However don't use this as justification for not being able to function normally. I know too many super awkward people who use their nerdiness as a scapegoat for why they have trouble functioning normally with people. It's a cop out really.
You'd probably be a really cool, funny, and interesting dude if you actually thought yourself capable of being one. Stop killing your pursuits before they've even begun.
It's one thing to be into nerdy hobbies, but another to let that warp your identity and define what you can and can't do.
However don't use this as justification for not being able to function normally. I know too many super awkward people who use their nerdiness as a scapegoat for why they have trouble functioning normally with people. It's a cop out really.
You'd probably be a really cool, funny, and interesting dude if you actually thought yourself capable of being one. Stop killing your pursuits before they've even begun.
It's one thing to be into nerdy hobbies, but another to let that warp your identity and define what you can and can't do.
A very good point, not being normal =/= socially akward, I watch anime and play magic and you'd never guess looking at me.
A very good point, not being normal =/= socially akward, I watch anime and play magic and you'd never guess looking at me.
A girl I just met a few weeks ago is exactly the same... shes a cheerleader that does tennis on the side and and is one of the people that outwardly just seems at a higher social standing point. Learned later after chilling with her and a few others at the movies that she plays DnD, watches anime, reads manga, and is preparing her newest cosplay for a con coming up and is an all around chill person in general...
But back to on topic!
1. Show some confidence
2. Make contact with said target
3. More more contact with said target
4. Make even more contact with said target
5. Make more intimate contact with said target
6. Make even more intimate contact with said target
7. Said target acquired, mission accomplished. Good work soldier!
I think I'm sticking with girls who actually talk more from now on...
Why? So what if she looks at you in an odd way? It's almost certainly because it's just out of the ordinary; do it more often and she'll get used to it. You'll at least get some kind of actual response to get progress from.
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My anecdotal evidence disagrees with yours! EXPLAIN THAT!
A very good point, not being normal =/= socially akward, I watch anime and play magic and you'd never guess looking at me.
You strike me, if you'll forgive the odd comparison, as being in the same vein as the straight would-be LGBT allies I run across on a semi-regular basis who proclaim their heterosexuality very stridently. Because while they're totally supportive they just don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about them, because that would be bad because they'd be ashamed to be actually associated with the people they're defending.
In short, you practice a very backhanded kind of acceptance for "not normal." You basically say "don't be afraid to be not normal, so long as everyone else thinks you're normal." So what if someone's awkward? Not everyone is totally relaxed in every social setting. At least the OP wants to work through it.
You strike me, if you'll forgive the odd comparison, as being in the same vein as the straight would-be LGBT allies I run across on a semi-regular basis who proclaim their heterosexuality very stridently. Because while they're totally supportive they just don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about them, because that would be bad because they'd be ashamed to be actually associated with the people they're defending.
In short, you practice a very backhanded kind of acceptance for "not normal." You basically say "don't be afraid to be not normal, so long as everyone else thinks you're normal." So what if someone's awkward? Not everyone is totally relaxed in every social setting. At least the OP wants to work through it.
You bring up your LGBT connection in enough of your threads that it is very noticeable, more than is really called for. You sound like all the people I know who always mention their 'gay friend' because they want to seem accepting but really just either want the 'cool' status for being 'accepting'. A good friend of mine from High School is transgender. I have several gay and lesbian friends. But I don't need to remind people in every other thread how cool and accepting I am. I also don't bring it up where it isn't necessary, because to me they aren't special cases that need my defending.
All linvala was doing was acknowledging that not being normal, that is being into magic or being a huge nerd, doesn't mean that you are socially awkward, and used himself as an example. He was merely pointing out that the stereotypes don't fit. The truth is that very few magic player truly fall into the uber-nerd stereotype that people unfamiliar with Magic, D&D, etc. associate with fat socially awkward loners. Forgive him if he doesn't want to be assumed to be a social reject. He didn't say anything about hiding or being ashamed of his hobby. I'm the same way - a volunteer firefighter, a emergency manager and I'm loud and outspoken. You'd think I was into football and NASCAR if you met me. I also don't flaunt my nerdiness with nerdy t-shirts or the like, but if you walked into my house, you'd know immediately that I was a gigantic nerd. I don't lie about my hobbies, but I also don't find it necessary to bring them up just for the purpose of defending them to people. Fighting every battle against misconceptions that comes along is stupid.
You realize that I'm LGBT myself, right? Me bringing it up like that is less "look at how accepting I am, aren't I so awesome?" and more "those issues have incredible relevance to my life so I bring them up because, to use my last post as an example, it was honestly the first comparison I thought of." Call me a bad person or whatever you like (and I'll even admit I can often be one of those LGBT activists that seems to make it the most visible thing about them), but don't lump me in with straight people always harping on about their gay friends.
Also you also realize that linvala went on about "hiding the crazy" in another thread, so his opinions on that issue are already quite clear.
Confidence? What is this "Confidence" you speak of? *Looks it up on Wikipedia* OOOOHHHH!!!! The thing that was stolen from me when I started public school!
Yeah... I dont have that anymore... *Goes and cries in the corner while cuddling stuffed Snow Leopard.*
How do I fake it?
Nothing build confidence like rejection. Tell yourself "a year from now, nothing I am doing now will matter" and just go for it. If you get shot down, try again with someone else. If that girl shoots you down, try again with somoene else.
10 or so rounds of that, and you'll be so relaxed and won;t care about the response you get, asking girls out will be as easy as pie. And that's the point when the girls will sense your confidence and start saying yes.
There's no secert to it, like anything else in life, it just takes practice. The first few times you try to walk as a baby, you trip and fall. The first few times you try to ride a bike, you crash and bust your ass. The first few time you play MTG, you get combo'ed out on. Everything in life takes practice to get good at. Asking girls out is no different.
You bring up your LGBT connection in enough of your threads that it is very noticeable, more than is really called for. You sound like all the people I know who always mention their 'gay friend' because they want to seem accepting but really just either want the 'cool' status for being 'accepting'. A good friend of mine from High School is transgender. I have several gay and lesbian friends. But I don't need to remind people in every other thread how cool and accepting I am. I also don't bring it up where it isn't necessary, because to me they aren't special cases that need my defending.
