not to be abused or accosted
O Rly?
Proverbs 29:19
A servant will not be corrected by words: for though he understand he will not answer.
I don't understand the bible? Why do all Christians assume that agnostics haven't read the whole thing front to back? Probably cos most have you have not done that yourself.
i think you are the one who cannot read. The bible has many quotes that insinuate that both slavery is acceptable - and that slavery is not acceptable
you have completely missed the point. The point is that Jesus would have said "Once we have created a truly Christian society we will abolish slavery, racism and sexism - however, society is not ready for that, so here are the next steps" if that is what Jesus meant.
I haven't missed anything. He already addressed those issues and i have shown you where he addressed them.
i have also shown you where the bible addresses those issues as well. your failure to understand culturally what happens is not my fault nor the bibles.
How arrogant I would be to assume Jesus meant things he didn't actually say. That would take some conceit - to assume that you knew what Jesus 'meant' - even on topics he didn't discuss. ah, the pretentiousness.
I have shown you where those were addressed. so i really don't know what you are talking about.
The point is that the bible is EXPLICIT IN DETAIL about hundreds of other sins, what defines them, how they are to be punished, in what context and so on and so on - but never, ever, ever, gives the simple, easily understood - no bull statement "Racism is a sin" or "keeping slaves is a sin". You know, like the lord felt the need to say
Concepts of racism didn't exist back then and in the hebrew language there was no word for it. in those days you were either jew or gentile.
Seeing how Christ was privy to hanging out with gentiles and other such people on a regular basis i would say that he was.
i guess you missed the part where people put themselves into slavery by their own choice.
gives all the verse's on the laws regarding the treatment of slaves.
I don't understand the bible? Why do all Christians assume that agnostics haven't read the whole thing front to back? Probably cos most have you have not done that yourself.
actually over the years i have. several times in fact.
i think you are the one who cannot read. The bible has many quotes that insinuate that both slavery is acceptable - and that slavery is not acceptable
actually i can read just fine. you on the other hand still fail to recognize the cultural impact at the time. you also fail to read the correction that i have given you on this but the above link will correct that as well.
sorry but the bible is to be taken into context of the time in which it was written for a large part. also the cultural references to things.
i will say it one more time. in jewish society people put themselves into slavery of their own free will. either because they were poor or because they owed a debt that had to be repaid but couldn't pay it. in any event i had to correct your misinformation other than that i am done with this.
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There are more than enough religious debate threads in 'debate'. The very first thing Kraken asked was that this NOT turn into a debate.
Anyone who is arguing on this thread, you need to seriously look at yourself and think about why you are still arguing about this, especially here. All this was supposed to be was people talking about how they deal with God, not questioning what other people have said. But on the very first page this devolved into an argument, spurred on by both sides.
There are more than enough religious debate threads in 'debate'. The very first thing Kraken asked was that this NOT turn into a debate.
Anyone who is arguing on this thread, you need to seriously look at yourself and think about why you are still arguing about this, especially here. All this was supposed to be was people talking about how they deal with God, not questioning what other people have said. But on the very first page this devolved into an argument, spurred on by both sides.
Grow up and let it go or move it to debate.
I agree. This is the reason I don't normally participate in these threads. I don't think we've heard from Kraken in several pages. I'm not sure he got much help here. Doubt is one of the most frustrating places to be. Your worldview is shifting and you aren't sure where to place your trust.
You can deny God exists, call the Bible a hoax, complain about topics on which the Bible disagrees with societal norms all you want. You'll have a hard time convincing me of things I know to be true: that the experiences in my life where I've cried out to God and He answered, where things prophesied occured, where I spoke words I didn't know, where I stood on faith and my pain went away, and times that I have shared these blessings with other believers from around the world who also know His power, His peace, and his mercy. There are too many for them to be circumstance, and the testimony too loud for the world to drown it out. I wish everyone could know it, but I know no one can be forced.
Kraken - if you're still reading, I pray you do find peace.
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You can deny God exists, call the Bible a hoax, complain about topics on which the Bible disagrees with societal norms all you want. You'll have a hard time convincing me of things I know to be true: that the experiences in my life where I've cried out to God and He answered, where things prophesied occured, where I spoke words I didn't know, where I stood on faith and my pain went away, and times that I have shared these blessings with other believers from around the world who also know His power, His peace, and his mercy. There are too many for them to be circumstance, and the testimony too loud for the world to drown it out. I wish everyone could know it, but I know no one can be forced.
That's funny - Muslims make the EXACT same argument. This is therefore not an argument in your favor.
With regards to your claims, It's also interesting that he is NOT answering Kraken despite his sincerity.
is not the correct chapter as there are not 44 verses in genesis 25.
apologies - its Leviticus 25: 44
sigh
again, you have missed the point - I am not arguing whether or not the book as written was for a bunch of sheep herding uneducated simpletons from 2000 years ago. I am saying that if the book was a credible moral guide it would have, AT SOME POINT IN ITS 750,000 WORDS, specifically and explicitly stated that racism, sexism and slavery were wrong!
The morality of the bible is not subjective to the 'moral standards' of the times - otherwise homosexuality would not be a sin in countries where it is legal, because it represents the culture of the times - but oh wait unlike slavery, racism and sexism - it hasn't been explicitly outlawed.
