Answers like "Go get marriage counselling" are canned and loaded.
He's asking for advice.
eg.
OP: "My wife wants to have kids, convince me on having kids"
Anon: "If you need convincing you better off not having them, go see a marriage counsellor"
This kind of advice is a total misread on the question. He's asking "my wife doesn't think like a guys, as a guy what's the good part about having kids?"
The OP knows he's gonna go through with the next step, he just wants reassurance. The advice he's getting "No" are from gays and dudes that aren't even married. Like Jay13x says you really need to keep in mind HIS situation. There is NEVER a perfect moment to have kids. Very rarely is parent so planned. That type of thinking is magical Christmas land. So my story if one of many that "happened to work out"
I'm not saying he shouldn't talk to a counsellor, but so many post in RLA are so far above some folks head that it makes sense to shut the thread down and tell them to get professional help. What I see here is a dude asking other dudes some peer to peer counseling. It helps to be able to speak from experienced. I asked earlier in the thread if any parents regretted becoming parents. One fellow replied with a very honest answer of the challenges and resentment but also the source of pride his child has become to him.
I have yet to see any other posts that speak negatively from experience, just theory crafting and imagination. That kind of advice is valuable as a $3 bill. If you don't have first hand experience you why are you answering? Because you don't want kids? You like verbal jousting?
Would the question be reworded "Should I leave my wife? She wants kids now" bring a little more clarity?
the some of you would be focused on the wife and her wants and how its unfair. Still you would be missing the big picture.
Or maybe those who do have kids and do regret them don't want to say it out loud, stuff like that tends to stick with people. Note the some say "it was hell" in some detail and then say "BUT, dot dot dot".
Anyway, asking for help with this sort of thing online is bound to draw a "war" between two sides, each colored by their own perceptions on the matter. The result will just be an eternal back as forth between the two sides.
If you want progress, talk to your wife first, ask about her feelings and why and then do the same yourself. Get an understanding of where the two of you are coming from. Hopefully you can resolve it with this heart to heart, as communication is the first step. If it gets nowhere then you might have to consider marriage counseling. You need a neutral party (aka not most people posting here) to help work this out. Even though you differ on this the fact that you would take that step to stay together speaks to your commitment.
On a side note, it seems to me that asking for the pros and cons is how you perform decisions in life. Look at what both sides offer and then make the decision. I think you want to let the facts speak for themselves. Thing is about kids, your mileage may vary. You're going to get a lot of different views on it because each experience is different. This is one where the pros and cons are a little gray, which may explain your difficulty.
In the end, it is your life. I just hope you choose your course of action wisely.
Answers like "Go get marriage counselling" are canned and loaded.
In this case, I think it's entirely warranted as this is an issue that has a good chance of causing damage to the relationship. More so if it's not handled properly. I'm not one who ordinarily jumps to professional help in RLA threads, but I think this case would greatly benefit from it. I'd advocate communication between the two, but I suspect that left to their own devices, the couple may not ever lay things completely on the table which is a critical mistake here. Both parties need to really understand their own motivations as well as the other's and a professional is the best way of getting that done, as far as I'm concerned.
He's asking for advice.
eg.
OP: "My wife wants to have kids, convince me on having kids"
Anon: "If you need convincing you better off not having them, go see a marriage counsellor"
This kind of advice is a total misread on the question. He's asking "my wife doesn't think like a guys, as a guy what's the good part about having kids?"
The OP knows he's gonna go through with the next step, he just wants reassurance.
I didn't read it that way at all, I took what he said at face value. He doesn't want kids, his wife does and she's not making a good case for it so how should he progress?
The advice he's getting "No" are from gays and dudes that aren't even married.
I have yet to see any other posts that speak negatively from experience, just theory crafting and imagination. That kind of advice is valuable as a $3 bill. If you don't have first hand experience you why are you answering? Because you don't want kids? You like verbal jousting?
I initially responded because the OP said he doesn't want children and I wanted to impress upon him that if he's going to have kids he needs to be sure that he wants to and not just doing it to appease his wife or because he feels obligated. And also to support him if he ultimately chooses not to have kids because that is also a valid life choice that doesn't limit the fulfilment he can have.
the some of you would be focused on the wife and her wants and how its unfair. Still you would be missing the big picture.
I actually mentioned his wife a couple time, particularly in regards to how this situation has no compromise and either of them getting his or her way ultimately means the other loses out. But since the OP is the one asking for advice, he's the one most are going to focus on. Most of the advice given here would certainly be fair to his wife as well, since most people are advocating a lot of communication between them both. I don't think anyone here wants the OP to be unfair to his wife.
I didn't read it that way at all, I took what he said at face value. He doesn't want kids, his wife does and she's not making a good case for it so how should he progress?
You must have misread the OP. The OP is appealing to parents, and more specifically Fathers and is asking to be convinced. He wants to know "What's in it for me?"
...So my wife is bugging me about kids again. The older I get, the less I want children. I'm open to being convinced, but she sucks at convincing. Is there any advantage to having children when the following points are true?
So I hope you appreciate that I don't understand the rationale of posting in this thread where a potential father with some uncertainty is asking for some guidance and a sneak peak into the realm of fatherhood. When you and some other posters have only offered fears and paranoia and provided clear view against having children. Its like taking a guy who's afraid of flying, and telling him all the horrific things that can happen if he gets on a plane.
Reminder again: He is asking for Convincing to get on that plane
You must have misread the OP. The OP is appealing to parents, and more specifically Fathers
I'm sorry, I didn't read the part where he was appealing to parents and fathers.
and is asking to be convinced. He wants to know "What's in it for me?"
Highlighted for clarity
Sure, he says he's open to it. In the same line where he says he's found himself wanting kids less and less as he gets older.
Appealing to the forum to convince him to have kids aside (which is asinine for very important reasons), I think providing counterpoints for the OP is valid. Particularly when he already has significant doubts. Reminding him that his reservations are valid and need to be addressed before pursuing this path for himself because there aren't take backs with kids and he needs to be sure that this is what he wants - that's a good thing to do, I believe.
So I hope you appreciate that I don't understand the rationale of posting in this thread where a potential father with some uncertainty is asking for some guidance and a sneak peak into the realm of fatherhood. When you and some other posters have only offered fears and paranoia and provided clear view against having children.
The rationale is clear: he needs to be certain of what he wants. He says he doesn't want kids, but also that he's open to convincing. I think he needs to decide for himself which way he wants to go because he's got a lot riding on it. He has posters telling him that his reservations are unfounded and that his current feelings will be invalidated once he has a child, I (and others) are providing a counterpoint to that: that being childless is a valid choice capable of leading to fulfilling lives just as having children is capable of leading to an unfulfilled life.
Its like taking a guy who's afraid of flying, and telling him all the horrific things that can happen if he gets on a plane.
Reminder again: He is asking for Convincing to get on that plane
Well it's taking someone who doesn't want to do something because of what he feels he'd need to do in order to pursue that path and making sure he's clear on the risks he himself has outlined.
I think if the OP is relying on this forum to convince him to have children when he's unsure and his own wife hasn't sold him on the idea, he's in some trouble.
I'm not one who ordinarily jumps to professional help in RLA threads, but I think this case would greatly benefit from it.
Yes - seek professional advice! If income is an issue, many Marriage & Family Therapists (might have a different name in Canada) work on a sliding scale. Keep in mind - like so much else in life - you will only get out of counseling what you are willing to put into it.
I initially responded because the OP said he doesn't want children and I wanted to impress upon him that if he's going to have kids he needs to be sure that he wants to and not just doing it to appease his wife or because he feels obligated. And also to support him if he ultimately chooses not to have kids because that is also a valid life choice that doesn't limit the fulfilment he can have.