All linvala was doing was acknowledging that not being normal, that is being into magic or being a huge nerd, doesn't mean that you are socially awkward, and used himself as an example. He was merely pointing out that the stereotypes don't fit. The truth is that very few magic player truly fall into the uber-nerd stereotype that people unfamiliar with Magic, D&D, etc. associate with fat socially awkward loners. Forgive him if he doesn't want to be assumed to be a social reject. He didn't say anything about hiding or being ashamed of his hobby. I'm the same way - a volunteer firefighter, a emergency manager and I'm loud and outspoken. You'd think I was into football and NASCAR if you met me. I also don't flaunt my nerdiness with nerdy t-shirts or the like, but if you walked into my house, you'd know immediately that I was a gigantic nerd. I don't lie about my hobbies, but I also don't find it necessary to bring them up just for the purpose of defending them to people. Fighting every battle against misconceptions that comes along is stupid.
A very well thought out post
Teia, all I'm saying is you can't use "I'm a nerd" as an excuse to be socially akward, if you walk up to me and ask me "do you watch anime" I'll say yes, some good friends I hang out with watch anime, however I don't go around going "look at me I like anime", yes, you are supposed to hide the crazy, not get rid of it, just hide it, a person should never walk around as an open book.
Not normal doesn't mean that you have to be socially akward, you can not be normal and still act normal. And moonshield is right, too many nerds force the crazy to try to get attention, wear your nekomimi hat at a con, with your anime friends, NOT in the middle of a college campus. Too many people think anime fans go around doing stupid ☺☺☺☺ like that because the smart ones don't go around doing stupid ☺☺☺☺ like playing an eroge in the student union (wanted to hit the kid).
I never said don't do what you love, I never said you have to be normal, what I DID say was that you should act with a decent degree of self restraint about not-so-socially-acceptable-things. The fact that I'd rather watch K-on to march madness doesn't mean I have to do be socially akward stereotypical "nerd".
Fun fact; very few anime fans or magic players are actually the stereotypes, it's just that the stereotypes stand out.
Also Teia, I know you may think you give good advice, but lettuce be reality for a second, I know you have aspurger's, read manga in public, are cisgendered, hang out with primarily GLBT nerds, you are not normal, you have demonstrated through your advice routinely that you really are not a person who should be giving out advice on social situations, I know you probably won't take my advice, but I think it would benefit this forum if you stopped giving romance advice.
Also to the guy who called me a bully, look at his last post before mine and honestly tell me that post doesn't reek of "pay attention to me", I am not the nicest guy on this forum, not even close, but my advice is ussually pretty spot-on, just not phrased in the nice tones guys like infinity alarm use.
I know you have aspurger's, read manga in public, are cisgendered, hang out with primarily GLBT nerds
One of those is patently false.
Anyway, I'm still not sure what kind of crazy really needs to be hidden, aside from things like how you're a lolicon. But in my case, as far as watching anime or being pansexual or whatever else goes, I don't rub peoples' faces in it in real life, but I don't act like it's something to be hidden, either. No point. I'm not the kind of person who wears cat ears around campus, nor would I ever play an h-game at school. But at the same time I don't see why I should look down on people who do. They certainly aren't harming anyone, and "don't act stereotypical" is just useless victim-blaming. Again to use the LGBT comparisons, it's like complaining about a gay guy who's "too flaming" or whatever, as if someone who doesn't fit into the mainstream must conform to others' expectations of how their group ought to act.
I'm also unsure as to where I said that "I'm a nerd" is an acceptable excuse for being socially awkward, although if I really must play the devil's advocate here, I'd argue that being shunned and having your identity policed by others is a very good reason to be awkward outside your comfort zone.
Got up my courage enough to say hello... she just kind of looked at me funny...
Assuming you didn't misinterpret and she wasn't just initializing self-defense mechanism 157, it's still a good thing. At least 75% (probably much higher) of men have some degree of anxiety/shyness when it comes to approaching women they are attracted to. One of the most direct ways of coping with any kind of anxiety is desensitization: forcing yourself to do what is uncomfortable. And you did it; you gained something and lost nothing.
Truthfully if you are at least fairly normal looking and don't do something strange when you approach, a good majority of females will at least hear you out. When they don't, just assume that it's because they are having a bad day or that they're just a cold *****. It's not you, it's them.
Course' YMMV in high-school/early college, but I'd still recommended males of any post-puberty age get over shyness with girls ASAP.
Originally Posted by Anubis_Ravenheart
Yeah... well, we can't say I didn't try...
Got up my courage enough to say hello... she just kind of looked at me funny...
What did you say after that?
No girl hears "hello" and responds with "yes, I'd love to go out with you". Did you actually ask her? Cause if not, you didn't try.
Just walk up and say "Hey, I'd like to know if you want to go out on a date sometime" and see what happens. If she says yes, great, if she says no, you're in the exact same position you are in now. You literally have nothing to lose. Even if she says no, you notched your ability to handle rejection up a bit, so it's really a win win for you
I personally garauntee you, the hardest part of doing this is thinking what to say when a girl says "OK". So make sure you have a date idea planned already.
You realize that I'm LGBT myself, right? Me bringing it up like that is less "look at how accepting I am, aren't I so awesome?" and more "those issues have incredible relevance to my life so I bring them up because, to use my last post as an example, it was honestly the first comparison I thought of." Call me a bad person or whatever you like (and I'll even admit I can often be one of those LGBT activists that seems to make it the most visible thing about them), but don't lump me in with straight people always harping on about their gay friends.
Also you also realize that linvala went on about "hiding the crazy" in another thread, so his opinions on that issue are already quite clear.
I didn't mean to imply you were a bad person, I'm sorry if it came off that way. I was just trying to a.) better clarify what livala was say (as it seemed to me) and b.) point of the silliness of calling someone out the way you did, especially when the situation really didn't warrant bringing it up, and how easily it can get turned around.
And I didn't see the hiding the crazy post, but that's not always a bad idea. When people have a negative stereotype about something, it can be better to expose them to the content of your character before letting them judge you with that all-important first impression based on a stereotype. It also allows you to feel someone else out, too. There is no sense in fighting an uphill battle when you don't have to. People's perceptions don't change because you try to force them to accept you, people's perceptions change because they come to find you are a good person first, and preconceived notions about a stereotype start dissapearing. Getting a law changed is about being loud and proud - changing public perception is about being great people despite what people think. How well a movement manages the transition determines how quickly change occurs.
you are a little bit harsh. Asking a girl like that, without any precedent is not gonna work, especially if she's really shy.