I don't care who the books audience WAS, I care about who the audience IS - your Jesus/God mate is omnipotent and omniscient and therefore would have KNOWN that people would be using the book for millenia to come. Therefore - the book, and the speech DID NOT just have a target audience of the jews and the gentiles as Jesus KNEW that the book would be read forever after. AND if Jesus knew that the book was going to be read forever after - then he could have made some CLEAR directions - or provided CLARIFYING REMARKS that specifically referenced the statements and directions that he is clarifying....
....ninth graders have worked out, or been taught how to to that in their terrible attempts at class essays.
The mere fact that there is conjecture over the treatment of slaves in the bible - but never a specific outlawing of the practice. Is all I need to show. Thats all I am saying.
Concepts of racism didn't exist back then and in the hebrew language there was no word for it. in those days you were either jew or gentile.
wow, just wow. You think they didn't have racism back then? really. omg that is the funniest thing I have heard all year. You think that labelling all people that are ot jewish as 'goyim' is not an issue of descrimination and 'subjugation' (such as racism, sexism, slavery)
HOw come then, Jebus never said "verily I say unto thee, thou shalt never refer to men with the terms of subjugation, such as goyim" (might have stopped the christians of the american south from using the n-word and keeping slaves for so long.) some moral guide you got there.
actually i can read just fine. you on the other hand still fail to recognize the cultural impact at the time. you also fail to read the correction that i have given you on this but the above link will correct that as well.
sorry but the bible is to be taken into context of the time in which it was written for a large part. also the cultural references to things.
i will say it one more time. in jewish society people put themselves into slavery of their own free will. either because they were poor or because they owed a debt that had to be repaid but couldn't pay it. in any event i had to correct your misinformation other than that i am done with this.
see above, i recognise the cultural barriers, but only because jesus (assuming he existed at all as written) was just another everyday man - what i am saying is that Jesus (if he was the lord) should have known better, and provided a better moral guide. And given that you are the one who thinks jesus is perfect in every way - why do you not assume that if he didnt clarify what he meant as the eternal laws of behavior - that he would still find that behavior acceptable today.
Are you trying to tell me that morality is subjective in the biblical eye? Slavery racism and sexism were never right, is never right, and the bible if it gave a damn would bloody well say so. How do I know that? Because it has been explicit and detailed on so many less important moral issues.... like consensual s3x between adults, like masturbation, like working on the sabbath.
Basically, Paul and Jesus had tons of opportunity to point out he immorality of slave ownership - but NEVER took it. You could rant all you like about how 'slavery was different back then' - but at the end of the day, its still slavery, and all of your points in regard to this 'old school soft slavery' (LOL) are negated by this:
Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."
- evidence that they took child slaves. thats right. CHILD SLAVE LABOUR.
That's funny - Muslims make the EXACT same argument. This is therefore not an argument in your favor.
I don't think it's an arguement in the first place. I see a poster confirming his own experiences, not shoving it down someone's throat.
I am saying that if the book was a credible moral guide it would have, AT SOME POINT IN ITS 750,000 WORDS, specifically and explicitly stated that racism, sexism and slavery were wrong!
The morality of the bible is not subjective to the 'moral standards' of the times - otherwise homosexuality would not be a sin in countries where it is legal, because it represents the culture of the times - but oh wait unlike slavery, racism and sexism - it hasn't been explicitly outlawed.
I don't care who the books audience WAS, I care about who the audience IS - your Jesus/God mate is omnipotent and omniscient and therefore would have KNOWN that people would be using the book for millenia to come. Therefore - the book, and the speech DID NOT just have a target audience of the jews and the gentiles as Jesus KNEW that the book would be read forever after. AND if Jesus knew that the book was going to be read forever after - then he could have made some CLEAR directions - or provided CLARIFYING REMARKS that specifically referenced the statements and directions that he is clarifying....
Regarding your first paragraph, why must a credible moral guide specifically and explicitly outline anything?
Also, Jesus didn't write the bible...
----------
My pet peeve in religious debate is people taking texts in their utmost literal sense. Has everyone lost the ability to interpret? That's what I suspect a lot of the hardcore fundamentalism (from both Christian and Atheist sides) comes from, taking the rationality and logistics of reason and applying them to religious works. Read The Case for God to see where I'm generally coming from with that. I see attempts to 'prove' or 'disprove' religions through texts to be narrow-minded, certainly annoying at least.
----------
Kraken, as far as advice goes, there are people here that have stated everything far more clearly than what I could say. I'd just like to share some of my personal experience. As far as faith and belief go for me, I'm never solid. My ideas shift constantly, as the path I've chosen doesn't have a set of strict beliefs. I just found that anything we could really say is too narrow; either we don't know or there are exceptions. What worries me about your original post is that you've invested so much into your (former?) belief that you put all stock of life into it. That's totally understandable, but I don't believe it's healthy. From the day to day, I figure that I want to live for the experience. I want to slog through the rough so I can get to the fun bits. I'll fight with my parents, go into depression, isolate myself, or do anything else harmful or negative if it's neccessary, but I do that so I can live on to the next good bit.
