Long story short: I've recently decided that I can no longer identify as a Christian and I've essentially 'gone public' with it.
The problem is that this revelation comes at a very inopportune time: I now have a four month old child. Now, he's not old enough yet, but when the time comes, naturally, I want to be open about my beliefs with my son. I'm not opposed to him being exposed to Christianity. I don't plan to tell him I know I'm right because frankly, I don't. My wife is not so open minded; neither is much of my family, to be honest. At this point, two things have become apparent to me about the future.
First is that my family will see it as defense of the child to telling him I'm wrong. I understand why, of course, being that I was from that faith. It's just that, well, he's my son. I can't have my entire family telling him I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about.
Second is that, more than just with my son, they've taken it up as a mission to re-convert me. It's not entirely apparent to them right now, but I do not see that happening. I don't know what's going to happen as that becomes more and more clear.
I'm really not sure what I can do here and I'm starting to feel like an enemy, even in my own home.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
I can't have my entire family telling him I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about.
Apologies for the glibness, but: why not?
Their religion has a requirement (essentially; I'm paraphrasing) to proselytize, while yours does not. The stakes for them are higher than they are for you. The costs they see in their cost/benefit analytic are higher than the ones you see. I don't think you would want to play tug of war with your son's religion with your family. Ultimately, it will be his choice and responsibility.
90% of protestants follow their parent's religion, but that also means that 10% won't. It seems certain at this point in time that your son won't be able to follow both his of his parents' views. That is just the way it is - I don't know that you need to do (or can) anything about it.
One more point on this - while growing up, I observed my father (who is a better man than I) taking responsibility/blame for MANY things that weren't his fault. He modeled humility to me. Even though I was young, I was not so naive that I couldn't see reality. Your son will love and respect you, even if your family take the occasional potshot at your religious election.
Second is that, more than just with my son, they've taken it up as a mission to re-convert me. It's not entirely apparent to them right now, but I do not see that happening. I don't know what's going to happen as that becomes more and more clear.
I'm really not sure what I can do here and I'm starting to feel like an enemy, even in my own home.
Folks tend to object more to opposing views that are right in their face, and forget about opposing views that aren't right in their face. I believe your family will come to accept you (though you may carry with you a few stories/scars from the times they failed to do so) if you allow them to move past the religion differences.
Like I said, I don't mind him being exposed and preached to about Christianity. I expect it. Just consider the difference between these two statements:
"We don't believe what your daddy believes." - "You can't believe your daddy."
The latter is what I cannot abide. It's going to undermine my ability to be a parent.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
That is a rough situation. Honestly, you should never 'come out' as no longer believing in the same faith as your family. Religious indoctrination is strong and if you actively identify yourself as a non-believer, you become an outsider to the tribal mentality, despite you not having changed as a person.
Depending on how you 'came out' (sorry, there isn't a better way to phrase it that I can think of), they may just be shocked or take it as an affront.
My real concern here is your wife. Can you elaborate on your living situation? If it's the two of you, I'd recommend having a real talk with her. If the rest of your family is there as well, take her out somewhere and have a real talk with her about how you feel and why you feel that way, and hopefully she will understand.
I have to tell you though, a close friend of mine just broke up with his long-term girlfriend because of this very issue. She wanted their (potential) kids to go to church every week, along with bible study, youth groups, jesus camp, etc. He's agnostic and felt like he'd never get to see his kids, and on top of that she told him he wasn't allowed to share his view on religion with the kids unless specifically asked.
That kind of religious tension can cause a lot of strain on a relationship, so you should talk to your wife about those issues right now. Coming to an understanding with your wife is job number one.
I'm not sure what else to recommend to your without knowing more about your specific situation.
That is a rough situation. Honestly, you should never 'come out' as no longer believing in the same faith as your family. Religious indoctrination is strong and if you actively identify yourself as a non-believer, you become an outsider to the tribal mentality, despite you not having changed as a person.
It couldn't be helped; everyone started to worry about me a few months ago when I was asking faith related questions and the most common answer was either "you're over thinking things" or "you just need faith." I only got upset at those kind of answers and it showed.
Honestly, I think it's better they find out now than when my son starts asking me questions and I give him honest answers.
Depending on how you 'came out' (sorry, there isn't a better way to phrase it that I can think of), they may just be shocked or take it as an affront.