I think he did a good job, but that was only the very first step and he has to keep going!!.
I'd do as other said. Try to engage contact. Whatever happens, you're not gonna loose anything. After all you don't really know if she's THE girl (and there's more chance that she isn't), if she doesn't want to be your friend or isn't interresting in the end, you've lost nothing.
I'm not being harsh at all. No one has any idea what she would say until they ask. She could have a buge crush on the OP and just never have told him about it. Or she could hate his guts and the mear thought of being in the same room as him makes her want to puke. There's only one way to get a valid response to a question, and that's to ask the question.
I'm not a fan of "be her friend first and then try to morph it into a relationship", because you are entering into a uneven situation: you have an ulterior motive, which she is unaware of. That's a recipe for disaster. I also find it to be very dishonest.
If you want to ask her out, ask her out. If she's shy, do it in a polite way, not in a big crowd of people. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be, all you end up doing is building up the event in your head more and more and making it harder and harder to do.
changing public perception is about being great people despite what people think.
There's also an element of "some of us fit the stereotypes, others don't, but despite our differences we're still people too" inherent in not "hiding the crazy." Once again, telling someone that they have to hide things that make them different is telling them that they should be ashamed of their differences, in essence policing normativity. There's a difference between hiding things that are simply inappropriate as a matter of subject (such as being a lolicon - orientation is one thing, fetishes another) versus hiding things that are only inappropriate because others see it as different (such as watching anime).
There's also an element of "some of us fit the stereotypes, others don't, but despite our differences we're still people too" inherent in not "hiding the crazy." Once again, telling someone that they have to hide things that make them different is telling them that they should be ashamed of their differences, in essence policing normativity. There's a difference between hiding things that are simply inappropriate as a matter of subject (such as being a lolicon - orientation is one thing, fetishes another) versus hiding things that are only inappropriate because others see it as different (such as watching anime).
You make a comment about policing normativity, and then at the same time make a value-judgment about a sexual preference? That seems disingenuous. Do you really think lolicons choose to be attracted to images of young girls? I'm honestly confused by your logic. It seems the only dividing line is your opinion on what is appropriate and what is not, while you simultaneously disregarding other people's opinions that may put you in the same category that you lump the lolicon in.
So, in effect, your opinion actually is that it's okay to hide the crazy, as long as it's something you define as weird, instead of anyone else. That's fine - that's how most people work, but it's important to accept that about yourself.
What I am saying is that everyone has different boundaries as to what is appropriate and what is not. You can't throw up a wall around your life and say 'everything in here is acceptable, and you can't judge me for it', and at the same time say 'hey, now that's weird and unacceptable'. You have to accept that something is going to be weird for someone, and that normative values are by their nature subjective.
D&D may just be nerdy and stupid to one person, and devil worship to another. If I have to work with these people, or I have some sort of goal or priority that involves a positive view from these people, I'm not going to reveal something about myself that endangers that. It's common sense. Is it manipulative? Absolutely, but every interaction we have with other people is manipulative, that's the very nature of interaction, we are trying to change something. It's much more effective than drawing imaginary lines in the sand - I simply accept that not everyone shares my views and adjust my behavior around those that don't to bring about the most positive outcome (to me). If I have no need of a person, I will absolutely call them out on something, but I'm not going to talk about my agnostic, moderate views to my super-religious, hardcore liberal coworkers.
So, in effect, your opinion actually is that it's okay to hide the crazy, as long as it's something you define as weird, instead of anyone else. That's fine - that's how most people work, but it's important to accept that about yourself
No, it's more that being a lolicon has a specific cultural judgement associated with it. While I don't personally believe it to be wrong (so long as it doesn't cross into practicing pedophilia, anyway), there is a strong cultural difference in saying "I'm gay and proud of it" versus "I'm a lolicon and proud of it." Is it fair? Not really. But that's the way it goes.
My point was more that things like watching anime are sometimes looked down upon solely for being different than mainstream interests, while things like lolicon are looked down upon for other reasons (in this case, people associating it with pedophilia). If someone wants to try to change that perception, then I'm all for it and support it 100%. It's an uphill battle, but not an impossible one to fight. After all, homosexuality used to be considered a treatable mental illness, nowadays it's the civil rights issue du jour, and in a number of years it'll be no more a contentious issue than race is.
I'm not going to talk about my agnostic, moderate views to my super-religious, hardcore liberal coworkers.
I never said to disregard tact. I'm certainly not, for example, going to toss my sexuality around when it's not even remotely called for. But at the same time, if someone inquires about my boyfriend but the reality is my partner is female, I see no reason to censor myself for them just in case they're homophobic. They asked. They made it relevant. It's their problem if they don't like the answer. Call me foolish if you like, but I'm not a fan of the silent "don't bring it up even when asked" oppression that goes around when normativity is policed by the majority.
Likewise, if I ask linvala what kinds of things he's into and he answers loli, then it's my problem, not his, if I don't like the answer (and for the record, again, I honestly don't care).
No, it's more that being a lolicon has a specific cultural judgement associated with it. While I don't personally believe it to be wrong (so long as it doesn't cross into practicing pedophilia, anyway), there is a strong cultural difference in saying "I'm gay and proud of it" versus "I'm a lolicon and proud of it." Is it fair? Not really. But that's the way it goes.
Thanks, you explain your reasoning a lot better here. I'm personally with you - if it doesn't hurt anyone (like pedophilia does), I think everyone is entitled. However, as you mention, cultural judgments play a huge factor, and while I don't believe it will still be the case in say, 20 years, right now a lot of the nerdy things we do are still looked down on by the general population. My point was that people should understand that they also base their opinions on people based on cultural norms, and to look down on someone becuase
My point was more that things like watching anime are sometimes looked down upon solely for being different than mainstream interests, while things like lolicon are looked down upon for other reasons (in this case, people associating it with pedophilia). If someone wants to try to change that perception, then I'm all for it and support it 100%. It's an uphill battle, but not an impossible one to fight. After all, homosexuality used to be considered a treatable mental illness, nowadays it's the civil rights issue du jour, and in a number of years it'll be no more a contentious issue than race is.