I agree - before having a child, the OP (and anyone else reading this thread) needs to be willing to commit to the associated responsibilities. I would also agree that it's possible to live a full, satisfying, rewarding life without children.
This next is not in response to or in support of any specific poster. I'm not taking sides for or against any specific person here:
The oft-repeated phrase is, "it's different when they're your kids," and I've found this to be true in my experience. What this means for me is that while the costs of parenthood are clear from an external point of view, the benefits are not. Before I had my daughter, I knew it would be expensive in terms of money, energy and time. (In some ways, I even underestimated the investment.) But I also had no way to quantify the emotional payoff - i.e., how rewarding the experience would be.
Will everyone have this reaction? Probably not. Some people make up their mind about something and will never change it. Some people don't form emotional bonds with other human beings. If you suspect that you're one of the 'some people,' please don't have children.
Anyone reading this chain can test whether or not it was worth it to people who have had the experience of parenthood by asking them.
Be sure to ask parents who are no longer married as well - ask them whether their relationship with their child outlasted their relationship with their spouse. Ask them what they would have done differently.
I've met people who wished that they had waited to have children or had fewer children. There may be a good lesson in there. While it's possible to father and raise a child at age 16, it's a lot harder than waiting until your late 20s or early 30s. The child will also probably turn out better (at least, on average, as indicated by studies).
Finally, a couple of personal experiences:
Experience 1. I made the point once to my mother that I wished I had fewer siblings so that I would have had more attention from my parents (I was one of 6 kids). She conceded that it was similarly hard on her to raise that many kids. But then she asked me, "which one would you send back?" My answer - and her answer - was none of them. While in abstract it was less expensive not to have a child (or sibling, in my case), in specifics, each of them were worth it.
Experience 2. As I noted a few times in this thread, my wife and I had a similar discussion.
I would agree that it's very difficult to compromise on this topic. While I wanted zero and she wanted two, one was not a fair compromise. One is infinitely larger than zero, while one is only a 50% reduction from two.
Some of the things we did agree on - these are personal decisions between us, but feel free to flame away:
One child only. And that we would never discuss having a second child unless I initiated it.
No Down Syndrome. We'd get genetic testing done. Fortunately, testing was negative, so we didn't have to experience the decision of actually choosing whether to terminate the pregnancy.
Since my wife was the person who primarily wanted the child, she'd be the primary caregiver. i.e., we agreed to the more traditional 1950s parenting roles where my wife would stay at home and I would go to work.
That notwithstanding #3, I would be engaged enough in my child's life so as not to be objectively a "bad father."
My daughter could never, ever, never know that one of us didn't initially want to have her.
I'm sorry, I didn't read the part where he was appealing to parents and fathers.
I'm to say this without sounding condescending. But it should have been something you learned in School. When writing a book report, usually a part of the question asks "Who is the author writing too? Who is his audience?" Let's say the thread was titled "How to make a perfect BBQ chicken?" Author or OP would be asking people who know how to BBQ chicken. By the very nature of his question "Convince me to have kids" its obvious to me that he's speaking to people who have kids, meaning Parents and specifically fathers and asking what the positive aspects of having kids.
Appealing to the forum to convince him to have kids aside (which is asinine for very important reasons), I think providing counterpoints for the OP is valid. Particularly when he already has significant doubts. Reminding him that his reservations are valid and need to be addressed before pursuing this path for himself because there aren't take backs with kids and he needs to be sure that this is what he wants - that's a good thing to do, I believe.
Ok, so now we have insulted the OP for asking the forum. A part of me wants to agree that its a bad idea because of the lousy advice you as a person who has no parenting experience, nor the desire to have children, and hasn't been in the position where their spouse is asking them to consider having kids. You've managed to twist the OP's questions to suit your philosophy. The Thread is TITLED "Advantage to having kids" where we have agreed that he is ASKING to be convinced.
The OP isn't a child or an idiot. He establishes in his post what his view and concerns are. The "counter points" you've made don't speak to ANY of the questions the OP is asking. "What is the Advantage of having kids?"
Here's the OP so we can remind ourselves what he is asking and his already established list of concerns.
Honest question. Really. So my wife is bugging me about kids again. The older I get, the less I want children. I'm open to being convinced, but she sucks at convincing. Is there any advantage to having children when the following points are true?
- I don't have any desire to teach kids. I don't enjoy their company. I don't enjoy playing with them. I'm bad at pretending to lose. I don't find children of any age cute.
- I'd rather not partake in pretty much anything 'kiddy' (food, events, movies, etc).
- I had a deeply unhappy childhood and don't want to put in the effort to give a child a happy childhood. I'd rather spend the time to make myself happy.
- I value my sleep and free time more than any companionship a child might give.
- There's a nonzero chance that my life will be ruined by having a child with some sort of debilitating disability that will require infinite money and time.
- There's also a nonzero chance that my kid will end up a criminal and murder me in my sleep or steal my money or something.
- There's an almost certain chance that my kid will hate me when the kid is a teenager. Why would I ever want to have to deal with that?
- I value my money. And I'm deeply in debt. I'd prefer to spend my money on myself, when I actually have money. Children are too expensive.
- I'm on contract and have no certainty as to whether I will have a job in a year. If I end up without a job, I'll likely be unemployed for a long time due to my profession.
- Children wreck stuff and make mistakes and I'd rather not have to deal with that.
- That there will be somebody to take care of me in my old age is of no concern to me. That's what assisted living is for. And it's not like my parents take care of *their* parents. Or my parents in law for that matter.
(Yes, the above is rather brutally honest. But hey, better honest than not, eh?)
In the OP's view he sees the downsides, he is ASKING to be shown the UPSIDE
Quite simply, You are over evaluating the quality of your advice as you are ill equipped to provide specific information on this subject. ie. first hand experience of being a parent.
I'm in the same boat as the OP to the extent that I agree that I don't want kids for basically the same reasons listed. Luckily, my wife feels the same way. She is still young enough to change her mind though, hence why I've been following this thread closely.
I think the following quote concisely sums up the pro-kid position:
The oft-repeated phrase is, "it's different when they're your kids," and I've found this to be true in my experience. What this means for me is that while the costs of parenthood are clear from an external point of view, the benefits are not. Before I had my daughter, I knew it would be expensive in terms of money, energy and time. (In some ways, I even underestimated the investment.) But I also had no way to quantify the emotional payoff - i.e., how rewarding the experience would be.
Basically, we're correct that there is a cost, but necessarily can't understand the benefit. Understood. My genuine question is, so what do we do now? It has been established that we can't know the good, yet, the decision has to be made based on this limited information anyways.
If someone came to you asking to to invest in their business, telling you that for thousands of dollars and countless hours of work you would receive a vague and unquantifiable feeling of fulfillment, any reasonable person would laugh in their face. This is, perhaps, a crass analogy, but it is exactly what's happening here.
I'm not closed off to the idea of children, I simply agree with many here that as a non-parent, I don't understand. And while I agree that it's silly for a non-parent to give parenting advice, I find it equally silly for a parent to project their sense of fulfillment unto another person. I don't know a thing about being a parent, but I know a decent amount about myself. I have no trouble believing that many people find great joy in being a parent, but knowing myself, I find it very hard to believe that I'd feel the same way.
So how would you advise me?
Option 1 - Acknowledge they I might know more about myself than you do and tell me to remain childless.
Option 2 - Tell me to have kids and let me risk not finding the same fulfillment you've found resulting in a miserable life for both myself and my child.