So far it's just my wife and brother that know, but I expect it to spread like wildfire. My brother will tell my mom, and right after that every one of my aunts, uncles, and grandparents will know.
My wife's reaction was mostly shock. The problem is she's already overwhelmed right now. We just had the kid four months ago, and two months after that her father passed away, leaving behind a business. The business has been sold, but there are still some details to iron out. Basically, what I got out of her is that she's extremely uncomfortable with my beliefs and that she feels she has to protect our son from these beliefs. Outside of that, she doesn't really want to even talk about it.
She told my brother. He took it more as an affront. In his words, "it is my personal mission to bring you back" and "for every minute you spend trying to convince your son that you're right, I'll spend five telling him you're wrong." My brother is one of the more level headed of my family. I'm already terrified of what other reactions will be.
My real concern here is your wife. Can you elaborate on your living situation? If it's the two of you, I'd recommend having a real talk with her. If the rest of your family is there as well, take her out somewhere and have a real talk with her about how you feel and why you feel that way, and hopefully she will understand.
I have to tell you though, a close friend of mine just broke up with his long-term girlfriend because of this very issue. She wanted their (potential) kids to go to church every week, along with bible study, youth groups, jesus camp, etc. He's agnostic and felt like he'd never get to see his kids, and on top of that she told him he wasn't allowed to share his view on religion with the kids unless specifically asked.
I agree that the main concern is my wife. Like I said, she doesn't even want to talk about things right now. I'm afraid to push the issue because it'll put her just that much more on the defensive. I am worried our relationship won't survive this.
My wife and I live by ourselves. My extended family is all very close. Her extended family is half in Jersey and half in Texas. My biggest fear is that she sees the need to "protect" her child as more important than anything else and she flees to her extended family in an attempt to keep me away from our son.
What do you want to come out of this situation with your family Dechs? Like what are you looking for in a resolution to the situation?
All I need out of this situation is my wife to respect my beliefs and be ok with me being open about them with our son.
What I want is for my whole family to be respectful and open minded too. I feel like that's unreasonable, though. As long as my wife stands with me I'll be alright.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
What I want is for my whole family to be respectful and open minded too. I feel like that's unreasonable, though. As long as my wife stands with me I'll be alright.
Is this your first big crisis as a family with her? I mean if you've said that the child's going to be raised Christian, and you guys have a good crisis relationship then she won't divorce you. If you haven't established that and the extended relatives become meddlesome then your life is over with her as she'll overreact and divorce if you become confrontational.
Be firm in your beliefs, allay her worst fears by ceding certain decisions to her until the child is ready to make up their own mind about religion, which seems to be sort of your current strategy. Frankly, talk to some interfaith marriages in person. Get rid of the influence that the extended family has on the situation, and network with another Christian who has children and is married to a Jew or Muslim or atheist or something in how they dealt with it. There's got to be someone in the church or something that's married to someone or something in the area that can talk to you and her.
*NEW BABY* *FEAR* *MUST PROTECT*
That's a strong signal to fight. Some women have this idea in their head about how their family is going to go. Let me tell you something my father in law told me, "These girls today are bred and raised on certain fantasies. Then you see their little dreams shattered to pieces. They pick those pieces, ***** about it for a while, dump it in the trash. Then go on and raise their families. That's when you know you married a real woman. Reality's scary and messy."
You brought this issue at the worst possible time, had she had an established track record of her having her little Christian child going off to Sunday school and the like and seen it in reality. Then you'd have a different talk, because things were already established. She's trying to establish her dreams about what her Christian family should look like.
There's some passages in the Bible about interfaith marriages. When she's calm enough to talk, you'd best remind her of what those passages say. Again, speak to people who have experienced these troubles in person and have her talk openly with a Christian in an interfaith marriage that's successful. It helps to allay fears when people are scared to hell and back. Emphasize that you respect her choices, and have been faithful and truthful in the marriage.
But one thing, there are certain things to discuss with extended relatives. There are certain things not to. I had a snippy confrontation with one of my sisters in laws about my kids, my only retort was, "They know more about Christian history and the Bible and other religions in part because I made them question their beliefs." I called the my daughter up and my niece together, I asked them a few questions about Christianity and ect. My daughter knew the answers, my niece was stumped. It was the last time my sister in law ever questioned my authority as a father concerning religion. I gave my niece a few good history books about Christianity, a daily devotional for Christmas plus the usual toy. Her mother was livid, told me later, "You don't let things go do you?" My only response was, "I take education seriously, Cheryl, stop being scared and make them learn about their culture. Stop being lazy, make things interesting, and they'll become more devout on their own. Christianity has a huge intellectual legacy."
