Becoming a parent, like becoming a husband, is a commitment to invest in a relationship with another human being. People who do so report higher meaning in their lives. So I would suggest that adding children adds meaning; studies document this phenomenon.
However, if your point instead was that kids are not the only path to a meaningful life, then I would agree.
People can say that, but it varies according to the insividual. Not everyone believes that having children will add meaning to their lives, such a myself. As far as people reporting that, I doubt anyone would say otherwise since saying such a thing while having kids is not very acceptable.
Personally I think the whole get married and having kids is overrated, but that's just me.
I just became a parent in May, father to a girl. I had a lot of concerns going into it. Additional insurance costs, the hospital cost itself, the possible medical complications...
Nothing outweighs when I hold her and she smiles at me.
I just became a parent in May, father to a girl. I had a lot of concerns going into it. Additional insurance costs, the hospital cost itself, the possible medical complications...
Nothing outweighs when I hold her and she smiles at me.
Perhaps to you, yes. That is how you feel about it.
You are correct, that is my opinion and why I gave it as such; if you would like me to qualify it:
Errata text: Nothing outweighs to me and only me when I hold her and she smiles at me.
Semantics aside, I believe it could be expected that I was talking about my own personal experience, not yours or anyone elses, that I am relaying to OP for their consideration as to my personal experience, and reward thereof.
Disclaimer: Void where prohibited, not admissible in AK and HI, your mileage may vary, opinions may be closer than they appear.
You are correct, that is my opinion and why I gave it as such; if you would like me to qualify it:
Errata text: Nothing outweighs to me and only me when I hold her and she smiles at me.
Semantics aside, I believe it could be expected that I was talking about my own personal experience, not yours or anyone elses, that I am relaying to OP for their consideration as to my personal experience, and reward thereof.
Disclaimer: Void where prohibited, not admissible in AK and HI, your mileage may vary, opinions may be closer than they appear.
I know, but the previous post sounded preachy, like an absolute truth that is why you should (or must) have kids. That's all.
That aside, to each their own. It does not matter to me which way the OP goes, just as long as his decision is made carefully.
I understand the disbelief that some people have about how amazing having kids is.
I'll try to explain. Its like before puberty you weren't interested in sex or girls. In fact you thought girls had the "cooties" and wrote signs like "No Girls Allowed" on your secret hideout.
After you hit puberty you discover girls. A whole new world opens up. You start looking at them, you start to feel awkward and shy because you find yourself liking some of them. You learn about sex, you learn about love, you learn about life.
Now just try to imagine trying to convince a 7 year old that grow tired of his toys, and he will start liking girls, and that he'll give up those toys and that his life will be incredibly fulfilling and he will discover a whole new world he had never known.
That 7 year old will tell you, "you're crazy, I'll never like girls"
I understand the disbelief that some people have about how amazing having kids is.
I'll try to explain. Its like before puberty you weren't interested in sex or girls. In fact you thought girls had the "cooties" and wrote signs like "No Girls Allowed" on your secret hideout.
After you hit puberty you discover girls. A whole new world opens up. You start looking at them, you start to feel awkward and shy because you find yourself liking some of them. You learn about sex, you learn about love, you learn about life.
Now just try to imagine trying to convince a 7 year old that grow tired of his toys, and he will start liking girls, and that he'll give up those toys and that his life will be incredibly fulfilling and he will discover a whole new world he had never known.
That 7 year old will tell you, "you're crazy, I'll never like girls"
Thing is I never did have an interest in sex or guys, and once I discovered them I still never had an interest in them. Sex once discovered was not nearly as good as people made it out to be, and the guys only served as physical satisfaction, no lingering emotion after.
My story aside everyone is just different and you cannot accurately explain it in way that others can understand. As a kid you just sort of went with the flow a bit, as an adult you have an idea of what you want and where you're going.
I would agree in almost every scenario, except that he is married, so it's a decision his wife has to live with, too.
The only mitigating factor was their decision before marriage was different.
It's interesting because there isn't really a compromise here, no matter who eventually gets their way, the other is not. And it's a big issue that will have serious effects on their marriage, not some small issue that not being able to compromise on isn't going to jeopardize the relationship. In this case, I think they both need to be honest about what it is they want and really evaluate how badly they want to stick to their guns, because having children and never having children is a major fork in the road for a relationship.
Also, all the lines about "I don't want a kids because I would resent it " or "I don't want a kid because I wouldn't be a good dad" are similarly BS. Having a kid changes you in a way no other experience in your life does. You are a different person when you have a child. Making grand proclamations about what you will be like after your kid is born is ridiculous. It's like kids in grade school trying to describe what they will be like in their 40's. You don't have the same perspective after having kids.
We've had this conversation before. Some people just don't want to change into the person they'd be with kids. The person they are now does not want to make the necessary changes and sacrifices and they'd view doing so to be a negative thing. Even if Baby Stockholm Syndrome kicks in and changes their perspective once they have kids, that doesn't invalidate their current desire to not undergo that change.
Saying "you just don't know!" is fine and probably true, but it's not at all a compelling argument to the people you're speaking to. We don't value things the way you do, and it's an incredibly huge risk to test the waters and see if you're right.
Being selfish sounds great when you are in your 20's. It sucks when you are in your 60's and alone. It sucks even more lying on your death bed at 80 sick and alone.
Having children isn't the only way to not be alone. You're being ridiculous.
Living the life you want to live never sucks. If I've accomplished many of my goals before I'm a senior, even if alone I likely wouldn't have regrets because I know that I got out of life what I wanted.
Being selfish and self centered is a false bill of goods. You are getting the worse end of lifes bargain.
That's one perspective. it's common and quite insulting, but it's only one perspective.
I feel that as long as a person is finding fulfillment from their life, they're doing just fine.
Not to mention, like it or not, most people do have kids.
Peer pressure and herd mentality is not a compelling reason to procreate.
Which means as they get older your friends ans acquaintances will most likely start families. And guess who parents have pretty much no time or care for? Single, childless people. When they have a family they will be spending time with other families. Not you. That trip out to the movies will turn into a playdate for thier kids, hey won't be able to make the game because they are off to a birthday party, sorry, can't hang out tonight, it's the dance recital. They will have moved on, and you will be left behind, to old for the childless 20 somehting crowd, but to immature/nothing in common with people your age.
Or you can do what I did as my friends started having children: you find new friends.
I don't begrudge my old friends for it, they're living their lives the way they want and they find value in it. We just grew apart. But luckily, there are always other people you can find similar interests with. So I'm okay with my parent friends and I drifting apart, i wasn't left behind at all. It's not like being childless stagnates your life, I'm not sure why you seem to think it does. Maybe you just want to think you left your childless friends behind to a lonely, terrible life - but you probably didn't at all.