It isn't just fun either. I consider my current beliefs and attitudes as pagan, and distinct from that, I take part in Neo-Druidic practices, among others. That's background to something that has driven me spiritually. There are times when I am in nature that awe me. I was hiking through the forests north of Vancouver when I came across the lake. The sun had just crested over the trees, and there was a mist hanging about the lake. The air was chill, it made me feel vital. I stood on the shore and was stricken with awe; whether the beauty or otherwise. That felt amazing, and I've explored that reverance and feeling further in my paganism, but the fact that I'm pagan is beside the point. The point is that there are amazing things that happen to us, and life is worth living for those moments.
One last point is that I see the classic atheist/christian divide theme in the thread (there are exceptions.) Ensure that you keep an open mind when carrying yourself in life. If you don't feel comfortable being christian, or atheist, remember to break yourself of that duality. There are other religions and practices, theories and spiritualities. There are a hundred or more shades to every 'camp.'
In whatever path you end up taking, in religion or life in general, I wish you good fortune and good health.
oh, and your two passages: lets just put their surrounding passages with them to put them in context, shall we?
You'll see below thatyeah, sure exodus 21:16 shouldn't steal a man to sell him, but that the same passae, exodus 21:7 says you can sell your daughter - and the very next line exodus 21:17 says you should be put to death for cursing your mother and father. So how the hell should i take any of this seriously? if you think 21:16 is a good defense, can I not claim 21:7 and 21:17 as a good offense?
Exodus 21
1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.
12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.
14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.
15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
or lets look At the other one you quoted; seems to have nothing to do with slavery
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
You forget that the context was different that that time, also a lot of rules where tossed out the window because as Jesus stated "The hearts of men were hardened." and thus he came to rectify those things. Why was divorce and slavery allowed? Because Moses allowed it. Why did Moses allowed it? Because people started to ***** and moan to him and in order to maintain the peace, he was forced to allow these things.
Jesus was also human, therefore, he stepped down from that position when he humbled himself from god to man out of choice, to try and bridge back together the relationship of god and mankind. Thus, he cannot exactly know everything. Even when asked "When will the kingdom of god come?" he responded with "Only the father knows."
Also, remember that the Bible was indeed written by man. Did man know how Genesis occurred? Does man literally know what will happen in the Apocalypse, that fire and angels and demons will rain ruin from the sky? Did the death of every first born in Exodus happen the wrath of god? No, we cannot fully take that in the literal sense as these discourses can be interpreted in their own way in a logical sense. Heck, there was a time where Jesus had said: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother...he cannot be my disciple." and also to leave everythign and follow him. But does that mean you have to hate your parents or superiors in order to be saved? Does that mean you have to abandon all hints of worldly life? No, that would be contradictory to "Honor thy father and mother." and common sense as we do need our worldly life, our earthy needs and responsibilities. It simply meansnot to become too attached in worldly affairs, maintain a sense of moderation in our worldly life while also focusing in our relationship with God. The Bible, and majority of similar readings out there, Philosophical and Theological, should not be taken literally and should be read in between the lines.
I don't think it's an arguement in the first place. I see a poster confirming his own experiences, not shoving it down someone's throat.
Regarding your first paragraph, why must a credible moral guide specifically and explicitly outline anything?
Also, Jesus didn't write the bible...
because (from what i am *told*) Jesus is god, and god is omnipotent and omniscient - that makes him RESPONSIBLE for it. His omniscience ensures that he knows the book will be used as a moral guide, simply as it will be considered his word. and his omnipotence ensures
Basically, if god didnt want what is in the bible said IT WOULDNT BE IN THE BIBLE because he is ultimately responsible as an omniscient and omnipotent being.
because (from what i am *told*) Jesus is god, and god is omnipotent and omniscient - that makes him RESPONSIBLE for it. His omniscience ensures that he knows the book will be used as a moral guide, simply as it will be considered his word. and his omnipotence ensures
Basically, if god didnt want what is in the bible said IT WOULDNT BE IN THE BIBLE because he is ultimately responsible as an omniscient and omnipotent being.
Again, Jesus did not write the Bible. Remember, people wrote the Bible, heck a lot of stuff came after he died so who knows what is there. If he did intervene in anything we did our world would be extremely different. God's language, so to speak, is different from ours. We cannot fully comprehend this superior being and whatever messages we pick up from him, is comprehended differently, seeing the different religions around the world, why people have different ideas of the divine because they pick up the signals differently.
Two, when Jesus became human, he stepped down, so to speak, and humbled himself into human form, therefore he cannot have these god-like properties in human form, nor the very least, his miracles can be taken into a different context altogether.
Again, Jesus did not write the Bible. Remember, people wrote the Bible, heck a lot of stuff came after he died so who knows what is there. If he did intervene in anything we did our world would be extremely different. God's language, so to speak, is different from ours. We cannot fully comprehend this superior being and whatever messages we pick up from him, is comprehended differently, seeing the different religions around the world, why people have different ideas of the divine because they pick up the signals differently.