I don't mean this to be as snarky as it sounds because I'm genuinely curious. Like I said, I'm not completely closed off to the idea of children. The idea of having a family with adult children appeals to me down the road, and I wonder if I'll regret not having kids when I'm 60. But the thought of having defendants at any age sounds awful.
Reopened by request. Keep it on-topic, and remember you are giving advice, not debating the value of having children. Keep it civil and keep it on-topic, take it to debate if you want to argue each other's points.
OK, I’ll add a couple more thoughts. (I responded to ZaQ777 offline.)
First, standard disclaimers:
Children are an irrevocable election.
And it's a responsibility that one cannot walk away from. Beyond the reality of child support, which requires continued financial contributions, I believe that if anyone has a child, whether intentional or not, it's their responsibility to put on their big boy pants and be the best parent possible to that child.
If you don’t want a child, make that decision before you have one.
Children carry a tremendous cost.
And the costs of raising a child are generally readily quantifiable.
To reiterate, there is a tremendous cost for having a child, in terms of money, time and energy. Captain Morgan also noted some of the potential associated stress, if that's a separate category from energy. The US Department of Agriculture study was updated for 2012, showing a 3% increase to $241K from the 2011 study. As noted previously, pay attention to everything that isn’t included in those estimates and also benchmark to your specific circumstances.
There will also be stress on your relationship with your spouse. It’s not atypical to take a year post-childbirth to figure out how to make sex work again, for example. Or you may find that there is so much focus on your child that you neglect your relationship with each other.
Also, I’m not sure about the exact details of your difficult childhood, but – for example – parents who were abused as children are more likely to abuse their children. More likely – not guaranteed, by any means – but something to be aware of so as not to repeat.
Children are not transactional.
While the costs are generally quantifiable, the benefits are generally not.
Parenthood is not an investment decision where you put in X dollars and have a reasonable expectation of receiving Y dollars back. Parenthood is more like a charity – or other altruistic endeavor: you invest your time/energy/money/knowledge and hope to find that at the end the experience was rewarding. The payoff is making a difference in someone's life, having a relationship with another human being, and the associated increase in self-reported meaning that comes with the above.
While some children provide adult care for their parents (there was a recent article on 65 year olds caring for their 85-90 year old parents) I believe it’s far more prudent to plan for retirement through a comprehensive financial plan.
All relationships end.
We have a zero % chance of leaving this world alive, and the same is true of our spouses and children. There's really no way around that.
Disclaimers aside, most parents find the experience worth it.
While they may not self-report a higher level of “happiness,” (data on this is mixed – some studies note happiness declines, others note that happiness can increase or decrease depending on age/gender and number of children), parents do report a higher level of “meaning” in their lives.
To gauge whether that return is worth it, fortunately, there is a massive sample size of parents to draw from (~80% of Americans will have a child before age 50). I'd suggest asking as many parents as you can whether they felt the trade-off was worth it. I found the perspectives of divorced fathers illuminating – despite mixed feelings about their ex-spouses, they invariably wanted to spend more time with their children.
I’d like to expand on a couple benefits:
Children will change you. I’m thinking of this in three ways.
First, children will change your interests. You are likely to find that you would rather spend weekends taking your child to the zoo than playing MTG or watching the game. I’m not suggesting that you’ll never get to do the same things that you love doing now, just that you’re likely to find activities that bring laughs or giggles or smiles from your child far more thrilling. That’s part of forming an emotional bond with your child.
Second, the parenthood experience provides many opportunities to become a better person. (You can put that in air quotes.) Have you ever wanted to be more patient with others? Guess how one becomes better at that? That’s right, lots of exposure to irritating experiences. You’ll also get lots of opportunities to think of other people before yourself; to become more generous, more caring, more thoughtful. If you ever want an opportunity to be on the giving end of unconditional love, this is your chance.
Third, parenthood will give you a chance to experience the full gamut of human emotion from joy to terror. You’ll be alive; you'll be a full participant in life.
Parenthood is part of the human experience. Parenthood brings a common set of experiences with people of all classes/ages/walks. It provides a topic of conversation with strangers. It makes it easier to bond with other parents and form communities with other parents.
You’ll also find that there is a vast array of structures out there to support raising a child. Playdates with other parents, parent groups, recitals, school plays, etc. You’ll get to share some of the joy of being a child at Disneyland.
Finally, some ideas on maximizing potential for a happy outcome.
Make sure you and your wife are on the same page. Counseling was suggested. Continue to invest in your relationship.
You and your wife can negotiate how you will be parents in a way that works for the two of you. I shared my experiences above.
I would suggest that parenthood is a skill – one that can be taught (there are many books from the practical to the behavioral – one of my favorite in the latter category is How to Talk so your Children will Listen) and one that parents become better at with practice. I believe that if you strive to become a better parent that this will payoff through an increase in skill, as well as better outcomes for your child/children.
Parents who wait to have children tend to report better outcomes than those who have children young. In addition to emotional maturity, older parents are more likely to have financial security that may be lacking in couples just starting out.
OK, I’ll add a couple more thoughts. (I responded to ZaQ777 offline.)
First, standard disclaimers:
Children are an irrevocable election.
And it's a responsibility that one cannot walk away from. Beyond the reality of child support, which requires continued financial contributions, I believe that if anyone has a child, whether intentional or not, it's their responsibility to put on their big boy pants and be the best parent possible to that child.
If you don’t want a child, make that decision before you have one.
Children carry a tremendous cost.
And the costs of raising a child are generally readily quantifiable.
To reiterate, there is a tremendous cost for having a child, in terms of money, time and energy. Captain Morgan also noted some of the potential associated stress, if that's a separate category from energy. The US Department of Agriculture study was updated for 2012, showing a 3% increase to $241K from the 2011 study. As noted previously, pay attention to everything that isn’t included in those estimates and also benchmark to your specific circumstances.
There will also be stress on your relationship with your spouse. It’s not atypical to take a year post-childbirth to figure out how to make sex work again, for example. Or you may find that there is so much focus on your child that you neglect your relationship with each other.
Also, I’m not sure about the exact details of your difficult childhood, but – for example – parents who were abused as children are more likely to abuse their children. More likely – not guaranteed, by any means – but something to be aware of so as not to repeat.
Children are not transactional.
While the costs are generally quantifiable, the benefits are generally not.
Parenthood is not an investment decision where you put in X dollars and have a reasonable expectation of receiving Y dollars back. Parenthood is more like a charity – or other altruistic endeavor: you invest your time/energy/money/knowledge and hope to find that at the end the experience was rewarding. The payoff is making a difference in someone's life, having a relationship with another human being, and the associated increase in self-reported meaning that comes with the above.
While some children provide adult care for their parents (there was a recent article on 65 year olds caring for their 85-90 year old parents) I believe it’s far more prudent to plan for retirement through a comprehensive financial plan.
All relationships end.
We have a zero % chance of leaving this world alive, and the same is true of our spouses and children. There's really no way around that.
Disclaimers aside, most parents find the experience worth it.
While they may not self-report a higher level of “happiness,” (data on this is mixed – some studies note happiness declines, others note that happiness can increase or decrease depending on age/gender and number of children), parents do report a higher level of “meaning” in their lives.
To gauge whether that return is worth it, fortunately, there is a massive sample size of parents to draw from (~80% of Americans will have a child before age 50). I'd suggest asking as many parents as you can whether they felt the trade-off was worth it. I found the perspectives of divorced fathers illuminating – despite mixed feelings about their ex-spouses, they invariably wanted to spend more time with their children.
I’d like to expand on a couple benefits:
Children will change you. I’m thinking of this in three ways.
