Everyone has an associated stigma. Goths, hipsters, jocks, clubbers, nerds, mtgplayers, etc. We well never be fully understood for who we are just by the looks. If he's into goth-looking-girls, let him have fun with them. It's not objectification, it's just knowing what is attractive to you.
You could totally argue that I was objectifying here, I wouldn't disagree.
Got the vibe that most of them were deranged, mentally disturbed, and emotionally unstable.
Actually, most of the goth girls that I've met in my life have been quite intelligent. I can't vouch for their emotional stability one way or another, but they seem to be quite less neurotic than the girls I dated in high school, which is a plus.
I stopped posting on MTGS for reasons, but I have to say something about this.
This thread is more than offensive.
As an active part of my local goth community (played in several bands, helped people who organized parties, etc) I can say we're ****ing tired of "tourists" looking for getting laid with goth women. I know you guys find corsets sexy, go get a dumb blonde cheerleader and make her wear it. Stay away from people when you're part of a stereotype who never respected us and your only interest is sex. Its boring, tiring, to have to deal with people in our scenes because at some point it gets trendy or hip and people just wants the benefits but none of the stigma. I had to fight people in high school because I got my nails blackpainted and now the same people wants to have sex with my friends?
Seriously, if you can't find goth girls, thats good. That means they're doing it right.
Keep it that way.
Honestly, this is why my original suggestion (before the art topics came up) was in regards to actually doing more than playing a role - if he's attracted to the culture he certainly should immerse himself in it completely.
But yes, there is of course the option of "faux-Goth" as well.
Quote from Rivaltuna »
Actually, most of the goth girls that I've met in my life have been quite intelligent. I can't vouch for their emotional stability one way or another, but they seem to be quite less neurotic than the girls I dated in high school, which is a plus.
I'd tend to agree from what I've seen of them (including experience with my wife, who as stated earlier was sort of a "proto-Goth" in her younger days), Goths tend to start that way because they're damaged - but at the same time it tends to help with the mending process.
Almost everyone has some sort of damage/baggage - and part of being Goth to me seems to be externalizing all of it and shedding a large portion of it.
At least from an outside perspective where my only real direct input is the wife, who as I said was "Goth-ish" back in the late 80's before "Goth" was really a thing. Rest is just outside perspective stuff from an old guy.
But it's always better if you care for people of a culture, no matter the culture, to fully immerse yourself in said culture - be it with a foreigner, someone of a different faith, or a clique like Goths - even if the relationships end up temporary, it will make you a more interesting person for the future for when you do find someone to settle down with.
I'm wondering what kind of jock plays mtg. If sex is all that important to you I would suggest you go to college man them college birds are fly.
Don't have to remind me - I live near the largest F:M ratio college in the nation (Towson State University) - wife never lets me forget every time we drive past and my eye wanders for a second....
When I was in florida, two of the only people i could tolerate at all in the shop i had to play at were jocks. one was a football player and the other was a state-champion wrestler.
you get all types everywhere, even if it isn't necessarily common.
edit- I also would like to go on record stating that the reason i hated every magic player in florida was NOT because i was a jock and they weren't. It was because they were a bunch of douchebags. Now that i'm back in NJ, I'm playing with my original crowd again and couldn't be happier.
double edit- I'd also like to state that i AM teased more than i tease anyone else in the store. it's all in good fun, but everyone pretty much gangs up on me for being a jock. It's kind of hard not to when you see me sitting and calculating how many calories i've got left in a day, eating grilled chicken and salad pretty much constantly. aside from the fact that other than magic, we have nothing in common, me and EVERYONE at the shop i'm at get along very well
It depends, a true gothic lifestyle is a spiritual/philosophical viewpoint, that the essence of existence hangs in the balance of life and death... that when we breath in we are alive and when we breath out we are dead until the next breath. This idea of hanging in the delicate balance of mortality often brings morose thoughts and other dark ideas, but it can also be viewed as a place of extreme beauty and peace where one can reflect on existence.