That's just a bunch of fear mongering bull. Lots of people with very modest incomes have multiple kids just fine. You in no way need to be rich to have kids. The whole "you need to be rich to have kids" is a completely ridiculous assertion. You CAN spend a zillion dollars on kids, but you in no way need to.
Rich? No, probably not. But you absolutely do need to be aware of the significant financial burden children are because that cost is only increasing as time goes on. And I think you're overestimating how 'just fine' parents get by on shoestring incomes.
Thing is I never did have an interest in sex or guys, and once I discovered them I still never had an interest in them. Sex once discovered was not nearly as good as people made it out to be, and the guys only served as physical satisfaction, no lingering emotion after.
Hey Lone Revenant, it looks like you are saying that you haven't formed an emotional bond with a partner before. Do you bond with other people - family, friends, coworkers, ... MTGS forum members?
Hey Lone Revenant, it looks like you are saying that you haven't formed an emotional bond with a partner before. Do you bond with other people - family, friends, coworkers, ... MTGS forum members?
I'm not saying that. I'm saying I just have no interest in a relationship or children, they are very minor things to me. My affection to other men only lasted until I got physical satisfaction from them, and that is all. I've been through many relationships, but none added anything to my life. I then realized that I was only doing it for fear of standing out or following others ideas of being happy. Turns out I never really wanted a relationship, and after my taste of sex I'm not interested in that either (really is not all its cracked up to be). I still have friends and I do like my family (does not mean I would start one of my own).
I have other things, MANY things in my mind that I have a far greater interest in. Should I live to be the age were I have accomplished half or more of those things, I can look back fondly and say my life was well lived.
It's interesting because there isn't really a compromise here, no matter who eventually gets their way, the other is not. And it's a big issue that will have serious effects on their marriage, not some small issue that not being able to compromise on isn't going to jeopardize the relationship. In this case, I think they both need to be honest about what it is they want and really evaluate how badly they want to stick to their guns, because having children and never having children is a major fork in the road for a relationship.
Completely agree. This is could ultimately be a deal-breaker on the marriage.
There is a compromise: Adoption of an older kid (5+), but a lot of people don't like adoption.
Gimme a break. PLENTY of people have kids and make much less than 6 figures a year and get by just fine.
Also, all the lines about "I don't want a kids because I would resent it " or "I don't want a kid because I wouldn't be a good dad" are similarly BS. Having a kid changes you in a way no other experience in your life does. You are a different person when you have a child. Making grand proclamations about what you will be like after your kid is born is ridiculous. It's like kids in grade school trying to describe what they will be like in their 40's. You don't have the same perspective after having kids.
Being selfish sounds great when you are in your 20's. It sucks when you are in your 60's and alone. It sucks even more lying on your death bed at 80 sick and alone.
Being selfish and self centered is a false bill of goods. You are getting the worse end of lifes bargain.
Not to mention, like it or not, most people do have kids. Which means as they get older your friends ans acquaintances will most likely start families. And guess who parents have pretty much no time or care for? Single, childless people. When they have a family they will be spending time with other families. Not you. That trip out to the movies will turn into a playdate for thier kids, hey won't be able to make the game because they are off to a birthday party, sorry, can't hang out tonight, it's the dance recital. They will have moved on, and you will be left behind, to old for the childless 20 somehting crowd, but to immature/nothing in common with people your age.
That's just a bunch of fear mongering bull. Lots of people with very modest incomes have multiple kids just fine. You in no way need to be rich to have kids. The whole "you need to be rich to have kids" is a completely ridiculous assertion. You CAN spend a zillion dollars on kids, but you in no way need to.
I'm just going to be honest, a marriage's happiness does decline with children. Childless couples that have engaged social scene are happier than parents with children. Parents are happiest thinking of their children, not being with their small children.
Your sex life will go down, you will have nights where you want to just pull your hair out. One of our children developed psychological problems extending from intensive bullying. She's fine now, but it was a pain in the ass. So much time devoted to an issue we had no idea was happening at such an intensity for so long. You know what it's like having your child tell you they want to die? She's doing very well now, but it's not something I want to repeat.
I was older whenever we had children. There are times when my body does catch up with me whenever the kids want to play a more physical game and I'm in good health.
There are times whenever you have to be creative with finances if there's a health problem in the family. There are times whenever everyone and their dog finds out you have a small child wants to bring their kid over to play. There are many reasons not to have children.
Frankly, don't listen to people that talk about "it's like telling a child blah blah."
Seriously, go talk to an elderly childless couple. Some are very happy, some regret their choice. Others in their older age, guess what? They adopt. For some people, that do not want to invest the time into raising children properly and do resent their spouse for having children.
A human life is difficult to lead, you've got the wisdom of a bad childhood. Not all children lead the same lives. I've seen my daughter's life and I've seen the life of my son. Two different people, two different lives. I've had the privilege of a difficult life myself in younger years. I was on the fence about having children for many years. I considered a worst case scenario that finally did occur, but when I noticed something off I spoke up and asked questions and made rapid, executive decisions. You have to make big decisions and be comfortable with it. You have to have the dedication to make difficult life decisions and making a call. Children force you to become a "better person," but that same could be said watching your parents die off in old age.
I'll say this much, there were parents that went through the same as what my family went through with our one child and they ended up finding their child strangled in their bedroom closet. There are people who have children die without ever seeing their first birthday. Those place great strains and do break up families. There are children who die of a drug overdose. There are children who fall prey to violence. There are children do get caught up in bad relationships and are abused by their boyfriend/girlfriend/spouses.
There's a shadowy side to children that you have to consider.
What I will say, is I still hate babies and if the wife and I do decide to go for another it will be a non traditional adoption. You might, and I emphasize might, consider doing something like taking in a foreign exchange student for a semester and see how that goes. If you're serious about parenting, you might consider, could become a foster parent. But again, that's a long discussion with yourself and the spouse. Not something to take lightly.
It sucks even more lying on your death bed at 80 sick and alone.
My friend's mother is in her 90's, most selfish and conceited woman I've ever met. She had a medium sized brood herself with many grandchildren. She's now alone, no one in her family talks to her. Because she's an emotional vampire and a total *****. I've only met the woman a few times myself, and I severely disliked her from the onset of meeting her. I'm the type of person that's very difficult to piss off, and she ground my nerves to dust. I have no idea how anyone ever laid with her to produce children, and from what I've heard she was a miserable person for all her life.
She'll die alone because she failed to cultivate the relationships necessary in life.
I have another friend who is on the verge of retirement, I've met some of her family. They come over all the time, and has a very close relationship to her nieces and nephews. She will not die alone. She has cultivated the necessary relationships in life. She is one of my mentors and a life long friend, I am deeply fond of her.
You reap what you sow.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Completely agree. This is could ultimately be a deal-breaker on the marriage.