First, children will change your interests. You are likely to find that you would rather spend weekends taking your child to the zoo than playing MTG or watching the game. I’m not suggesting that you’ll never get to do the same things that you love doing now, just that you’re likely to find activities that bring laughs or giggles or smiles from your child far more thrilling. That’s part of forming an emotional bond with your child.
Second, the parenthood experience provides many opportunities to become a better person. (You can put that in air quotes.) Have you ever wanted to be more patient with others? Guess how one becomes better at that? That’s right, lots of exposure to irritating experiences. You’ll also get lots of opportunities to think of other people before yourself; to become more generous, more caring, more thoughtful. If you ever want an opportunity to be on the giving end of unconditional love, this is your chance.
Third, parenthood will give you a chance to experience the full gamut of human emotion from joy to terror. You’ll be alive; you'll be a full participant in life.
Parenthood is part of the human experience. Parenthood brings a common set of experiences with people of all classes/ages/walks. It provides a topic of conversation with strangers. It makes it easier to bond with other parents and form communities with other parents.
You’ll also find that there is a vast array of structures out there to support raising a child. Playdates with other parents, parent groups, recitals, school plays, etc. You’ll get to share some of the joy of being a child at Disneyland.
Finally, some ideas on maximizing potential for a happy outcome.
Make sure you and your wife are on the same page. Counseling was suggested. Continue to invest in your relationship.
You and your wife can negotiate how you will be parents in a way that works for the two of you. I shared my experiences above.
I would suggest that parenthood is a skill – one that can be taught (there are many books from the practical to the behavioral – one of my favorite in the latter category is How to Talk so your Children will Listen) and one that parents become better at with practice. I believe that if you strive to become a better parent that this will payoff through an increase in skill, as well as better outcomes for your child/children.
Parents who wait to have children tend to report better outcomes than those who have children young. In addition to emotional maturity, older parents are more likely to have financial security that may be lacking in couples just starting out.
You're making it seem as though choosing not to have kids means that you will miss out on life or not living a full one. That without kids you won't be as good a person as someone with them. It's like indirectly attacking those who don't want kids. (Just my thoughts)
Anyone can become a better person as listed above through conscious effort on their own part, and meaning in life is different based on the person (children not exactly needed). But children do FORCE you into being a better person, as someone mentioned before.
Just saying that no matter what you decide your life will not be lesser in any way, just different. Just different.
Infraction for ignoring a moderator's request --Senori
Lone Revenant - I wasn't attempting to indirectly or directly attack anyone who doesn't want children. I apologize if I came across that way.
Rereading my post, I didn't say that life will be fuller or that one will become a better person by having a child. I did say that you would have a chance to become a better person and a chance to experience life fully. I will add now that I don't believe it's not the only chance (it looks like I may have stated this - to you - earlier in this thread).
My post was intended for the OP - he's in a committed relationship with a woman he loves and she wants to have a child. My message - throughout the thread - is that if he accepts ALL of the costs and responsibilities, I believe that he will find the experience to be "worth it."
While you haven't shared as much about your personal circumstances as the OP, I may not have the same message for you. From what you have shared, it appears that you 1) don't want children, and 2) are not in a committed relationship with someone who does want children. Unless there is an imminent event that will prevent you from having children permanently, I can't think of a compelling reason for you to consider having children now.
Propagating your awesome (or awful) genes and taking the world.
Seriously, I think kids in general can be and often are a pain in the neck but they have their redeeming qualities.
To me, 'cause I'm weird like that, kids don't mean what they do to others (e.g., cement marriage, strengthen marriage, a product of love [or intentional or unintentional love-making]). Instead, having kids allows you a world of opportunities (while, yes, also limiting or outright closing the door on others) and to more fully do things you wouldn't have thought you could do.
For women, having kids can be a life- and lifestyle-changing thing, especially if one works. In some respects, it can be quite unfortunate being a woman.
That aside, while it is questionable whether this thread is fitting for RLA, if you want kids, you will and you'll probably have kids. If you don't, don't then. To me, whether you are or feel or become cluckish is just that; there's no logic or reason behind it.
Just communicate frankly with your wife. Perhaps you alone or with your wife can see a marriage counsellor, a psychologist, a doctor, etc. There could in fact be underlying, unresolved issues here.
Basically, we're correct that there is a cost, but necessarily can't understand the benefit. Understood. My genuine question is, so what do we do now? It has been established that we can't know the good, yet, the decision has to be made based on this limited information anyways.
If someone came to you asking to to invest in their business, telling you that for thousands of dollars and countless hours of work you would receive a vague and unquantifiable feeling of fulfillment, any reasonable person would laugh in their face. This is, perhaps, a crass analogy, but it is exactly what's happening here.
What you don't do is try to draw comparisons between having kids and something like investing in a business. You cannot compare having kids to any other experience in the world, it's a truly incomparable experience.
I'm not closed off to the idea of children, I simply agree with many here that as a non-parent, I don't understand. And while I agree that it's silly for a non-parent to give parenting advice, I find it equally silly for a parent to project their sense of fulfillment unto another person.
No one's projecting, we are informing. We cannot project the feeling on you, it's impossible.
I don't know a thing about being a parent, but I know a decent amount about myself. I have no trouble believing that many people find great joy in being a parent, but knowing myself, I find it very hard to believe that I'd feel the same way.
Having a child is the most life changing thing you can ever do. You know yourself now, you do not know yourself as a parent. You have no idea the capacity you have for loving another person until you have kids. You're knowledge of yourself is simply incomplete.
So how would you advise me?
Option 1 - Acknowledge they I might know more about myself than you do and tell me to remain childless.
Option 2 - Tell me to have kids and let me risk not finding the same fulfillment you've found resulting in a miserable life for both myself and my child.
That's a pretty loaded way to put it, isn't it?
You can't advise people to have kids. You can tell them your experiences, and let them make their minds up themselves. However, I would challenge that notion that the secret to a happy and fulfilled life is to remain selfish and inwardly focused, with your only goal being to accumulate as much currency as you can so you can spend it on temporary experiences.
In my opinion, the key to happiness is to continually grow as a person, and be outwardly focused, on helping others, being generous, and cultivating a caring, giving personality. Kids do a pretty great job of helping people do that.
I wonder if I'll regret not having kids when I'm 60. But the thought of having defendants at any age sounds awful.
I would say one of those things is FAR more likely than the other. But that's just my opinion.
Honestly, all the complaints I hear about having kids don't even apply to kids. They apply to babies. Guess what? Babies grow up. It's a rough couple years. Big deal. Going to college was longer and harder and more expensive than my sons baby years. But I still went through with it, because the benefit was worth it.
Using the "I'm no having kids" logic, getting a girlfriend seems like a really bad idea, I mean, girls cost money, they place demands on your time, they make you do things you don't want to do, why would anyone get a girlfriend? Getting married is even a worse idea, you need to spend even more time wth the girl, spend a ton of money on a wedding, and you lose 1/2 your stuff if you ever break up! Why would anyone get married?
The answer is that forming emotional relationships with other people is a worthwhile experience that offsets the financial cost, loss of freedom, and time commitment. Kids are no different, it's the same thing, just on a bigger scale on both sides of the equation.
Infraction for ignoring a moderator's request --Senori
Judging by the responses still being posted I would recommend the OP go to marriage counseling. He would be better off seeing a neutral party who has more than likely had experience in dealing with couples who are conflicted over children. Also having a mediator like said individual would help the both of you keep calm and allow your points to come across clearly rather than ripping throats out (not saying that will happen but better to err on caution). But this is a serious situation you need to resolve, marriages break up because of this so you need to take action. I would honestly avoid this forum an seek the aid of a professional, marriage counselors have seen this many times and know how to handle it. It may cost a bit, but I think it a price worth paying to keep you both together yes?
