...I don't want to stop doing things because of her...
Part of a serious relationship is compromise, and part of compromise is sacrifice. You are going to give things up if you want this relationship to work, and so will she. You don't have to become one person, but you do have to be able to live with each other.
Part of a serious relationship is compromise, and part of compromise is sacrifice. You are going to give things up if you want this relationship to work, and so will she. You don't have to become one person, but you do have to be able to live with each other.
To go along with the serious part. Figure out what you want to give up, and what you want to keep. If she wants you to toss out things and activities that you want to keep, then she's not the one for you (or at least, not right now).
Yeah you make compromises. But if you feel you're being forced to fundamentally change as a person, then there's someone else who'll work with you as is. I had an ex who would flip her **** over this, so I looked into people who would be fine with it or even want to participate.
Sex acts exist on a scale from emotionally intimate to strictly physical, things hovering around both extremes are fine things to have in your life. But you'll save you and your partner(s) a whole lot of grief if you take a couple talks to figure out whose lines lay where.
@ExImperialDragon: Thanks for the advice, man! I'm worried that, if we're to keep dating, this stuff can snowball into a giant jealousy-fight because she doesn't trust me anymore.
We're not separate entities: We're a single unit known as a parent, now, and we've never been happier, even if my kid throws up on me all the damn time but never throws up on her lol. Not everyone has to be as homogenous as we are, but I will say this: You'll be compromising a lot in any serious relationship. You won't be one entity, but damn if you don't have to give up some things.
Yes, but you have a child and you live together. That's a whole different level of commitment. One that I know I'm not ready to step into.
Part of a serious relationship is compromise, and part of compromise is sacrifice. You are going to give things up if you want this relationship to work, and so will she. You don't have to become one person, but you do have to be able to live with each other.
I know Stardust, that's why we're not married. We don't even live together. We've been dating for 6 years and I still don't think I'm ready to live with her - but I don't feel I love her less because of that.
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YOU ARE SURPRISED BY A MANTICORE! IT QUICKLY SHREDS YOUR FLESH AND DEVOURS YOU!
There is a reason it is a sin to fantasise about other women , which is that all this porn you watch gives you an idealised view of women and teaches you to think it's ok to objectify them.
There is a huge difference between sex and "making love" and while you are fantasizing about these other porn girls you are probably mentally and emotionally scaring this girl you apparently love. Think about that for a while.
Yeah, I'm scaring her - that's the whole point. That's why I asked for help. I like her and I don't want this thing snowballing into she never trusting me again.
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YOU ARE SURPRISED BY A MANTICORE! IT QUICKLY SHREDS YOUR FLESH AND DEVOURS YOU!
Yeah, I'm scaring her - that's the whole point. That's why I asked for help. I like her and I don't want this thing snowballing into she never trusting me again.
I think you've got the advice for that. Apologize until you two are talking again, then talk.
What do you expect to be free to do? Why is X or Y thing important to you?
Does she disapprove of X? Why does she feel this way?
Can you work out a compromise of some X? If no, what is more important to you, her or freedom to X?
Is it her? What can you do to strengthen that?
Just lay all the **** out there. You want to stick with this girl, that's great. You now know cybersex is out the window, find out why exactly and you can work on avoiding things of a similar nature and giving her a loving boost in the realm of whatever hang up makes her dislike that stuff.
Read ExImperialDragon's previous post describing when he got into a similar situation.
Seems to say apologize then talk.
He's right you don't keep all your personal freedoms in a relationship, you give some of those up for greater benefits. It is up to you two to figure out which of each of your individual freedoms are gone, ideally by talking about them, and then up to you to figure out if what you gain is worth more than what you're losing.
Sounds like you've made up your mind on the last part. So stop jerking the little lady around and find out what works for her.
My girlfriend got really mad at me because she found out I have an account on a cam site. I left a message to someone on the site, she found out and now she's disappointed and feels like I cheated on her.
Is she being too rough on me? The message sounded like I wanted to meet the girl, but I was just messing around.
Of COURSE it's cheating. Of COURSE she has every right in the world to be angry at you.
I think this logic is flawed. Strip clubs are more like porn, there's no real interaction. It's somebody who doesn't think twice about you dancing around for money.