Two, when Jesus became human, he stepped down, so to speak, and humbled himself into human form, therefore he cannot have these god-like properties in human form, nor the very least, his miracles can be taken into a different context altogether.
i don't think you have quite thought through the meaning of "omnipotent and omniscience" - here is a hint.
even if he gave up those powers to create a human version of himself while simultaneously still being god above..... before he became human, became jesus - he would have been able to PERFECTLY predict the outcome of everything that was about to happen. Get it? Omniscient - "KNOWS EVERYTHING" - is this ringing in your head yet?
Omnipotent - has the power, therefore the dominion, therefore the RESONISIBILITY of all things that happen. because anything and everything happens only if he allows it to... understood?
Intervention? are you mental?
I am pretty sure he dosn't have a problem with 'intervention' - otherwise he wouldn't have
a/ sent jesus in the first place
b/ talked to moses and a miriad of other people before him
c/ encourage everyone to pray to him, as if it will influence the future.
God is pro-intervention
God's language is different from ours? oh really? so an OMNIPOTENT BEING cant communicate with his own creations?
this is hysterical. you are saying things that an ALL POWERFUL being can and cant, will and wont do.
I wonder if the way I see the current argument is the way most people see it when I get into arguments. It's definitely something interesting to spectate.
/popcorn
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Really though, how many atheists actually claim to know that God doesn't exist? I think every single atheist I've talked with or read from, with the exception of kids just doing it to be rebellious, is agnostic as well as atheistic on the topic of God. Maybe God (or gods) exist, but they don't believe any do.
Well, I can't claim to know based on any rational, scientific evidence. Science in general is agnostic on the subject: there's no reason to believe it, but no reason to disbelieve it. But as I said, I hold it as a religious belief that there are no gods of any kind that either exist outside the universe, and if such a "godlike" thing exists within our universe, then it can be explained by rational means (just because we don't understand something doesn't mean we can never understand it).
In short, Yahweh (for the slow kids in the class, that's the actual name of the Christian/Jewish/Islamic god) is entirely fictional.
Completely false. Buddhism and Christianity are in no way compatible.
Not a value judgment on Buddhism, and not saying you can't find common ground between them, I'm just saying that the two religions are completely different, and in so many ways opposite in outlook.
I can thank anyone for their prespective on something it doesn't mean that i am going to listen to it. there is a bit of a difference.
More so when that advice could be considered toxic to the person in question.
Yep i agree he needs to find his own answers. Yet at the same time he has many questions to ask. so when you have those questions who do you go to? someone that actually knows the answer or someone that posts this type of non-sense.
as someone in another thread said you don't go to non-christains for religious advice.
Only to a non-religious person they are. even biblically they are accurate and are very much founded.
I think we know what a mind and spirit are or at least we know what they are so why should i have to define something that we already know?
What is a person without a body? what is a person without a brain? what is a person without a spirit?
Why do perfectly healthy people commit suicide? why do people that are mentally stable do things to harm themselves? there is more to it than just what we perceive on the outside.
It is very easy to tell when a person is in sync with themselves. these people are full of life and joy and generally on the happy side of things even if something isn't going as plan.
it is also very easy to tell the people that are broken in some way. either physically broken or mentally broken or spiritually broken. these people tend to suffer more from depression among other things. we are talking long bouts of depression not just you just don't feel good for some reason.
Right now Kraken is fighting a spiritual battle. These can be dangerous as they can leave a person very tired, drawn and questioning their every decision in life.
Eph 6:12 has been popping up a lot lately since i first mentioned it a while ago. so far the verse has popped up 3 times in the past week.
Faith is an important part but just one piece of the puzzle. It isn't just by faith alone. there is more needed here than just faith. which is why i recommended a good local pastor or fellow christain group of some kind to go to.
It isn't confusing when you understand what it is. you are more than just the sum of your parts whether you want to believe it or not.
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So, uh, yeah, it does.
*edit @ response*
Yeah, sometimes you have people give you advice and ignore it. I know! I've done it before too! I'm willing to bet most people have. But here, the creator of the thread is literally saying "I need to listen to Teia and these other people in order to figure out what I'm looking to figure out". Unless Kraken is lying [which I would doubt], he's listening to Teia.
WHAT?!? If you have religious problems, to only go to the believers on one religion seems like the stupidest thing you could possibly do. If you need to reaffirm your faith within itself, that's something else, but staying isolated is possibly the worst coping mechanism possible.
[skipping the mind/body/spirit debate]
Just want to say here that this is true, and you need to be careful of what you do when involved in spiritual crises of any kind: acting rashly without a full understanding of the things involved can be dangerous. [In other words, a long '+1'.]
And another +1 to this part. Faith cannot solve anything alone because of humanity's annoying propensity to curiosity and reasoning. Talking to a pastor or similar figure may be helpful. Remember that the Bible was written by fallible men who may have misinterpreted God's word, so you don't need to believe in everything in the Bible to be a "true Christian" or truly believe in god - and that believing something for selfish reasons isn't necessarily a bad thing. In fact, you may be able to use your faith to find a larger purpose in life that is more than a lifeline from death.
Though I don't get that comfort from believing something that feels oddly made up [IMHO of course!] ... but to each his own. No belief is wrong to hold, I feel, as long as it's used positively.