Honest question. Really. So my wife is bugging me about kids again. The older I get, the less I want children. I'm open to being convinced, but she sucks at convincing. Is there any advantage to having children when the following points are true?
- I don't have any desire to teach kids. I don't enjoy their company. I don't enjoy playing with them. I'm bad at pretending to lose. I don't find children of any age cute.
- I'd rather not partake in pretty much anything 'kiddy' (food, events, movies, etc).
- I had a deeply unhappy childhood and don't want to put in the effort to give a child a happy childhood. I'd rather spend the time to make myself happy.
- I value my sleep and free time more than any companionship a child might give.
- There's a nonzero chance that my life will be ruined by having a child with some sort of debilitating disability that will require infinite money and time.
- There's also a nonzero chance that my kid will end up a criminal and murder me in my sleep or steal my money or something.
- There's an almost certain chance that my kid will hate me when the kid is a teenager. Why would I ever want to have to deal with that?
- I value my money. And I'm deeply in debt. I'd prefer to spend my money on myself, when I actually have money. Children are too expensive.
- I'm on contract and have no certainty as to whether I will have a job in a year. If I end up without a job, I'll likely be unemployed for a long time due to my profession.
- Children wreck stuff and make mistakes and I'd rather not have to deal with that.
- That there will be somebody to take care of me in my old age is of no concern to me. That's what assisted living is for. And it's not like my parents take care of *their* parents. Or my parents in law for that matter.
(Yes, the above is rather brutally honest. But hey, better honest than not, eh?)
Do you know why right now you don't want to have kids?
Because you're smart. You have a good head on your shoulders, and god I hope one day you do have kids because you'd make a great parent from this moment of clarity.
You understand that at this moment there is no feasible way for you to devote yourself to a child, that right now you don't want to emotionally give to someone that would sap your energy away leaving you frail and slowly going mad with frustration.
Kids take time, energy, and stability. To raise the next generation is a huge responsibility anyone can take part in, but few know what they're doing.
You may later in life decide to have children, but right now it's not what you want, and it's not for you.
For Women it's different, they have a certain amount of time to have a kid and then its up. But guess what, if you have a kid, it's in your wallet for life. If your wife decides to poke holes in your condom and implant herself with your sneaky swimmers it's still on you.
You can't force your wife to have an abortion, and it's also very hard (and unfortunately biased as the scummiest thing you can do) to try and legally distance yourself from a child so you don't have to pay for the kid and your wife.
Unfortunately kids are costly, if you have a line of work that is your dreamjob, stick with it, because having a kid (unless you have made your dreamjob work first) will probably end up diverting you from that path and your priority will be that kid.
It's shoddy what happens when you have a kid. I know first hand.
My mom was making 70,000$/year in Los Angeles working for a Newspaper and she married my dad when she was 23, a year later I was born. Her life has gone downhill in a winding roller coaster of despair and failure. She was a Top of her Class College Graduate at Mizzou, and now she lives off of Social Security and Welfare and her parents pay her rent. She is 47 years old.
If she had waited to have kids, she probably would have divorced my dad and grown up as a mature adult and then had kids when she could financially afford it and be in a responsible relationship with a guy. Granted I probably wouldn't have been born, but it would have saved her 20 some odd years of financial ruin, struggling, and emotional disasters.
So when you think about whether or not you're ready to have kids, think about if you're ready for your life to end. Because in all essence, it does. Your life ends and begins anew with newfound purpose, that kid, once it's born your life becomes the building blocks for his existence. Your money goes to plan for his college, first car, school supplies, food, bail-out-of-jail-money, birthdays, christmas, doctors.
Is it worth it? Maybe. Maybe.
For my mom? Well I hope to one day get her a beachfront apartment in Venice for her to just relax, but that's still a couple years off.
For you?
Really be careful if your wife is having repeated conversations like this, hide your condoms and only use those. Unfortunately you made need to consider a hard and fast ultimatum of where you will not have kids until you're ready and she may need to find someone else to fulfill her needs.
I know you're in love now, but you worked hard to get to where you are I'm sure, and no woman or child of drunkensexandneedlepokesincondoms should deter your dreams. There's thousands of Children being born elsewhere, you don't need to raise the future when it's happening without your input.
This thread is ridiculous. I have two kids and the idea that your world ends is false. I still draft once a week. I still play d&d once a week. My wife attends collage. I am going back to grad school. I work a full time job that I like. I live close to my friends and family who I still see.
If you want to know what being a parent really is. It is a challenge. If you cannot solve simple problems like time management or budgeting then don't have kids. If you cannot get a decent paying job don't have kids (We are a single income family and I am a 5 year teacher in texas). If you cannot explain to your kids in simple terms what you want and apply punishment in a calm and consistent manner your life will be more difficult.
The only thing I have given up is cursing. Seriously. I have a three week old infant and i sleep all night long.
Also nothing that has ever brought me happiness can compare to how my kid gets sad when i leave for work and how he runs to my car door when I come home. I recently went to my first GP. I made day 2. I finished 33rd. It was my best magic moment. At the end of the day I was missing my child. I called him between rounds and we sang childish t.v. show songs. (My kid loves music)
Trust me when i say the benefits of children are being criminally under played and the negatives are hyperbolic in magnitude.
Edit:
The reason the benefits are being undersold is because I do not think you can really understand when someone says the greatest feeling I have ever had is..... that includes when I fill in that blank with my son running to my car so we can start playing. Also I get to relive my childhood through my child. When I crawl in a empty box and pretend it is a submarine it does not look weird. Or when we crawl under the covers and we call it a secret cave to hide from mommy it is not weird. I can have tickle fights again.
This thread is ridiculous. I have two kids and the idea that your world ends is false. I still draft once a week. I still play d&d once a week. My wife attends collage. I am going back to grad school. I work a full time job that I like. I live close to my friends and family who I still see.
If you want to know what being a parent really is. It is a challenge. If you cannot solve simple problems like time management or budgeting then don't have kids. If you cannot get a decent paying job don't have kids (We are a single income family and I am a 5 year teacher in texas). If you cannot explain to your kids in simple terms what you want and apply punishment in a calm and consistent manner your life will be more difficult.
The only thing I have given up is cursing. Seriously. I have a three week old infant and i sleep all night long.
Also nothing that has ever brought me happiness can compare to how my kid gets sad when i leave for work and how he runs to my car door when I come home. I recently went to my first GP. I made day 2. I finished 33rd. It was my best magic moment. At the end of the day I was missing my child. I called him between rounds and we sang childish t.v. show songs. (My kid loves music)
Trust me when i say the benefits of children are being criminally under played and the negatives are hyperbolic in magnitude.
Edit:
The reason the benefits are being undersold is because I do not think you can really understand when someone says the greatest feeling I have ever had is..... that includes when I fill in that blank with my son running to my car so we can start playing. Also I get to relive my childhood through my child. When I crawl in a empty box and pretend it is a submarine it does not look weird. Or when we crawl under the covers and we call it a secret cave to hide from mommy it is not weird. I can have tickle fights again.
We are saying its a big decision, not to be taken lightly. Not that the world will end. The benefits also vary from person to person. Me personally I get exhausted whenever I have to babysit for my aunt and having kids around all the time would be a nuisance. I love kids, just not being around them all the time.
But this is not about me. This is about the OP and the possibility of this issue ending the marriage due to the contrasting feelings he and his wife have. I'll repeat, the best course of action would be marriage counseling. That individual has likely seen this issue come up more than I can count and will have far more experience to better aid you in this.