You're going into an establishment to have other women dance topless/naked around you and you don't think that's cheating?
While I respect Coffee's opinion that I don't love her. I don't agree with him. There's no measurement of love outside each person's own affirmation. I do love her.
You love her so much you're screwing around with other girls and then are blaming her for being upset?
I don't know. Maybe I'm just idealizing, but I don't want to stop doing things because of her (I'm not talking just about cybersex now), as I don't want her to stop doing her things because of me.
Maybe she's dating someone who's incredibly immature and a fool and she deserves better.
We're not a single person, each of us has our own needs and desires and trying to match every single one of them would drive us insane.
So you're giving up and not even trying to meet the most rudimentary idea of being a couple, which is being a couple, which means two?
Want to explain again how much you're in love with this girl?
Yeah, I'm scaring her - that's the whole point. That's why I asked for help. I like her and I don't want this thing snowballing into she never trusting me again.
You were JUST talking about how you don't want to give up your online porn sites. So what about this indicates to her that she should trust you won't upset her again by doing the exact same thing?
On a side note: I feel some people here are too self-righteous. Every man watches porn. What's wrong with it?
Maybe it's the fact that you're hurting the girl you're dating by going to cybersex websites and then have the gall to blame her and then blame us for pointing this out to you.
But that would require you to accept the possibility that you're the problem.
You love her so much you're screwing around with other girls and then are blaming her for being upset?
Maybe she's dating someone who's incredibly immature and a fool and she deserves better.
Was it blaming or trying to wrap his head around a strangely foreign point of view? Could be she's the fool and he's doing just fine. In either case they need to split or talk out some changes.
The definition of creating is so nebulous these days, with open relationships, swinging and other such subcultures becoming more and more socially acceptable, that arguing over it is pointless. Different people have different definitions of cheating. It's not an objective thing.
The fact is, you did something which your SO is not okay with. From her perspective, it's cheating, so for the purposes of your relationship, it's cheating. You have two options:
1. Accept her definition, apologize, clarify, and move on, with the understanding that you need to stop this behavior for the duration of the relationship.
or
2. Decline to accept her definition, and break up.
It's honestly that simple. It doesn't matter if her definition matches yours, all that matters is what you can agree on for the purposes of your relationship.
I'm not even going to give you my thoughts on weather or not it is cheating, because what I think doesn't matter in this situation. Only your opinion and her opinion matters.
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you could challenge your girlfriend into doing some of the stuff on the camsite for you.
its a huge and difficult time investment but you'd be surprised at how many women can be convienced/come around to doing "near porn style things" in the bed room.
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Huh. I'd say of course it is not cheating. He has every right to be confused as she does to be upset.
*Blinks* Did you read the OP?
He opened up an account on a camsite and was messaging one or more girls on it. He's having cybersex with other women. And now he's pissed at his girlfriend for being understandably upset at him for cheating on her.
And you're defending him? Why?
Was it blaming or trying to wrap his head around a strangely foreign point of view?
What is strangely foreign about "don't fool around with other women when dating someone?"
Could be she's the fool and he's doing just fine.
No. She's not being a fool for being upset at him. She's being a fool for not having not already dumped his ass, which she should.
Women tend to like to have security in a relationship, especially if they're sending out the feelers whether you're "husband material." If you want short flings, I'm not going to fault a young man for wanting to sow his wild oats or whatever if the woman consents. However, for committed relationships it takes well commitment. The good news is that screw ups combined with honesty and backed up by long term action can help solidify a relationship well into the future. But if you want to have a good long-term relationship, you have to work each day at it laying the foundation.
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Yes, it is very much cheating, if for no other reason than the fact that your girlfriend thinks it is!
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I could see the confusion. Porn is so abundant on the net, that you end up just flipping channels and trying different things to get your rocks off. I see a pretty simple solution, cut the cyber camming and just keep it to porn. I don't really think you're going to stop masturbating for your girlfriend and porn is harmless enough. Cutting out porn entirely seems antithetical to who you are (and I feel honestly a lot of guys). But dropping cyber camming (or other forms of cyber interactivity) should be a compromise you'd be willing to make. If you're not willing to give that up for her, than you probably should break up with her.