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
Actually, non-Christians are a very good source of advice seeing as we're not tied so deeply into faith that we can't see the forest for the trees. We can tell the difference between what is (to us anyway) a little bit of harmless make-believe and harmful delusion.
I don't give two ☺☺☺☺s about what the bible says. The bible was written by humans thousands of years ago. I want real, factual backing for this crap you're spouting, because bad approaches to mental health can be devastating and I can't stand to see someone like you possibly be taken seriously when you're so full of it that you're squirting it out your ears.
I'm sure you wholeheartedly believe this spirit/mind/body nonsense. But you certainly can't back it without quoting the bible (actually, I searched it and couldn't find anything, so you might want to point me at the specific verses that back your claims). You're intentionally blinding yourself with your faith, and that is a terrible thing. You're taking the view of the god of the gaps, where just because you don't understand something, the answer has to be in religion. But the world doesn't work that way. It operates on scientific principles, and this applies to the mind as well—this is why psychology can help him. Taking one of these would have about the same effect as faith, anyway.
The only reason to seek help from pastors and religious group is if you specifically want the religious aspect of their help, because otherwise a trained professional will be able to get much more done with psychology. So by claiming all this "spiritual battle" nonsense, you're throwing it entirely into the court of faith, which seems to be against what you're claiming should be done (i.e. your claims that faith is only one part of it). So... I'm just going based on what you're doing rather than what you're simply claiming, here.
Ephesians 6:12 doesn't mean ☺☺☺☺ all. You can't go about cherry-picking bible verses that suit you while disregarding the ones that don't. Ephesians 6:12 isn't relevant in the modern day and age, exactly the same as Ephesians 6:5-8, Ephesians 5:22-24, and everything else people throw around verbatim. If you want to claim that the overall spirit of these books is important, I won't stop you, but there's absolutely no logical basis in the kind of cherry-picking you engage in.
Alternatively, listen to Ephesians 4:29 and only say things that are actually helpful. Not just things you only think are helpful.
Not really. i have had plenty of people give me advice in the past that well i didn't listen to it for some reason or another. (I wasn't refering to him specifically.)
I probably should have said you don't go to non-christains on spiritual matters. there are concepts that they do not understand or do not have knowledge on that can lead to dangerous paths.
that is the place where he needs guidance to get out of. it is more than just a lifeline in fact to view it only as a life line is well very very narrow.
it can also lead to these types of situations.
Teia Rabishu
Others in this thread have already pointed out why you are wrong so i am not going to continue. i have no need to argue with you any further. you really don't know what you are talking about in these matters.
you do not exist without a body and your you body cannot function without a brain and your brain cannot function without a soul. all of these are biblical truths that if you had any knowledge of (which you don't) then you would know this.
pyschology is only good if he has a mental or physical issue. in this case he doesn't. he has a spiritual issue. he is at a cross roads and one that i have seen before. you do not understand because you do not see with a spiritual mindset but a physical one.
so i am not going to be argueing with you anymore. it serves no purpose at all and well others have already accomplished enough in that regard.
------------------------------------------
This is a book that you have heard of and almost every person in the world has read it from one point or another. pick up the book pilgrims progress. It is very much a book for you to read in this point in time for your life.
yes it is a kids book of sorts but it is a book of TRUTH, and I feel that truth is what i needed most at this point.
that is a question that many people seek and few people find. i know what it is to be lost and looking for answers. talking to fellow christains and talking to my pastor really helped in getting some things of my life on track.
talking with a christain councelor really helped as well.
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Some of you are calling him conceded... That is rediculous.
All he is doing, is yearning, begging, pleading, searching, screaming for someone, just someone to actually back up their claims with some supporting evidence.
While having the common decency to say "I don't know exactly how to fix his problem - WHY DONT WE RECOMMEND HIM TO PROFESSIONALS FOR HELP" rather than making wild guesses based upon unfounded belief systems.
Think what you are all recommending - here is a translation into direct language:
"i have no idea there is a God, but ASSUMING my guess that Jebus is real is correct, then here is my ONE PERSONAL INTERPRETATION of the ADVICE that is not personal to you and written thousands of years before you were born"
Funny how the people who think they KNOW the creator of the univers, have a RELATIONSHIP with him, and think they KNOW what is best for Kraken are calling the guy who is saying......
go and see an expert who is far more qualified that any of us
...... the 'arrogant' one.
Besides, I have never met a Christian who hasn't told me that if i would just "genuinely reach out for God" then Jesus would save me - well guess what people - Kraken has clearly been doing just that, and been left searching...
Now why don't you go back to your beloved book of morality that takes the time to outlaw victimless crimes like sex before marriage and working on the sabbath or saying '&%$# jesus'.... but does not take the time to specifically advise against -
1. racism
2. slavery, or
3. sexism
...and the fact that i could quote mine the bible to show it actually instructs on exactly how to participate in those 3 exact evils may not mean for sure the bible does support those evils - but it is very, very, very disconcerting.
lol christians claiming moral high ground. lol
Well, you're not even really "arguing" to begin with if all you can do is clamp your hands over your ears and chant "la la la I can't hear you" by repeating your baseless and unfounded claims as if they're undeniable and imminently obvious fact when in reality they're utter nonsense.