OP: I don't think you should have kids, I don't even think kids should ever have to deal with an adult so self-involved as you seem to be. I have two boys (oldest is 18), and I would not wish a father so concerned about his own comfort on even the brattiest of my kids' friends. I am just going on the bullet points in your first post (I don't get drawn into the arguments that are forbidden in the thread), so if I am wrong then it is due to the data, but that is my take.
I'm not trying to be cruel here, but you should also probably worry about your marriage. Your wife wants kids, and you have decades to grow up and decide that you want them, but her egg viability is much more limited and I can tell you from experience that if a woman's body decides it wants kids then her mind will follow. My marriage (19 years) almost fell apart when my wife wanted a third kid and I felt we needed to buckle-down with the two we had. In the end it got worked out, but a lot of that had to do with already having two kids to pour our love and energy into. It was a very difficult year or so, however. I don't know you or your wife, and I hope you have many happy years of marital bliss, but if she wants kids bad enough then it might change who she wants to spend the rest of her life with.
Or maybe those who do have kids and do regret them don't want to say it out loud, stuff like that tends to stick with people. Note the some say "it was hell" in some detail and then say "BUT, dot dot dot".
Anyway, asking for help with this sort of thing online is bound to draw a "war" between two sides, each colored by their own perceptions on the matter. The result will just be an eternal back as forth between the two sides.
If you want progress, talk to your wife first, ask about her feelings and why and then do the same yourself. Get an understanding of where the two of you are coming from. Hopefully you can resolve it with this heart to heart, as communication is the first step. If it gets nowhere then you might have to consider marriage counseling. You need a neutral party (aka not most people posting here) to help work this out. Even though you differ on this the fact that you would take that step to stay together speaks to your commitment.
On a side note, it seems to me that asking for the pros and cons is how you perform decisions in life. Look at what both sides offer and then make the decision. I think you want to let the facts speak for themselves. Thing is about kids, your mileage may vary. You're going to get a lot of different views on it because each experience is different. This is one where the pros and cons are a little gray, which may explain your difficulty.
In the end, it is your life. I just hope you choose your course of action wisely.
In this case, I think it's entirely warranted as this is an issue that has a good chance of causing damage to the relationship. More so if it's not handled properly. I'm not one who ordinarily jumps to professional help in RLA threads, but I think this case would greatly benefit from it. I'd advocate communication between the two, but I suspect that left to their own devices, the couple may not ever lay things completely on the table which is a critical mistake here. Both parties need to really understand their own motivations as well as the other's and a professional is the best way of getting that done, as far as I'm concerned.
I didn't read it that way at all, I took what he said at face value. He doesn't want kids, his wife does and she's not making a good case for it so how should he progress?
I initially responded because the OP said he doesn't want children and I wanted to impress upon him that if he's going to have kids he needs to be sure that he wants to and not just doing it to appease his wife or because he feels obligated. And also to support him if he ultimately chooses not to have kids because that is also a valid life choice that doesn't limit the fulfilment he can have.
I actually mentioned his wife a couple time, particularly in regards to how this situation has no compromise and either of them getting his or her way ultimately means the other loses out. But since the OP is the one asking for advice, he's the one most are going to focus on. Most of the advice given here would certainly be fair to his wife as well, since most people are advocating a lot of communication between them both. I don't think anyone here wants the OP to be unfair to his wife.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
You must have misread the OP. The OP is appealing to parents, and more specifically Fathers and is asking to be convinced. He wants to know "What's in it for me?"
Highlighted for clarity
So I hope you appreciate that I don't understand the rationale of posting in this thread where a potential father with some uncertainty is asking for some guidance and a sneak peak into the realm of fatherhood. When you and some other posters have only offered fears and paranoia and provided clear view against having children. Its like taking a guy who's afraid of flying, and telling him all the horrific things that can happen if he gets on a plane.
Reminder again: He is asking for Convincing to get on that plane
Are we on the same page now?
I'm sorry, I didn't read the part where he was appealing to parents and fathers.
Sure, he says he's open to it. In the same line where he says he's found himself wanting kids less and less as he gets older.
Appealing to the forum to convince him to have kids aside (which is asinine for very important reasons), I think providing counterpoints for the OP is valid. Particularly when he already has significant doubts. Reminding him that his reservations are valid and need to be addressed before pursuing this path for himself because there aren't take backs with kids and he needs to be sure that this is what he wants - that's a good thing to do, I believe.
The rationale is clear: he needs to be certain of what he wants. He says he doesn't want kids, but also that he's open to convincing. I think he needs to decide for himself which way he wants to go because he's got a lot riding on it. He has posters telling him that his reservations are unfounded and that his current feelings will be invalidated once he has a child, I (and others) are providing a counterpoint to that: that being childless is a valid choice capable of leading to fulfilling lives just as having children is capable of leading to an unfulfilled life.
Well it's taking someone who doesn't want to do something because of what he feels he'd need to do in order to pursue that path and making sure he's clear on the risks he himself has outlined.
I think if the OP is relying on this forum to convince him to have children when he's unsure and his own wife hasn't sold him on the idea, he's in some trouble.
No, probably not.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
I agree - before having a child, the OP (and anyone else reading this thread) needs to be willing to commit to the associated responsibilities. I would also agree that it's possible to live a full, satisfying, rewarding life without children.
This next is not in response to or in support of any specific poster. I'm not taking sides for or against any specific person here:
The oft-repeated phrase is, "it's different when they're your kids," and I've found this to be true in my experience. What this means for me is that while the costs of parenthood are clear from an external point of view, the benefits are not. Before I had my daughter, I knew it would be expensive in terms of money, energy and time. (In some ways, I even underestimated the investment.) But I also had no way to quantify the emotional payoff - i.e., how rewarding the experience would be.
Will everyone have this reaction? Probably not. Some people make up their mind about something and will never change it. Some people don't form emotional bonds with other human beings. If you suspect that you're one of the 'some people,' please don't have children.
Anyone reading this chain can test whether or not it was worth it to people who have had the experience of parenthood by asking them.
Be sure to ask parents who are no longer married as well - ask them whether their relationship with their child outlasted their relationship with their spouse. Ask them what they would have done differently.
I've met people who wished that they had waited to have children or had fewer children. There may be a good lesson in there. While it's possible to father and raise a child at age 16, it's a lot harder than waiting until your late 20s or early 30s. The child will also probably turn out better (at least, on average, as indicated by studies).
Finally, a couple of personal experiences:
Experience 1. I made the point once to my mother that I wished I had fewer siblings so that I would have had more attention from my parents (I was one of 6 kids). She conceded that it was similarly hard on her to raise that many kids. But then she asked me, "which one would you send back?" My answer - and her answer - was none of them. While in abstract it was less expensive not to have a child (or sibling, in my case), in specifics, each of them were worth it.
Experience 2. As I noted a few times in this thread, my wife and I had a similar discussion.
I would agree that it's very difficult to compromise on this topic. While I wanted zero and she wanted two, one was not a fair compromise. One is infinitely larger than zero, while one is only a 50% reduction from two.
Some of the things we did agree on - these are personal decisions between us, but feel free to flame away:
I'm to say this without sounding condescending. But it should have been something you learned in School. When writing a book report, usually a part of the question asks "Who is the author writing too? Who is his audience?" Let's say the thread was titled "How to make a perfect BBQ chicken?" Author or OP would be asking people who know how to BBQ chicken. By the very nature of his question "Convince me to have kids" its obvious to me that he's speaking to people who have kids, meaning Parents and specifically fathers and asking what the positive aspects of having kids.