Let her know that you thought cyber cam was just a subset of porn, but if she doesn't like it, you'll stop doing it. If she doesn't want you want you to look at any porn, well then, time to move on.
He opened up an account on a camsite and was messaging one or more girls on it. He's having cybersex with other women. And now he's pissed at his girlfriend for being understandably upset at him for cheating on her.
And you're defending him? Why?
I did read the OP, I got a confused vibe more than a pissed vibe (edit: but I dunno, maybe you're right about that). I think anger or blaming is unacceptable but that confusion is understandable since different people can see the same activity as a good thing or a bad thing (for totally random examples: drug use, motorcycle use, herbal medicine, or WoW). I think in this particular case there is an underlying communication problem that is more pressing than the OP masturbating along with a cam show. He should have these things pretty well figured out after six years of a relationship.
As for defending. There was the whole part where I keep telling him to get his **** together and that he is the problem.
What is strangely foreign about "don't fool around with other women when dating someone?"
In your mind, this is cheating. In OP's mind, this is porn. Kaboom! Two foreign points of view that each person thinks makes no sense! That is what can be considered strangely foreign about your stance, and why the OP considering it porn is strangely foreign to you. There is no inherent problem with holding either point of view. The problem lies in not having figured what flies between two specific people after six years of dating.
No. She's not being a fool for being upset at him. She's being a fool for not having not already dumped his ass, which she should.
Maybe. Maybe. And maybe. Each answer depends on these two specifically, not on our views of what is right. I think it is important to listen to and understand other peoples' points of view in a relationship. It makes it a lot easier to avoid this kind of mess, or just figure out you're ready to end it.
you could challenge your girlfriend into doing some of the stuff on the camsite for you.
its a huge and difficult time investment but you'd be surprised at how many women can be convienced/come around to doing "near porn style things" in the bed room.
This may have been answered, but are you doing things or discussing scenarios with the woman on the camsite that you wouldn't with your current lady? If yes, that is a much bigger problem I would think.
From the female perspective: If you were my boyfriend and I found out you were doing that, my first question would be "why aren't you doing that with me?". That's the biggest thing that leads me to feel like it's cheating. You're going around doing it and then hiding it from me. This, however, doesn't take into account the fact that you are having a back and forth with another actual person, which is where the problem lies. Finding out about it would make me feel inadequate as well as mistrustful.
I am fine with my partner going and looking at pornographic materials occasionally, so long as it does not affect our sexual interactions. The expectation here is that he is not interacting with other people in the course of this viewing. If I found out that he was, this would make me upset. In a monogamous relationship, you do not perform sexual activities with another person, even if it's over the internet.
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If you want to fix this while remaining honest, you should tell her that SHE is RIGHT, that it's cheating in HER EYES, and that this is what you have learned now. Because she feels betrayed, and you're sorry you made her feel that way. Make that really, really clear that it was your mistake, but you don't want her to lose faith in you because...
Thank you a lot, Dcartist. If anyone helped me in this thread, it was you. I followed your advice, and she understood how I felt, and I think I understand how she feels.
You have two options:
1. Accept her definition, apologize, clarify, and move on, with the understanding that you need to stop this behavior for the duration of the relationship.
or
2. Decline to accept her definition, and break up.
Actually, I still don't think what I did was cheating. I just accept that she thinks that, and I won't do it again because she feels bad about it.
What is strangely foreign about "don't fool around with other women when dating someone?"
Highroller, we differ about this. The thing is I didn't fool around with other woman. I saw them through a webcam and we're miles away and I don't even now her name. Unfortunately, my girlfriend agrees with you and that was the problem.
Let her know that you thought cyber cam was just a subset of porn, but if she doesn't like it, you'll stop doing it. If she doesn't want you want you to look at any porn, well then, time to move on.
I think it is important to listen to and understand other peoples' points of view in a relationship. It makes it a lot easier to avoid this kind of mess, or just figure out you're ready to end it.
Yeah, but this is easier said than done. You just don't go "Hey baby, do you mind if I masturbate to another women on the internet?"
This may have been answered, but are you doing things or discussing scenarios with the woman on the camsite that you wouldn't with your current lady? If yes, that is a much bigger problem I would think.