Totally. This is one of a handful of issues that has an insanely high chance of killing relationships. Because at the end of the day, if one partner wants kids and the other does not, those people are on two very different life paths. Both completely viable, but ultimately mutually exclusive. And the strain from that mutual exclusivity of life goals will tear people apart.
There is a compromise: Adoption of an older kid (5+), but a lot of people don't like adoption.
I don't believe that's a compromise at all. The OP doesn't want kids and that goes beyond just physically creating one. He ostensibly doesn't want the responsibility, financial burden, sacrifices or lifestyle that goes along with parenting. Adoption doesn't solve that, it's not even a compromise to those issues. An adopted child is still a financial burden, still requires a change in lifestyle, etc.
Their positions are mutually exclusive. You can't have kids halfway. Either they have kids and she gets her way and he does not or they don't have kids and he gets what he wants but she does not. I don't see a win-win scenario here at all unless one changes their stance. But even that is questionable as this issue is big enough that caving for the sake of the relationship runs a high risk of generating a lot of negativity and resentment.
I truly don't think there's a way to resolve this with both parties satisfied outside of very deep marriage counselling. You both need to sit down and communicate your stances on the issue, why you feel that way and why the opposing goal doesn't work for you. That might help things, but this is a fundamental question in a marriage and having differing views is not a positive thing for your future together.
Well, I've been following this thread and want to put my two cents in.
I agree with everyone who says that if you have to be conned into having a child, don't have one. If you're not ready and do not want one, do not have one. Don't let anyone "convince" you to have one, as it will only lead to issues further down the line.
OP, no one is going to be able to convince you. There's no reason to. Your arguments are all quite valid to yourself, and that's all that matters. Only if you, and only you, can say to yourself, "I think the benefits of this situation outweigh the costs I've outlined," will you ever feel right about having kids. You shouldn't have to feel like you should have one, even if your wife does. I say this from firsthand experience.
Let's keep that honesty thing going. For quite a long time, I did. I made the mistake of conceding to my wife that it was the right time to have a child. I didn't feel quite ready yet and told myself that I would be ready in the interceding 9 months. I was scared of being a father, having helped out exceedingly with my sister who is 12 years younger than myself. I hated the experience. I really quite hated kids as it was and didn't want one.
However, I knew my wife wanted a child. She felt ready and that it was the right time. I knew it would be a thorn in my side, so I acquiesced, hoping my feelings would get better. They never did. I hated all the time my wife was pregnant (a nasty side effect of having kids) and didn't really enjoy the birthing. It was stressful and awful. I felt a little happier with my child in my arms though.
Through some awful economic-based issues, I ended up being a stay-at-home father. I had to raise my son, not my wife like we had discussed. I hated it. I hated him. I couldn't stand him. I took care of him, but more like someone at a daycare would. He was fed, clothed, changed, entertained, but I did it out of duty, not out of love and caring. He was never abused, but I'm sure I could've been a more caring parent.
I completely and utterly regretted my decision to have a kid. I came very close to leaving him and my wife behind. I hated myself for letting her con me into having the child. I didn't want him and now I was taking care of him full time? Regrets. Always regrets.
But he slowly got older and became a little more self-sufficient. I could communicate with him and soon came to enjoy watching him learn and grow. He started spending some time at daycare, giving me the ability to have a break from him. Now, honestly, I'm glad I had him, because I enjoy many of the other feelings the other parents posting in this thread do. But, to be very honest, it took two or three years before I stopped regretting my decision to have him. Now, he's generally a source of pride and joy, but not all the time. And sometimes, during those times he's being a little ****, I still have those times where I wish it was just me and my wife.
TL;DR: I agreed to have a kid when I wasn't ready. I regretted that decision for a long time. I now enjoy my kid, but it just about cost me my relationship with my wife.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Proud Owner of: Extremeicon's Hamster-balled soul Istanbul's Soul, Bidder of Myself votan's Linux-loving Soul grappler12's Poop-smithing Soul Sir Blakely's Fencing Soul CraZedMiKe's Soul Transferred Back at His Request HAWKEYE 7's Calvin and Hobbes Loving Soul Tanthalas' Greek Alliance Soul Avatar of Kokusho's Island-Hating Soul Salubrious' Rather-Belatedly Added Soul
We've had this conversation before. Some people just don't want to change into the person they'd be with kids. The person they are now does not want to make the necessary changes and sacrifices and they'd view doing so to be a negative thing
And you know this how?
That's really why this whole discussion with people who don't have kids and claim to have made that decision based on any sort of "evidence" or whatever is really pointless.
If you don't have kids, you don't know what it is like to have kids. You NEVER will know what it is like to have kids. So any proclamation that you know what you are talking about when describing why you don't want kids is a fallacy. You are basing the conclusion on zero experience.
People who don't have kids only know what it's like not to have kids. People who have kids know what it is like to have kids, and what it is like not to have kids. One of those is a better source of information that the other.
Really, it's simply indescribable. It would be like the OP trying to describe to someone else why he fell in love with his wife. Every single argument he has against having kids applies just as well to not getting married, but he evidently thought that was a good idea.
I took my son fishing for the first time today. There's no way words can adequately describe that experience to someone else who does not have kids. If you don't have kids, you are simply incapable of understanding what it is like to have kids. Kids are not some formula or equation to be added up or weighed against some other factor or whatever. You'll just NEVER get it, ever. and no one can ever explain it to you. You'd need some sort of Vulcan mind meld or something to convey the emotions
Now, honestly, I'm glad I had him, because I enjoy many of the other feelings the other parents posting in this thread do. But, to be very honest, it took two or three years before I stopped regretting my decision to have him
Exactly. Infants suck. They grow up. Everyone *****ing about kids is really *****ing about infants. It's a couple rough years. Big deal. The payback on the investment is beyond your wildest dreams.
I'd also be interested in the age of the people saying they don't want kids. Perspectives change as you get older.
It's not like being childless stagnates your life, I'm not sure why you seem to think it does. Maybe you just want to think you left your childless friends behind to a lonely, terrible life - but you probably didn't at all.
Right, because you obviously know the people I grew up with better than I do, so you are in a better position to comment on the state of their social lives
That's really why this whole discussion with people who don't have kids and claim to have made that decision based on any sort of "evidence" or whatever is really pointless.
If you don't have kids, you don't know what it is like to have kids. You NEVER will know what it is like to have kids. So any proclamation that you know what you are talking about when describing why you don't want kids is a fallacy. You are basing the conclusion on zero experience.
People who don't have kids only know what it's like not to have kids. People who have kids know what it is like to have kids, and what it is like not to have kids. One of those is a better source of information that the other.
Really, it's simply indescribable. It would be like the OP trying to describe to someone else why he fell in love with his wife. Every single argument he has against having kids applies just as well to not getting married, but he evidently thought that was a good idea.
I took my son fishing for the first time today. There's no way words can adequately describe that experience to someone else who does not have kids. If you don't have kids, you are simply incapable of understanding what it is like to have kids. Kids are not some formula or equation to be added up or weighed against some other factor or whatever. You'll just NEVER get it, ever. and no one can ever explain it to you. You'd need some sort of Vulcan mind meld or something to convey the emotions
Alright. So someone who isn't a professional chef cannot comment on crappy food? Having children does not and will never make someone more of an authority on children. People can deal with children daily, have friends/family with children. Having your own kids is not a prerequisite for having an equal viewpoint about it.
The only person whose opinion I'm seeing invalid is yours due to your incredible bias toward your side.
Having children does not and will never make someone more of an authority on children. People can deal with children daily, have friends/family with children. Having your own kids is not a prerequisite for having an equal viewpoint about it.
I'm sorry but you are 100% wrong. By trying to equate other peoples kids with kids of your own, you simply prove my point: you don't know what you are talking about, at all.
As for a "side", I don't have a side. I could not care less whether or not anyone else has kids or not. But I will call people on their BS when they try to rattle off excuses of why having kids is a bad idea, because they have no idea what they are talking about. They are talking from a point of zero experience, zero knowledge, and zero credibility on the topic.
I'm sorry but you are 100% wrong. By trying to equate other peoples kids with kids of your own, you simply prove my point: you don't know what you are talking about, at all.
As for a "side", I don't have a side. I could not care less whether or not anyone else has kids or not. But I will call people on their BS when they try to rattle off excuses of why having kids is a bad idea, because they have no idea what they are talking about. They are talking from a point of zero experience, zero knowledge, and zero credibility on the topic.
Having kids isn't a good or bad idea. Even thinking like that is insane. Children are not something you casually ask an internet forum about.
You're assuming people "have no idea what they are talking about" but you have no basis for that. You're doing the exact thing that you claim to hate.
Having children definitely has negatives as well as positives. I don't believe anyone can honestly believe otherwise unless they had an incredibly uncommon scenario.
I'm with the OP in that I don't want kids at all. My biggest fear is literally getting a girl pregnant and her keeping the child. There tons of legitimate reasons to not have kids including, but not limited to financial, emotional, and selfish reasons.
Just because someone may not know EXACTLY what it's like to have a kid it doesn't mean they will change for the better and just grow to love the child and be a phenomenal parent.
People who don't have kids only know what it's like not to have kids. People who have kids know what it is like to have kids, and what it is like not to have kids. One of those is a better source of information that the other.
The people who have kids are seeing things from their perspective, and their perspective alone. Just because you or someone sees legitimate reasons to not have a kid as "BS" doesn't mean the decision is right for others or that others will magically change and have this whole 180 turnaround. You can't speak for everyone else or know how a person will change or react to having a kid just like a person who doesn't have a kid can't know exactly what it will be like having a kid.
I like to think I know myself well enough that having a screaming, needy child that I have to pay seemingly constant attention to would piss me off and annoy me really quickly. I would much rather keep my free time, excess spending money, and flexibility with my social life rather than being chained to the needs of a child for the foreseeable future. While that may sound "BS" to you, it's very legitimate and you have no way of knowing if I'd change my mind if I actually had a child. It would be a poor choice to risk to find out.
The people who have kids are seeing things from their perspective, and their perspective alone.
The opposite is true. People who have kids have seen both sides of the coin: life without kids, and life with kids. People who don't have kids have only ever known life without kids. This disqualifies them from claiming to know what having kids is like. They don't know, and can't know. You never know what it's like until you have them.
Parents can see the downsides and upsides of kids. They've seen both sides
Non parents can try and imagine the downsides, and cannot fathom the upsides. They have no basis to make any sort of claim besides fear of the unknown.
Just because someone may not know EXACTLY what it's like to have a kid it doesn't mean they will change for the better and just grow to love the child and be a phenomenal parent.
Not exactly, you don't know at all.
Like I said, I don't give a whoot if you have kids or not, but just cut the BS about claiming you know how hard it is to have kids or what it would be like. You position is one of pure ignorance. You do not know what you are talking about, because you've never experienced it.
And once again, I would like to know how old anyone who says they don't want kids is. Because most of the people I've met who claim to know about something they have no experience with are the same people who are 20-25 years old and think they have life all figured out.
For someone who does not care whether or not someone has kids you sure are trying to convince people otherwise.
Either way, it's their life and their decision. I personally don't want kids, can't stand them (and I don't mean infants). I'd rather not deal with them and everything that comes along. Does not mean I don't love my little cousin any less, just that I'd really rather not.
But in the case of the OP, you'll just have to have a sitdown with your wife ad talk this out. It's a big step, and you need to understand each others feelings on the matter.
That's really why this whole discussion with people who don't have kids and claim to have made that decision based on any sort of "evidence" or whatever is really pointless.
If you don't have kids, you don't know what it is like to have kids. You NEVER will know what it is like to have kids. So any proclamation that you know what you are talking about when describing why you don't want kids is a fallacy. You are basing the conclusion on zero experience.
Or second-hand experience. No, we don't know first hand what it would be like to have our own children, you're absolutely right. But that doesn't mean we have absolutely no frame of reference for parenting.
I mean, I've never had cancer before but I've had enough loved ones go through it that I've seen enough of that experience to know I don't want cancer.
I have never driven an 18-wheeler, but I know a few truckers and have done a couple ride alongs and I'm pretty certain that I probably couldn't drive the truck itself, nor make the necessary sacrifices to make it my career (extended driving times, bad diet, bad sleeping conditions, never home, driving in winter, etc).
I've never been dumped in a public place in front of many people before, but I've seen those fights and spoken to people who have experienced that so I have a good idea of how that must have felt. Enough to know that I don't want to be dumped in public.
Obviously I'm not comparing these things to parenting, just pointing out that people make value-based judgments from second hand experience all the time. Thar's not an invalid manner of reaching a decision, in many cases it's the only way we can realistically reach a conclusion.
People who don't have kids only know what it's like not to have kids. People who have kids know what it is like to have kids, and what it is like not to have kids. One of those is a better source of information that the other.
Okay, but I'm not going to race out and procreate to find out whether or not child-rearing is for me. And it very well might not be, parenting isn't for everyone. Sometimes the lesser frame of information is realistically what we have to work with.
Really, it's simply indescribable. It would be like the OP trying to describe to someone else why he fell in love with his wife. Every single argument he has against having kids applies just as well to not getting married, but he evidently thought that was a good idea.
I took my son fishing for the first time today. There's no way words can adequately describe that experience to someone else who does not have kids. If you don't have kids, you are simply incapable of understanding what it is like to have kids. Kids are not some formula or equation to be added up or weighed against some other factor or whatever. You'll just NEVER get it, ever. and no one can ever explain it to you. You'd need some sort of Vulcan mind meld or something to convey the emotions
Good for you, I still don't want them.
I'd also be interested in the age of the people saying they don't want kids. Perspectives change as you get older.
29. Though that argument is still really condescending.
"You're just young and immature. One day you'll grow up and change your mind."
I've heard it before.
Right, because you obviously know the people I grew up with better than I do, so you are in a better position to comment on the state of their social lives
Oh, I apologize, it seemed more like you were making sweeping statements about people with kids leaving their childless friends to a lonely, miserable fate, which I thought was ridiculous. Obviously I don't know the people you grew up with, but judging from your own stupendous condescension and bias on this subject, I sincerely don't trust your take on their pitiful lives either. Regardless, my point was that childless people don't necessarily live lonely unfulfilled lives. They simply live different lives from those of parents, and that's totally okay.
I completely understand that you love being a parent, Valarin. But right now you're coming across really defensive of that life as well as incredibly condescending to those who haven't yet had kids and don't plan to do so. So please take a step back before you respond again, because you're being a bit of a jerk about it and I'd rather not see this thread take a bad turn.
Valarin, you immediately write off any opinions that are formed based on second hand experience but don't realize that it IS relevant. It obviously isn't as good of an opinion as first hand knowledge, but hindsight is always 20/20. Mikey makes some very good points regarding this.
To answer your question, I'm 30. The reason I didn't want kids initially was selfish, but as time goes on more and more of my friends have children. I get to see first hand how their quality of life goes down from the introduction of these children. I'm certain that there's benefits to them having children because they don't care much about it (only complain occasionally when they can't hang out/go to special events), but it's still obvious that their quality of life has gone down.
I feel that the sacrifices that would be necessary to make in that case, like no longer being able to afford certain things (sup magic), not getting as much sleep for several years, not having time for things you enjoy (sup magic again, concerts, gaming) and having considerably less time for rest and relaxation just leads me to believe that it isn't the right idea for me. Honestly the biggest sticking points for me are the sleep and relaxation. I have many friends who have children. My girlfriend is really good friends with someone who has 3 children and one of them has a crush on me. Dealing with that child is a rewarding experience (I was at her first communion) but holy christ it's one of the most exhausting things I've ever experienced. Every time we see this child, it's a lot of fun and a rewarding experience, but immediately after we leave the kid, I crash. The thought of a burden like that for somewhere in the neighborhood of 10+ years, no matter the joy it provides, is a terrifying thought.
Valarin, you immediately write off any opinions that are formed based on second hand experience but don't realize that it IS relevan
There is no such thing as second hand experience in having your own child. You cannot understand this, if you do not have a child. The fact that people equate physical activities like driving an 18 wheeler to having a child proves it.
There's no point continuing the conversation, you simply can't get it.
I feel that the sacrifices that would be necessary to make in that case, like no longer being able to afford certain things (sup magic), not getting as much sleep for several years, not having time for things you enjoy (sup magic again, concerts, gaming)
This is what I am talking about. I have a kid. I slept fine the whole time. I never missed an FNM. I was never unable to afford a card I wanted. I had all the rest and relaxation time I wanted. You are forming your opinion based on make believe and supposition.
It's like conservative Christian zealots who demonize Magic even through they never played it. They "know" it is a devils game that perverts social values and turns kids who play it into Satanists. Of course, they "know" this without having any actual experience with the game.
Same thing with people who don't have kids talking like they know what having kids is like. They *know* what thier life will be like if they have kids, even though they don't have them. You don't. You are completely ignorant of the topic.
I get to see first hand how their quality of life goes down from the introduction of these children.
But it's impossible to see the benefits of having children, because you are not them. That's like seeing one couple who broke up once, so I'm staying single forever. It's so completely ridiculous. Ask those couples if they regret having kids. Ask them 5, 10, 15, 20 years from now if they regret having kids.
But right now you're coming across really defensive of that life as well as incredibly condescending to those who haven't yet had kids and don't plan to do
There's nothing condescending or defensive going on, and I'm not advocating having children or not. I'm just calling non parents out on their BS. I'm telling you the simple truth: you are arguing for a position based on no experience with it. You have no credibility to give advice on the ups and downs of having kids until you have them. If you think second hand experience with kids means anything when it comes to your own child, you prove my point beyond a shadow of a doubt. There's simply no explaining it.
Take all of your arguments against kids, and apply them to something the OP does have: a wife. Try convincing his single friends why they should get married. They'll say "Getting married is stupid, it cost a horrendous amount of money for one day, you need to spend thousands of dollars on a ring, kiss your free time goodbye, you'll be going shopping with her every day, you'll never be able to have fun, invite friends over, your life will be over. Only suckers get married!" Try explaining why you got married to that guy. That's exactly what every non parent in this thread sounds like.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
is your conclusion to not have sex?
yeah, your argument is noted, wonder how you're going to sell your wife or any reasonable human being on that.
People can say that, but it varies according to the insividual. Not everyone believes that having children will add meaning to their lives, such a myself. As far as people reporting that, I doubt anyone would say otherwise since saying such a thing while having kids is not very acceptable.
Personally I think the whole get married and having kids is overrated, but that's just me.
Nothing outweighs when I hold her and she smiles at me.
Avatar and Sig by Xen's Inkfox Aesthetics
GWLambs and LionsWG
GMono-Green BeatsG
Testing: BGRock VariantGB
GWBJanky JunkGWB
UWGMimic BantrolUWG
BWApostleypse NowBW
Perhaps to you, yes. That is how you feel about it.
Errata text: Nothing outweighs to me and only me when I hold her and she smiles at me.
Semantics aside, I believe it could be expected that I was talking about my own personal experience, not yours or anyone elses, that I am relaying to OP for their consideration as to my personal experience, and reward thereof.
Disclaimer: Void where prohibited, not admissible in AK and HI, your mileage may vary, opinions may be closer than they appear.
Avatar and Sig by Xen's Inkfox Aesthetics
GWLambs and LionsWG
GMono-Green BeatsG
Testing: BGRock VariantGB
GWBJanky JunkGWB
UWGMimic BantrolUWG
BWApostleypse NowBW
I know, but the previous post sounded preachy, like an absolute truth that is why you should (or must) have kids. That's all.
That aside, to each their own. It does not matter to me which way the OP goes, just as long as his decision is made carefully.
I'll try to explain. Its like before puberty you weren't interested in sex or girls. In fact you thought girls had the "cooties" and wrote signs like "No Girls Allowed" on your secret hideout.
After you hit puberty you discover girls. A whole new world opens up. You start looking at them, you start to feel awkward and shy because you find yourself liking some of them. You learn about sex, you learn about love, you learn about life.
Now just try to imagine trying to convince a 7 year old that grow tired of his toys, and he will start liking girls, and that he'll give up those toys and that his life will be incredibly fulfilling and he will discover a whole new world he had never known.
That 7 year old will tell you, "you're crazy, I'll never like girls"
Thing is I never did have an interest in sex or guys, and once I discovered them I still never had an interest in them. Sex once discovered was not nearly as good as people made it out to be, and the guys only served as physical satisfaction, no lingering emotion after.
My story aside everyone is just different and you cannot accurately explain it in way that others can understand. As a kid you just sort of went with the flow a bit, as an adult you have an idea of what you want and where you're going.
It's interesting because there isn't really a compromise here, no matter who eventually gets their way, the other is not. And it's a big issue that will have serious effects on their marriage, not some small issue that not being able to compromise on isn't going to jeopardize the relationship. In this case, I think they both need to be honest about what it is they want and really evaluate how badly they want to stick to their guns, because having children and never having children is a major fork in the road for a relationship.
We've had this conversation before. Some people just don't want to change into the person they'd be with kids. The person they are now does not want to make the necessary changes and sacrifices and they'd view doing so to be a negative thing. Even if Baby Stockholm Syndrome kicks in and changes their perspective once they have kids, that doesn't invalidate their current desire to not undergo that change.
Saying "you just don't know!" is fine and probably true, but it's not at all a compelling argument to the people you're speaking to. We don't value things the way you do, and it's an incredibly huge risk to test the waters and see if you're right.
Having children isn't the only way to not be alone. You're being ridiculous.
Living the life you want to live never sucks. If I've accomplished many of my goals before I'm a senior, even if alone I likely wouldn't have regrets because I know that I got out of life what I wanted.
That's one perspective. it's common and quite insulting, but it's only one perspective.
I feel that as long as a person is finding fulfillment from their life, they're doing just fine.
Peer pressure and herd mentality is not a compelling reason to procreate.
Or you can do what I did as my friends started having children: you find new friends.
I don't begrudge my old friends for it, they're living their lives the way they want and they find value in it. We just grew apart. But luckily, there are always other people you can find similar interests with. So I'm okay with my parent friends and I drifting apart, i wasn't left behind at all. It's not like being childless stagnates your life, I'm not sure why you seem to think it does. Maybe you just want to think you left your childless friends behind to a lonely, terrible life - but you probably didn't at all.
Rich? No, probably not. But you absolutely do need to be aware of the significant financial burden children are because that cost is only increasing as time goes on. And I think you're overestimating how 'just fine' parents get by on shoestring incomes.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Hey Lone Revenant, it looks like you are saying that you haven't formed an emotional bond with a partner before. Do you bond with other people - family, friends, coworkers, ... MTGS forum members?
I'm not saying that. I'm saying I just have no interest in a relationship or children, they are very minor things to me. My affection to other men only lasted until I got physical satisfaction from them, and that is all. I've been through many relationships, but none added anything to my life. I then realized that I was only doing it for fear of standing out or following others ideas of being happy. Turns out I never really wanted a relationship, and after my taste of sex I'm not interested in that either (really is not all its cracked up to be). I still have friends and I do like my family (does not mean I would start one of my own).
I have other things, MANY things in my mind that I have a far greater interest in. Should I live to be the age were I have accomplished half or more of those things, I can look back fondly and say my life was well lived.
Completely agree. This is could ultimately be a deal-breaker on the marriage.
There is a compromise: Adoption of an older kid (5+), but a lot of people don't like adoption.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I'm just going to be honest, a marriage's happiness does decline with children. Childless couples that have engaged social scene are happier than parents with children. Parents are happiest thinking of their children, not being with their small children.
Your sex life will go down, you will have nights where you want to just pull your hair out. One of our children developed psychological problems extending from intensive bullying. She's fine now, but it was a pain in the ass. So much time devoted to an issue we had no idea was happening at such an intensity for so long. You know what it's like having your child tell you they want to die? She's doing very well now, but it's not something I want to repeat.
I was older whenever we had children. There are times when my body does catch up with me whenever the kids want to play a more physical game and I'm in good health.
There are times whenever you have to be creative with finances if there's a health problem in the family. There are times whenever everyone and their dog finds out you have a small child wants to bring their kid over to play. There are many reasons not to have children.
Frankly, don't listen to people that talk about "it's like telling a child blah blah."
Seriously, go talk to an elderly childless couple. Some are very happy, some regret their choice. Others in their older age, guess what? They adopt. For some people, that do not want to invest the time into raising children properly and do resent their spouse for having children.
A human life is difficult to lead, you've got the wisdom of a bad childhood. Not all children lead the same lives. I've seen my daughter's life and I've seen the life of my son. Two different people, two different lives. I've had the privilege of a difficult life myself in younger years. I was on the fence about having children for many years. I considered a worst case scenario that finally did occur, but when I noticed something off I spoke up and asked questions and made rapid, executive decisions. You have to make big decisions and be comfortable with it. You have to have the dedication to make difficult life decisions and making a call. Children force you to become a "better person," but that same could be said watching your parents die off in old age.
I'll say this much, there were parents that went through the same as what my family went through with our one child and they ended up finding their child strangled in their bedroom closet. There are people who have children die without ever seeing their first birthday. Those place great strains and do break up families. There are children who die of a drug overdose. There are children who fall prey to violence. There are children do get caught up in bad relationships and are abused by their boyfriend/girlfriend/spouses.
There's a shadowy side to children that you have to consider.
What I will say, is I still hate babies and if the wife and I do decide to go for another it will be a non traditional adoption. You might, and I emphasize might, consider doing something like taking in a foreign exchange student for a semester and see how that goes. If you're serious about parenting, you might consider, could become a foster parent. But again, that's a long discussion with yourself and the spouse. Not something to take lightly.
My friend's mother is in her 90's, most selfish and conceited woman I've ever met. She had a medium sized brood herself with many grandchildren. She's now alone, no one in her family talks to her. Because she's an emotional vampire and a total *****. I've only met the woman a few times myself, and I severely disliked her from the onset of meeting her. I'm the type of person that's very difficult to piss off, and she ground my nerves to dust. I have no idea how anyone ever laid with her to produce children, and from what I've heard she was a miserable person for all her life.
She'll die alone because she failed to cultivate the relationships necessary in life.
I have another friend who is on the verge of retirement, I've met some of her family. They come over all the time, and has a very close relationship to her nieces and nephews. She will not die alone. She has cultivated the necessary relationships in life. She is one of my mentors and a life long friend, I am deeply fond of her.
You reap what you sow.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Totally. This is one of a handful of issues that has an insanely high chance of killing relationships. Because at the end of the day, if one partner wants kids and the other does not, those people are on two very different life paths. Both completely viable, but ultimately mutually exclusive. And the strain from that mutual exclusivity of life goals will tear people apart.