Great, so we can agree that he is asking to be convinced, so we can FINALLY move forward from that point.
Ok, so now we have insulted the OP for asking the forum. A part of me wants to agree that its a bad idea because of the lousy advice you as a person who has no parenting experience, nor the desire to have children, and hasn't been in the position where their spouse is asking them to consider having kids. You've managed to twist the OP's questions to suit your philosophy. The Thread is TITLED "Advantage to having kids" where we have agreed that he is ASKING to be convinced.
The OP isn't a child or an idiot. He establishes in his post what his view and concerns are. The "counter points" you've made don't speak to ANY of the questions the OP is asking. "What is the Advantage of having kids?"
Here's the OP so we can remind ourselves what he is asking and his already established list of concerns.
In the OP's view he sees the downsides, he is ASKING to be shown the UPSIDE
Quite simply, You are over evaluating the quality of your advice as you are ill equipped to provide specific information on this subject. ie. first hand experience of being a parent.
I think the following quote concisely sums up the pro-kid position:
Basically, we're correct that there is a cost, but necessarily can't understand the benefit. Understood. My genuine question is, so what do we do now? It has been established that we can't know the good, yet, the decision has to be made based on this limited information anyways.
If someone came to you asking to to invest in their business, telling you that for thousands of dollars and countless hours of work you would receive a vague and unquantifiable feeling of fulfillment, any reasonable person would laugh in their face. This is, perhaps, a crass analogy, but it is exactly what's happening here.
I'm not closed off to the idea of children, I simply agree with many here that as a non-parent, I don't understand. And while I agree that it's silly for a non-parent to give parenting advice, I find it equally silly for a parent to project their sense of fulfillment unto another person. I don't know a thing about being a parent, but I know a decent amount about myself. I have no trouble believing that many people find great joy in being a parent, but knowing myself, I find it very hard to believe that I'd feel the same way.
So how would you advise me?
Option 1 - Acknowledge they I might know more about myself than you do and tell me to remain childless.
Option 2 - Tell me to have kids and let me risk not finding the same fulfillment you've found resulting in a miserable life for both myself and my child.
I don't mean this to be as snarky as it sounds because I'm genuinely curious. Like I said, I'm not completely closed off to the idea of children. The idea of having a family with adult children appeals to me down the road, and I wonder if I'll regret not having kids when I'm 60. But the thought of having defendants at any age sounds awful.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
First, standard disclaimers:
Children are an irrevocable election.
If you don’t want a child, make that decision before you have one.
To reiterate, there is a tremendous cost for having a child, in terms of money, time and energy. Captain Morgan also noted some of the potential associated stress, if that's a separate category from energy. The US Department of Agriculture study was updated for 2012, showing a 3% increase to $241K from the 2011 study. As noted previously, pay attention to everything that isn’t included in those estimates and also benchmark to your specific circumstances.
There will also be stress on your relationship with your spouse. It’s not atypical to take a year post-childbirth to figure out how to make sex work again, for example. Or you may find that there is so much focus on your child that you neglect your relationship with each other.
Also, I’m not sure about the exact details of your difficult childhood, but – for example – parents who were abused as children are more likely to abuse their children. More likely – not guaranteed, by any means – but something to be aware of so as not to repeat.
Parenthood is not an investment decision where you put in X dollars and have a reasonable expectation of receiving Y dollars back. Parenthood is more like a charity – or other altruistic endeavor: you invest your time/energy/money/knowledge and hope to find that at the end the experience was rewarding. The payoff is making a difference in someone's life, having a relationship with another human being, and the associated increase in self-reported meaning that comes with the above.
While some children provide adult care for their parents (there was a recent article on 65 year olds caring for their 85-90 year old parents) I believe it’s far more prudent to plan for retirement through a comprehensive financial plan.
While they may not self-report a higher level of “happiness,” (data on this is mixed – some studies note happiness declines, others note that happiness can increase or decrease depending on age/gender and number of children), parents do report a higher level of “meaning” in their lives.
To gauge whether that return is worth it, fortunately, there is a massive sample size of parents to draw from (~80% of Americans will have a child before age 50). I'd suggest asking as many parents as you can whether they felt the trade-off was worth it. I found the perspectives of divorced fathers illuminating – despite mixed feelings about their ex-spouses, they invariably wanted to spend more time with their children.
I’d like to expand on a couple benefits:
Children will change you. I’m thinking of this in three ways.
First, children will change your interests. You are likely to find that you would rather spend weekends taking your child to the zoo than playing MTG or watching the game. I’m not suggesting that you’ll never get to do the same things that you love doing now, just that you’re likely to find activities that bring laughs or giggles or smiles from your child far more thrilling. That’s part of forming an emotional bond with your child.
Second, the parenthood experience provides many opportunities to become a better person. (You can put that in air quotes.) Have you ever wanted to be more patient with others? Guess how one becomes better at that? That’s right, lots of exposure to irritating experiences. You’ll also get lots of opportunities to think of other people before yourself; to become more generous, more caring, more thoughtful. If you ever want an opportunity to be on the giving end of unconditional love, this is your chance.
Third, parenthood will give you a chance to experience the full gamut of human emotion from joy to terror. You’ll be alive; you'll be a full participant in life.
Parenthood is part of the human experience. Parenthood brings a common set of experiences with people of all classes/ages/walks. It provides a topic of conversation with strangers. It makes it easier to bond with other parents and form communities with other parents.
You’ll also find that there is a vast array of structures out there to support raising a child. Playdates with other parents, parent groups, recitals, school plays, etc. You’ll get to share some of the joy of being a child at Disneyland.
Finally, some ideas on maximizing potential for a happy outcome.
Make sure you and your wife are on the same page. Counseling was suggested. Continue to invest in your relationship.
You and your wife can negotiate how you will be parents in a way that works for the two of you. I shared my experiences above.
I would suggest that parenthood is a skill – one that can be taught (there are many books from the practical to the behavioral – one of my favorite in the latter category is How to Talk so your Children will Listen) and one that parents become better at with practice. I believe that if you strive to become a better parent that this will payoff through an increase in skill, as well as better outcomes for your child/children.
Parents who wait to have children tend to report better outcomes than those who have children young. In addition to emotional maturity, older parents are more likely to have financial security that may be lacking in couples just starting out.
You're making it seem as though choosing not to have kids means that you will miss out on life or not living a full one. That without kids you won't be as good a person as someone with them. It's like indirectly attacking those who don't want kids. (Just my thoughts)
Anyone can become a better person as listed above through conscious effort on their own part, and meaning in life is different based on the person (children not exactly needed). But children do FORCE you into being a better person, as someone mentioned before.
Just saying that no matter what you decide your life will not be lesser in any way, just different. Just different.
Infraction for ignoring a moderator's request --Senori
Rereading my post, I didn't say that life will be fuller or that one will become a better person by having a child. I did say that you would have a chance to become a better person and a chance to experience life fully. I will add now that I don't believe it's not the only chance (it looks like I may have stated this - to you - earlier in this thread).
My post was intended for the OP - he's in a committed relationship with a woman he loves and she wants to have a child. My message - throughout the thread - is that if he accepts ALL of the costs and responsibilities, I believe that he will find the experience to be "worth it."
While you haven't shared as much about your personal circumstances as the OP, I may not have the same message for you. From what you have shared, it appears that you 1) don't want children, and 2) are not in a committed relationship with someone who does want children. Unless there is an imminent event that will prevent you from having children permanently, I can't think of a compelling reason for you to consider having children now.
Seriously, I think kids in general can be and often are a pain in the neck but they have their redeeming qualities.