Not really, Bobo. It's not like I'm into S&M, swinging or other nontraditional porn. It's just that I really like to watch. For me it was just porn.
From the female perspective: If you were my boyfriend and I found out you were doing that, my first question would be "why aren't you doing that with me?".
That was exactly the first question she asked. I don't know, maybe she wasn't available at the time and I didn't think it was a big deal.
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YOU ARE SURPRISED BY A MANTICORE! IT QUICKLY SHREDS YOUR FLESH AND DEVOURS YOU!
Yeah, but this is easier said than done. You just don't go "Hey baby, do you mind if I masturbate to another women on the internet?"
True, what my wife and I say is more along the lines of "Hey baby, I've been thinking about *activity here* with/to/from so-and-so." since the internet is just porn to us.
But fundamentally, that is the approach we use. I understand your hesitation, it takes a while to reach that level of trust. And even then it takes a bit of practice and even more trust to lay bare your personal desires directly. We kinda just parceled out those talks over the years. At first, it was in response us calling 'Boo!' on each other for one thing or another (similar to the OP); then we sat down and decided to stop jerking each other around and laid out some (monogamish) boundaries based on what our brainstorming session could imagine for the future. Then over more years we tested those bounds and adjusted accordingly after talking it out (sometimes for more freedom, sometimes for less).
I think it is worth working to get to the point at which you are comfortable asking the above question. Takes a while to get there, but then this type of drama has served it's one viable purpose, getting to a point where this type of drama just doesn't exist anymore. It really doesn't matter where you to decide to draw your lines, but to me, it is just so easy to be together once you're both open books (or in my case, open smut mags :D).
Highroller, we differ about this. The thing is I didn't fool around with other woman. I saw them through a webcam and we're miles away and I don't even now her name.
Except for the fact that you're having cybersex with them, WHICH IS CHEATING.
And you're trying to mitigate this by saying you're cheating on your girlfriend with women you've never met and don't even know the names of? What about that is supposed to help you?
Unfortunately, my girlfriend agrees with you and that was the problem.
No, the problem is you were cheating on your girlfriend and to this day you still haven't admitted to being wrong, or demonstrated any understanding of why she might be upset, or any sign that you're going to stop.
The problem is not that your girlfriend is upset. Your girlfriend is upset because she's dating someone who apparently is still in grade school. That's the real problem.
End the relationship now. Since she's not going to do it, do it for her. Then she can move on to a relationship that has the remotest potential of working.
A relationship is about trust, communication, loyalty, and love.
You define what is and isn't faithful with your partner, and then you stick to it. Most girls I've dated have been happy to mutually agree about what kind of flirtation (and beyond) is allowed with other people.
In high school, I was in a serious relationship where the girl and I basically decided that cuddling wasn't cheating, since we were both really big fans of that kind of affection, and perpetually sleep deprived and wanting to nap on our other friends.
In college, most people I dated pretty much agreed that computer time was personal, and computer FWB's were allowed.
However, just because a lot of people like to be computer-poly, doesn't mean that you should assume that when you date someone new.
When you date someone and the rules haven't been established, go classic. Dress nicely all the time until she tells you that you don't need a collared shirt for Taco Bell, pay for everything until the money conversation happens, and assume that you're monogamous until you find the time to work out those boundaries.
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I went to chatrooms and flirted with others for laughs, while in a relationship. It's just harmless fun, nothing bad.
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Part of a serious relationship is compromise, and part of compromise is sacrifice. You are going to give things up if you want this relationship to work, and so will she. You don't have to become one person, but you do have to be able to live with each other.
Yeah you make compromises. But if you feel you're being forced to fundamentally change as a person, then there's someone else who'll work with you as is. I had an ex who would flip her **** over this, so I looked into people who would be fine with it or even want to participate.
Sex acts exist on a scale from emotionally intimate to strictly physical, things hovering around both extremes are fine things to have in your life. But you'll save you and your partner(s) a whole lot of grief if you take a couple talks to figure out whose lines lay where.
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Yes, but you have a child and you live together. That's a whole different level of commitment. One that I know I'm not ready to step into.