That's fair enough, and I agree with you here. Because we have a poor understanding of Neuroscience, Mental Illness is usually just defined by cultural norms. I personally think the dividing line is so blurry that we can really only define mental illness (or deviant behavior) as something that causes a person's behavior to present a risk to themselves or to others. Homosexuality does not, therefore it is acceptable (to me). Pedophilia, while I don't believe it to be a choice, is dangerous to children.
I arrived at these conclusions because I've date outside my race fairly often. As a white male, this would have been considered deviant by many as little as 50 years ago, and still is by many. Now of course, mixed ethnicity children is the fastest growing group in the US, but at one point it was looked down on.
I never said to disregard tact. I'm certainly not, for example, going to toss my sexuality around when it's not even remotely called for. But at the same time, if someone inquires about my boyfriend but the reality is my partner is female, I see no reason to censor myself for them just in case they're homophobic. They asked. They made it relevant. It's their problem if they don't like the answer. Call me foolish if you like, but I'm not a fan of the silent "don't bring it up even when asked" oppression that goes around when normativity is policed by the majority.
You do make a good point here. You are free to speak your mind - my point was that it isn't always the best way to accomplish your goals. In fact, I rarely lie to people about what I like and what my preferences are when asked directly, but I'm also careful in how I frame the issue. Tact is important, and allowing pride to interfere can be harmful. Let me be clear - I don't think we should pander to bigots or preconcieved notions, I think we should take advantage of them. That's the fundamental difference in my argument versus, say, what linvala meant about hiding the crazy. If it's a random person asking you who your partner is, by all means tell them. If it's your boss who is a known homophobe, unless you think you can win a discrimination case, it's probably best not to admit it. As you said, just don't disregard tact, you'll know when the proper situation arises. Those are heavier issues, anyway, and when you feel strongly enough about them maybe throwing someone off balance is the desired effect you want. What I was referring to was more along the lines of not talking about Magic the Gathering on a first date.
My real problem is this idea of normativity being policed by the majority. Of course it is policed by the majority - it isn't an oppressive regime, it's a natural by product of a social society. Is it hard on those who are different? Absolutely. Differences stretch those boundaries, and they change naturally over time due to that pushing, but the boundaries are there for a reason: to keep society working together and prevent aberrant behavior from disrupting society.
My real problem is this idea of normativity being policed by the majority. Of course it is policed by the majority - it isn't an oppressive regime, it's a natural by product of a social society. Is it hard on those who are different? Absolutely. Differences stretch those boundaries, and they change naturally over time due to that pushing, but the boundaries are there for a reason: to keep society working together and prevent aberrant behavior from disrupting society.
My biggest concern on this issue is keeping this kind of explanation from being used to justify actual oppression. Things like race, sex, gender, religion, and so forth. For something like pedophilia, the boundaries are very important to protect children. For something like homosexuality, the boundaries are only there to protect the privileged who simply don't want to see things they don't like. That is oppression. For an example of this behaviour (thankfully unsuccessful), look at all the furor over the gay content in Dragon Age 2 and the straight gamer who argued that it shouldn't have been there to begin with—because even as an option he didn't have to take, it meant that the "main demographic, the straight male gamer" was being "neglected," and I wholly agree with Bioware's response.
My biggest concern on this issue is keeping this kind of explanation from being used to justify actual oppression. Things like race, sex, gender, religion, and so forth. For something like pedophilia, the boundaries are very important to protect children. For something like homosexuality, the boundaries are only there to protect the privileged who simply don't want to see things they don't like. That is oppression. For an example of this behaviour (thankfully unsuccessful), look at all the furor over the gay content in Dragon Age 2 and the straight gamer who argued that it shouldn't have been there to begin with—because even as an option he didn't have to take, it meant that the "main demographic, the straight male gamer" was being "neglected," and I wholly agree with Bioware's response.
First, I apologize for all the typos in my last post - I posted before proofreading because I had to run off for something else.
I understand where you are coming from in this. The explanation of cultural boundaries was just that, an explanation of naturally occuring social boundaries, not an argument for them (and it shouldn't be) I even said that I'm with you - as long as it doesn't harm anyone, go for it. The problem is, from many people's point of view, they believe homosexuality is wrong and that they will be punished for being a society that is okay with it. At the most fundamental level, they are afraid of something that is different. The rest of us can't allow those people to let society stagnate because they don't want change.
As I said, these boundaries change naturally over time, and the same people who didn't want the slaves freed are the same people who didn't want women's sufferage are the same people who didn't want interracial marriages are the same people who don't want gay marriage. They are important in a society, because they provide a counterweight to the adventurous, liberal element that can be just as dangerous as their conservative counterparts. That doesn't mean every individual has to like it, or even accept it. Those that don't accept it are typically the driving forces of changes, and the group that captures the hearts of the moderates is the group that enforces change. I think you'll find in the next 20 years the cultural norms will change and it will only really be evangelicals and the like who are staunchly homophobic.
Does it suck for people who want change now? Absolutely. But it's the only way true progress is made in society. When you try to change a social norm too quickly, a seedier underbelly takes root (think prohibition), but when you allow change to be gradual, you will find vast improvements (think anti-smoking campaigns).
Perhaps to return the discussion to the original post (I glanced over the repetition of usernames, (so I'll assume that it was "NO, THIS", "NO, THAT"-esque or "YA, THIS", "YA, THIS"-esque), here's this... maybe.
So, theres this girl in my school, I've known her for a few years, and I've asked her out once, but I dont really think it worked, and I think I definately don't know how to talk to shy girls...
Is it really just shy girls?
I would kind of like to get a date with her, but first things first, how the heck do you talk to a shy girl when you yourself are rather shy when it comes to girls...
Whyyy her?
I have a feeling that poking her on facebook is definately not going to do it.
Well, at least you have her on Facebook, eh? Now, how'd that come to be?
(P.S, We're both 15, but I would rather appreciate any of the normal statements of "your too young for dating" or "Just live your life right now" because honestly, I think age certainly isn't a good factor for when you're ready to do anything... I know people way older than me who probably shouldn't be dating... and I've lived my life alone... some parts of it sucked, some parts of it were ok, and some were great, but I've definately lived my life alone enough to know that I'm ready to at least try and talk to her...)
I'm not going to judge you on your age. It's good experience, anyhow; or, it could be the blossoming of something beautiful!