Early pre-cursers to Goth tried to express this passion for life amidst a world of death, but over time the message evolved into something different.
I was a jock on a state championship football team, and still had good goth friends. They're judge-y but not necessarily clique-y with less emphasis on a certain look. It's about being against the pop representation of vapid women and equally vapid bros, and the socially driven pressure to be like them. I find anyone can go to a goth-y hangout with a black T and dark jeans and do just fine. Just don't treat people as a spectacle.
You'll still find the "we don't like your kind 'round here" people, but they are in fact *******s. You run into *******s anywhere. Just don't deserve that kind of treatment.
I was a jock on a state championship football team, and still had good goth friends. They're judge-y but not necessarily clique-y with less emphasis on a certain look. It's about being against the pop representation of vapid women and equally vapid bros, and the socially driven pressure to be like them. I find anyone can go to a goth-y hangout with a black T and dark jeans and do just fine. Just don't treat people as a spectacle.
You'll still find the "we don't like your kind 'round here" people, but they are in fact *******s. You run into *******s anywhere. Just don't deserve that kind of treatment.
The HOW I'm pretty sure I've got down. I just need the WHERE, which was the point of this entire thread lol.
Check out different game stores in your area. Go to local band concerts. Find out if there are any bars/clubs in your area that cater to the alternative crowd.
man you guys are reading in to this WAY too much. Hes not looking to marry someone because of their makeup, he wants to sleep with some girls with a different style.
If you think goth girls are some enigma that dont follow the same principles that guide human nature then you live in a dream world. If hes a good looking guy and has the ability to be personable, he will have no difficulty finding women to sleep with, regardless of if they wear all black or not.
Anyways, go to metal shows. If anything you will actually have an easy in as you will CLEARLY look out of place so you already have topics of conversation to bring up.
Its absolutley objectification. He basically said he doesn't give a rats ass about the women, he just thinks the look is hot and wants to sleep with them. He is treating them like objects built for his personal pleasure. That is the definition of objectification.
This is ridiculous. I don't want to derail the thread, but I keep seeing people pretending to be defenders of inner beauty. I'm not advocating he should date a goth moron. We all have our beauty standards. If he feels attracted to goth, whatever! You will never approach ugly women unless they first prove that they're interesting. He's not treating them as objects for his personal pleasure. He's treating them as women who he may or may not feel attracted to!
Media pounds us so hard to accept gender equality that I think some men forget that they are men!
man you guys are reading in to this WAY too much. Hes not looking to marry someone because of their makeup, he wants to sleep with some girls with a different style.
Anyways, go to metal shows. If anything you will actually have an easy in as you will CLEARLY look out of place so you already have topics of conversation to bring up.
Also, don't try to blend in. Be different... it helps to have metalhead friends - but you don't want to be another one in the crowd.
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When I was in florida, two of the only people i could tolerate at all in the shop i had to play at were jocks. one was a football player and the other was a state-champion wrestler.
you get all types everywhere, even if it isn't necessarily common.
I'll be perfectly honest. I find it difficult to take threads such as these too seriously.
Actual jocks don't have to come out and say that they're jocks. Popular kids don't have to come out to say they're popular. Goths don't have to come out and say they're goths. Everyone just knows because they treat other people like how jocks treat people or they like things jocks like. The people who come out and announce they're jocks or popular or whatever are those who are insecure about themselves and need others to affirm their social status.
And let's not kid ourselves because ego-boosting is all this thread is. None of our advice is halfway relevant because you're not really what you say you are and, even if you were, cliques and circles are not as nearly as rigid as they are being treated in this thread. The only reason people are treating cliques as rigid is because you set up this "Hollywood high school cliques" mindset in the OP and that's probably all you know about being popular. Little known secret: "Hollywood popular" != "real life popular". Real life popular people have many "secondary connection" Joe Schmoe friends; otherwise, there wouldn't be anyone to prop them up or for them to walk over.
If you really want to sleep with a goth girl, the super obvious advice is to be nice to her and honestly try to get to know her. This may come as a shock to some; but, Goth girls are not an alien race. They're people like everyone else who just like to be treated well and be appreciated. They're not stuck in some "popularity" rat race and many Goth girls may even secretly romanticize of dating a jock because who honestly wouldn't want to date an attractive person?
Actual jocks don't have to come out and say that they're jocks. Popular kids don't have to come out to say they're popular. Goths don't have to come out and say they're goths. Everyone just knows because they treat other people like how jocks treat people or they like things jocks like. The people who come out and announce they're jocks or popular or whatever are those who are insecure about themselves and need others to affirm their social status.
Yeah, Rivaltuna does that from time to time. And everytime someone comes questioning his claims. I don't know him IRL. He may be trolling us, but whatever.
They're not stuck in some "popularity" rat race and many Goth girls may even secretly romanticizing of dating a jock because who honestly wouldn't want to date an attractive person?
This I agree. If a jock wants to date a goth girl, he should capitalize on this.
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YOU ARE SURPRISED BY A MANTICORE! IT QUICKLY SHREDS YOUR FLESH AND DEVOURS YOU!
Grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side. As a metal kid, I wanted to secretly bang the cheerleaders and was bored of the goth girls...
Many large cities have Goth/Industrial/Metal clubs which are the obvious places to start, or even just "normal" clubs that do a "Hard Music" night. Also, SF/Fantasy conventions seem to bring out a ton.
Honestly though, don't go looking for a "type" of person or you're just going to be disapointed. Personality rarely matches up with the cool looks, and in the end that stuff fades away as you get older.
One thing I've learned now that I'm in my 30's is that Cheerleaders and Goth girls are really not that far apart from each other... and in some cases, all that time in the mirror spent getting ready makes them feel more entitled to be picky about men. If they think you're using them as a novelty, they'll sniff you out a mile away.
I'll be perfectly honest. I find it difficult to take threads such as these too seriously.
Actual jocks don't have to come out and say that they're jocks. Popular kids don't have to come out to say they're popular. Goths don't have to come out and say they're goths. Everyone just knows because they treat other people like how jocks treat people or they like things jocks like. The people who come out and announce they're jocks or popular or whatever are those who are insecure about themselves and need others to affirm their social status.
And let's not kid ourselves because ego-boosting is all this thread is. None of our advice is halfway relevant because you're not really what you say you are and, even if you were, cliques and circles are not as nearly as rigid as they are being treated in this thread. The only reason people are treating cliques as rigid is because you set up this "Hollywood high school cliques" mindset in the OP and that's probably all you know about being popular. Little known secret: "Hollywood popular" != "real life popular". Real life popular people have many "secondary connection" Joe Schmoe friends; otherwise, there wouldn't be anyone to prop them up or for them to walk over.
If you really want to sleep with a goth girl, the super obvious advice is to be nice to her and honestly try to get to know her. This may come as a shock to some; but, Goth girls are not an alien race. They're people like everyone else who just like to be treated well and be appreciated. They're not stuck in some "popularity" rat race and many Goth girls may even secretly romanticize of dating a jock because who honestly wouldn't want to date an attractive person?
I would NEVER come to mtgs asking for HOW to get girls. I asked WHERE. It's *not my fault* that you missed that bus by a week and a half. I am reasonably successful with flirting/dating, and that's not something I've ever really felt I needed advice with.
also, "If you really want to sleep with a goth girl, the super obvious advice is to be nice to her and honestly try to get to know her."
Is terrible advice that only works in magicalchristmasland of real life where girls go for nice guys and don't like having to chase a man they feel is beyond them or uninterested.