I know Stardust, that's why we're not married. We don't even live together. We've been dating for 6 years and I still don't think I'm ready to live with her - but I don't feel I love her less because of that.
Thanks, I really don't want to go into that.
Sorry. I keep forgetting about the religious folk.
Yeah, I'm scaring her - that's the whole point. That's why I asked for help. I like her and I don't want this thing snowballing into she never trusting me again.
What do you expect to be free to do? Why is X or Y thing important to you?
Does she disapprove of X? Why does she feel this way?
Can you work out a compromise of some X? If no, what is more important to you, her or freedom to X?
Is it her? What can you do to strengthen that?
Just lay all the **** out there. You want to stick with this girl, that's great. You now know cybersex is out the window, find out why exactly and you can work on avoiding things of a similar nature and giving her a loving boost in the realm of whatever hang up makes her dislike that stuff.
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Read ExImperialDragon's previous post describing when he got into a similar situation.
I'm off the internet for today. Thanks for the input, everyone.
He's right you don't keep all your personal freedoms in a relationship, you give some of those up for greater benefits. It is up to you two to figure out which of each of your individual freedoms are gone, ideally by talking about them, and then up to you to figure out if what you gain is worth more than what you're losing.
Sounds like you've made up your mind on the last part. So stop jerking the little lady around and find out what works for her.
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I suggest couples therapy so you can lay this all out on the table in a safe space, with a mediator to prevent further escalation.
And, not to be that guy, but if you can't stop doing it at the expense of others, have you considered you might have an addiction to it?
Of COURSE it's cheating. Of COURSE she has every right in the world to be angry at you.
You're going into an establishment to have other women dance topless/naked around you and you don't think that's cheating?
You love her so much you're screwing around with other girls and then are blaming her for being upset?
Maybe she's dating someone who's incredibly immature and a fool and she deserves better.
So you're giving up and not even trying to meet the most rudimentary idea of being a couple, which is being a couple, which means two?
Want to explain again how much you're in love with this girl?
You were JUST talking about how you don't want to give up your online porn sites. So what about this indicates to her that she should trust you won't upset her again by doing the exact same thing?
Maybe it's the fact that you're hurting the girl you're dating by going to cybersex websites and then have the gall to blame her and then blame us for pointing this out to you.
But that would require you to accept the possibility that you're the problem.
Was it blaming or trying to wrap his head around a strangely foreign point of view? Could be she's the fool and he's doing just fine. In either case they need to split or talk out some changes.
I agree he is the source of the problem, but I think we disagree what the problem is.
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The definition of creating is so nebulous these days, with open relationships, swinging and other such subcultures becoming more and more socially acceptable, that arguing over it is pointless. Different people have different definitions of cheating. It's not an objective thing.
The fact is, you did something which your SO is not okay with. From her perspective, it's cheating, so for the purposes of your relationship, it's cheating. You have two options:
1. Accept her definition, apologize, clarify, and move on, with the understanding that you need to stop this behavior for the duration of the relationship.
or
2. Decline to accept her definition, and break up.
It's honestly that simple. It doesn't matter if her definition matches yours, all that matters is what you can agree on for the purposes of your relationship.
I'm not even going to give you my thoughts on weather or not it is cheating, because what I think doesn't matter in this situation. Only your opinion and her opinion matters.
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its a huge and difficult time investment but you'd be surprised at how many women can be convienced/come around to doing "near porn style things" in the bed room.
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Porn is questionable, this situation there's another person, kinda hard to not be cheating.
Not a huge deal, just move on, if she won't forgive you find a new one, if she will just stick to porn.
*Blinks* Did you read the OP?
He opened up an account on a camsite and was messaging one or more girls on it. He's having cybersex with other women. And now he's pissed at his girlfriend for being understandably upset at him for cheating on her.
And you're defending him? Why?
What is strangely foreign about "don't fool around with other women when dating someone?"
No. She's not being a fool for being upset at him. She's being a fool for not having not already dumped his ass, which she should.
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Let her know that you thought cyber cam was just a subset of porn, but if she doesn't like it, you'll stop doing it. If she doesn't want you want you to look at any porn, well then, time to move on.
As for defending. There was the whole part where I keep telling him to get his **** together and that he is the problem.