Really. Go find me something that actually proves these "spirits" of yours really exist. I'll even shout that I was wrong from the highest rooftops if you somehow manage to prove that what you're saying is true (and I mean real proof, not this "circular logic while quoting the bible" bull☺☺☺☺ you've been giving me).
And finally, shifting the focus onto yourself like that is very selfish of you. Kraken's problems are not the same problems you had. It's the height of conceit to presume that they are and that what worked for you is going to work for him. But I guess it's easier to do what you're doing than offer real help (and apparently it's easy to forget Eph 4:29 at that).
The pronoun you're looking for is "her."
stop calling HER conceded
Remember how the context of that time was, their standards were not the same as ours now. They didn't have full understanding of what human equality and dignity was at that time. Heck, they never knew what those words were or meant and were simply following the very patriarchal culture that was stuck with the very strict religion and neighbored by enemies, this was the natural thing for them to do to maintain the status quo/peace, you can't blame them for not knowing better. What Jesus wanted was to rewrite how society was that time, bringing people together, eliminating barriers and correcting what as wrong in society through his teachings.
And no, not all Christians claim the moral high ground. You can see some very vocal ones like the big Televalgelists and bigwig writers and officials of the institution, but looking at the big wigs and the vocal ones does not make it a generalization of the whole. That would be like saying, there are extremist Muslims out there who want to kill us, therefore all Muslims are dangerous.
Sasky for the Sig.
I am in your [PACK]. Watching you... do... something.
um, lol - but JESUS should have known better. JESUS/GOD, not the people of the day, is surely responsible for what is and isn't in his own stupid holy book.
The question is not why did a bunch of sheep herders fail to address slavery and racism - the question is WHY DID JESUS FAIL TO CONDEMN slavery and racism.
The context of time is irrelevant when you are discussing the 'godly' realm of absolute morality.
This is a frequent excuse Christians use, but it is totally nonsensical, an omnipotent lord is always going to be ultimately responsible for the messages distributed in his holy book. YOUR lord has chosen to specifically outlaw consensual sex between adults, but not make specific reference to slavery, racism or sexism.
yeah, then why didn't he 're-write' for them a bunch of sins against racism sexism and slavery.
great work jebus, great work *slow clap for effect*
he is allegedly infinitely 'good', omnipotent, and omniscient - sorry but you cant make excuses for a ☺☺☺☺ up from someone with those powers.
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you have completely missed the point. The point is that Jesus would have said "Once we have created a truly Christian society we will abolish slavery, racism and sexism - however, society is not ready for that, so here are the next steps" if that is what Jesus meant.
How arrogant I would be to assume Jesus meant things he didn't actually say. That would take some conceit - to assume that you knew what Jesus 'meant' - even on topics he didn't discuss. ah, the pretentiousness.
The point is that the bible is EXPLICIT IN DETAIL about hundreds of other sins, what defines them, how they are to be punished, in what context and so on and so on - but never, ever, ever, gives the simple, easily understood - no bull statement "Racism is a sin" or "keeping slaves is a sin". You know, like the lord felt the need to say
"being gay is an abomination" - how the hell could that be more important than "don't be racist"
Jesus said you should follow the laws of the old testament, whether you like it or not.
Matthew 5:18-19
Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 16:17
It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
- LOL so that isn't immoral? hahahaha
Yeah, but in jesus day, slavery was cool, cos you know, it was only for six years.
or maybe God told people to take slaves?
Genesis 25:44-46
God tells the Israelites to make slaves out of their neighbors and their families. The "heathens" and "strangers" are to be their possessions forever. 25:44-46
or how God's ultimate example of a good man - Job, had slaves
Genesis 1:14-17
To start off God and Satan's gruesome game, Job's slaves and animals are killed.
O Rly?
Proverbs 29:19
A servant will not be corrected by words: for though he understand he will not answer.
I don't understand the bible? Why do all Christians assume that agnostics haven't read the whole thing front to back? Probably cos most have you have not done that yourself.
i think you are the one who cannot read. The bible has many quotes that insinuate that both slavery is acceptable - and that slavery is not acceptable
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/slavery.html#
it shouldn't be so confusing. a ninth grader with a bad attitude could write a better moral guide than that book.
I haven't missed anything. He already addressed those issues and i have shown you where he addressed them.
i have also shown you where the bible addresses those issues as well. your failure to understand culturally what happens is not my fault nor the bibles.
I have shown you where those were addressed. so i really don't know what you are talking about.
Concepts of racism didn't exist back then and in the hebrew language there was no word for it. in those days you were either jew or gentile.
Seeing how Christ was privy to hanging out with gentiles and other such people on a regular basis i would say that he was.
i guess you missed the part where people put themselves into slavery by their own choice.
http://sermononthemountcommentary.blogspot.com/2007/04/jesus-and-law-matthew-518-20.html
is not the correct chapter as there are not 44 verses in genesis 25.
http://www.rationalchristianity.net/slavery_ot.html#general
gives all the verse's on the laws regarding the treatment of slaves.
actually over the years i have. several times in fact.
actually i can read just fine. you on the other hand still fail to recognize the cultural impact at the time. you also fail to read the correction that i have given you on this but the above link will correct that as well.
sorry but the bible is to be taken into context of the time in which it was written for a large part. also the cultural references to things.
i will say it one more time. in jewish society people put themselves into slavery of their own free will. either because they were poor or because they owed a debt that had to be repaid but couldn't pay it. in any event i had to correct your misinformation other than that i am done with this.