So, basic situation is:
I kinda like this girl, and would at least get to know her better.
I am shy around women.
Heehee.
She's just shy in general.
I don't know why she's shy but I'm not going to hazard that she has deep-seated abuse issues at home, been bullied in her formative and childhood years, or some crappy upbringing. I'm also not going to hazard that she's got psychological, neurological, or medical issues.
Edit: ... oh wait, I think I may have in fact suggested these things subconsciously. Never mind. :/
How do I converse/communicate with her? Honestly, sign language has struck me as a plausible option... but seeming as the only sign language I know happens to be the middle finger, this seems like it would end badly... also, facebook poking is probably not going to get me a date, or even a conversation...
Look, if you're wanting to genuinely converse with her, you're going to have to change the way you approach this. If you seriously thought about sign language and then all that one-finger salute nonsense, you probably don't respect her or the notion of going up to her and talking enough to be talking to her.
If you wanna talk, talk. If you want a socially lubricated situation, find some fortuitous (or designed or even intentional) crossing of paths. Talk about something, about class, about interesting somethings, about mutual interests, activities, jobs, media, etc.
I'm not sure whether kids at 15 do this where you live but you could ask her on a "date" (I mean "date-like") in which you can have coffee and caramels.
Does she have friends? (I'm sure that's a yes.) Does she have friends that you can find a way to talk to, get to know, etc.?
What about yourself? Do you have friends that are friends with the friends of hers? Can you find or arrange some kind of mixer? Are there other shy girls and check the boxes of criteria that interest you?
Just wondering, how did this thread turn into something about lolicon? I'm a little disturbed, honestly. EDIT: Looking back more closely, it's not exactly about lolicon... but it does make me feel sorry I brought up that one thing about linvala saying whatever or whatever. It really wasn't my intention to start an argument...
Anyway, to the poster guy above me, Zochreinu... the sign language thing was a joke... just to let you know...
I dont not like her friends, her friends just scare me...
and I do not, in fact, have any friends at school... and no, I'm not the sort of person to arrange mixers/parties/whatever, as I am, in fact, somewhat of low self esteem and find myself extremely nervous in social situations.
It's not I always like shy girls, she's just a girl, that I like (although I posted back aways that I tried saying hi and she just looked at me funny... so I'm not exactly certain it's actually going to go anywhere.) that also happens to be rather shy. I'm not even certain shy is the right word for it. I suppose she's just more... reserved, as she seems sociable enough with her friends, and doesn't seem to have problems speaking in front of the class.
Just putting it out there, I think I'm more the guy who should just distract himself with nerd hobbies like Magic and Video Games than go out and try to get a girlfriend, because I think me + social life = disaster.
Just putting it out there, I think I'm more the guy who should just distract himself with nerd hobbies like Magic and Video Games than go out and try to get a girlfriend, because I think me + social life = disaster.
No, this is the wrong attitude to have.
Being social is a LEARNED SKILL. You need to learn how to do it. If you avoid it, you will never be good at it.
Let's flip it on it's head, and make asking this girl out like playing a game of magic. No one is born knowing how to play MTG. They see it, and they want to play it. So you get some cards togehter, sit down, and get blown outyour first game.
You're response basically boils down to "Well, I guess I'll never play MTG again, I'll bus myself with other things, because obviously me + MTG cards = disaster"
You have a fear of failure and rejection. Everyone does. You will never get pver it unless you confront it. You will never get better at social situaoitns until you start getting involved in them. You never even asked this girl out, you mumbled a "hi" and then turn tail and ran.
Just walk up to her, and say "Hi, my name is (whatever your name is), would you like to go out sometime?" 12 words. All you need to do is speak 12 words. You are intelligent enough to register on an internet forum and post topics, that means you are intelligent enough to say 12 words.
Just go into pure robot mode, shut down your emotions, forget about your reaction, just make it a mission: "I will walk up to this girl and say these 12 words". That's all you have to do. It will NEVER get easier until you do it. Just like MTG, you will never get better until you start playing.
I wouldn't worry about mixers or parties or whatever, you're not there yet. That's like telling a first time player to run TEPS and expect him to do well. Ain't gonna happen. You need practice, so go get it.
The first steps are always the hardest, but trust me, they are also the most rewarding. I'm not trying to sound like one of those "tommorow is the first day of your life" people, but you can change things. Being socially awkward is the norm, you just need to aquire social skills. Just like any other skill.
Just keep saying to yourself: 12 words. That's it. 12 words. You can do that.
However don't use this as justification for not being able to function normally. I know too many super awkward people who use their nerdiness as a scapegoat for why they have trouble functioning normally with people. It's a cop out really.
You'd probably be a really cool, funny, and interesting dude if you actually thought yourself capable of being one. Stop killing your pursuits before they've even begun.
It's one thing to be into nerdy hobbies, but another to let that warp your identity and define what you can and can't do.
The Saga of Arkay
A very good point, not being normal =/= socially akward, I watch anime and play magic and you'd never guess looking at me.
A girl I just met a few weeks ago is exactly the same... shes a cheerleader that does tennis on the side and and is one of the people that outwardly just seems at a higher social standing point. Learned later after chilling with her and a few others at the movies that she plays DnD, watches anime, reads manga, and is preparing her newest cosplay for a con coming up and is an all around chill person in general...
But back to on topic!
1. Show some confidence
2. Make contact with said target
3. More more contact with said target
4. Make even more contact with said target
5. Make more intimate contact with said target
6. Make even more intimate contact with said target
7. Said target acquired, mission accomplished. Good work soldier!
Got up my courage enough to say hello... she just kind of looked at me funny...
Yay...
I think I'm sticking with girls who actually talk more from now on...
Ah well, not depressed at all, actually, and I credit a great night of EDH for that.
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You strike me, if you'll forgive the odd comparison, as being in the same vein as the straight would-be LGBT allies I run across on a semi-regular basis who proclaim their heterosexuality very stridently. Because while they're totally supportive they just don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about them, because that would be bad because they'd be ashamed to be actually associated with the people they're defending.
In short, you practice a very backhanded kind of acceptance for "not normal." You basically say "don't be afraid to be not normal, so long as everyone else thinks you're normal." So what if someone's awkward? Not everyone is totally relaxed in every social setting. At least the OP wants to work through it.