In your mind, this is cheating. In OP's mind, this is porn. Kaboom! Two foreign points of view that each person thinks makes no sense! That is what can be considered strangely foreign about your stance, and why the OP considering it porn is strangely foreign to you. There is no inherent problem with holding either point of view. The problem lies in not having figured what flies between two specific people after six years of dating.
Maybe. Maybe. And maybe. Each answer depends on these two specifically, not on our views of what is right. I think it is important to listen to and understand other peoples' points of view in a relationship. It makes it a lot easier to avoid this kind of mess, or just figure out you're ready to end it.
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This may have been answered, but are you doing things or discussing scenarios with the woman on the camsite that you wouldn't with your current lady? If yes, that is a much bigger problem I would think.
I am fine with my partner going and looking at pornographic materials occasionally, so long as it does not affect our sexual interactions. The expectation here is that he is not interacting with other people in the course of this viewing. If I found out that he was, this would make me upset. In a monogamous relationship, you do not perform sexual activities with another person, even if it's over the internet.
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Thank you a lot, Dcartist. If anyone helped me in this thread, it was you. I followed your advice, and she understood how I felt, and I think I understand how she feels.
Actually, I still don't think what I did was cheating. I just accept that she thinks that, and I won't do it again because she feels bad about it.
And send you the link? Yeah, right. Nice try though
Highroller, we differ about this. The thing is I didn't fool around with other woman. I saw them through a webcam and we're miles away and I don't even now her name. Unfortunately, my girlfriend agrees with you and that was the problem.
Yeah, that is what happened.
Yes, Redwood, that was the tonic.
Yeah, but this is easier said than done. You just don't go "Hey baby, do you mind if I masturbate to another women on the internet?"
Not really, Bobo. It's not like I'm into S&M, swinging or other nontraditional porn. It's just that I really like to watch. For me it was just porn.
That was exactly the first question she asked. I don't know, maybe she wasn't available at the time and I didn't think it was a big deal.
But fundamentally, that is the approach we use. I understand your hesitation, it takes a while to reach that level of trust. And even then it takes a bit of practice and even more trust to lay bare your personal desires directly. We kinda just parceled out those talks over the years. At first, it was in response us calling 'Boo!' on each other for one thing or another (similar to the OP); then we sat down and decided to stop jerking each other around and laid out some (monogamish) boundaries based on what our brainstorming session could imagine for the future. Then over more years we tested those bounds and adjusted accordingly after talking it out (sometimes for more freedom, sometimes for less).
I think it is worth working to get to the point at which you are comfortable asking the above question. Takes a while to get there, but then this type of drama has served it's one viable purpose, getting to a point where this type of drama just doesn't exist anymore. It really doesn't matter where you to decide to draw your lines, but to me, it is just so easy to be together once you're both open books (or in my case, open smut mags :D).
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Except for the fact that you're having cybersex with them, WHICH IS CHEATING.
And you're trying to mitigate this by saying you're cheating on your girlfriend with women you've never met and don't even know the names of? What about that is supposed to help you?
No, the problem is you were cheating on your girlfriend and to this day you still haven't admitted to being wrong, or demonstrated any understanding of why she might be upset, or any sign that you're going to stop.
The problem is not that your girlfriend is upset. Your girlfriend is upset because she's dating someone who apparently is still in grade school. That's the real problem.
End the relationship now. Since she's not going to do it, do it for her. Then she can move on to a relationship that has the remotest potential of working.
You define what is and isn't faithful with your partner, and then you stick to it. Most girls I've dated have been happy to mutually agree about what kind of flirtation (and beyond) is allowed with other people.
In high school, I was in a serious relationship where the girl and I basically decided that cuddling wasn't cheating, since we were both really big fans of that kind of affection, and perpetually sleep deprived and wanting to nap on our other friends.
In college, most people I dated pretty much agreed that computer time was personal, and computer FWB's were allowed.
However, just because a lot of people like to be computer-poly, doesn't mean that you should assume that when you date someone new.
When you date someone and the rules haven't been established, go classic. Dress nicely all the time until she tells you that you don't need a collared shirt for Taco Bell, pay for everything until the money conversation happens, and assume that you're monogamous until you find the time to work out those boundaries.
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