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Anyone who is arguing on this thread, you need to seriously look at yourself and think about why you are still arguing about this, especially here. All this was supposed to be was people talking about how they deal with God, not questioning what other people have said. But on the very first page this devolved into an argument, spurred on by both sides.
Grow up and let it go or move it to debate.
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I agree. This is the reason I don't normally participate in these threads. I don't think we've heard from Kraken in several pages. I'm not sure he got much help here. Doubt is one of the most frustrating places to be. Your worldview is shifting and you aren't sure where to place your trust.
You can deny God exists, call the Bible a hoax, complain about topics on which the Bible disagrees with societal norms all you want. You'll have a hard time convincing me of things I know to be true: that the experiences in my life where I've cried out to God and He answered, where things prophesied occured, where I spoke words I didn't know, where I stood on faith and my pain went away, and times that I have shared these blessings with other believers from around the world who also know His power, His peace, and his mercy. There are too many for them to be circumstance, and the testimony too loud for the world to drown it out. I wish everyone could know it, but I know no one can be forced.
Kraken - if you're still reading, I pray you do find peace.
That's funny - Muslims make the EXACT same argument. This is therefore not an argument in your favor.
With regards to your claims, It's also interesting that he is NOT answering Kraken despite his sincerity.
apologies - its Leviticus 25: 44
sigh
again, you have missed the point - I am not arguing whether or not the book as written was for a bunch of sheep herding uneducated simpletons from 2000 years ago. I am saying that if the book was a credible moral guide it would have, AT SOME POINT IN ITS 750,000 WORDS, specifically and explicitly stated that racism, sexism and slavery were wrong!
The morality of the bible is not subjective to the 'moral standards' of the times - otherwise homosexuality would not be a sin in countries where it is legal, because it represents the culture of the times - but oh wait unlike slavery, racism and sexism - it hasn't been explicitly outlawed.
I don't care who the books audience WAS, I care about who the audience IS - your Jesus/God mate is omnipotent and omniscient and therefore would have KNOWN that people would be using the book for millenia to come. Therefore - the book, and the speech DID NOT just have a target audience of the jews and the gentiles as Jesus KNEW that the book would be read forever after. AND if Jesus knew that the book was going to be read forever after - then he could have made some CLEAR directions - or provided CLARIFYING REMARKS that specifically referenced the statements and directions that he is clarifying....
....ninth graders have worked out, or been taught how to to that in their terrible attempts at class essays.
The mere fact that there is conjecture over the treatment of slaves in the bible - but never a specific outlawing of the practice. Is all I need to show. Thats all I am saying.
wow, just wow. You think they didn't have racism back then? really. omg that is the funniest thing I have heard all year. You think that labelling all people that are ot jewish as 'goyim' is not an issue of descrimination and 'subjugation' (such as racism, sexism, slavery)
HOw come then, Jebus never said "verily I say unto thee, thou shalt never refer to men with the terms of subjugation, such as goyim" (might have stopped the christians of the american south from using the n-word and keeping slaves for so long.) some moral guide you got there.
see above, i recognise the cultural barriers, but only because jesus (assuming he existed at all as written) was just another everyday man - what i am saying is that Jesus (if he was the lord) should have known better, and provided a better moral guide. And given that you are the one who thinks jesus is perfect in every way - why do you not assume that if he didnt clarify what he meant as the eternal laws of behavior - that he would still find that behavior acceptable today.
Are you trying to tell me that morality is subjective in the biblical eye? Slavery racism and sexism were never right, is never right, and the bible if it gave a damn would bloody well say so. How do I know that? Because it has been explicit and detailed on so many less important moral issues.... like consensual s3x between adults, like masturbation, like working on the sabbath.
That's nice - you'll notice how it dosn't contradict anything I am saying. so its irrelevant
read this too
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl2.htm
Basically, Paul and Jesus had tons of opportunity to point out he immorality of slave ownership - but NEVER took it. You could rant all you like about how 'slavery was different back then' - but at the end of the day, its still slavery, and all of your points in regard to this 'old school soft slavery' (LOL) are negated by this:
Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."
- evidence that they took child slaves. thats right. CHILD SLAVE LABOUR.
I don't think it's an arguement in the first place. I see a poster confirming his own experiences, not shoving it down someone's throat.
Regarding your first paragraph, why must a credible moral guide specifically and explicitly outline anything?
Also, Jesus didn't write the bible...
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My pet peeve in religious debate is people taking texts in their utmost literal sense. Has everyone lost the ability to interpret? That's what I suspect a lot of the hardcore fundamentalism (from both Christian and Atheist sides) comes from, taking the rationality and logistics of reason and applying them to religious works. Read The Case for God to see where I'm generally coming from with that. I see attempts to 'prove' or 'disprove' religions through texts to be narrow-minded, certainly annoying at least.