You bring up your LGBT connection in enough of your threads that it is very noticeable, more than is really called for. You sound like all the people I know who always mention their 'gay friend' because they want to seem accepting but really just either want the 'cool' status for being 'accepting'. A good friend of mine from High School is transgender. I have several gay and lesbian friends. But I don't need to remind people in every other thread how cool and accepting I am. I also don't bring it up where it isn't necessary, because to me they aren't special cases that need my defending.
All linvala was doing was acknowledging that not being normal, that is being into magic or being a huge nerd, doesn't mean that you are socially awkward, and used himself as an example. He was merely pointing out that the stereotypes don't fit. The truth is that very few magic player truly fall into the uber-nerd stereotype that people unfamiliar with Magic, D&D, etc. associate with fat socially awkward loners. Forgive him if he doesn't want to be assumed to be a social reject. He didn't say anything about hiding or being ashamed of his hobby. I'm the same way - a volunteer firefighter, a emergency manager and I'm loud and outspoken. You'd think I was into football and NASCAR if you met me. I also don't flaunt my nerdiness with nerdy t-shirts or the like, but if you walked into my house, you'd know immediately that I was a gigantic nerd. I don't lie about my hobbies, but I also don't find it necessary to bring them up just for the purpose of defending them to people. Fighting every battle against misconceptions that comes along is stupid.
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Also you also realize that linvala went on about "hiding the crazy" in another thread, so his opinions on that issue are already quite clear.
It's too bad that most nerds try to force the crazy because they think that no one will notice them for other interesting traits they may possess.
The Saga of Arkay
Nothing build confidence like rejection. Tell yourself "a year from now, nothing I am doing now will matter" and just go for it. If you get shot down, try again with someone else. If that girl shoots you down, try again with somoene else.
10 or so rounds of that, and you'll be so relaxed and won;t care about the response you get, asking girls out will be as easy as pie. And that's the point when the girls will sense your confidence and start saying yes.
There's no secert to it, like anything else in life, it just takes practice. The first few times you try to walk as a baby, you trip and fall. The first few times you try to ride a bike, you crash and bust your ass. The first few time you play MTG, you get combo'ed out on. Everything in life takes practice to get good at. Asking girls out is no different.
A very well thought out post
Teia, all I'm saying is you can't use "I'm a nerd" as an excuse to be socially akward, if you walk up to me and ask me "do you watch anime" I'll say yes, some good friends I hang out with watch anime, however I don't go around going "look at me I like anime", yes, you are supposed to hide the crazy, not get rid of it, just hide it, a person should never walk around as an open book.
Not normal doesn't mean that you have to be socially akward, you can not be normal and still act normal. And moonshield is right, too many nerds force the crazy to try to get attention, wear your nekomimi hat at a con, with your anime friends, NOT in the middle of a college campus. Too many people think anime fans go around doing stupid ☺☺☺☺ like that because the smart ones don't go around doing stupid ☺☺☺☺ like playing an eroge in the student union (wanted to hit the kid).
I never said don't do what you love, I never said you have to be normal, what I DID say was that you should act with a decent degree of self restraint about not-so-socially-acceptable-things. The fact that I'd rather watch K-on to march madness doesn't mean I have to do be socially akward stereotypical "nerd".
Fun fact; very few anime fans or magic players are actually the stereotypes, it's just that the stereotypes stand out.
Also Teia, I know you may think you give good advice, but lettuce be reality for a second, I know you have aspurger's, read manga in public, are cisgendered, hang out with primarily GLBT nerds, you are not normal, you have demonstrated through your advice routinely that you really are not a person who should be giving out advice on social situations, I know you probably won't take my advice, but I think it would benefit this forum if you stopped giving romance advice.
Also to the guy who called me a bully, look at his last post before mine and honestly tell me that post doesn't reek of "pay attention to me", I am not the nicest guy on this forum, not even close, but my advice is ussually pretty spot-on, just not phrased in the nice tones guys like infinity alarm use.
One of those is patently false.
Anyway, I'm still not sure what kind of crazy really needs to be hidden, aside from things like how you're a lolicon. But in my case, as far as watching anime or being pansexual or whatever else goes, I don't rub peoples' faces in it in real life, but I don't act like it's something to be hidden, either. No point. I'm not the kind of person who wears cat ears around campus, nor would I ever play an h-game at school. But at the same time I don't see why I should look down on people who do. They certainly aren't harming anyone, and "don't act stereotypical" is just useless victim-blaming. Again to use the LGBT comparisons, it's like complaining about a gay guy who's "too flaming" or whatever, as if someone who doesn't fit into the mainstream must conform to others' expectations of how their group ought to act.
I'm also unsure as to where I said that "I'm a nerd" is an acceptable excuse for being socially awkward, although if I really must play the devil's advocate here, I'd argue that being shunned and having your identity policed by others is a very good reason to be awkward outside your comfort zone.
Assuming you didn't misinterpret and she wasn't just initializing self-defense mechanism 157, it's still a good thing. At least 75% (probably much higher) of men have some degree of anxiety/shyness when it comes to approaching women they are attracted to. One of the most direct ways of coping with any kind of anxiety is desensitization: forcing yourself to do what is uncomfortable. And you did it; you gained something and lost nothing.
Truthfully if you are at least fairly normal looking and don't do something strange when you approach, a good majority of females will at least hear you out. When they don't, just assume that it's because they are having a bad day or that they're just a cold *****. It's not you, it's them.
Course' YMMV in high-school/early college, but I'd still recommended males of any post-puberty age get over shyness with girls ASAP.
What did you say after that?
No girl hears "hello" and responds with "yes, I'd love to go out with you". Did you actually ask her? Cause if not, you didn't try.
Just walk up and say "Hey, I'd like to know if you want to go out on a date sometime" and see what happens. If she says yes, great, if she says no, you're in the exact same position you are in now. You literally have nothing to lose. Even if she says no, you notched your ability to handle rejection up a bit, so it's really a win win for you
I personally garauntee you, the hardest part of doing this is thinking what to say when a girl says "OK". So make sure you have a date idea planned already.
I didn't mean to imply you were a bad person, I'm sorry if it came off that way. I was just trying to a.) better clarify what livala was say (as it seemed to me) and b.) point of the silliness of calling someone out the way you did, especially when the situation really didn't warrant bringing it up, and how easily it can get turned around.