I don't believe that's a compromise at all. The OP doesn't want kids and that goes beyond just physically creating one. He ostensibly doesn't want the responsibility, financial burden, sacrifices or lifestyle that goes along with parenting. Adoption doesn't solve that, it's not even a compromise to those issues. An adopted child is still a financial burden, still requires a change in lifestyle, etc.
Their positions are mutually exclusive. You can't have kids halfway. Either they have kids and she gets her way and he does not or they don't have kids and he gets what he wants but she does not. I don't see a win-win scenario here at all unless one changes their stance. But even that is questionable as this issue is big enough that caving for the sake of the relationship runs a high risk of generating a lot of negativity and resentment.
I truly don't think there's a way to resolve this with both parties satisfied outside of very deep marriage counselling. You both need to sit down and communicate your stances on the issue, why you feel that way and why the opposing goal doesn't work for you. That might help things, but this is a fundamental question in a marriage and having differing views is not a positive thing for your future together.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
I agree with everyone who says that if you have to be conned into having a child, don't have one. If you're not ready and do not want one, do not have one. Don't let anyone "convince" you to have one, as it will only lead to issues further down the line.
OP, no one is going to be able to convince you. There's no reason to. Your arguments are all quite valid to yourself, and that's all that matters. Only if you, and only you, can say to yourself, "I think the benefits of this situation outweigh the costs I've outlined," will you ever feel right about having kids. You shouldn't have to feel like you should have one, even if your wife does. I say this from firsthand experience.
Let's keep that honesty thing going. For quite a long time, I did. I made the mistake of conceding to my wife that it was the right time to have a child. I didn't feel quite ready yet and told myself that I would be ready in the interceding 9 months. I was scared of being a father, having helped out exceedingly with my sister who is 12 years younger than myself. I hated the experience. I really quite hated kids as it was and didn't want one.
However, I knew my wife wanted a child. She felt ready and that it was the right time. I knew it would be a thorn in my side, so I acquiesced, hoping my feelings would get better. They never did. I hated all the time my wife was pregnant (a nasty side effect of having kids) and didn't really enjoy the birthing. It was stressful and awful. I felt a little happier with my child in my arms though.
Through some awful economic-based issues, I ended up being a stay-at-home father. I had to raise my son, not my wife like we had discussed. I hated it. I hated him. I couldn't stand him. I took care of him, but more like someone at a daycare would. He was fed, clothed, changed, entertained, but I did it out of duty, not out of love and caring. He was never abused, but I'm sure I could've been a more caring parent.
I completely and utterly regretted my decision to have a kid. I came very close to leaving him and my wife behind. I hated myself for letting her con me into having the child. I didn't want him and now I was taking care of him full time? Regrets. Always regrets.
But he slowly got older and became a little more self-sufficient. I could communicate with him and soon came to enjoy watching him learn and grow. He started spending some time at daycare, giving me the ability to have a break from him. Now, honestly, I'm glad I had him, because I enjoy many of the other feelings the other parents posting in this thread do. But, to be very honest, it took two or three years before I stopped regretting my decision to have him. Now, he's generally a source of pride and joy, but not all the time. And sometimes, during those times he's being a little ****, I still have those times where I wish it was just me and my wife.
TL;DR: I agreed to have a kid when I wasn't ready. I regretted that decision for a long time. I now enjoy my kid, but it just about cost me my relationship with my wife.
Proud Owner of:
Extremeicon's Hamster-balled soul
Istanbul's Soul, Bidder of Myself
votan's Linux-loving Soul
grappler12's Poop-smithing Soul
Sir Blakely's Fencing Soul
CraZedMiKe's Soul Transferred Back at His Request
HAWKEYE 7's Calvin and Hobbes Loving Soul
Tanthalas' Greek Alliance Soul
Avatar of Kokusho's Island-Hating Soul
Salubrious' Rather-Belatedly Added Soul
DCI Advanced Organizer
And you know this how?
That's really why this whole discussion with people who don't have kids and claim to have made that decision based on any sort of "evidence" or whatever is really pointless.
If you don't have kids, you don't know what it is like to have kids. You NEVER will know what it is like to have kids. So any proclamation that you know what you are talking about when describing why you don't want kids is a fallacy. You are basing the conclusion on zero experience.
People who don't have kids only know what it's like not to have kids. People who have kids know what it is like to have kids, and what it is like not to have kids. One of those is a better source of information that the other.
Really, it's simply indescribable. It would be like the OP trying to describe to someone else why he fell in love with his wife. Every single argument he has against having kids applies just as well to not getting married, but he evidently thought that was a good idea.
I took my son fishing for the first time today. There's no way words can adequately describe that experience to someone else who does not have kids. If you don't have kids, you are simply incapable of understanding what it is like to have kids. Kids are not some formula or equation to be added up or weighed against some other factor or whatever. You'll just NEVER get it, ever. and no one can ever explain it to you. You'd need some sort of Vulcan mind meld or something to convey the emotions
Exactly. Infants suck. They grow up. Everyone *****ing about kids is really *****ing about infants. It's a couple rough years. Big deal. The payback on the investment is beyond your wildest dreams.
I'd also be interested in the age of the people saying they don't want kids. Perspectives change as you get older.
Right, because you obviously know the people I grew up with better than I do, so you are in a better position to comment on the state of their social lives
Alright. So someone who isn't a professional chef cannot comment on crappy food? Having children does not and will never make someone more of an authority on children. People can deal with children daily, have friends/family with children. Having your own kids is not a prerequisite for having an equal viewpoint about it.
The only person whose opinion I'm seeing invalid is yours due to your incredible bias toward your side.
I'm sorry but you are 100% wrong. By trying to equate other peoples kids with kids of your own, you simply prove my point: you don't know what you are talking about, at all.
As for a "side", I don't have a side. I could not care less whether or not anyone else has kids or not. But I will call people on their BS when they try to rattle off excuses of why having kids is a bad idea, because they have no idea what they are talking about. They are talking from a point of zero experience, zero knowledge, and zero credibility on the topic.
Having kids isn't a good or bad idea. Even thinking like that is insane. Children are not something you casually ask an internet forum about.
You're assuming people "have no idea what they are talking about" but you have no basis for that. You're doing the exact thing that you claim to hate.
Having children definitely has negatives as well as positives. I don't believe anyone can honestly believe otherwise unless they had an incredibly uncommon scenario.
Just because someone may not know EXACTLY what it's like to have a kid it doesn't mean they will change for the better and just grow to love the child and be a phenomenal parent.