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Kraken, as far as advice goes, there are people here that have stated everything far more clearly than what I could say. I'd just like to share some of my personal experience. As far as faith and belief go for me, I'm never solid. My ideas shift constantly, as the path I've chosen doesn't have a set of strict beliefs. I just found that anything we could really say is too narrow; either we don't know or there are exceptions. What worries me about your original post is that you've invested so much into your (former?) belief that you put all stock of life into it. That's totally understandable, but I don't believe it's healthy. From the day to day, I figure that I want to live for the experience. I want to slog through the rough so I can get to the fun bits. I'll fight with my parents, go into depression, isolate myself, or do anything else harmful or negative if it's neccessary, but I do that so I can live on to the next good bit.
It isn't just fun either. I consider my current beliefs and attitudes as pagan, and distinct from that, I take part in Neo-Druidic practices, among others. That's background to something that has driven me spiritually. There are times when I am in nature that awe me. I was hiking through the forests north of Vancouver when I came across the lake. The sun had just crested over the trees, and there was a mist hanging about the lake. The air was chill, it made me feel vital. I stood on the shore and was stricken with awe; whether the beauty or otherwise. That felt amazing, and I've explored that reverance and feeling further in my paganism, but the fact that I'm pagan is beside the point. The point is that there are amazing things that happen to us, and life is worth living for those moments.
One last point is that I see the classic atheist/christian divide theme in the thread (there are exceptions.) Ensure that you keep an open mind when carrying yourself in life. If you don't feel comfortable being christian, or atheist, remember to break yourself of that duality. There are other religions and practices, theories and spiritualities. There are a hundred or more shades to every 'camp.'
In whatever path you end up taking, in religion or life in general, I wish you good fortune and good health.
You'll see below thatyeah, sure exodus 21:16 shouldn't steal a man to sell him, but that the same passae, exodus 21:7 says you can sell your daughter - and the very next line exodus 21:17 says you should be put to death for cursing your mother and father. So how the hell should i take any of this seriously? if you think 21:16 is a good defense, can I not claim 21:7 and 21:17 as a good offense?
or lets look At the other one you quoted; seems to have nothing to do with slavery
Jesus was also human, therefore, he stepped down from that position when he humbled himself from god to man out of choice, to try and bridge back together the relationship of god and mankind. Thus, he cannot exactly know everything. Even when asked "When will the kingdom of god come?" he responded with "Only the father knows."
Also, remember that the Bible was indeed written by man. Did man know how Genesis occurred? Does man literally know what will happen in the Apocalypse, that fire and angels and demons will rain ruin from the sky? Did the death of every first born in Exodus happen the wrath of god? No, we cannot fully take that in the literal sense as these discourses can be interpreted in their own way in a logical sense. Heck, there was a time where Jesus had said: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother...he cannot be my disciple." and also to leave everythign and follow him. But does that mean you have to hate your parents or superiors in order to be saved? Does that mean you have to abandon all hints of worldly life? No, that would be contradictory to "Honor thy father and mother." and common sense as we do need our worldly life, our earthy needs and responsibilities. It simply meansnot to become too attached in worldly affairs, maintain a sense of moderation in our worldly life while also focusing in our relationship with God. The Bible, and majority of similar readings out there, Philosophical and Theological, should not be taken literally and should be read in between the lines.
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because (from what i am *told*) Jesus is god, and god is omnipotent and omniscient - that makes him RESPONSIBLE for it. His omniscience ensures that he knows the book will be used as a moral guide, simply as it will be considered his word. and his omnipotence ensures
Basically, if god didnt want what is in the bible said IT WOULDNT BE IN THE BIBLE because he is ultimately responsible as an omniscient and omnipotent being.
Again, Jesus did not write the Bible. Remember, people wrote the Bible, heck a lot of stuff came after he died so who knows what is there. If he did intervene in anything we did our world would be extremely different. God's language, so to speak, is different from ours. We cannot fully comprehend this superior being and whatever messages we pick up from him, is comprehended differently, seeing the different religions around the world, why people have different ideas of the divine because they pick up the signals differently.
Two, when Jesus became human, he stepped down, so to speak, and humbled himself into human form, therefore he cannot have these god-like properties in human form, nor the very least, his miracles can be taken into a different context altogether.
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i don't think you have quite thought through the meaning of "omnipotent and omniscience" - here is a hint.
even if he gave up those powers to create a human version of himself while simultaneously still being god above..... before he became human, became jesus - he would have been able to PERFECTLY predict the outcome of everything that was about to happen. Get it? Omniscient - "KNOWS EVERYTHING" - is this ringing in your head yet?
Omnipotent - has the power, therefore the dominion, therefore the RESONISIBILITY of all things that happen. because anything and everything happens only if he allows it to... understood?
Intervention? are you mental?
I am pretty sure he dosn't have a problem with 'intervention' - otherwise he wouldn't have
a/ sent jesus in the first place
b/ talked to moses and a miriad of other people before him
c/ encourage everyone to pray to him, as if it will influence the future.
God is pro-intervention
God's language is different from ours? oh really? so an OMNIPOTENT BEING cant communicate with his own creations?
this is hysterical. you are saying things that an ALL POWERFUL being can and cant, will and wont do.
FML
/popcorn