And I didn't see the hiding the crazy post, but that's not always a bad idea. When people have a negative stereotype about something, it can be better to expose them to the content of your character before letting them judge you with that all-important first impression based on a stereotype. It also allows you to feel someone else out, too. There is no sense in fighting an uphill battle when you don't have to. People's perceptions don't change because you try to force them to accept you, people's perceptions change because they come to find you are a good person first, and preconceived notions about a stereotype start dissapearing. Getting a law changed is about being loud and proud - changing public perception is about being great people despite what people think. How well a movement manages the transition determines how quickly change occurs.
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I'm not being harsh at all. No one has any idea what she would say until they ask. She could have a buge crush on the OP and just never have told him about it. Or she could hate his guts and the mear thought of being in the same room as him makes her want to puke. There's only one way to get a valid response to a question, and that's to ask the question.
I'm not a fan of "be her friend first and then try to morph it into a relationship", because you are entering into a uneven situation: you have an ulterior motive, which she is unaware of. That's a recipe for disaster. I also find it to be very dishonest.
If you want to ask her out, ask her out. If she's shy, do it in a polite way, not in a big crowd of people. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be, all you end up doing is building up the event in your head more and more and making it harder and harder to do.
There's also an element of "some of us fit the stereotypes, others don't, but despite our differences we're still people too" inherent in not "hiding the crazy." Once again, telling someone that they have to hide things that make them different is telling them that they should be ashamed of their differences, in essence policing normativity. There's a difference between hiding things that are simply inappropriate as a matter of subject (such as being a lolicon - orientation is one thing, fetishes another) versus hiding things that are only inappropriate because others see it as different (such as watching anime).
You make a comment about policing normativity, and then at the same time make a value-judgment about a sexual preference? That seems disingenuous. Do you really think lolicons choose to be attracted to images of young girls? I'm honestly confused by your logic. It seems the only dividing line is your opinion on what is appropriate and what is not, while you simultaneously disregarding other people's opinions that may put you in the same category that you lump the lolicon in.
So, in effect, your opinion actually is that it's okay to hide the crazy, as long as it's something you define as weird, instead of anyone else. That's fine - that's how most people work, but it's important to accept that about yourself.
What I am saying is that everyone has different boundaries as to what is appropriate and what is not. You can't throw up a wall around your life and say 'everything in here is acceptable, and you can't judge me for it', and at the same time say 'hey, now that's weird and unacceptable'. You have to accept that something is going to be weird for someone, and that normative values are by their nature subjective.
D&D may just be nerdy and stupid to one person, and devil worship to another. If I have to work with these people, or I have some sort of goal or priority that involves a positive view from these people, I'm not going to reveal something about myself that endangers that. It's common sense. Is it manipulative? Absolutely, but every interaction we have with other people is manipulative, that's the very nature of interaction, we are trying to change something. It's much more effective than drawing imaginary lines in the sand - I simply accept that not everyone shares my views and adjust my behavior around those that don't to bring about the most positive outcome (to me). If I have no need of a person, I will absolutely call them out on something, but I'm not going to talk about my agnostic, moderate views to my super-religious, hardcore liberal coworkers.
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No, it's more that being a lolicon has a specific cultural judgement associated with it. While I don't personally believe it to be wrong (so long as it doesn't cross into practicing pedophilia, anyway), there is a strong cultural difference in saying "I'm gay and proud of it" versus "I'm a lolicon and proud of it." Is it fair? Not really. But that's the way it goes.
My point was more that things like watching anime are sometimes looked down upon solely for being different than mainstream interests, while things like lolicon are looked down upon for other reasons (in this case, people associating it with pedophilia). If someone wants to try to change that perception, then I'm all for it and support it 100%. It's an uphill battle, but not an impossible one to fight. After all, homosexuality used to be considered a treatable mental illness, nowadays it's the civil rights issue du jour, and in a number of years it'll be no more a contentious issue than race is.
I never said to disregard tact. I'm certainly not, for example, going to toss my sexuality around when it's not even remotely called for. But at the same time, if someone inquires about my boyfriend but the reality is my partner is female, I see no reason to censor myself for them just in case they're homophobic. They asked. They made it relevant. It's their problem if they don't like the answer. Call me foolish if you like, but I'm not a fan of the silent "don't bring it up even when asked" oppression that goes around when normativity is policed by the majority.
Likewise, if I ask linvala what kinds of things he's into and he answers loli, then it's my problem, not his, if I don't like the answer (and for the record, again, I honestly don't care).
Thanks, you explain your reasoning a lot better here. I'm personally with you - if it doesn't hurt anyone (like pedophilia does), I think everyone is entitled. However, as you mention, cultural judgments play a huge factor, and while I don't believe it will still be the case in say, 20 years, right now a lot of the nerdy things we do are still looked down on by the general population. My point was that people should understand that they also base their opinions on people based on cultural norms, and to look down on someone becuase
That's fair enough, and I agree with you here. Because we have a poor understanding of Neuroscience, Mental Illness is usually just defined by cultural norms. I personally think the dividing line is so blurry that we can really only define mental illness (or deviant behavior) as something that causes a person's behavior to present a risk to themselves or to others. Homosexuality does not, therefore it is acceptable (to me). Pedophilia, while I don't believe it to be a choice, is dangerous to children.
I arrived at these conclusions because I've date outside my race fairly often. As a white male, this would have been considered deviant by many as little as 50 years ago, and still is by many. Now of course, mixed ethnicity children is the fastest growing group in the US, but at one point it was looked down on.
You do make a good point here. You are free to speak your mind - my point was that it isn't always the best way to accomplish your goals. In fact, I rarely lie to people about what I like and what my preferences are when asked directly, but I'm also careful in how I frame the issue. Tact is important, and allowing pride to interfere can be harmful. Let me be clear - I don't think we should pander to bigots or preconcieved notions, I think we should take advantage of them. That's the fundamental difference in my argument versus, say, what linvala meant about hiding the crazy. If it's a random person asking you who your partner is, by all means tell them. If it's your boss who is a known homophobe, unless you think you can win a discrimination case, it's probably best not to admit it. As you said, just don't disregard tact, you'll know when the proper situation arises. Those are heavier issues, anyway, and when you feel strongly enough about them maybe throwing someone off balance is the desired effect you want. What I was referring to was more along the lines of not talking about Magic the Gathering on a first date.