This is ridiculous. I don't want to derail the thread, but I keep seeing people pretending to be defenders of inner beauty. I'm not advocating he should date a goth moron. We all have our beauty standards. If he feels attracted to goth, whatever! You will never approach ugly women unless they first prove that they're interesting. He's not treating them as objects for his personal pleasure. He's treating them as women who he may or may not feel attracted to!
Media pounds us so hard to accept gender equality that I think some men forget that they are men!
Dude... RivalTuna himself admitted that it was objectification.
I'm pretty sure I was right in stating that it was objectification.
RivalTuna is looking to find a woman so he can get laid. He has decided, this time, to shoot for a goth woman. He is, as a matter of fact, treating the woman as an object for his own personal pleasure. This is the definition of "objectification". I'm not defneding "inner beauty" or anything like that. I'm calling it like it is.
I'm in college right now, and I honestly haven't seen a goth anything since I got there. Maybe its because I don't live on campus, but school is the best place I can imagine finding them.
And to say being nice won't work... really? I've always been nice to my girlfriends and they were super happy about the way I treated them. How are we supposed to treat girls if we shouldn't treat them nice? I know I wouldn't be getting married soon if I were a jerk to my fiance. It's ok to have some fun with them, but at the end of the day I'm going to be nice to them. I was raised to be nice and polite to everyone, so I have a hard time seeing the benefits of being a jerk. Someone please enlighten me.
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Not playing much these days... hope all is well in the MtG community
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
And to say being nice won't work... really? I've always been nice to my girlfriends and they were super happy about the way I treated them. How are we supposed to treat girls if we shouldn't treat them nice? I know I wouldn't be getting married soon if I were a jerk to my fiance. It's ok to have some fun with them, but at the end of the day I'm going to be nice to them. I was raised to be nice and polite to everyone, so I have a hard time seeing the benefits of being a jerk. Someone please enlighten me.
The point is he's not looking for a girlfriend. He doesn't want someone who he can over time build a relationship with.
He wants a girl to have sex with, so he can get laid.
If what you are concerned with is getting laid by the hottest girl you can -- building a relationship is woefully inefficient.
And to say being nice won't work... really? I've always been nice to my girlfriends and they were super happy about the way I treated them. How are we supposed to treat girls if we shouldn't treat them nice? I know I wouldn't be getting married soon if I were a jerk to my fiance. It's ok to have some fun with them, but at the end of the day I'm going to be nice to them. I was raised to be nice and polite to everyone, so I have a hard time seeing the benefits of being a jerk. Someone please enlighten me.
The point isn't being NICE, per say. It's just that if you hand over everything to them they won't be interested, it's how girls work.
Since this thread is all about ego-boosting and quoting what we believe ourselves to be, I must chime in and proclaim:
[sarcasm]I'm a gangster.
I did three days hard time for unlawful entry; it must be true. [/sarcasm]
On topic; Hot Topic. Spencers. Underground shows, although, good luck figuring out where any are being outside of the 'scene'. Bigger, public concerts, although most are probably posers. Coffee houses, 24-hour establishments, electronic dance clubs, nightclubs...at the risk of sounding like a dick, your local nuthouse.
You could totally argue that I was objectifying here, I wouldn't disagree.
Actually, most of the goth girls that I've met in my life have been quite intelligent. I can't vouch for their emotional stability one way or another, but they seem to be quite less neurotic than the girls I dated in high school, which is a plus.
Honestly, this is why my original suggestion (before the art topics came up) was in regards to actually doing more than playing a role - if he's attracted to the culture he certainly should immerse himself in it completely.
But yes, there is of course the option of "faux-Goth" as well.
I'd tend to agree from what I've seen of them (including experience with my wife, who as stated earlier was sort of a "proto-Goth" in her younger days), Goths tend to start that way because they're damaged - but at the same time it tends to help with the mending process.
Almost everyone has some sort of damage/baggage - and part of being Goth to me seems to be externalizing all of it and shedding a large portion of it.