The people who have kids are seeing things from their perspective, and their perspective alone. Just because you or someone sees legitimate reasons to not have a kid as "BS" doesn't mean the decision is right for others or that others will magically change and have this whole 180 turnaround. You can't speak for everyone else or know how a person will change or react to having a kid just like a person who doesn't have a kid can't know exactly what it will be like having a kid.
I like to think I know myself well enough that having a screaming, needy child that I have to pay seemingly constant attention to would piss me off and annoy me really quickly. I would much rather keep my free time, excess spending money, and flexibility with my social life rather than being chained to the needs of a child for the foreseeable future. While that may sound "BS" to you, it's very legitimate and you have no way of knowing if I'd change my mind if I actually had a child. It would be a poor choice to risk to find out.
The opposite is true. People who have kids have seen both sides of the coin: life without kids, and life with kids. People who don't have kids have only ever known life without kids. This disqualifies them from claiming to know what having kids is like. They don't know, and can't know. You never know what it's like until you have them.
Parents can see the downsides and upsides of kids. They've seen both sides
Non parents can try and imagine the downsides, and cannot fathom the upsides. They have no basis to make any sort of claim besides fear of the unknown.
Not exactly, you don't know at all.
Like I said, I don't give a whoot if you have kids or not, but just cut the BS about claiming you know how hard it is to have kids or what it would be like. You position is one of pure ignorance. You do not know what you are talking about, because you've never experienced it.
And once again, I would like to know how old anyone who says they don't want kids is. Because most of the people I've met who claim to know about something they have no experience with are the same people who are 20-25 years old and think they have life all figured out.
Either way, it's their life and their decision. I personally don't want kids, can't stand them (and I don't mean infants). I'd rather not deal with them and everything that comes along. Does not mean I don't love my little cousin any less, just that I'd really rather not.
But in the case of the OP, you'll just have to have a sitdown with your wife ad talk this out. It's a big step, and you need to understand each others feelings on the matter.
How do people know how they feel about something?
Or second-hand experience. No, we don't know first hand what it would be like to have our own children, you're absolutely right. But that doesn't mean we have absolutely no frame of reference for parenting.
I mean, I've never had cancer before but I've had enough loved ones go through it that I've seen enough of that experience to know I don't want cancer.
I have never driven an 18-wheeler, but I know a few truckers and have done a couple ride alongs and I'm pretty certain that I probably couldn't drive the truck itself, nor make the necessary sacrifices to make it my career (extended driving times, bad diet, bad sleeping conditions, never home, driving in winter, etc).
I've never been dumped in a public place in front of many people before, but I've seen those fights and spoken to people who have experienced that so I have a good idea of how that must have felt. Enough to know that I don't want to be dumped in public.
Obviously I'm not comparing these things to parenting, just pointing out that people make value-based judgments from second hand experience all the time. Thar's not an invalid manner of reaching a decision, in many cases it's the only way we can realistically reach a conclusion.
Okay, but I'm not going to race out and procreate to find out whether or not child-rearing is for me. And it very well might not be, parenting isn't for everyone. Sometimes the lesser frame of information is realistically what we have to work with.
Good for you, I still don't want them.
29. Though that argument is still really condescending.
"You're just young and immature. One day you'll grow up and change your mind."
I've heard it before.
Oh, I apologize, it seemed more like you were making sweeping statements about people with kids leaving their childless friends to a lonely, miserable fate, which I thought was ridiculous. Obviously I don't know the people you grew up with, but judging from your own stupendous condescension and bias on this subject, I sincerely don't trust your take on their pitiful lives either. Regardless, my point was that childless people don't necessarily live lonely unfulfilled lives. They simply live different lives from those of parents, and that's totally okay.
I completely understand that you love being a parent, Valarin. But right now you're coming across really defensive of that life as well as incredibly condescending to those who haven't yet had kids and don't plan to do so. So please take a step back before you respond again, because you're being a bit of a jerk about it and I'd rather not see this thread take a bad turn.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
To answer your question, I'm 30. The reason I didn't want kids initially was selfish, but as time goes on more and more of my friends have children. I get to see first hand how their quality of life goes down from the introduction of these children. I'm certain that there's benefits to them having children because they don't care much about it (only complain occasionally when they can't hang out/go to special events), but it's still obvious that their quality of life has gone down.
I feel that the sacrifices that would be necessary to make in that case, like no longer being able to afford certain things (sup magic), not getting as much sleep for several years, not having time for things you enjoy (sup magic again, concerts, gaming) and having considerably less time for rest and relaxation just leads me to believe that it isn't the right idea for me. Honestly the biggest sticking points for me are the sleep and relaxation. I have many friends who have children. My girlfriend is really good friends with someone who has 3 children and one of them has a crush on me. Dealing with that child is a rewarding experience (I was at her first communion) but holy christ it's one of the most exhausting things I've ever experienced. Every time we see this child, it's a lot of fun and a rewarding experience, but immediately after we leave the kid, I crash. The thought of a burden like that for somewhere in the neighborhood of 10+ years, no matter the joy it provides, is a terrifying thought.
There is no such thing as second hand experience in having your own child. You cannot understand this, if you do not have a child. The fact that people equate physical activities like driving an 18 wheeler to having a child proves it.
There's no point continuing the conversation, you simply can't get it.
This is what I am talking about. I have a kid. I slept fine the whole time. I never missed an FNM. I was never unable to afford a card I wanted. I had all the rest and relaxation time I wanted. You are forming your opinion based on make believe and supposition.
It's like conservative Christian zealots who demonize Magic even through they never played it. They "know" it is a devils game that perverts social values and turns kids who play it into Satanists. Of course, they "know" this without having any actual experience with the game.
Same thing with people who don't have kids talking like they know what having kids is like. They *know* what thier life will be like if they have kids, even though they don't have them. You don't. You are completely ignorant of the topic.
But it's impossible to see the benefits of having children, because you are not them. That's like seeing one couple who broke up once, so I'm staying single forever. It's so completely ridiculous. Ask those couples if they regret having kids. Ask them 5, 10, 15, 20 years from now if they regret having kids.
There's nothing condescending or defensive going on, and I'm not advocating having children or not. I'm just calling non parents out on their BS. I'm telling you the simple truth: you are arguing for a position based on no experience with it. You have no credibility to give advice on the ups and downs of having kids until you have them. If you think second hand experience with kids means anything when it comes to your own child, you prove my point beyond a shadow of a doubt. There's simply no explaining it.
Take all of your arguments against kids, and apply them to something the OP does have: a wife. Try convincing his single friends why they should get married. They'll say "Getting married is stupid, it cost a horrendous amount of money for one day, you need to spend thousands of dollars on a ring, kiss your free time goodbye, you'll be going shopping with her every day, you'll never be able to have fun, invite friends over, your life will be over. Only suckers get married!" Try explaining why you got married to that guy. That's exactly what every non parent in this thread sounds like.