My real problem is this idea of normativity being policed by the majority. Of course it is policed by the majority - it isn't an oppressive regime, it's a natural by product of a social society. Is it hard on those who are different? Absolutely. Differences stretch those boundaries, and they change naturally over time due to that pushing, but the boundaries are there for a reason: to keep society working together and prevent aberrant behavior from disrupting society.
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My biggest concern on this issue is keeping this kind of explanation from being used to justify actual oppression. Things like race, sex, gender, religion, and so forth. For something like pedophilia, the boundaries are very important to protect children. For something like homosexuality, the boundaries are only there to protect the privileged who simply don't want to see things they don't like. That is oppression. For an example of this behaviour (thankfully unsuccessful), look at all the furor over the gay content in Dragon Age 2 and the straight gamer who argued that it shouldn't have been there to begin with—because even as an option he didn't have to take, it meant that the "main demographic, the straight male gamer" was being "neglected," and I wholly agree with Bioware's response.
First, I apologize for all the typos in my last post - I posted before proofreading because I had to run off for something else.
I understand where you are coming from in this. The explanation of cultural boundaries was just that, an explanation of naturally occuring social boundaries, not an argument for them (and it shouldn't be) I even said that I'm with you - as long as it doesn't harm anyone, go for it. The problem is, from many people's point of view, they believe homosexuality is wrong and that they will be punished for being a society that is okay with it. At the most fundamental level, they are afraid of something that is different. The rest of us can't allow those people to let society stagnate because they don't want change.
As I said, these boundaries change naturally over time, and the same people who didn't want the slaves freed are the same people who didn't want women's sufferage are the same people who didn't want interracial marriages are the same people who don't want gay marriage. They are important in a society, because they provide a counterweight to the adventurous, liberal element that can be just as dangerous as their conservative counterparts. That doesn't mean every individual has to like it, or even accept it. Those that don't accept it are typically the driving forces of changes, and the group that captures the hearts of the moderates is the group that enforces change. I think you'll find in the next 20 years the cultural norms will change and it will only really be evangelicals and the like who are staunchly homophobic.
Does it suck for people who want change now? Absolutely. But it's the only way true progress is made in society. When you try to change a social norm too quickly, a seedier underbelly takes root (think prohibition), but when you allow change to be gradual, you will find vast improvements (think anti-smoking campaigns).
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Whyyy her?
Well, at least you have her on Facebook, eh? Now, how'd that come to be?
I'm not going to judge you on your age. It's good experience, anyhow; or, it could be the blossoming of something beautiful!
Heehee.
I don't know why she's shy but I'm not going to hazard that she has deep-seated abuse issues at home, been bullied in her formative and childhood years, or some crappy upbringing. I'm also not going to hazard that she's got psychological, neurological, or medical issues.Edit: ... oh wait, I think I may have in fact suggested these things subconsciously. Never mind. :/
Look, if you're wanting to genuinely converse with her, you're going to have to change the way you approach this. If you seriously thought about sign language and then all that one-finger salute nonsense, you probably don't respect her or the notion of going up to her and talking enough to be talking to her.
If you wanna talk, talk. If you want a socially lubricated situation, find some fortuitous (or designed or even intentional) crossing of paths. Talk about something, about class, about interesting somethings, about mutual interests, activities, jobs, media, etc.
I'm not sure whether kids at 15 do this where you live but you could ask her on a "date" (I mean "date-like") in which you can have coffee and caramels.
Does she have friends? (I'm sure that's a yes.) Does she have friends that you can find a way to talk to, get to know, etc.?
What about yourself? Do you have friends that are friends with the friends of hers? Can you find or arrange some kind of mixer? Are there other shy girls and check the boxes of criteria that interest you?
Anyway, to the poster guy above me, Zochreinu... the sign language thing was a joke... just to let you know...
I dont not like her friends, her friends just scare me...
and I do not, in fact, have any friends at school... and no, I'm not the sort of person to arrange mixers/parties/whatever, as I am, in fact, somewhat of low self esteem and find myself extremely nervous in social situations.
It's not I always like shy girls, she's just a girl, that I like (although I posted back aways that I tried saying hi and she just looked at me funny... so I'm not exactly certain it's actually going to go anywhere.) that also happens to be rather shy. I'm not even certain shy is the right word for it. I suppose she's just more... reserved, as she seems sociable enough with her friends, and doesn't seem to have problems speaking in front of the class.
Just putting it out there, I think I'm more the guy who should just distract himself with nerd hobbies like Magic and Video Games than go out and try to get a girlfriend, because I think me + social life = disaster.
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No, this is the wrong attitude to have.
Being social is a LEARNED SKILL. You need to learn how to do it. If you avoid it, you will never be good at it.
Let's flip it on it's head, and make asking this girl out like playing a game of magic. No one is born knowing how to play MTG. They see it, and they want to play it. So you get some cards togehter, sit down, and get blown outyour first game.
You're response basically boils down to "Well, I guess I'll never play MTG again, I'll bus myself with other things, because obviously me + MTG cards = disaster"
You have a fear of failure and rejection. Everyone does. You will never get pver it unless you confront it. You will never get better at social situaoitns until you start getting involved in them. You never even asked this girl out, you mumbled a "hi" and then turn tail and ran.
Just walk up to her, and say "Hi, my name is (whatever your name is), would you like to go out sometime?" 12 words. All you need to do is speak 12 words. You are intelligent enough to register on an internet forum and post topics, that means you are intelligent enough to say 12 words.
Just go into pure robot mode, shut down your emotions, forget about your reaction, just make it a mission: "I will walk up to this girl and say these 12 words". That's all you have to do. It will NEVER get easier until you do it. Just like MTG, you will never get better until you start playing.
I wouldn't worry about mixers or parties or whatever, you're not there yet. That's like telling a first time player to run TEPS and expect him to do well. Ain't gonna happen. You need practice, so go get it.
The first steps are always the hardest, but trust me, they are also the most rewarding. I'm not trying to sound like one of those "tommorow is the first day of your life" people, but you can change things. Being socially awkward is the norm, you just need to aquire social skills. Just like any other skill.
Just keep saying to yourself: 12 words. That's it. 12 words. You can do that.