To me, 'cause I'm weird like that, kids don't mean what they do to others (e.g., cement marriage, strengthen marriage, a product of love [or intentional or unintentional love-making]). Instead, having kids allows you a world of opportunities (while, yes, also limiting or outright closing the door on others) and to more fully do things you wouldn't have thought you could do.
For women, having kids can be a life- and lifestyle-changing thing, especially if one works. In some respects, it can be quite unfortunate being a woman.
That aside, while it is questionable whether this thread is fitting for RLA, if you want kids, you will and you'll probably have kids. If you don't, don't then. To me, whether you are or feel or become cluckish is just that; there's no logic or reason behind it.
Just communicate frankly with your wife. Perhaps you alone or with your wife can see a marriage counsellor, a psychologist, a doctor, etc. There could in fact be underlying, unresolved issues here.
What you don't do is try to draw comparisons between having kids and something like investing in a business. You cannot compare having kids to any other experience in the world, it's a truly incomparable experience.
No one's projecting, we are informing. We cannot project the feeling on you, it's impossible.
Having a child is the most life changing thing you can ever do. You know yourself now, you do not know yourself as a parent. You have no idea the capacity you have for loving another person until you have kids. You're knowledge of yourself is simply incomplete.
That's a pretty loaded way to put it, isn't it?
You can't advise people to have kids. You can tell them your experiences, and let them make their minds up themselves. However, I would challenge that notion that the secret to a happy and fulfilled life is to remain selfish and inwardly focused, with your only goal being to accumulate as much currency as you can so you can spend it on temporary experiences.
In my opinion, the key to happiness is to continually grow as a person, and be outwardly focused, on helping others, being generous, and cultivating a caring, giving personality. Kids do a pretty great job of helping people do that.
I would say one of those things is FAR more likely than the other. But that's just my opinion.
Honestly, all the complaints I hear about having kids don't even apply to kids. They apply to babies. Guess what? Babies grow up. It's a rough couple years. Big deal. Going to college was longer and harder and more expensive than my sons baby years. But I still went through with it, because the benefit was worth it.
Using the "I'm no having kids" logic, getting a girlfriend seems like a really bad idea, I mean, girls cost money, they place demands on your time, they make you do things you don't want to do, why would anyone get a girlfriend? Getting married is even a worse idea, you need to spend even more time wth the girl, spend a ton of money on a wedding, and you lose 1/2 your stuff if you ever break up! Why would anyone get married?
The answer is that forming emotional relationships with other people is a worthwhile experience that offsets the financial cost, loss of freedom, and time commitment. Kids are no different, it's the same thing, just on a bigger scale on both sides of the equation.
Infraction for ignoring a moderator's request --Senori
Do you know why right now you don't want to have kids?
Because you're smart. You have a good head on your shoulders, and god I hope one day you do have kids because you'd make a great parent from this moment of clarity.
You understand that at this moment there is no feasible way for you to devote yourself to a child, that right now you don't want to emotionally give to someone that would sap your energy away leaving you frail and slowly going mad with frustration.
Kids take time, energy, and stability. To raise the next generation is a huge responsibility anyone can take part in, but few know what they're doing.
You may later in life decide to have children, but right now it's not what you want, and it's not for you.
For Women it's different, they have a certain amount of time to have a kid and then its up. But guess what, if you have a kid, it's in your wallet for life. If your wife decides to poke holes in your condom and implant herself with your sneaky swimmers it's still on you.
You can't force your wife to have an abortion, and it's also very hard (and unfortunately biased as the scummiest thing you can do) to try and legally distance yourself from a child so you don't have to pay for the kid and your wife.
Unfortunately kids are costly, if you have a line of work that is your dreamjob, stick with it, because having a kid (unless you have made your dreamjob work first) will probably end up diverting you from that path and your priority will be that kid.
It's shoddy what happens when you have a kid. I know first hand.
My mom was making 70,000$/year in Los Angeles working for a Newspaper and she married my dad when she was 23, a year later I was born. Her life has gone downhill in a winding roller coaster of despair and failure. She was a Top of her Class College Graduate at Mizzou, and now she lives off of Social Security and Welfare and her parents pay her rent. She is 47 years old.
If she had waited to have kids, she probably would have divorced my dad and grown up as a mature adult and then had kids when she could financially afford it and be in a responsible relationship with a guy. Granted I probably wouldn't have been born, but it would have saved her 20 some odd years of financial ruin, struggling, and emotional disasters.
So when you think about whether or not you're ready to have kids, think about if you're ready for your life to end. Because in all essence, it does. Your life ends and begins anew with newfound purpose, that kid, once it's born your life becomes the building blocks for his existence. Your money goes to plan for his college, first car, school supplies, food, bail-out-of-jail-money, birthdays, christmas, doctors.
Is it worth it? Maybe. Maybe.
For my mom? Well I hope to one day get her a beachfront apartment in Venice for her to just relax, but that's still a couple years off.
For you?
Really be careful if your wife is having repeated conversations like this, hide your condoms and only use those. Unfortunately you made need to consider a hard and fast ultimatum of where you will not have kids until you're ready and she may need to find someone else to fulfill her needs.
I know you're in love now, but you worked hard to get to where you are I'm sure, and no woman or child of drunkensexandneedlepokesincondoms should deter your dreams. There's thousands of Children being born elsewhere, you don't need to raise the future when it's happening without your input.
If you want to know what being a parent really is. It is a challenge. If you cannot solve simple problems like time management or budgeting then don't have kids. If you cannot get a decent paying job don't have kids (We are a single income family and I am a 5 year teacher in texas). If you cannot explain to your kids in simple terms what you want and apply punishment in a calm and consistent manner your life will be more difficult.
The only thing I have given up is cursing. Seriously. I have a three week old infant and i sleep all night long.
Also nothing that has ever brought me happiness can compare to how my kid gets sad when i leave for work and how he runs to my car door when I come home. I recently went to my first GP. I made day 2. I finished 33rd. It was my best magic moment. At the end of the day I was missing my child. I called him between rounds and we sang childish t.v. show songs. (My kid loves music)
Trust me when i say the benefits of children are being criminally under played and the negatives are hyperbolic in magnitude.
Edit:
The reason the benefits are being undersold is because I do not think you can really understand when someone says the greatest feeling I have ever had is..... that includes when I fill in that blank with my son running to my car so we can start playing. Also I get to relive my childhood through my child. When I crawl in a empty box and pretend it is a submarine it does not look weird. Or when we crawl under the covers and we call it a secret cave to hide from mommy it is not weird. I can have tickle fights again.
We are saying its a big decision, not to be taken lightly. Not that the world will end. The benefits also vary from person to person. Me personally I get exhausted whenever I have to babysit for my aunt and having kids around all the time would be a nuisance. I love kids, just not being around them all the time.
But this is not about me. This is about the OP and the possibility of this issue ending the marriage due to the contrasting feelings he and his wife have. I'll repeat, the best course of action would be marriage counseling. That individual has likely seen this issue come up more than I can count and will have far more experience to better aid you in this.
I'm not trying to be cruel here, but you should also probably worry about your marriage. Your wife wants kids, and you have decades to grow up and decide that you want them, but her egg viability is much more limited and I can tell you from experience that if a woman's body decides it wants kids then her mind will follow. My marriage (19 years) almost fell apart when my wife wanted a third kid and I felt we needed to buckle-down with the two we had. In the end it got worked out, but a lot of that had to do with already having two kids to pour our love and energy into. It was a very difficult year or so, however. I don't know you or your wife, and I hope you have many happy years of marital bliss, but if she wants kids bad enough then it might change who she wants to spend the rest of her life with.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath