So I was raised Mormon, but I stopped believing in the faith many years ago, around age 15. But, I still held on to all of the values. I guess you could say culturally I'm Mormon, but technically I'm atheist.
Ideally, I would date Mormon girls because culturally I identify with them. But in reality, Mormon girls seek out other Mormon guys to date, usually devout Mormon guys who served missions (I did not for obvious reasons).
But at the end of the day, I'm just looking for someone who shares the same values as me, which are:
-No premarital sex (This is a tough one in the post-modern world!)
-No drinking (I'm 21, so this one is hard, but not impossible to find)
-Obviously no drugs
-Doesn't like to party (the destructive kind of partying)
-Avoiding foul language (Not a deal breaker, but preferred)
-Strong emphasis on the family unit (as my church emphasizes)
Most people who meet the above criteria are Christians, but I'm sure there are atheists out there too who agree with the above. The reason I think the above values are more common among Christians is because they believe that's the best way to become more like Christ.
But let's face it, most Christian girls (Mormon girls even more so) would be highly cautious about dating an atheist which is my dilemma, because they don't understand that someone can be a Christian in values, but not technically believe in the divinity of Christ or an afterlife.
So I was raised Mormon, but I stopped believing in the faith many years ago, around age 15. But, I still held on to all of the values. I guess you could say culturally I'm Mormon, but technically I'm atheist.
Faith, specifically organized religion, IMHO, is a bag of bricks. Even if it influences you culturally, it's a dead weight if you're in the in-between; either carry your cross or stop carrying it.
But at the end of the day, I'm just looking for someone who shares the same values as me, which are:
-No premarital sex (This is a tough one in the post-modern world!)
-No drinking (I'm 21, so this one is hard, but not impossible to find)
-Obviously no drugs
-Doesn't like to party (the destructive kind of partying)
-Avoiding foul language (Not a deal breaker, but preferred)
-Strong emphasis on the family unit (as my church emphasizes)
Most people who meet the above criteria are Christians, but I'm sure there are atheists out there too who agree with the above.
Have you considered in becoming a little more flexible in your values or broadening your mind or 'search' for people? You did, after all, acknowledge that most people who meet your criteria are Christians; so then, what about the non-Christian minority who meet your criteria?
But let's face it, most Christian girls (Mormon girls even more so) would be highly cautious about dating an atheist which is my dilemma, because they don't understand that someone can be a Christian in values, but not technically believe in the divinity of Christ or an afterlife.
If you earnestly believe that you're reformed for no longer being Christian or Mormon, set it in stone that you won't look for a religious Christian then. Alternatively, there may be a cultural Mormon just like you!
I'm not sure what specific real-life advice you're looking for, but good luck.
-No premarital sex (This is a tough one in the post-modern world!)
-No drinking (I'm 21, so this one is hard, but not impossible to find)
-Obviously no drugs
-Doesn't like to party (the destructive kind of partying)
-Avoiding foul language (Not a deal breaker, but preferred)
-Strong emphasis on the family unit (as my church emphasizes)
Most people who meet the above criteria are Christians, but I'm sure there are atheists out there too who agree with the above.
There are more people out there than just Christians and Atheists. Many Asian Cultures (That's everything from Pakistan to Japan) share many of these values. Expand your horizons and you may find someone you like. My wife despaired of finding anyone non-Indian who shared her values for family in the US, until she met me. You can find people like that anywhere.
I'd also recommend online dating - I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. It's no longer a 'last refuge', but a convenient alternative to trolling bars and social events for people with other things to do in their lives.
But let's face it, most Christian girls (Mormon girls even more so) would be highly cautious about dating an atheist which is my dilemma, because they don't understand that someone can be a Christian in values, but not technically believe in the divinity of Christ or an afterlife.
Related Story: A friend once got a 'not going on a second date email' from a heavily conservative girl because he didn't share her love of Jesus Christ. According to him, the date went amazing and religion was never brought up once, but he must have said something about something (probably about politics, as she was a Republican Congressional Staffer) and she took it to mean he wasn't religious (he is). He didn't bother correcting her.
And don't count Christian girls out, either. You may only have experience with the blind faith stupid ones, but my friend's GF is a Jesus Freak while he's agnostic at best, and they're compatible in everything else. You may have to compromise when it comes to how to raise the kids, though, if it gets that far.
There are more people out there than just Christians and Atheists. Many Asian Cultures (That's everything from Pakistan to Japan) share many of these values. Expand your horizons and you may find someone you like. My wife despaired of finding anyone non-Indian who shared her values for family in the US, until she met me. You can find people like that anywhere.
True that many Asian cultures traditionally share these values, but also be aware that perfection may be unattainable and that compromises may have to be made for what is excellent or good.
Perhaps you'll find someone from an Asian culture, but then some other thing -- perhaps other culturally related issues -- crops up.
What seems to matter is simply the right, or perhaps best, thing at the right time.
Related Story: A friend once got a 'not going on a second date email' from a heavily conservative girl because he didn't share her love of Jesus Christ. According to him, the date went amazing and religion was never brought up once, but he must have said something about something (probably about politics, as she was a Republican Congressional Staffer) and she took it to mean he wasn't religious (he is). He didn't bother correcting her.
Lol, hope you're mate is all right now and wasn't too torn up by that!
Perhaps you'll find someone from an Asian culture, but then some other thing -- perhaps other culturally related issues -- crops up.
This is a good point. Hindus, Buddhists and Shintos are relatively laid back when it comes to religion, though. My wife didn't care about my faith (or lack thereof) because her brand of Hinduism just views other beliefs and religions as other means to the same end.
Lol, hope you're mate is all right now and wasn't too torn up by that!
Well, it had been his first date after a really, really bad break-up a year or two before (the day before a wedding we were all going to, as they lay in bed she said 'I think we should break-up', with no further explanation, and then she rolled over and closed her eyes... and then acted like a complete monster the next day to him, and wouldn't explain why). So he was really excited for it and had a great time, so it was another seemingly random blow. He's cool now, met a great Nigerian girl through online dating - one that actually goes to the gym he runs, no less.
This is a good point. Hindus, Buddhists and Shintos are relatively laid back when it comes to religion, though. My wife didn't care about my faith (or lack thereof) because her brand of Hinduism just views other beliefs and religions as other means to the same end.
I agree that some Hindus, Buddhists, and Shintoists that aren't too concerned about religion of their SO, but there are also some that are, and to no small extent.
More importantly, however, there are other significant differences in LebensphilosophieWeltanschauung. There may be differences in values other than those outlined by the OP, which may be important to either or both parties.
For example and briefly, my own extended family has an amount of bitterness due to differences in other philosophical and political outlooks. Then, there are the multiple little things that are actually quite important, on which there is considerable disagreement and from which there arises discordance. This all works against the whole idea of family, which, by the sound of things, is important to the OP [you?].
Simply, don't be too picky. There are more serious, deeper, and fundamental things (e.g., life direction, goals, fears) than the values outlined in the OP.
Relationships are hard enough. Sure, you only do have one life and you probably want only one mate and her to be the best one, but don't make relationships any harder on yourself than you need to.
Well, it had been his first date after a really, really bad break-up a year or two before (the day before a wedding we were all going to, as they lay in bed she said 'I think we should break-up', with no further explanation, and then she rolled over and closed her eyes... and then acted like a complete monster the next day to him, and wouldn't explain why). So he was really excited for it and had a great time, so it was another seemingly random blow. He's cool now, met a great Nigerian girl through online dating - one that actually goes to the gym he runs, no less.
Good to hear that!
Edit: Finances is a big issue in many relationships. Often and maybe sadly, it's as important as a potential mate's or your own character.
My experience isn't exactly like yours, but I think it's worth mentioning. I'm an atheist and I used to be a Fundamentalist Christian. I swear, and I used to drink, but I think my experience may still apply. I ended up marrying a Christian. I would have never guessed this would happen in a million years. I had the misconception that most Christians were pretty similar. It turns out that there is a huge variation in the followers of Christ. For example, my Episcopal Wife is a good fit for me. We are similar politically. We have similar twisted senses of humor. Overall we share many values. As far as religion goes, she is less extreme than the Christians I grew up with. She is cool with my atheism because she believes that Christianity isn't the only way to live. I just assumed that opinion didn't exist among Christians. My wife isn't exactly what your looking for. She swears like a sailor among other things, lol. Nevertheless, my point is that there has to be a culturally similar person out there that is cool with your atheism. As the last poster said, you could find this in other religions and cultures. You could also look for more liberal Christian denominations. I know there are many, but off the top of my head you should look at Episcopalian and Unitarian churches. My wife's Episcopalian church has had sermons that openly welcomed atheists to the church. It didn't even insist that we change. We could just exist there, which is nice. The church also lets Muslims hold prayer meetings there. Although you will still find people that swear and drink at churches like this, there are more culturally conservative people there as well. I'm sure you could find what your looking for as long as you don't give up. I'll admit though, you will have to look hard. Dating usually isn't easy for anyone though. Just try not to have a hundred other deal breakers, and I'm sure you can find what you want. Good luck!
Values change over time because people do. So its important to identify your deal breakers and be clear about them. As others have pointed out, dating outside your culture is a good option. Also, you could go on your own sort of "mission". Volunteer for a stint in the Peace Corps or AmeriCorps because its good for your resume and people who don't suck tend to do stuff like that.
This reminds me of my Arab atheist friend... who only wants to date Arab girls of Muslim background. But Arab Muslims tend not to want to date atheists.
So I was raised Mormon, but I stopped believing in the faith many years ago, around age 15. But, I still held on to all of the values. I guess you could say culturally I'm Mormon, but technically I'm atheist.
Ideally, I would date Mormon girls because culturally I identify with them. But in reality, Mormon girls seek out other Mormon guys to date, usually devout Mormon guys who served missions (I did not for obvious reasons).
Unless they're lax, lapsed or ex-Mormon, my impression is that Mormons date Mormons. Or she may insist on conversion (in your case, "returning").
Of course a lax Mormon is probably one that doesn't follow all the rules that you want them to anyway, so that's not going to work. You seem to want a devout Mormon, but I'm guessing a devout Mormon is going to insist on dating a believer even more.
But at the end of the day, I'm just looking for someone who shares the same values as me, which are:
You probably need to relax your standards a bit. You can probably get away with being strict on one or two of these, but if you don't want to be looking forever, you probably should relax some of them.
-No premarital sex (This is a tough one in the post-modern world!)
I would recommend against this. Sexual compatibility is important in a marriage. If you get married and find out you two have no sexual chemistry, would that upset you? What if it upsets her?
Would you stay together, sexually unfulfilled for the rest of your lives? Or would you get divorced? These sorts of issues have ended many a marriage, and plenty of people who have them and stay together aren't happy about it.
So why not avoid the hassle by making sure before you throw a big wedding and sign a bunch of legal contracts?
I'm not saying you should go out and have casual sex with dozens of girls or anything like that. You can take it slow. But there's nothing special about getting married and having horrible sex for the rest of your life because you thought it would be more romantic that way.
You know what's more romantic? Having good sex for the rest of your life.
-No drinking (I'm 21, so this one is hard, but not impossible to find)
Not even a glass of wine or a single beer sometimes?
It's really not that big of a deal. I understand not wanting to date someone who parties hard or is an alcoholic, but zero tolerance is just cutting your dating pool significantly for no real reason. There are plenty of people like me who enjoy a couple drinks every once in a while (like, once a month or so). I'm not really sure what you think is the moral failure of doing so.
Nobody's asking you to drink if you don't want to, but you rejected the Mormon religion. Why not consider that maybe people who drink aren't awful people?
-Obviously no drugs
Basically the same thing.
-Avoiding foul language (Not a deal breaker, but preferred)
Words are words. Just cuz you grew up saying "shut the front door" doesn't make you any better.
The reason I think the above values are more common among Christians is because they believe that's the best way to become more like Christ.
I am of the belief that if you are looking to meet someone, you go out there. I am all about going to a coffee shop in the morning to mingle, or a club at night to chit chat. You meet people by putting yourself out there. I am not a fan of the whole online dating thing, I am hands on and in your face when it comes to the whole dating thing. But honestly? branching out to an online medium is incredibly beneficial to people who are... a little more structured like yourself as well as people who have a hard time sparking a connection face to face.
If I were you, I would start there if you are looking for an individual with similar values that you want to spend large amounts of time with.
This reminds me of my Arab atheist friend... who only wants to date Arab girls of Muslim background. But Arab Muslims tend not to want to date atheists.
Unless they're lax, lapsed or ex-Mormon, my impression is that Mormons date Mormons. Or she may insist on conversion (in your case, "returning").
Of course a lax Mormon is probably one that doesn't follow all the rules that you want them to anyway, so that's not going to work. You seem to want a devout Mormon, but I'm guessing a devout Mormon is going to insist on dating a believer even more.
You probably need to relax your standards a bit. You can probably get away with being strict on one or two of these, but if you don't want to be looking forever, you probably should relax some of them.
I would recommend against this. Sexual compatibility is important in a marriage. If you get married and find out you two have no sexual chemistry, would that upset you? What if it upsets her?
Would you stay together, sexually unfulfilled for the rest of your lives? Or would you get divorced? These sorts of issues have ended many a marriage, and plenty of people who have them and stay together aren't happy about it.
So why not avoid the hassle by making sure before you throw a big wedding and sign a bunch of legal contracts?
I'm not saying you should go out and have casual sex with dozens of girls or anything like that. You can take it slow. But there's nothing special about getting married and having horrible sex for the rest of your life because you thought it would be more romantic that way.
You know what's more romantic? Having good sex for the rest of your life.
Not even a glass of wine or a single beer sometimes?
It's really not that big of a deal. I understand not wanting to date someone who parties hard or is an alcoholic, but zero tolerance is just cutting your dating pool significantly for no real reason. There are plenty of people like me who enjoy a couple drinks every once in a while (like, once a month or so). I'm not really sure what you think is the moral failure of doing so.
Nobody's asking you to drink if you don't want to, but you rejected the Mormon religion. Why not consider that maybe people who drink aren't awful people?
Basically the same thing.
Words are words. Just cuz you grew up saying "shut the front door" doesn't make you any better.
Of course, Christ drank wine with his dinner.
That's a really annoying straw man that I won't even bother to respond. At no point did I ever say that I was better than people who don't have my values. I simply want someone with my values, and there's no deeper meaning to it than that.
Nobody's asking you to drink if you don't want to, but you rejected the Mormon religion. Why not consider that maybe people who drink aren't awful people?
Did he ever actually write that people who drink are awful people?
What is it with people making baseless assumptions everywhere today?
Perhaps try an online dating site (Plenty of Fish, OKCupid, probably some other free ones out there), you might have a better time finding what you're looking for. Even if you just make a profile and list what you're looking for here, who knows, maybe someone looking for the same thing will stumble upon it.
That's a really annoying straw man that I won't even bother to respond. At no point did I ever say that I was better than people who don't have my values. I simply want someone with my values, and there's no deeper meaning to it than that.
Why are they your values if you don't think they're better?
You want someone who doesn't drink even though there's nothing better about that?
You want someone who doesn't swear even though there's nothing bad about swearing?
Did he ever actually write that people who drink are awful people?
What is it with people making baseless assumptions everywhere today?
I'm being hyperbolic... I know he didn't write that.
I just don't get why it would be important that someone not drink or not swear if you didn't think there was something seriously wrong with it.
What would be so bad about dating and/or marrying someone who is a light drinker? It's pretty hard to see why that would be a dealbreaker if there was not some judgment behind it.
I'm having a hard time understanding that thought process.
Why are they your values if you don't think they're better?
You want someone who doesn't drink even though there's nothing better about that?
You want someone who doesn't swear even though there's nothing bad about swearing?
Why are they dealbreakers in that case?
I'm being hyperbolic... I know he didn't write that.
I just don't get why it would be important that someone not drink or not swear if you didn't think there was something seriously wrong with it.
What would be so bad about dating and/or marrying someone who is a light drinker? It's pretty hard to see why that would be a dealbreaker if there was not some judgment behind it.
I'm having a hard time understanding that thought process.
People like to be around people who share similar values. If you don't understand this basic principle of human interaction then I'm at a loss of what else to tell you.
Why are they your values if you don't think they're better?
So all religious people think they are better than anyone that doesnt follow their religion? What is your definition of "better" here? I highly doubt that the OP looks down on social drinkers and non-virgins like a country club member looks down on a penny-less bum. (which is kind of the tone you took)
You want someone who doesn't drink even though there's nothing better about that?
You want someone who doesn't swear even though there's nothing bad about swearing?
Why are they dealbreakers in that case?
I'm being hyperbolic... I know he didn't write that.
I just don't get why it would be important that someone not drink or not swear if you didn't think there was something seriously wrong with it.
What would be so bad about dating and/or marrying someone who is a light drinker? It's pretty hard to see why that would be a dealbreaker if there was not some judgment behind it.
I'm having a hard time understanding that thought process.
I dont have an issue with people in general wanting to smoke weed but if my wife started smoking weed I'd have issue with it. It's one thing to not care about a friend doing something it's another to marry someone that does something you dont care for.
Illegal drugs are different because of the legal issues. But really, you can't handle someone liking something you don't?
I think the smell of crab legs cooking is awful, but I'm not going to say that eating crab legs every once in a while is a dealbreaker. It's not like I'm going to find out someone likes home cooked crab legs and say "****, this will never work."
People like to be around people who share similar values. If you don't understand this basic principle of human interaction then I'm at a loss of what else to tell you.
I understand wanting someone with shared interests.
But "someone who likes to do this thing that I don't want to do at ALL is a dealbreaker" is hardly something I would describe as merely being about shared interests.
If you prefer non-drinkers, fine. All other things equal, I'd prefer someone who doesn't have a love of crab, lobster and sushi since I don't like those things. It being a zero-tolerance dealbreaker is where I have a hard time believing there's no judgment there.
You're saying you don't attach a negative judgment to this. Which kinda makes it not really a moral value. I judge people for doing things I find immoral (not necessarily all that harshly, depending on what it is, but judge them I do). I don't judge people morally for having different tastes. But I also don't make people's different tastes a dealbreaker. (Obviously, at some point a lack of shared interests becomes a problem. But it's not a zero-tolerance issue.)
Can you explain to me why it's a DEALBREAKER on the basis of simply wanting shared values?
What if she was pretty much what you wanted in a woman, you got along well, she was attractive, she shared your view of the family, etc. but she likes a glass of wine a couple times a week?
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-No premarital sex (This is a tough one in the post-modern world!)
-No drinking (I'm 21, so this one is hard, but not impossible to find)
-Obviously no drugs
-Doesn't like to party (the destructive kind of partying)
-Avoiding foul language (Not a deal breaker, but preferred)
This, however:
-Strong emphasis on the family unit (as my church emphasizes)
I have no idea what it means. Is that a "Must be a stay at home mom"?
EDIT: Actually I know another (17 year old) that fits all those.
Illegal drugs are different because of the legal issues. But really, you can't handle someone liking something you don't?
I think the smell of crab legs cooking is awful, but I'm not going to say that eating crab legs every once in a while is a dealbreaker. It's not like I'm going to find out someone likes home cooked crab legs and say "****, this will never work."
I understand wanting someone with shared interests.
But "someone who likes to do this thing that I don't want to do at ALL is a dealbreaker" is hardly something I would describe as merely being about shared interests.
If you prefer non-drinkers, fine. All other things equal, I'd prefer someone who doesn't have a love of crab, lobster and sushi since I don't like those things. It being a zero-tolerance dealbreaker is where I have a hard time believing there's no judgment there.
You're saying you don't attach a negative judgment to this. Which kinda makes it not really a moral value. I judge people for doing things I find immoral (not necessarily all that harshly, depending on what it is, but judge them I do). I don't judge people morally for having different tastes. But I also don't make people's different tastes a dealbreaker. (Obviously, at some point a lack of shared interests becomes a problem. But it's not a zero-tolerance issue.)
Can you explain to me why it's a DEALBREAKER on the basis of simply wanting shared values?
What if she was pretty much what you wanted in a woman, you got along well, she was attractive, she shared your view of the family, etc. but she likes a glass of wine a couple times a week?
I don't believe in recreational drug use and I would not date someone who does use drugs (ethanol) recreationally. That is not to say I would not be friends with people who recreationally drink. In fact, pretty much all of my friends drink.
If you don't see anything wrong with someone who drinks a couple times a week, then you date her. I don't have to because it is not what I am looking for in a companion.
I'm not sure why this is a hard concept for you to grasp.
I know a girl that is 21 who would have satisfied all these:
This, however:
-Strong emphasis on the family unit (as my church emphasizes)
I have no idea what it means. Is that a "Must be a stay at home mom"?
EDIT: Actually I know another (17 year old) that fits all those.
I know they are out there, I just have to put myself out there to find them.
strong emphasis on the family unit just means she would be into spending time with her family, being close to the kids, being a big part of their lives, spending quality time together as a family, that sort of thing.
Illegal drugs are different because of the legal issues. But really, you can't handle someone liking something you don't?
Alcohol is still mind altering and because of that some people view it no differently than drugs.
If the legal part is the hangup for you though... Smoking regular cigarettes is another good parallel. A lot of non-smokers would never dream of seriously dating a smoker... take one for a roll in the hay maybe but not get into a long term deal with one because of the health issues, smell, money, ash tray mouth...
I really dont understand why you are so passionate about this. Many guys have much worse deal breakers than "drinking". Some guys only want to date girls that look like models, or blondes, or short girls... Those all seem a lot more trivial to me than drinking or not.
Here's a less charged example- cats people and dog people.
People who are really into other camps can't marry or live with one another.
[I]Except that having a cat or dog in your house is a much larger imposition on your life.[/I] If I dislike cats and you want me to live with a cat, that's actually a MUCH bigger problem than if you want to have a beer or a glass of wine with dinner every once in a while. Because even if I don't like alcohol, you having a drink now and then doesn't really make a difference.
Also, if you make it more extreme ("really into one camp") obviously it will be more of a problem.
This is more equivalent to "I won't date someone who likes cats, even if they don't want to own one and just sometimes pet them. No judgment though."
I don't believe in recreational drug use and I would not date someone who does use drugs (ethanol) recreationally. That is not to say I would not be friends with people who recreationally drink. In fact, pretty much all of my friends drink.
I didn't say you wouldn't be friends with them.
All I said is that you'd be better off with less stringent criteria and being less judgmental (i.e. less zero-tolerance).
And you're all offended that I called you judgmental for having zero-tolerance for things that really don't matter and don't impose on your life.
You want to say that someone who drinks is not worth dating and you "don't believe in" drinking alcohol (whatever that means)... BUT you don't judge people who drink?
I just see those as incompatible statements. You must have some negative judgment on drinking, otherwise it wouldn't automatically disqualify someone if they do it to any extent.
You can just cop to it. You judge people who drink. And that's your choice, but don't get all offended that I call it what it is.
If you don't see anything wrong with someone who drinks a couple times a week, then you date her. I don't have to because it is not what I am looking for in a companion.
I never said you [i]had[/i] to do anything.
And what do you mean "if [I] don't see anything wrong with someone who drinks a couple times a week"?
I thought your whole thing about being offended at what I said is that you don't see anything wrong with someone who has a couple drinks a week and you were offended that I suggested you were judging people.
Are you now suggesting that there IS something wrong with someone who has a couple drinks a week?
I'm not sure why this is a hard concept for you to grasp.
It's not. I understand that you think there's something wrong with ever drinking alcohol and therefore don't want to date anyone who does it.
I don't see why it's a hard concept for you to grasp that I can think your criteria are judgmental without that meaning that I'm ordering you to do anything.
Feel free not to take my advice, you have every right, but don't get all offended that I call your dating standards what they are.
I really dont understand why you are so passionate about this. Many guys have much worse deal breakers than "drinking". Some guys only want to date girls that look like models, or blondes, or short girls... Those all seem a lot more trivial to me than drinking or not.
I don't think it's the biggest deal. That doesn't mean it's not judgmental.
And he got all *****y at me for saying so. Just saying "shared values" over and over doesn't mean you're not being judgmental.
Sure, he's free to date whoever he want and break up with someone because they went on five dates and on the fifth one she ordered a glass of wine. He can do that. And no, it's not as bad as many other things. But I'm still free to point out that it's judgmental and he's making his dating pool very small over something mostly irrelevant if it's done in moderation. And if you want to jump down my throat over that, I will defend my position.
Except that having a cat or dog in your house is a much larger imposition on your life. If I dislike cats and you want me to live with a cat, that's actually a MUCH bigger problem than if you want to have a beer or a glass of wine with dinner every once in a while. Because even if I don't like alcohol, you having a drink now and then doesn't really make a difference.
Ya, see, this is just your opinion. The fact that you think someone having pets is a bigger deal than someone having a drink every once in a while (did you notice how you changed jdintale's phrase of absolutely no drinking to one that suits your purpose and needs for this discussion?), is your opinion; one that I do not share.
Some people don't want to live the rest of their lives with dog people. Some people do not want to live the rest of their lives with people who drink. There's nothing beyond this.
You're making a big fuss here only because you don't like jdinatale's preferences. Do you realize how absurd that is?
Ya, see, this is just your opinion. The fact that you think someone having pets is a bigger deal than someone having a drink every once in a while
I don't think it's necessarily a bigger deal. It depends on what my feelings are on cats vs. drinking.
But if I hate cats, and you want me to live with a cat, yes it is a bigger deal than if I don't like to drink and you want to drink occasionally.
How is it not? In one I will be expected to deal with the cat. Even if it's your primary responsibility, it will still interact with me. It might pee on the floor or scratch up the furniture. I will have to feed it or clean it's litter box occasionally (maybe you're out of town, or can't do so for some reason). If it gets sick, accommodations will have to be made, vet bills, it may vomit on the floor, etc. If we want to travel, we have to make arrangements for the cat.
Under what circumstances could this be conceived of as less of an imposition than my partner having a drink every once in a while?
Note: I didn't say getting drunk or having drinking parties or anything like that.
(did you notice how you changed jdintale's phrase of absolutely no drinking to one that suits your purpose and needs for this discussion?)
What did I change it to?
I'm reacting to him saying "absolutely no drinking" because that's precisely what I find overly stringent and judgmental about his standard.
Or are you talking about the cat comparison? There is no "having a cat every once in a while", cat ownership is a commitment. So obviously the analogy won't work as well. That's not my problem, you came up with the comparison.
is your opinion; one that I do not share.
You're free to think so, but other than someone drinking in moderation somehow exerting some kind of awful psychological toll on you, I think it's pretty hard to see it as more of an imposition than an unwanted and labor intensive pet.
Some people don't want to live the rest of their lives with dog people. Some people do not want to live the rest of their lives with people who drink. There's nothing beyond this.
Yeah... and? I never said he wasn't free to do that. But I am also free to think his standards are judgmental. In fact, if he were actually Mormon, he would feel totally free to say so. It's against their religion, because it's immoral. For some reason he is reluctant to just say that he still agrees with that.
If I don't want to live with a dog person, I have a reason. It's that I do not like dogs. Therefore I do not want to have to deal with a dog in my house, which is a significant imposition on my life (even more than owning a cat, which I explained above).
If I don't want to live with someone who drinks (at all), I have a reason. And it's NOT because having a glass of wine or a beer every once in a while is going to give me extra work, affect my ability to travel, ruin my carpet or furniture (anymore than any other beverage might), etc. It has to be something else, like that I think there's something wrong with someone who does that. If I thought it wasn't a negative thing about someone, why would I care? Someone drinking in moderation does not impose on my life.
You're making a big fuss here only because you don't like jdinatale's preferences. Do you realize how absurd that is?
I already explained why I'm arguing.
I don't think I need to force jdinatale to do anything. But him whining that I'm an ******* for calling it like it is, I will respond to.
If you ask for advice about how you can't meet girls who meet your stringent standards, be prepared to hear that maybe it's your standards that are the problem.
Ideally, I would date Mormon girls because culturally I identify with them. But in reality, Mormon girls seek out other Mormon guys to date, usually devout Mormon guys who served missions (I did not for obvious reasons).
But at the end of the day, I'm just looking for someone who shares the same values as me, which are:
-No premarital sex (This is a tough one in the post-modern world!)
-No drinking (I'm 21, so this one is hard, but not impossible to find)
-Obviously no drugs
-Doesn't like to party (the destructive kind of partying)
-Avoiding foul language (Not a deal breaker, but preferred)
-Strong emphasis on the family unit (as my church emphasizes)
Most people who meet the above criteria are Christians, but I'm sure there are atheists out there too who agree with the above. The reason I think the above values are more common among Christians is because they believe that's the best way to become more like Christ.
But let's face it, most Christian girls (Mormon girls even more so) would be highly cautious about dating an atheist which is my dilemma, because they don't understand that someone can be a Christian in values, but not technically believe in the divinity of Christ or an afterlife.
Have you considered in becoming a little more flexible in your values or broadening your mind or 'search' for people? You did, after all, acknowledge that most people who meet your criteria are Christians; so then, what about the non-Christian minority who meet your criteria?
If you earnestly believe that you're reformed for no longer being Christian or Mormon, set it in stone that you won't look for a religious Christian then. Alternatively, there may be a cultural Mormon just like you!
I'm not sure what specific real-life advice you're looking for, but good luck.
There are more people out there than just Christians and Atheists. Many Asian Cultures (That's everything from Pakistan to Japan) share many of these values. Expand your horizons and you may find someone you like. My wife despaired of finding anyone non-Indian who shared her values for family in the US, until she met me. You can find people like that anywhere.
I'd also recommend online dating - I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. It's no longer a 'last refuge', but a convenient alternative to trolling bars and social events for people with other things to do in their lives.
Related Story: A friend once got a 'not going on a second date email' from a heavily conservative girl because he didn't share her love of Jesus Christ. According to him, the date went amazing and religion was never brought up once, but he must have said something about something (probably about politics, as she was a Republican Congressional Staffer) and she took it to mean he wasn't religious (he is). He didn't bother correcting her.
And don't count Christian girls out, either. You may only have experience with the blind faith stupid ones, but my friend's GF is a Jesus Freak while he's agnostic at best, and they're compatible in everything else. You may have to compromise when it comes to how to raise the kids, though, if it gets that far.
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Perhaps you'll find someone from an Asian culture, but then some other thing -- perhaps other culturally related issues -- crops up.
What seems to matter is simply the right, or perhaps best, thing at the right time.
Lol, hope you're mate is all right now and wasn't too torn up by that!
This is a good point. Hindus, Buddhists and Shintos are relatively laid back when it comes to religion, though. My wife didn't care about my faith (or lack thereof) because her brand of Hinduism just views other beliefs and religions as other means to the same end.
Well, it had been his first date after a really, really bad break-up a year or two before (the day before a wedding we were all going to, as they lay in bed she said 'I think we should break-up', with no further explanation, and then she rolled over and closed her eyes... and then acted like a complete monster the next day to him, and wouldn't explain why). So he was really excited for it and had a great time, so it was another seemingly random blow. He's cool now, met a great Nigerian girl through online dating - one that actually goes to the gym he runs, no less.
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More importantly, however, there are other significant differences in
LebensphilosophieWeltanschauung. There may be differences in values other than those outlined by the OP, which may be important to either or both parties.For example and briefly, my own extended family has an amount of bitterness due to differences in other philosophical and political outlooks. Then, there are the multiple little things that are actually quite important, on which there is considerable disagreement and from which there arises discordance. This all works against the whole idea of family, which, by the sound of things, is important to the OP [you?].
Simply, don't be too picky. There are more serious, deeper, and fundamental things (e.g., life direction, goals, fears) than the values outlined in the OP.
Relationships are hard enough. Sure, you only do have one life and you probably want only one mate and her to be the best one, but don't make relationships any harder on yourself than you need to.
Good to hear that!
Edit: Finances is a big issue in many relationships. Often and maybe sadly, it's as important as a potential mate's or your own character.
Unless they're lax, lapsed or ex-Mormon, my impression is that Mormons date Mormons. Or she may insist on conversion (in your case, "returning").
Of course a lax Mormon is probably one that doesn't follow all the rules that you want them to anyway, so that's not going to work. You seem to want a devout Mormon, but I'm guessing a devout Mormon is going to insist on dating a believer even more.
You probably need to relax your standards a bit. You can probably get away with being strict on one or two of these, but if you don't want to be looking forever, you probably should relax some of them.
I would recommend against this. Sexual compatibility is important in a marriage. If you get married and find out you two have no sexual chemistry, would that upset you? What if it upsets her?
Would you stay together, sexually unfulfilled for the rest of your lives? Or would you get divorced? These sorts of issues have ended many a marriage, and plenty of people who have them and stay together aren't happy about it.
So why not avoid the hassle by making sure before you throw a big wedding and sign a bunch of legal contracts?
I'm not saying you should go out and have casual sex with dozens of girls or anything like that. You can take it slow. But there's nothing special about getting married and having horrible sex for the rest of your life because you thought it would be more romantic that way.
You know what's more romantic? Having good sex for the rest of your life.
Not even a glass of wine or a single beer sometimes?
It's really not that big of a deal. I understand not wanting to date someone who parties hard or is an alcoholic, but zero tolerance is just cutting your dating pool significantly for no real reason. There are plenty of people like me who enjoy a couple drinks every once in a while (like, once a month or so). I'm not really sure what you think is the moral failure of doing so.
Nobody's asking you to drink if you don't want to, but you rejected the Mormon religion. Why not consider that maybe people who drink aren't awful people?
Basically the same thing.
Words are words. Just cuz you grew up saying "shut the front door" doesn't make you any better.
Of course, Christ drank wine with his dinner.
If I were you, I would start there if you are looking for an individual with similar values that you want to spend large amounts of time with.
That's a really annoying straw man that I won't even bother to respond. At no point did I ever say that I was better than people who don't have my values. I simply want someone with my values, and there's no deeper meaning to it than that.
Did he ever actually write that people who drink are awful people?
What is it with people making baseless assumptions everywhere today?
You want someone who doesn't drink even though there's nothing better about that?
You want someone who doesn't swear even though there's nothing bad about swearing?
Why are they dealbreakers in that case?
I'm being hyperbolic... I know he didn't write that.
I just don't get why it would be important that someone not drink or not swear if you didn't think there was something seriously wrong with it.
What would be so bad about dating and/or marrying someone who is a light drinker? It's pretty hard to see why that would be a dealbreaker if there was not some judgment behind it.
I'm having a hard time understanding that thought process.
People like to be around people who share similar values. If you don't understand this basic principle of human interaction then I'm at a loss of what else to tell you.
So all religious people think they are better than anyone that doesnt follow their religion? What is your definition of "better" here? I highly doubt that the OP looks down on social drinkers and non-virgins like a country club member looks down on a penny-less bum. (which is kind of the tone you took)
I dont have an issue with people in general wanting to smoke weed but if my wife started smoking weed I'd have issue with it. It's one thing to not care about a friend doing something it's another to marry someone that does something you dont care for.
I think the smell of crab legs cooking is awful, but I'm not going to say that eating crab legs every once in a while is a dealbreaker. It's not like I'm going to find out someone likes home cooked crab legs and say "****, this will never work."
I understand wanting someone with shared interests.
But "someone who likes to do this thing that I don't want to do at ALL is a dealbreaker" is hardly something I would describe as merely being about shared interests.
If you prefer non-drinkers, fine. All other things equal, I'd prefer someone who doesn't have a love of crab, lobster and sushi since I don't like those things. It being a zero-tolerance dealbreaker is where I have a hard time believing there's no judgment there.
You're saying you don't attach a negative judgment to this. Which kinda makes it not really a moral value. I judge people for doing things I find immoral (not necessarily all that harshly, depending on what it is, but judge them I do). I don't judge people morally for having different tastes. But I also don't make people's different tastes a dealbreaker. (Obviously, at some point a lack of shared interests becomes a problem. But it's not a zero-tolerance issue.)
Can you explain to me why it's a DEALBREAKER on the basis of simply wanting shared values?
What if she was pretty much what you wanted in a woman, you got along well, she was attractive, she shared your view of the family, etc. but she likes a glass of wine a couple times a week?
Because you may be living with him/her for the rest of your life.
Here's a less charged example- cats people and dog people.
People who are really into other camps can't marry or live with one another.
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This, however:
-Strong emphasis on the family unit (as my church emphasizes)
I have no idea what it means. Is that a "Must be a stay at home mom"?
EDIT: Actually I know another (17 year old) that fits all those.
I don't believe in recreational drug use and I would not date someone who does use drugs (ethanol) recreationally. That is not to say I would not be friends with people who recreationally drink. In fact, pretty much all of my friends drink.
If you don't see anything wrong with someone who drinks a couple times a week, then you date her. I don't have to because it is not what I am looking for in a companion.
I'm not sure why this is a hard concept for you to grasp.
I know they are out there, I just have to put myself out there to find them.
strong emphasis on the family unit just means she would be into spending time with her family, being close to the kids, being a big part of their lives, spending quality time together as a family, that sort of thing.
Alcohol is still mind altering and because of that some people view it no differently than drugs.
If the legal part is the hangup for you though... Smoking regular cigarettes is another good parallel. A lot of non-smokers would never dream of seriously dating a smoker... take one for a roll in the hay maybe but not get into a long term deal with one because of the health issues, smell, money, ash tray mouth...
I really dont understand why you are so passionate about this. Many guys have much worse deal breakers than "drinking". Some guys only want to date girls that look like models, or blondes, or short girls... Those all seem a lot more trivial to me than drinking or not.
Also, if you make it more extreme ("really into one camp") obviously it will be more of a problem.
This is more equivalent to "I won't date someone who likes cats, even if they don't want to own one and just sometimes pet them. No judgment though."
(Assuming no cat allergies.)
I didn't say you wouldn't be friends with them.
All I said is that you'd be better off with less stringent criteria and being less judgmental (i.e. less zero-tolerance).
And you're all offended that I called you judgmental for having zero-tolerance for things that really don't matter and don't impose on your life.
You want to say that someone who drinks is not worth dating and you "don't believe in" drinking alcohol (whatever that means)... BUT you don't judge people who drink?
I just see those as incompatible statements. You must have some negative judgment on drinking, otherwise it wouldn't automatically disqualify someone if they do it to any extent.
You can just cop to it. You judge people who drink. And that's your choice, but don't get all offended that I call it what it is.
I never said you [i]had[/i] to do anything.
And what do you mean "if [I] don't see anything wrong with someone who drinks a couple times a week"?
I thought your whole thing about being offended at what I said is that you don't see anything wrong with someone who has a couple drinks a week and you were offended that I suggested you were judging people.
Are you now suggesting that there IS something wrong with someone who has a couple drinks a week?
It's not. I understand that you think there's something wrong with ever drinking alcohol and therefore don't want to date anyone who does it.
I don't see why it's a hard concept for you to grasp that I can think your criteria are judgmental without that meaning that I'm ordering you to do anything.
Feel free not to take my advice, you have every right, but don't get all offended that I call your dating standards what they are.
I don't think it's the biggest deal. That doesn't mean it's not judgmental.
And he got all *****y at me for saying so. Just saying "shared values" over and over doesn't mean you're not being judgmental.
Sure, he's free to date whoever he want and break up with someone because they went on five dates and on the fifth one she ordered a glass of wine. He can do that. And no, it's not as bad as many other things. But I'm still free to point out that it's judgmental and he's making his dating pool very small over something mostly irrelevant if it's done in moderation. And if you want to jump down my throat over that, I will defend my position.
Ya, see, this is just your opinion. The fact that you think someone having pets is a bigger deal than someone having a drink every once in a while (did you notice how you changed jdintale's phrase of absolutely no drinking to one that suits your purpose and needs for this discussion?), is your opinion; one that I do not share.
Some people don't want to live the rest of their lives with dog people. Some people do not want to live the rest of their lives with people who drink. There's nothing beyond this.
You're making a big fuss here only because you don't like jdinatale's preferences. Do you realize how absurd that is?
But if I hate cats, and you want me to live with a cat, yes it is a bigger deal than if I don't like to drink and you want to drink occasionally.
How is it not? In one I will be expected to deal with the cat. Even if it's your primary responsibility, it will still interact with me. It might pee on the floor or scratch up the furniture. I will have to feed it or clean it's litter box occasionally (maybe you're out of town, or can't do so for some reason). If it gets sick, accommodations will have to be made, vet bills, it may vomit on the floor, etc. If we want to travel, we have to make arrangements for the cat.
Under what circumstances could this be conceived of as less of an imposition than my partner having a drink every once in a while?
Note: I didn't say getting drunk or having drinking parties or anything like that.
What did I change it to?
I'm reacting to him saying "absolutely no drinking" because that's precisely what I find overly stringent and judgmental about his standard.
Or are you talking about the cat comparison? There is no "having a cat every once in a while", cat ownership is a commitment. So obviously the analogy won't work as well. That's not my problem, you came up with the comparison.
You're free to think so, but other than someone drinking in moderation somehow exerting some kind of awful psychological toll on you, I think it's pretty hard to see it as more of an imposition than an unwanted and labor intensive pet.
Yeah... and? I never said he wasn't free to do that. But I am also free to think his standards are judgmental. In fact, if he were actually Mormon, he would feel totally free to say so. It's against their religion, because it's immoral. For some reason he is reluctant to just say that he still agrees with that.
If I don't want to live with a dog person, I have a reason. It's that I do not like dogs. Therefore I do not want to have to deal with a dog in my house, which is a significant imposition on my life (even more than owning a cat, which I explained above).
If I don't want to live with someone who drinks (at all), I have a reason. And it's NOT because having a glass of wine or a beer every once in a while is going to give me extra work, affect my ability to travel, ruin my carpet or furniture (anymore than any other beverage might), etc. It has to be something else, like that I think there's something wrong with someone who does that. If I thought it wasn't a negative thing about someone, why would I care? Someone drinking in moderation does not impose on my life.
I already explained why I'm arguing.
I don't think I need to force jdinatale to do anything. But him whining that I'm an ******* for calling it like it is, I will respond to.
If you ask for advice about how you can't meet girls who meet your stringent standards, be prepared to hear that maybe it's your standards that are the problem.