Do you know how many Elesh Norn's I run? One. Because there is only one Elesh Norn. In fact, if I have mine in hand, and my opponent plays one, I will cast mine. Only, instead, what I see is this:
My opponent has just called Elesh Norn to his side, and I grin as I try to mimic his spell, and watch her fold in on herself as reality bends, trying to summon her in two places at once, and her body collapses in a heap while the opposing planeswalker looks shocked and distraught at the loss of his ally.
Ah yes, the flavor of the legend rule. God I love how people explain it the way you do.
Most Vorthosians go there whole life without even knowing they're a Vorthos. Some, the unfortunate few, are so obsessed with it, they end up like Aleerp here, without a real place in the game, and slightly bitter because of it.
Pretty much. I've even seen it said somewhere here that Hasbro doesn't care much about the flavor of M:TG either and that everything from the ending of the novel line, the cessation of the webcomics, and now the suspension (albeit temporary) of Savor the Flavor just goes to prove it.
I can't say I'm just as cynical but I do think that TCGs never had that much support for flavor anyways.
This makes sense for your play group, but not for people replying to your post. Since you've never explained your decks or your style to anyone here, it doesn't make much sense to be sick of doing so. In addition, doing so would likely help move the conversation along and generate some more helpful advice. As a self-confessed Spike/Melvin, I am entirely ignorant about all things Vorthos, so I'd legitimately like for you to describe the style that you keep referencing.
All right, noted. I'm just really frustrated right now with all the attitude I've been getting from my group.
Ah yes, the flavor of the legend rule. God I love how people explain it the way you do.
Pretty much. I've even seen it said somewhere here that Hasbro doesn't care much about the flavor of M:TG either and that everything from the ending of the novel line, the cessation of the webcomics, and now the suspension (albeit temporary) of Savor the Flavor just goes to prove it.
I can't say I'm just as cynical but I do think that TCGs never had that much support for flavor anyways.
I know that and I've already been doing a bit of 'reversion' to DnD with M:TG used only as a means to pass the time till the DM's ready.
I just wish I didn't have to put up with so much flame, backstabbing, and insults just because of my M:TG playstyle.
All right, noted. I'm just really frustrated right now with all the attitude I've been getting from my group.
Posts merged. -Viricide
No problem at all, and that certainly wasn't an "official" request or anything. Just trying to be helpful In the same vein, you allude to some activities outside of matches (e.g. backstabbing on Facebook) that might be relevant or provide us with a clearer picture of what's going on. It seems like the situation may go beyond just disliking a building/playing style and may be more personal.
How can you differentiate a Vorthos deck from one of these? http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=923031 - Shared Fate Deck, very specific and annoying way to win. I'd say its pretty flavorful, but there is no real connection between the cards.
From what I can tell Vorthos is based around role playing out the game with an incredibly flavorful deck. Besides the challenge, I don't see a reason why your deck has to be non-competitive.
Finally, do you experience similar circumstances when playing D&D?
All right, but first a slight correction. Mystic Speculation was supposed to be replaced by Worldly Tutor. Must've forgotten about that but there's an explanation there too.
Now sorceries and instants aren't generally as restrictive for me compared to permanents but they have a connection to my character's own style of spellcasting. He's a dragon mage but rides dragons in a manner that's not much different from a fighter pilot. He starts out as RG but goes to become RUG. He's very aggressive but ends up doing so in a really smart way.
I see the dragons as representative of various 'models' of what he rides and his spells are sorta like his arsenal (missiles, bombs, a way to reload etc). I try to use combos that reflect that such as this one I came up with for EDH: Mystic Retrieval + Runic Repetition + Increasing Vengeance + missile spells like Flame Javelin + retrieval cards like Call To Mind or Recollect. When I put them together, I simply like to express a guy who is never out of firepower.
Of course, all of that wouldn't be necessary if I just used Pyromancer Ascension but it's nigh useless in EDH.
He also likes to command Myrs as part of his little launch crew as it were (along with female humanoids for reasons I'm not sure I'd want to share >_>). Hence, you got spells like Assert Authority which is a counterspell that has ties to artifacts. Artifacts actually form a greater part of his U side because when he finally seeks out this color, the result is something like an Izzet Kamen Rider-type character with really explosive moves. The other artifacts you see just tie-in to that more or less.
Well the green creatures are the only ones I'm not sure I can reconcile with (unless your deck represents a planeswalker who likes gardening and mind magic :P).
From what I can tell Vorthos is based around role playing out the game with an incredibly flavorful deck. Besides the challenge, I don't see a reason why your deck has to be non-competitive.
I think the biggest reason is, as a writer, I like to really play around with less game-constrained concepts. Unfortunately, they don't always translate well into the mechanics of the game.
You seem to be confusing having a theme, and having flavor (This isn't necessarily any fault on your part, we are taught that they are the same thing)
Burn is a theme. It does not, in any way, mean you have the flavor of a pyromancer.
Vorthos decks are o rare, almost nobody knows one when they see it. When they do see it, they think it's crap. Tribal can be, but usually isn't, Vorthos as well. Were you like me, and made a Block deck for Faeries, all about them taking your opponents cards, ecause, in your mind, you were sending off the fae to steal dreams for your beloved queen Oona? You might be a Vorthos.
Were you like Spike and built a mono-blue faerie deck with Vedalken Shackles and lots of control? You might not be a Vorthos, but tribe is still there.
I like to steal things- Theme
This tells me a story about a wizard who eventually comes to learn powerful ways of turning his enemies' Magic agaaist them, resulting in their eventual imprisonment and/or demise- Vorthos-ish
Though a true Vorthos is into the true story of the game itself, not just made up stories.
"This deck tells the story of Kamahl and Chainer as they both pit their beliefs against the Cabal." - VORTHOS
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I was just telling my wife about this. To avoid flaming, I'll cut right to the chase. I told her that the OP likes building decks with a story, but doesn't like getting crushed. To which, she said "Build a deck that wins, and then make a story up".
Seems like an elegant solution to me.
^This
Magic is about two extremely powerful planeswalkers duking it out. They don't have any storylines set in stone. Things just happen as they battle. The story makes itself up.
I like to steal things- Theme
This tells me a story about a wizard who eventually comes to learn powerful ways of turning his enemies' Magic agaaist them, resulting in their eventual imprisonment and/or demise- Vorthos-ish
Though a true Vorthos is into the true story of the game itself, not just made up stories.
"This deck tells the story of Kamahl and Chainer as they both pit their beliefs against the Cabal." - VORTHOS
Yeah I think I've had this told to me before. Still, my decks lean more to an artistic side than anything mechanics-driven. To simplify the character I based my deck on, he's just a dragon mage who ends up tossed into Ravnica and ends up liking replicate power and time magic after salvaging what was left of the Izzet League.
When I try translating that into the game's mechanics though, well...
Leerp - Is it a valid color scheme for your character? =) That is what matters.
Leerp, I really think block constructed or EDH is where you will find the most fun. Maybe Planechase. Also, give your playgroup a break. They might just not understand. It's like trying to explain to a tiger why it should hang out more often with the Serval- not that they can't get along, but they will probabl never be on the same page.
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Hey, I just wanted to say that I totally had no idea what Vorthos really was and I want to thank you guys for taking the time to post it up. I'm generally like to play decks that win. But I do respect the whole "story" of the deck, in fact I think it sounds really fun.
Now how do you find Vorthos games and what are the deck construction rules? Is it standard, Legacy or EDH construction?
No joke. The formats I prefer are Legacy and cube.
So then there is no set format? it could be anything? That makes it really tough to find opponents on the same power level. Maybe the spike in me would like to play some de-powered games and still be able to navigate a path to victory.
I kind of wanted to Build an whole Elspeth and Knights deck, Bant Alara vibe. The deck would be like a set of chess pieces, with Elspeth representing the Queen, Knights of the Reliquary, wall of omens to represent the rook, one drops to represent the pawns... etc.
The Zorthos description on page 1 was more than adequate.
But I really think the problems at the LGS we're discussing is not about some ideological clash between Zorthos and Spikes and Johnnies. I seriously doubt most of the players at the LGS really think of M:TG as having that much to do with their personal identity.
I also seriously doubt that every kid who goes to that gaming shop happens to be a jerk, or even spends that much time thinking about you to want to hate you.
However, I officially declare that it's dominated by Spikes and Melvins.
Their Johnny-Spike combo decks always have a high guarantee against my art decks. Why shouldn't I concede? You've won. Congrats.
I've really had it said to me that "You want to win. Do deny it is to believe a big fat lie" or whatever egotistical, self-serving Spike BS jargon.
I don't care about their combo decks. I don't care about losing. I'm not bitter about losing. I'm tired of having people assume that I'm just like them who think I'm drunk on winning. One guy even said I go crazy on the rare occasions that I do win.
Last time I checked, the only thing I feel after winning is relief. As, in my head-is-on-the-table-figuratively-passed-out relief.
Ironically, these Spikes accuse me of lying to myself when I say I don't play to win. Projection much?
Just based on what you've typed here, its 100% obvious that you are a sore loser, and a bad winner. If you play very uncompetitive decks, and you quit early enough in games that people are actually complaining about it, then it means you're being a bad loser. When you "drop your head on the table in figuratively passed out relief" you're being a drama queen and making a big deal out of your win. It's painfully obvious you badly wanted to win when you do that, and denying it IS lying to yourself.
This may not be intentional, but its very obvious to everybody here. I came into this thread with absolutely no bias towards you and never heard of you before, but just one read through, and I can tell you're a sore loser and a bad winner. "Why shouldn't I concede? You've won. Congrats." is technically a congratulations, but the tone of it is really, dismissive and minimizing of the other person, and conveys a lot of negative emotion.
When you concede that way, it kind of minimizes the experience of the other person winning. You dismiss the lack of flavor of their decks, you dismiss their style of play, you minimize their wins, then when YOU win, you make a giant show of how relieved you are to win...
I can tell you right now. People don't like playing with you're making it NOT FUN. Simple as that. Even if you were a spike, they would still dislike dealing with that attitude. If you REALLY don't care about winning or losing, then you should let the game play out a little when you're losing.
(ADMIT IT: YOU QUIT EARLY BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THE EXPERIENCE OF LOSING. BECAUSE A TRUE VORTHOS WOULD PLAY IT OUT. BECAUSE THE FLAVOR OF THE EXPERIENCE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE OUTCOME, RIGHT? LOSING=DEATH SO WOULDN'T THE REAL PLANESWALKER, FACING CERTAIN DEATH, ALWAYS FIGHT TO THE LAST MAN & BREATH?)
No shame in hating to lose, or enjoying your win.
But you have to learn to be a gracious loser and winner. Not put on some kind of drama show every time you get lucky enough to win, while conceding losing games so quickly that it only feels like a rapid "do-over" to the victor.
On everybody else being a jerk:
I'm the subject of trash talk and backstabbing because I concede too often and 'undermine' my deck.
I've considered this approach. But given their complete large egos and just sheer dislike they have for me that has gone beyond the game, I don't think I'll ever be given a chance to change anything.
They're all narcissists (and they've admitted this themselves) so as much as I will try and give your advice a shot, I hope you don't mind expressing my unease that I'll just end up feeding their egos.
So far, the recent trash talk about me is forcing me to respect theirs but it just makes sick and I'm not sure I'm eager to give them the satisfaction.
I don't act like a pompous jerk. I really do have a bunch of narcs who take the slightest offense for not playing things their way.
I've always got my back against the wall with these people.
Again, I wouldn't be dissing these people if there wasn't a line that hadn't been crossed. They can disagree with my style, with my emphasis on flavor over victory all the want. But to backstab me on Facebook and turn the whole community against me?
I just wish I didn't have to put up with so much flame, backstabbing, and insults just because of my M:TG playstyle.
Heck, there's only one other guy I know who at least sympathizes with the mentality and the flavor of his decks are still hard for me to digest.
It's a shame that some of these people have dissed you online or on facebook. If you feel its unfixable, then just abandon these people and join MtGO and play.
You really should look at yourself and ask yourself why things are the way they are.
You should ask yourself why you have to look down on (his decks are "hard for you to digest" ) the one guy who goes out of his way to be nice and sympathizes with you.
On my brother:
My brother is one of them (the fact that I hardly ever get along with him does not help).
It just so happens I have a narc for a brother who likes to backstab me and now he's made Melvin friends who generally dislike me.
The sad part is (with small thanks to my brother) I highly, HIGHLY doubt they'll ever want to play like a Vorthos.
Lot of people don't get along with their brother.
Who DO you get along with?
Don't pass it off as "Vorthos-Spike ideologic incompatibility", because Vorthos is NOT a religion or an identity. It's a game style. Don't pass it off as everybody ELSE is just a jerk. Nobody is going to hate you because you're "Vorthos".
-
Bottom line is that the current April 3, 2012 edition of aleerpsoftware, is incompatible with the LGS people (and my take on WHY this has happened could be completely wrong). Your LGS people might simply all be jerks. If you dont think any of it is your fault, then DON'T STAY. Find other people who are not jerks to hang with. And play MtGO to get your Vorthos fix.
If you are willing to concede that some of this is your fault, then try to change some of it. You seem like a smart guy, a creative person, with a lot to offer as a friend. You just need a lot of work on some of your social skills and being able to see things from other people's viewpoints (exactly the flaw that you're accusing the LGS people of). I would ask that guy who is "sympathetic" to your gamestyle, what people really think of you, and ask him whether there's anything you could do to change the situation. I bet he'd have a ton of excellent advice.
Magic players are usually not that mean as a group, and even if some of them did end up targeting you on facebook, I highly doubt that most of the LGS players want to make you a pariah or really hurt you.
I also seriously doubt that every kid who goes to that gaming shop happens to be a jerk, or even spends that much time thinking about you to want to hate you.
You seem so hellbent on siding with these guys when you don't even know them. I do. I know where to find them on Facebook. You don't. I'm the one sitting at their tables, you're not.
Finally, I wouldn't be ranting here if the treatment I've been getting didn't start going THAT bad. Please, I want you to focus more on these facts:
1. My words and opinions on their decks had been twisted out of proportion.
2. I've been backstabbed constantly now.
3. My decks get dissed for the way I built them to the point that they start hitting below the belt.
On Spikes & being a bad winner, sore loser:
Just based on what you've typed here, its 100% obvious that you are a sore loser, and a bad winner. If you play very uncompetitive decks, and you quit early enough in games that people are actually complaining about it, then it means you're being a bad loser. When you "drop your head on the table in figuratively passed out relief" you're being a drama queen and making a big deal out of your win. It's painfully obvious you badly wanted to win when you do that, and denying it IS lying to yourself.
If this is the premise of your following statements, then I think it's only right that I leave them out and no longer respond much.
Relief = Drama queen? What universe do you live in?
I'm relieved that the game is over. Period. God, I live a busy life. I'm a working man. There's only so many EDH games I can play at a given time. You get that? TIME.
I don't rush my games but if you've already eliminated any hope of me interacting with what's on the table then there is no point.
Besides, you think I complain when I have people conceding on me? Heck no! You'll just get a shrug and an 'Okay'.
When you concede that way, it kind of minimizes the experience of the other person winning.
When you're building up a combo or an engine I've already seen a hundred times before and I got no answers to, what's the point? You may like reruns but I don't.
(ADMIT IT: YOU QUIT EARLY BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THE EXPERIENCE OF LOSING. BECAUSE A TRUE VORTHOS WOULD PLAY IT OUT. BECAUSE THE FLAVOR OF THE EXPERIENCE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE OUTCOME, RIGHT? LOSING=DEATH SO WOULDN'T THE REAL PLANESWALKER, FACING CERTAIN DEATH, ALWAYS FIGHT TO THE LAST MAN & BREATH?)
What flavor? You said it yourself that their decks lack flavor. I quit because I've been locked down for the next 10+ turns. Again. I quit because you play a combo I've seen a hundred times over. The worst you can say is not because I hate to lose. The worst you can say is that concede cuz I'm BORED.
Look man, once you've locked me down (especially if it's just 1 on 1 EDH), you might as well just play the game by yourself. I however have other things to do besides watch you.
On everybody else being a jerk:
It's a shame that some of these people have dissed you online or on facebook. If you feel its unfixable, then just abandon these people and join MtGO and play.
If I could actually afford to do that, you think I would've? I can't okay. I'm telling you, my LGS is the only option.
You should ask yourself why you have to look down on (his decks are "hard for you to digest" ) the one guy who goes out of his way to be nice and sympathizes with you.
Dude, you're reading way too much into what I say. The guy I'm talking about hardly represents all the guys I've been playing with and does not represent the worst of them.
Nobody is going to hate you because you're "Vorthos".
Ah, yeah they did. See my frustration? I don't base my hatred because I think being Vorthos is somehow better. I base it because I'm being mistreated for being one.
The others here seem to get that gist. You're not.
Bottom line is that the current April 3, 2012 edition of aleerpsoftware, is incompatible with the LGS people (and my take on WHY this has happened could be completely wrong). Your LGS people might simply all be jerks. If you dont think any of it is your fault, then DON'T STAY. Find other people who are not jerks to hang with. And play MtGO to get your Vorthos fix.
This is all nice if those alternatives actually existed for me in the first place. But they don't.
Magic players are usually not that mean as a group, and even if some of them did end up targeting you on facebook, I highly doubt that most of the LGS players want to make you a pariah or really hurt you.
Usually or not, this my LGS we're talking here. Not the all the ones in the world. Heck, I'm sometimes envious of those who hang around more Vorthos (or even Vorthos-ish) type players and live in countries with more LGS in a single city.
And if you think they don't want to make me a pariah, I could name a few who would.
When you're building up a combo or an engine I've already seen a hundred times before and I got no answers to, what's the point? You may like reruns but I don't.
I may just be too much of a spike to understand, but I need to ask.
If you've seen these combos "a hundred times before" why haven't you fixed your deck(s) to deal with them? I'm sure there's some flavorful, vorthosian cards that could go a long way toward quashing your opponents' plans...
The world isn't going to adapt to you, your only choice is to adapt to it. If it's not possible to find some way to get along with the people at your LGS then stop going there. If it's the only LGS around tough luck. I had a career in construction and the economy bottomed out. I didn't want to move so I found a different career.
I find it hard to feel bad for someone with this problem when I've store hopped multiple times because I grew tired of a certain store's community - I even quit for a period of time because I couldn't find a store I enjoyed playing at. Just learn to adapt or move along - honestly when this post first popped up I thought it was a troll thread.
All this aside, I'm not giving the thumbs up to the spikes trolling you but man, I got to admit, as a spike player if I had some guy at my store who was a heavy vorthos playing themed deck who seemed as caught up as you are with how other people treated him while playing very casual decks I wouldn't be able to be all that nice either. More than likely I would do my best just to distance myself from you rather than torment you but man...The reason you play this game and the reason I play this game are really far part and it's hard to find an easy middle ground.
Leerp - Is it a valid color scheme for your character? =) That is what matters.
I would say yes. Considering his personality, neither white (which would mean Naya) or black (meaning Jund) rub him the right way as a third color. Blue is kind of a middle path for him since he's not as stupid or barbaric as I find recent RG-archetypes tend to be.
Also, give your playgroup a break. They might just not understand. It's like trying to explain to a tiger why it should hang out more often with the Serval- not that they can't get along, but they will probabl never be on the same page.
Yeah but it's not like I don't already do that. Frankly, I feel like I'm being given advice that should be for them. I may not like flavorless combos or Spike-style but I still play so why do they get mad when I don't like to conform to it? I avoid anything that sounds like I'm trying to make them play my way yet they can't extend the same respect to me.
That's why I made this thread. I have no problem playing with other deck types.
I have problems with people who stoop so low just because I play mine.
If you've seen these combos "a hundred times before" why haven't you fixed your deck(s) to deal with them? I'm sure there's some flavorful, vorthosian cards that could go a long way toward quashing your opponents' plans...
There might but I'm a slow deck builder resource wise and I've invested far too much for comfort just to make my current zombie deck stand more than seven turns playing with these people.
Maybe some time in the future I'll settle for a more competitive Vorthos-y deck but again, my resources are limited. It's been really difficult already getting my Intet build to even make it look like it can handle:
A WUBRG who cheats in combos with big creatures
AGWB with a fast sac-engine
A Esper deck with insane artifact ramp whose only weakness is graveyard hate.
If I'm going to follow this advice (and believe, I really want to), I need to find a way to make my upcoming Intet deck just as good WITHOUT sacrificing its flavor/theme.
I've already complained about my LGS like this a couple times on other threads. I get people who say I'm the problem. I get people who say otherwise.
And frankly, even on this thread, I can't say your few words indicate that you've written the best summary. I've agreed with some points here, disagreed with others.
You have a point though that if your'e trying to make me sound like the problem, I grow tired of it. Why?
Because I've seen enough posts on other threads to say that the only way players will ever get along is to accept their differences.
I've accepted that my play style vs theirs sets me up more to lose than to win. Yet the LGS guys whine about how I concede all the time.
Then stop conceding. Some people like the thrill of a match, no matter how one-sided it may appear. Think of it this way: You just took their game away from them. Imagine if, when you picked up a video game, the starting credits rolled, then the final boss came out "Look, you're going to beat me at some point, there's no way I can win, so...thanks and all, but I'll be seeing you. It's not you or anything, no worries man."
You would demand your money back
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Then stop conceding. Some people like the thrill of a match, no matter how one-sided it may appear. Think of it this way: You just took their game away from them. Imagine if, when you picked up a video game, the starting credits rolled, then the final boss came out "Look, you're going to beat me at some point, there's no way I can win, so...thanks and all, but I'll be seeing you. It's not you or anything, no worries man."
Okay sure, if you put it that way, I'll stop conceding but it's not that much different from watching someone play the game by himself.
Even if I don't concede, what else is there to do? One time when someone started whining about how I was about to concede, one guy was about to side with him until he saw my hand and frowned, "No, wait. Actually, he has all grounds."
I did try and hold out a few times before. It just pissed them off nonetheless because I wasn't doing anything.
I know, and it sucks. Maybe watch him combo out, see what his strategy is? If you're going to play magic, especially competitively, you need to be willing to watch solitaire sometimes.
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I'm confused about how people are backstabbing you. If I heard that I would understand more, it just sounds like they mostly just do not understand your playstyle to me.
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I know, and it sucks. Maybe watch him combo out, see what his strategy is? If you're going to play magic, especially competitively, you need to be willing to watch solitaire sometimes.
I have. I even took some combos for my zombie deck that manage to fit in flavor-wise (though it took a while to fit them in deckspace-wise >_> ). How many times is too many though? I mean, when you've got a Blightsteel, a Master Transmuter, and your general Sharuum on the field and all I got is just gonna waste because you're gonna do a bounce combo... I personally just give myself a couple more turns (it was a multiplayer match). :\
I'm confused about how people are backstabbing you. If I heard that I would understand more, it just sounds like they mostly just do not understand your playstyle to me.
They don't and hence, the disrespect. I can tolerate the former but the latter is just... honestly, to go as far as Facebook and then assume I'm a Spike-in-denial.
Ah yes, the flavor of the legend rule. God I love how people explain it the way you do.
Pretty much. I've even seen it said somewhere here that Hasbro doesn't care much about the flavor of M:TG either and that everything from the ending of the novel line, the cessation of the webcomics, and now the suspension (albeit temporary) of Savor the Flavor just goes to prove it.
I can't say I'm just as cynical but I do think that TCGs never had that much support for flavor anyways.
I know that and I've already been doing a bit of 'reversion' to DnD with M:TG used only as a means to pass the time till the DM's ready.
I just wish I didn't have to put up with so much flame, backstabbing, and insults just because of my M:TG playstyle.
All right, noted. I'm just really frustrated right now with all the attitude I've been getting from my group.
Posts merged. -Viricide
No problem at all, and that certainly wasn't an "official" request or anything. Just trying to be helpful In the same vein, you allude to some activities outside of matches (e.g. backstabbing on Facebook) that might be relevant or provide us with a clearer picture of what's going on. It seems like the situation may go beyond just disliking a building/playing style and may be more personal.
Also thanks, Zephynoir. Your examples were clear and insightful.
Why are these cards in your deck?
Assert Authority
Mystic Retrieval
Mystic Speculation
Runic Repetition - especially this one, the flavor text?
How can you differentiate a Vorthos deck from one of these?
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=923031 - Shared Fate Deck, very specific and annoying way to win. I'd say its pretty flavorful, but there is no real connection between the cards.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=752968 - This is a bad deck I made to mess around with...
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=538458 - Purely flavorful deck based around other players making decisions.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=447583 - One of the first decks I made, what is this? Spike/Vorthos...?
From what I can tell Vorthos is based around role playing out the game with an incredibly flavorful deck. Besides the challenge, I don't see a reason why your deck has to be non-competitive.
Finally, do you experience similar circumstances when playing D&D?
All right, but first a slight correction. Mystic Speculation was supposed to be replaced by Worldly Tutor. Must've forgotten about that but there's an explanation there too.
Now sorceries and instants aren't generally as restrictive for me compared to permanents but they have a connection to my character's own style of spellcasting. He's a dragon mage but rides dragons in a manner that's not much different from a fighter pilot. He starts out as RG but goes to become RUG. He's very aggressive but ends up doing so in a really smart way.
I see the dragons as representative of various 'models' of what he rides and his spells are sorta like his arsenal (missiles, bombs, a way to reload etc). I try to use combos that reflect that such as this one I came up with for EDH: Mystic Retrieval + Runic Repetition + Increasing Vengeance + missile spells like Flame Javelin + retrieval cards like Call To Mind or Recollect. When I put them together, I simply like to express a guy who is never out of firepower.
Of course, all of that wouldn't be necessary if I just used Pyromancer Ascension but it's nigh useless in EDH.
He also likes to command Myrs as part of his little launch crew as it were (along with female humanoids for reasons I'm not sure I'd want to share >_>). Hence, you got spells like Assert Authority which is a counterspell that has ties to artifacts. Artifacts actually form a greater part of his U side because when he finally seeks out this color, the result is something like an Izzet Kamen Rider-type character with really explosive moves. The other artifacts you see just tie-in to that more or less.
That would really depend on who you ask actually.
Well the green creatures are the only ones I'm not sure I can reconcile with (unless your deck represents a planeswalker who likes gardening and mind magic :P).
Okay this one, I'm really not sure I can consider Vorthos unless I get an explanation.
Yikes. I think I can see why you said Police. >_>;;
Definitely closer to Vorthos. Then again, as Zephynoir said, tribal decks tend to be one of the stronger/more competitive Vorthos deck-types.
I think the biggest reason is, as a writer, I like to really play around with less game-constrained concepts. Unfortunately, they don't always translate well into the mechanics of the game.
Nope. I suppose its because a Hellfire Warlock with the Strong Heart Vest makes it hard for people to troll you in-game.
Burn is a theme. It does not, in any way, mean you have the flavor of a pyromancer.
Vorthos decks are o rare, almost nobody knows one when they see it. When they do see it, they think it's crap. Tribal can be, but usually isn't, Vorthos as well. Were you like me, and made a Block deck for Faeries, all about them taking your opponents cards, ecause, in your mind, you were sending off the fae to steal dreams for your beloved queen Oona? You might be a Vorthos.
Were you like Spike and built a mono-blue faerie deck with Vedalken Shackles and lots of control? You might not be a Vorthos, but tribe is still there.
I like to steal things- Theme
This tells me a story about a wizard who eventually comes to learn powerful ways of turning his enemies' Magic agaaist them, resulting in their eventual imprisonment and/or demise- Vorthos-ish
Though a true Vorthos is into the true story of the game itself, not just made up stories.
"This deck tells the story of Kamahl and Chainer as they both pit their beliefs against the Cabal." - VORTHOS
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^This
Magic is about two extremely powerful planeswalkers duking it out. They don't have any storylines set in stone. Things just happen as they battle. The story makes itself up.
At least, that's how it's always been for me.
Is RUG a valid color scheme for burn? o.O
Yeah I think I've had this told to me before. Still, my decks lean more to an artistic side than anything mechanics-driven. To simplify the character I based my deck on, he's just a dragon mage who ends up tossed into Ravnica and ends up liking replicate power and time magic after salvaging what was left of the Izzet League.
When I try translating that into the game's mechanics though, well...
Leerp, I really think block constructed or EDH is where you will find the most fun. Maybe Planechase. Also, give your playgroup a break. They might just not understand. It's like trying to explain to a tiger why it should hang out more often with the Serval- not that they can't get along, but they will probabl never be on the same page.
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Now how do you find Vorthos games and what are the deck construction rules? Is it standard, Legacy or EDH construction?
Or was that a joke? =O If so, bravo~!
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So then there is no set format? it could be anything? That makes it really tough to find opponents on the same power level. Maybe the spike in me would like to play some de-powered games and still be able to navigate a path to victory.
I kind of wanted to Build an whole Elspeth and Knights deck, Bant Alara vibe. The deck would be like a set of chess pieces, with Elspeth representing the Queen, Knights of the Reliquary, wall of omens to represent the rook, one drops to represent the pawns... etc.
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Pawns are Mother of Runes, Noble Hierarchs
Bishop = Qasali pridemages
Knights = Knight of the Reliquary
Rooks = Scavenging Ooze
Queen = Elspeth
King = garruk? thrun?
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The Zorthos description on page 1 was more than adequate.
But I really think the problems at the LGS we're discussing is not about some ideological clash between Zorthos and Spikes and Johnnies. I seriously doubt most of the players at the LGS really think of M:TG as having that much to do with their personal identity.
I also seriously doubt that every kid who goes to that gaming shop happens to be a jerk, or even spends that much time thinking about you to want to hate you.
some thoughts:
On Spikes & being a bad winner, sore loser:
Just based on what you've typed here, its 100% obvious that you are a sore loser, and a bad winner. If you play very uncompetitive decks, and you quit early enough in games that people are actually complaining about it, then it means you're being a bad loser. When you "drop your head on the table in figuratively passed out relief" you're being a drama queen and making a big deal out of your win. It's painfully obvious you badly wanted to win when you do that, and denying it IS lying to yourself.
This may not be intentional, but its very obvious to everybody here. I came into this thread with absolutely no bias towards you and never heard of you before, but just one read through, and I can tell you're a sore loser and a bad winner. "Why shouldn't I concede? You've won. Congrats." is technically a congratulations, but the tone of it is really, dismissive and minimizing of the other person, and conveys a lot of negative emotion.
When you concede that way, it kind of minimizes the experience of the other person winning. You dismiss the lack of flavor of their decks, you dismiss their style of play, you minimize their wins, then when YOU win, you make a giant show of how relieved you are to win...
I can tell you right now. People don't like playing with you're making it NOT FUN. Simple as that. Even if you were a spike, they would still dislike dealing with that attitude. If you REALLY don't care about winning or losing, then you should let the game play out a little when you're losing.
(ADMIT IT: YOU QUIT EARLY BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THE EXPERIENCE OF LOSING. BECAUSE A TRUE VORTHOS WOULD PLAY IT OUT. BECAUSE THE FLAVOR OF THE EXPERIENCE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE OUTCOME, RIGHT? LOSING=DEATH SO WOULDN'T THE REAL PLANESWALKER, FACING CERTAIN DEATH, ALWAYS FIGHT TO THE LAST MAN & BREATH?)
No shame in hating to lose, or enjoying your win.
But you have to learn to be a gracious loser and winner. Not put on some kind of drama show every time you get lucky enough to win, while conceding losing games so quickly that it only feels like a rapid "do-over" to the victor.
On everybody else being a jerk:
It's a shame that some of these people have dissed you online or on facebook. If you feel its unfixable, then just abandon these people and join MtGO and play.
You really should look at yourself and ask yourself why things are the way they are.
You should ask yourself why you have to look down on (his decks are "hard for you to digest" ) the one guy who goes out of his way to be nice and sympathizes with you.
On my brother:
Lot of people don't get along with their brother.
Who DO you get along with?
Don't pass it off as "Vorthos-Spike ideologic incompatibility", because Vorthos is NOT a religion or an identity. It's a game style. Don't pass it off as everybody ELSE is just a jerk. Nobody is going to hate you because you're "Vorthos".
-
Bottom line is that the current April 3, 2012 edition of aleerpsoftware, is incompatible with the LGS people (and my take on WHY this has happened could be completely wrong). Your LGS people might simply all be jerks. If you dont think any of it is your fault, then DON'T STAY. Find other people who are not jerks to hang with. And play MtGO to get your Vorthos fix.
If you are willing to concede that some of this is your fault, then try to change some of it. You seem like a smart guy, a creative person, with a lot to offer as a friend. You just need a lot of work on some of your social skills and being able to see things from other people's viewpoints (exactly the flaw that you're accusing the LGS people of). I would ask that guy who is "sympathetic" to your gamestyle, what people really think of you, and ask him whether there's anything you could do to change the situation. I bet he'd have a ton of excellent advice.
Magic players are usually not that mean as a group, and even if some of them did end up targeting you on facebook, I highly doubt that most of the LGS players want to make you a pariah or really hurt you.
You seem so hellbent on siding with these guys when you don't even know them. I do. I know where to find them on Facebook. You don't. I'm the one sitting at their tables, you're not.
Finally, I wouldn't be ranting here if the treatment I've been getting didn't start going THAT bad. Please, I want you to focus more on these facts:
1. My words and opinions on their decks had been twisted out of proportion.
2. I've been backstabbed constantly now.
3. My decks get dissed for the way I built them to the point that they start hitting below the belt.
If this is the premise of your following statements, then I think it's only right that I leave them out and no longer respond much.
Relief = Drama queen? What universe do you live in?
I'm relieved that the game is over. Period. God, I live a busy life. I'm a working man. There's only so many EDH games I can play at a given time. You get that? TIME.
I don't rush my games but if you've already eliminated any hope of me interacting with what's on the table then there is no point.
Besides, you think I complain when I have people conceding on me? Heck no! You'll just get a shrug and an 'Okay'.
When you're building up a combo or an engine I've already seen a hundred times before and I got no answers to, what's the point? You may like reruns but I don't.
What flavor? You said it yourself that their decks lack flavor. I quit because I've been locked down for the next 10+ turns. Again. I quit because you play a combo I've seen a hundred times over. The worst you can say is not because I hate to lose. The worst you can say is that concede cuz I'm BORED.
Look man, once you've locked me down (especially if it's just 1 on 1 EDH), you might as well just play the game by yourself. I however have other things to do besides watch you.
If I could actually afford to do that, you think I would've? I can't okay. I'm telling you, my LGS is the only option.
Dude, you're reading way too much into what I say. The guy I'm talking about hardly represents all the guys I've been playing with and does not represent the worst of them.
Lesee...
My co-workers.
My former college classmates.
Other online friends on a religious forum.
That's actually a fairly large group of people. Unfortunately, they don't play this game.
Ah, yeah they did. See my frustration? I don't base my hatred because I think being Vorthos is somehow better. I base it because I'm being mistreated for being one.
The others here seem to get that gist. You're not.
This is all nice if those alternatives actually existed for me in the first place. But they don't.
The best I got is an offline cockatrice.
Usually or not, this my LGS we're talking here. Not the all the ones in the world. Heck, I'm sometimes envious of those who hang around more Vorthos (or even Vorthos-ish) type players and live in countries with more LGS in a single city.
And if you think they don't want to make me a pariah, I could name a few who would.
I may just be too much of a spike to understand, but I need to ask.
If you've seen these combos "a hundred times before" why haven't you fixed your deck(s) to deal with them? I'm sure there's some flavorful, vorthosian cards that could go a long way toward quashing your opponents' plans...
U Soramaro, First to Dream U (decklist)
W Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite W (decklist)
Nath of the Gilt-Leaf (decklist)
Glissa, The Traitor (decklist)
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Borborygmos, Enraged (decklist)
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG
WRG Uril, the Miststalker WRG (decklist)
I find it hard to feel bad for someone with this problem when I've store hopped multiple times because I grew tired of a certain store's community - I even quit for a period of time because I couldn't find a store I enjoyed playing at. Just learn to adapt or move along - honestly when this post first popped up I thought it was a troll thread.
All this aside, I'm not giving the thumbs up to the spikes trolling you but man, I got to admit, as a spike player if I had some guy at my store who was a heavy vorthos playing themed deck who seemed as caught up as you are with how other people treated him while playing very casual decks I wouldn't be able to be all that nice either. More than likely I would do my best just to distance myself from you rather than torment you but man...The reason you play this game and the reason I play this game are really far part and it's hard to find an easy middle ground.
Currently Playing in Modern: U/W Control
It's almost unanimous.
Yet you are casually dismissing everyone.
Think on this.
I would say yes. Considering his personality, neither white (which would mean Naya) or black (meaning Jund) rub him the right way as a third color. Blue is kind of a middle path for him since he's not as stupid or barbaric as I find recent RG-archetypes tend to be.
Yeah but it's not like I don't already do that. Frankly, I feel like I'm being given advice that should be for them. I may not like flavorless combos or Spike-style but I still play so why do they get mad when I don't like to conform to it? I avoid anything that sounds like I'm trying to make them play my way yet they can't extend the same respect to me.
That's why I made this thread. I have no problem playing with other deck types.
I have problems with people who stoop so low just because I play mine.
There might but I'm a slow deck builder resource wise and I've invested far too much for comfort just to make my current zombie deck stand more than seven turns playing with these people.
Maybe some time in the future I'll settle for a more competitive Vorthos-y deck but again, my resources are limited. It's been really difficult already getting my Intet build to even make it look like it can handle:
A WUBRG who cheats in combos with big creatures
AGWB with a fast sac-engine
A Esper deck with insane artifact ramp whose only weakness is graveyard hate.
If I'm going to follow this advice (and believe, I really want to), I need to find a way to make my upcoming Intet deck just as good WITHOUT sacrificing its flavor/theme.
So far, no luck.
I've already complained about my LGS like this a couple times on other threads. I get people who say I'm the problem. I get people who say otherwise.
And frankly, even on this thread, I can't say your few words indicate that you've written the best summary. I've agreed with some points here, disagreed with others.
You have a point though that if your'e trying to make me sound like the problem, I grow tired of it. Why?
Because I've seen enough posts on other threads to say that the only way players will ever get along is to accept their differences.
I've accepted that my play style vs theirs sets me up more to lose than to win. Yet the LGS guys whine about how I concede all the time.
You would demand your money back
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Okay sure, if you put it that way, I'll stop conceding but it's not that much different from watching someone play the game by himself.
Even if I don't concede, what else is there to do? One time when someone started whining about how I was about to concede, one guy was about to side with him until he saw my hand and frowned, "No, wait. Actually, he has all grounds."
I did try and hold out a few times before. It just pissed them off nonetheless because I wasn't doing anything.
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Modern: Storm, Jund, Ghast Blaster, Elf Warriors
Legacy: RUG Cascade, Imperial Painter, Affinity, Dredge, Elves, Merfolk, Pox, Dragon Stompie, Goblins, ANT, Belcher
Classic: Delver, Dredge, Jacerater
Draft: I will draft basically any format online (other than Masques)
Pauper: MTGO's #1 most handsome Pauper Storm player
I have. I even took some combos for my zombie deck that manage to fit in flavor-wise (though it took a while to fit them in deckspace-wise >_> ). How many times is too many though? I mean, when you've got a Blightsteel, a Master Transmuter, and your general Sharuum on the field and all I got is just gonna waste because you're gonna do a bounce combo... I personally just give myself a couple more turns (it was a multiplayer match). :\
They don't and hence, the disrespect. I can tolerate the former but the latter is just... honestly, to go as far as Facebook and then assume I'm a Spike-in-denial.