At least from an outside perspective where my only real direct input is the wife, who as I said was "Goth-ish" back in the late 80's before "Goth" was really a thing. Rest is just outside perspective stuff from an old guy.
But it's always better if you care for people of a culture, no matter the culture, to fully immerse yourself in said culture - be it with a foreigner, someone of a different faith, or a clique like Goths - even if the relationships end up temporary, it will make you a more interesting person for the future for when you do find someone to settle down with.
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
Don't have to remind me - I live near the largest F:M ratio college in the nation (Towson State University) - wife never lets me forget every time we drive past and my eye wanders for a second....
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
When I was in florida, two of the only people i could tolerate at all in the shop i had to play at were jocks. one was a football player and the other was a state-champion wrestler.
you get all types everywhere, even if it isn't necessarily common.
edit- I also would like to go on record stating that the reason i hated every magic player in florida was NOT because i was a jock and they weren't. It was because they were a bunch of douchebags. Now that i'm back in NJ, I'm playing with my original crowd again and couldn't be happier.
double edit- I'd also like to state that i AM teased more than i tease anyone else in the store. it's all in good fun, but everyone pretty much gangs up on me for being a jock. It's kind of hard not to when you see me sitting and calculating how many calories i've got left in a day, eating grilled chicken and salad pretty much constantly. aside from the fact that other than magic, we have nothing in common, me and EVERYONE at the shop i'm at get along very well
Early pre-cursers to Goth tried to express this passion for life amidst a world of death, but over time the message evolved into something different.
[Clan Flamingo]
I was a jock on a state championship football team, and still had good goth friends. They're judge-y but not necessarily clique-y with less emphasis on a certain look. It's about being against the pop representation of vapid women and equally vapid bros, and the socially driven pressure to be like them. I find anyone can go to a goth-y hangout with a black T and dark jeans and do just fine. Just don't treat people as a spectacle.
You'll still find the "we don't like your kind 'round here" people, but they are in fact *******s. You run into *******s anywhere. Just don't deserve that kind of treatment.
The HOW I'm pretty sure I've got down. I just need the WHERE, which was the point of this entire thread lol.
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If you think goth girls are some enigma that dont follow the same principles that guide human nature then you live in a dream world. If hes a good looking guy and has the ability to be personable, he will have no difficulty finding women to sleep with, regardless of if they wear all black or not.
Anyways, go to metal shows. If anything you will actually have an easy in as you will CLEARLY look out of place so you already have topics of conversation to bring up.
This is ridiculous. I don't want to derail the thread, but I keep seeing people pretending to be defenders of inner beauty. I'm not advocating he should date a goth moron. We all have our beauty standards. If he feels attracted to goth, whatever! You will never approach ugly women unless they first prove that they're interesting. He's not treating them as objects for his personal pleasure. He's treating them as women who he may or may not feel attracted to!
Media pounds us so hard to accept gender equality that I think some men forget that they are men!
Exactly!
Also, don't try to blend in. Be different... it helps to have metalhead friends - but you don't want to be another one in the crowd.
I'll be perfectly honest. I find it difficult to take threads such as these too seriously.
Actual jocks don't have to come out and say that they're jocks. Popular kids don't have to come out to say they're popular. Goths don't have to come out and say they're goths. Everyone just knows because they treat other people like how jocks treat people or they like things jocks like. The people who come out and announce they're jocks or popular or whatever are those who are insecure about themselves and need others to affirm their social status.
And let's not kid ourselves because ego-boosting is all this thread is. None of our advice is halfway relevant because you're not really what you say you are and, even if you were, cliques and circles are not as nearly as rigid as they are being treated in this thread. The only reason people are treating cliques as rigid is because you set up this "Hollywood high school cliques" mindset in the OP and that's probably all you know about being popular. Little known secret: "Hollywood popular" != "real life popular". Real life popular people have many "secondary connection" Joe Schmoe friends; otherwise, there wouldn't be anyone to prop them up or for them to walk over.
If you really want to sleep with a goth girl, the super obvious advice is to be nice to her and honestly try to get to know her. This may come as a shock to some; but, Goth girls are not an alien race. They're people like everyone else who just like to be treated well and be appreciated. They're not stuck in some "popularity" rat race and many Goth girls may even secretly romanticize of dating a jock because who honestly wouldn't want to date an attractive person?
Yeah, Rivaltuna does that from time to time. And everytime someone comes questioning his claims. I don't know him IRL. He may be trolling us, but whatever.
LOL, this is one piece of advice I would never give. Treat women nice and they'll take you for granted. Make them work for your attention.
This I agree. If a jock wants to date a goth girl, he should capitalize on this.
If a girl is not attracted to you and you try to make her work for your attention, guess what? She won't even know you exist!
Many large cities have Goth/Industrial/Metal clubs which are the obvious places to start, or even just "normal" clubs that do a "Hard Music" night. Also, SF/Fantasy conventions seem to bring out a ton.
Honestly though, don't go looking for a "type" of person or you're just going to be disapointed. Personality rarely matches up with the cool looks, and in the end that stuff fades away as you get older.
One thing I've learned now that I'm in my 30's is that Cheerleaders and Goth girls are really not that far apart from each other... and in some cases, all that time in the mirror spent getting ready makes them feel more entitled to be picky about men. If they think you're using them as a novelty, they'll sniff you out a mile away.
I would NEVER come to mtgs asking for HOW to get girls. I asked WHERE. It's *not my fault* that you missed that bus by a week and a half. I am reasonably successful with flirting/dating, and that's not something I've ever really felt I needed advice with.
also, "If you really want to sleep with a goth girl, the super obvious advice is to be nice to her and honestly try to get to know her."
Is terrible advice that only works in magicalchristmasland of real life where girls go for nice guys and don't like having to chase a man they feel is beyond them or uninterested.
So true.
*facepalm*
Dude... RivalTuna himself admitted that it was objectification.
I'm pretty sure I was right in stating that it was objectification.
RivalTuna is looking to find a woman so he can get laid. He has decided, this time, to shoot for a goth woman. He is, as a matter of fact, treating the woman as an object for his own personal pleasure. This is the definition of "objectification". I'm not defneding "inner beauty" or anything like that. I'm calling it like it is.
I'm in college right now, and I honestly haven't seen a goth anything since I got there. Maybe its because I don't live on campus, but school is the best place I can imagine finding them.
And to say being nice won't work... really? I've always been nice to my girlfriends and they were super happy about the way I treated them. How are we supposed to treat girls if we shouldn't treat them nice? I know I wouldn't be getting married soon if I were a jerk to my fiance. It's ok to have some fun with them, but at the end of the day I'm going to be nice to them. I was raised to be nice and polite to everyone, so I have a hard time seeing the benefits of being a jerk. Someone please enlighten me.
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
The point is he's not looking for a girlfriend. He doesn't want someone who he can over time build a relationship with.
He wants a girl to have sex with, so he can get laid.
If what you are concerned with is getting laid by the hottest girl you can -- building a relationship is woefully inefficient.
Alright NOW I'll step in. That's not true, I would happily take either one.
The point isn't being NICE, per say. It's just that if you hand over everything to them they won't be interested, it's how girls work.
Because we care about facts.
[sarcasm]I'm a gangster.
I did three days hard time for unlawful entry; it must be true. [/sarcasm]
On topic; Hot Topic. Spencers. Underground shows, although, good luck figuring out where any are being outside of the 'scene'. Bigger, public concerts, although most are probably posers. Coffee houses, 24-hour establishments, electronic dance clubs, nightclubs...at the risk of sounding like a dick, your local nuthouse.
▲
▲ ▲
LMFAO.
yes, that was dick. i approve.