Faith becomes stronger when you question it, in either direction. The rest is having a loving relationship. All else is a soulish game for power.
It couldn't be helped; everyone started to worry about me a few months ago when I was asking faith related questions and the most common answer was either "you're over thinking things" or "you just need faith." I only got upset at those kind of answers and it showed.
Just out of curiosity, what questions did you ask?
Because, fundamentally speaking, all religions are faith-based and that does mean placing your trust in something that probably doesn't have an answer.
If I were you, I would convince your family members that you will not spend your time convincing your son that Christianity is wrong.
Nor should you be convincing him that. You should be leaving it to him and letting them come to an answer himself.
As a child I was raised by Christian parents that did not teach me their faith. They taught me to try and be open minded, caring, understanding, and studious. I think if you try to teach your child to be a good person and spend time with them, helping them experience the world and the things that are beautiful in it, you will have done your best as a parent.
It seems you may be worried that your family will pull too hard and in essence 'brainwash' your child into a person who can't see a life without faith. You obviously don't want your child influenced so heavily in either direction, but that is something we all have to deal with. In my own experience, my family never tried to pull me towards Christianity, but I was harassed as a young boy for not having accepted a religion by other children in my community (I come from a small mid-western town that is compromised of a factory district, homes, and then churches and bars). Your child at some point will have forces pulling him one way or the other.
I think with something as complicated as raising a child, in this situation, all you can do is teach your child how best to evaluate the world around him and hopefully he will make the decision he can truly say is best for him. Equip him with the tools to face the world and let 'em fly.
Dechs, I guess my only real answer is that it is really going to depend on your wife and how reasonable a human being she is.
To be fair - she went into your marriage and having children with you believing you shared her faith. Keep that in mind when you are talking about this with her, because she could easily be feeling betrayed.
The rest of your family isn't going to matter much. How often did you take your grandparent's opinion's seriously? The only people I listened to were my parents, and I always checked up with my parents after hearing something from them to make sure I should believe it. So it's really only your wife that is a concern, in my opinion. My family believes in some crazy things and I frequently think my mother and sister have some level of undiagnosed schizophrenia (they believed my 2 year old niece was communicating with my dead grandfather's ghost), but I'm really not worried about that affect my (future) children.
All I need out of this situation is my wife to respect my beliefs and be ok with me being open about them with our son.
What I want is for my whole family to be respectful and open minded too. I feel like that's unreasonable, though. As long as my wife stands with me I'll be alright.
Don't just spring a discussion about this on your wife out of the blue. Tell her you'd like to set aside some time on Saturday evening (or whenever is good for you two) to talk about your thoughts on your child and his religious upbringing. If she reacts strongly to this and tries to engage in discussion (or "there's nothing to discuss") say "I'd just like to sit down and talk about this, let's save that for (whenever you decided)." Having a predetermined time means it isn't going to be sprung on her out-of-the-blue which results in emotional, poorly-thought-out reactions. (I suspect this is what happened with your brother as well).
So when the time comes to talk, make it clear to your wife from the get go what you said you need out of the situation: 'her to respect my beliefs and be ok with me being open about them with our son.' Help her understand that you aren't concerned with indoctrinating your son to your position, and that you don't particularly care whether or not he believes what you do. Let her know that you just don't want to have to lie to him and hide it from him. I don't know, maybe to help her understand you could ask her to imagine the audacity of you trying to suggest the opposite situation: not letting her or her family even acknowledge that they are Christians and asking them to hide the fact that they believe in God. The most fair resolution, I think, would be for both parents to be allowed to be open and honest with the child about what they believe and why.
And I think you can also turn Faith's greatest strength against itself here too. If your wife and family truly believe in a great God who loves both you and your child, He will see to it that both of you come to the understand the Truth. Help your wife to have faith in God to show your son the truth of the matter, and help you find your way back into the fold too. As former Christians, both you and I know that submitting to the will of God and having faith in Him through a difficult situation is part of a Christian's life. Use this to your advantage. A Christian just has to recognize that it's out of their hands and trust that God will do what it takes to guide you and your son on the proper course. Maybe arrange a talk with your brother too.
Yes, you'll have to tolerate occasional proselytizing and/or apologetics from your family, but that's just how it goes being in a minority religious position in a social circle. Just explain to them why you don't buy into what they're saying, and don't go on the attack. Oh and don't expect the situation to be fully resolved after the talk. Let them have some time afterwards to process the discussion.
If you manage the situation properly Dechs, the worst time of this for you is right now because it's so new to everyone. Over time it will simply become accepted as part of who you are (hopefully).
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"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love." --Carl Sagan
I'll just echo that last piece, that it will get better over time.
My mother and father were in their early twenties when I was born, both religious, while my grandparents who had a larger hand in raising me during that time were very much not. During that time, I really didn't know which was which. As a small child I suppose I only cared about issues of fundamental safety and security. My grandfather is/was a gentle man who taught me respect for animals, while my grandmother was a very intelligent, driven women. That was all I could really see. I was 8-9'ish and had essentially forgotten my early childhood by the time I even noticed their religious beliefs. The family dynamic was entirely different by that time.
So essentially, I don't think this will be an issue that affects the development of your child provided that the adults don't make it into one. And when he does reach that age 7-9 developmental stage he'll be very firmly in your corner and your wife's corner about everything, without sensing any conflict between the two at all. That environment naturally will tend to prevent all of the other'izing that happens in religion, up to an age where he's an adolescent and forming his own identity.
I think the real danger would be the marriage and mutual expectations. On the one side, yeah, she wants what she wants. But the good news is that the whole body of Christian religion that she's leaning on will be the very thing to tell her to stay married. Most Christian leaders will give the advice to remain married through conflicts of faith, and there's Biblical support for that. One course I would consider taking is to come clean with the local leader about your change of faith and express your concerns for your marriage. You can gauge their opinions on the issue of interfaith marriages during that conversation. But the local leader is really likely to be receptive to you if you show interest in the organization on the point of it being able to mediate marriage conflicts, and just serve as a community center in general. Congregation leaders really value their ability to pull communities together like that, and Christianity is very authoritarian and likely to take his lead. This course of action will likely to lead to an private appointment with your local leader where he will express to your wife his views on interfaith marriages and reinforce her commitment to you. The potential for conflict will be even lower still if you can continue to attend services. I remember a lot of men who were fathers of religious families in my parents' congregation. They attended regularly, but I later found out the reason they weren't participating in ceremonies was because they didn't believe in them. As a kid, I never would have known.
Of course, that all depends on you and whether you want to keep religion out of your life. A marriage between a non-believer and a religious person can be worked out. But a marriage between a religious person and one who is just as strongly committed not to have religion is an entirely different dynamic, and only one person can win that. It doesn't sound like you want to fight that battle, so don't make the mistake of thinking that you have to.
If there's a light at the end of the tunnel, it's that each of your personal beliefs and your entire relationship dynamic in general is prone to have changed drastically going 10 or more years into the future. I remember when I was in my 20's it seemed like everything was bound to stay the same, but at 30, honestly everything is different. Religion really doesn't rank that high on the list of human needs, and so living in a stable environment for all that time carries a lot more weight. It won't be some chronically recurring conflict after everyone concerned has a chance to get used to it.
Asserting your independence and having integrity is pretty stock standard, even in adulthood and after 'settling down', but you may want to ensure that you and things you've built up, such as this marriage of yours, can survive before doing it.
To that end, you might want to consider counseling for yourself to work out a 'strategy' on how to remedy this or, perhaps more productively, counseling for the both of you.
People invariably change, and that includes loss of faith, which shouldn't be some epic watershed event for reasonable people. You have to remember and hold onto the fact that you love each other, for better or for worse, unconditionally, and you believe in whatever you've got and working things out.
I'm still not on the same page as to what you have done and when. You've gone public and your wife knows. Correct?
Just throwing this out there but... what would be wrong with just not believing but participating? Clearly growing up in a religious home does not prevent someone from becoming a non-believer. It seems to me that it would be much easier to raise your child in religion (as your family would want) but also teach your child to think critically... then let them come to their own conclusion. I grew up christian but I never even considered asking my parents what they believe and why... We just went to Church some Sundays... more often when I got confirmed and that was that. I know my parents go to church sometimes but not often. But, that doesnt make me have any desire to question their beliefs "if you believe why dont you go?"...
idk... seems to me that as a non-believer it shouldnt be a huge deal for you to just play along. A much harder stance to reconcile would be a couple where the beliefs are different (A Jew and Christian, or a Buddhist and a Muslim for example).
idk... seems to me that as a non-believer it shouldnt be a huge deal for you to just play along. A much harder stance to reconcile would be a couple where the beliefs are different (A Jew and Christian, or a Buddhist and a Muslim for example).
Fluffy - are you religious?
The reason why I ask is because asking a non-believer to participate in Christian religious activities is just like asking anyone else to participate in something they don't believe in.
The reason why I ask is because asking a non-believer to participate in Christian religious activities is just like asking anyone else to participate in something they don't believe in.
The reason why I ask is because asking a non-believer to participate in Christian religious activities is just like asking anyone else to participate in something they don't believe in.
Same form of question - Jay, are you married?
I participate in things I don't believe in all the time due to being married. Wife asks me to go shopping to find a "cute" pair of jeans, I don't believe in that, but I participate. I watch football, she doesn't believe in that, but she cheers anyway.
There is the kind of non-religious person who holds religion to be about as arbitrary and unimportant as any of those things. And on the other hand, there's the kind of non-religious person whose non-religious stance becomes a valued part of their identity and a high personal priority in itself. If someone's the first, there's no problem further than just being annoyed by having to leave the house on Sunday. If the second, then it's a tug-of-war where someone has to give.
Yes. And, for reference, my wife and I are different religions, and we've already worked out the issues on how the kids are to be raised regarding religious belief.
I participate in things I don't believe in all the time due to being married. Wife asks me to go shopping to find a "cute" pair of jeans, I don't believe in that, but I participate. I watch football, she doesn't believe in that, but she cheers anyway.
There is the kind of non-religious person who holds religion to be about as arbitrary and unimportant as any of those things. And on the other hand, there's the kind of non-religious person whose non-religious stance becomes a valued part of their identity and a high personal priority in itself. If someone's the first, there's no problem further than just being annoyed by having to leave the house on Sunday. If the second, then it's a tug-of-war where someone has to give.
Participating in indoctrinating your child into a religious belief you don't share can hardly being considered the same as giving up a Saturday afternoon to go shopping with your wife.
If it was just Dechs' time, that'd be one thing. I agree there should always be sacrifices for the other person (I've attended the Hindu temple whenever my wife has gone - but Hinduism is fundamentally different than Christianity, it's not a proseltyzing religion and doesn't encourage or require the conversion of non-believers), the problem here is the kid. Pretending to be Christian, in my opinion, would send the wrong message to his son.
My buddy just broke up with his long-term girlfriend over just this issue. When it comes to religion, it quickly becomes 'my way or the highway' when raising kids, and an atheist or agnostic parent can be shut out of raising their kids because of it. Dechs needs to work out for himself (with his wife) where the line falls between their beliefs and how to approach raising the child.
@Magickware99 - Up until I got married in a Hindu ceremony, I did exactly as you describe, and played along as much as I could stand. My wife and I have agreed to raise the kids to learn about Hinduism and Christianity, but only as something that a lot of people believe in and not present it to them as facts. That's my only issue with 'faking it' - he can't protect his son from indoctrination effectively if he's going along with it.
Well, I suppose it's fair to ask Dechs the question whether preventing indoctrination of his son is one of his goals here. From the statements he made on the first page, it doesn't seem to me that it is. The assumption that it is or should be is all too common by this side of interfaith conflicts, and that can even lead to an atheist/agnostic concluding that they have a duty to go against religion. All I'm saying is that, generally, it isn't always the case that the non-religious parent will hold that as a goal. Yeah, it is different than a shopping trip, but the commitment against religion shouldn't be automatically attributed to a non-religious person every time.
Because if preventing religious indoctrination is the goal of one spouse and advancing that indoctrination is the goal of another, then that's the definition of parenting at cross-purposes, and it would be a volatile situation that is bound to blow up at some point. One or both sides has to compromise.
The reason why I ask is because asking a non-believer to participate in Christian religious activities is just like asking anyone else to participate in something they don't believe in.
No, I was raised Methodist but I would consider myself to be... agnostic? I really just dont care. My wife is Lutheran, we got married in a Lutheran church, when we have kids they will go to Sunday school and get confirmed.
My reasoning is very simple. Kids should have the choice in what they believe but if they do not go to church they are not going to learn about it. I find that it is much easier to be raised in a religious setting and choose between religion(any religion) and atheism than it is to be raised with no religion and then decide to become religious.
Out of curiosity, what exactly about Christianity has caused you to change your beliefs so drastically?
I myself am not a Christian. I've identified as agnostic for many years. But if I had to pick a Christian church to belong to, it'd be the United Church of Christ. The advocate the teachings of Jesus over the teachings of mainstream Christianity. I.e. Love, Acceptance, Humility, etc rather than judgment, condemnation, and the bible as infaliable. And they take it pretty seriously, there are a number of openly-gay pastors and members of the church nationwide. When I was of the age to get confirmed at the church, I talked to the pastor about my doubts, how I didn't believe in an active god or the bible or the divinity of Jesus, and he assured me that I could belong anyways because I had the traits that really mattered - love, compassion, generosity, etc.
I dunno, it's just some food for thought. If you can't stand being a member of Christianity, maybe you'll find some specific sects more amenable. It could be a nice compromise, and lessen the risk of marital strife. You might even get your family to back off.
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Like I said, I don't mind him being exposed and preached to about Christianity. I expect it. Just consider the difference between these two statements:
"We don't believe what your daddy believes." - "You can't believe your daddy."
The latter is what I cannot abide. It's going to undermine my ability to be a parent.
Apologies for the delayed response.
Yes, I certainly see the difference between these two statements. I do believe that your child - while young - likely inherited some of your ability to evaluate and objectively weigh ideas. Even if you encounter the latter (and it appears to be a purely hypothetical - if perhaps likely - scenario), I do believe your child will see through it.
@Magickware99 - Up until I got married in a Hindu ceremony, I did exactly as you describe, and played along as much as I could stand. My wife and I have agreed to raise the kids to learn about Hinduism and Christianity, but only as something that a lot of people believe in and not present it to them as facts. That's my only issue with 'faking it' - he can't protect his son from indoctrination effectively if he's going along with it.
Well, that's the thing. We're already indoctrinated on so many things, why does this have to be such a deal-breaker?
This is a huge deal, especially given that the OP's wife and his extended family seems to be fairly religious. It's more a matter of whether you're willing to keep the family together, or stick to your principles and let it dissolve.
It's more a matter of whether you're willing to keep the family together, or stick to your principles and let it dissolve.
That's true. Honestly, I think I'd end up being so annoyed with it all the time I'm not sure I could 'pretend', and religion, politics and incompatibility in bed that (to my knowledge) tend to be the biggest sticking points in relationships (besides money). I really hope Dechs and his wife work it, out, I'm just coming from the point of view of having to console a friend who had a less than reasonable person on the other end. Because it's not just about the religion thing, it's about having say in your kid's life.
Indoctrination is probably a bad word to use, since it's so loaded. I would say my concern is far more about the father being able to openly express his views to his children, even if you take religion out of it.
Like someone else mentioned earlier in this thread though; for Christians it's literally a matter of eternal suffering or happiness.
They feel that there's a heck of a lot at stake. I personally do not- I know a good number of Christians who take their faith as more of a moral compass and something that is rather regularly questioned. I do not think this is the case for Dech Kaison's family and wife, but it is quite possible to raise someone in a Christian household and have them not be a zealot, as people seem to fear..
And, yes, indoctrination is the wrong word to use. If you think about it, there are so many crap that we just take for granted and as pure truth (the hideous food pyramid of the 70-90s is one obvious example, the supposed infallibility of the U.S. Constitution is another here in the U.S.). Yet, those are just considered normal stuff, while religious bullheadedness and strong belief is indoctrination? Do you see the bias there?
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The problem is that this revelation comes at a very inopportune time: I now have a four month old child. Now, he's not old enough yet, but when the time comes, naturally, I want to be open about my beliefs with my son. I'm not opposed to him being exposed to Christianity. I don't plan to tell him I know I'm right because frankly, I don't. My wife is not so open minded; neither is much of my family, to be honest. At this point, two things have become apparent to me about the future.
First is that my family will see it as defense of the child to telling him I'm wrong. I understand why, of course, being that I was from that faith. It's just that, well, he's my son. I can't have my entire family telling him I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about.
Second is that, more than just with my son, they've taken it up as a mission to re-convert me. It's not entirely apparent to them right now, but I do not see that happening. I don't know what's going to happen as that becomes more and more clear.
I'm really not sure what I can do here and I'm starting to feel like an enemy, even in my own home.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Their religion has a requirement (essentially; I'm paraphrasing) to proselytize, while yours does not. The stakes for them are higher than they are for you. The costs they see in their cost/benefit analytic are higher than the ones you see. I don't think you would want to play tug of war with your son's religion with your family. Ultimately, it will be his choice and responsibility.
90% of protestants follow their parent's religion, but that also means that 10% won't. It seems certain at this point in time that your son won't be able to follow both his of his parents' views. That is just the way it is - I don't know that you need to do (or can) anything about it.
One more point on this - while growing up, I observed my father (who is a better man than I) taking responsibility/blame for MANY things that weren't his fault. He modeled humility to me. Even though I was young, I was not so naive that I couldn't see reality. Your son will love and respect you, even if your family take the occasional potshot at your religious election.
Folks tend to object more to opposing views that are right in their face, and forget about opposing views that aren't right in their face. I believe your family will come to accept you (though you may carry with you a few stories/scars from the times they failed to do so) if you allow them to move past the religion differences.
Like I said, I don't mind him being exposed and preached to about Christianity. I expect it. Just consider the difference between these two statements:
"We don't believe what your daddy believes." - "You can't believe your daddy."
The latter is what I cannot abide. It's going to undermine my ability to be a parent.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Depending on how you 'came out' (sorry, there isn't a better way to phrase it that I can think of), they may just be shocked or take it as an affront.
My real concern here is your wife. Can you elaborate on your living situation? If it's the two of you, I'd recommend having a real talk with her. If the rest of your family is there as well, take her out somewhere and have a real talk with her about how you feel and why you feel that way, and hopefully she will understand.
I have to tell you though, a close friend of mine just broke up with his long-term girlfriend because of this very issue. She wanted their (potential) kids to go to church every week, along with bible study, youth groups, jesus camp, etc. He's agnostic and felt like he'd never get to see his kids, and on top of that she told him he wasn't allowed to share his view on religion with the kids unless specifically asked.
That kind of religious tension can cause a lot of strain on a relationship, so you should talk to your wife about those issues right now. Coming to an understanding with your wife is job number one.
I'm not sure what else to recommend to your without knowing more about your specific situation.
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What do you want to come out of this situation with your family Dechs? Like what are you looking for in a resolution to the situation?
It couldn't be helped; everyone started to worry about me a few months ago when I was asking faith related questions and the most common answer was either "you're over thinking things" or "you just need faith." I only got upset at those kind of answers and it showed.
Honestly, I think it's better they find out now than when my son starts asking me questions and I give him honest answers.
So far it's just my wife and brother that know, but I expect it to spread like wildfire. My brother will tell my mom, and right after that every one of my aunts, uncles, and grandparents will know.
My wife's reaction was mostly shock. The problem is she's already overwhelmed right now. We just had the kid four months ago, and two months after that her father passed away, leaving behind a business. The business has been sold, but there are still some details to iron out. Basically, what I got out of her is that she's extremely uncomfortable with my beliefs and that she feels she has to protect our son from these beliefs. Outside of that, she doesn't really want to even talk about it.
She told my brother. He took it more as an affront. In his words, "it is my personal mission to bring you back" and "for every minute you spend trying to convince your son that you're right, I'll spend five telling him you're wrong." My brother is one of the more level headed of my family. I'm already terrified of what other reactions will be.
I agree that the main concern is my wife. Like I said, she doesn't even want to talk about things right now. I'm afraid to push the issue because it'll put her just that much more on the defensive. I am worried our relationship won't survive this.
My wife and I live by ourselves. My extended family is all very close. Her extended family is half in Jersey and half in Texas. My biggest fear is that she sees the need to "protect" her child as more important than anything else and she flees to her extended family in an attempt to keep me away from our son.
All I need out of this situation is my wife to respect my beliefs and be ok with me being open about them with our son.
What I want is for my whole family to be respectful and open minded too. I feel like that's unreasonable, though. As long as my wife stands with me I'll be alright.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Is this your first big crisis as a family with her? I mean if you've said that the child's going to be raised Christian, and you guys have a good crisis relationship then she won't divorce you. If you haven't established that and the extended relatives become meddlesome then your life is over with her as she'll overreact and divorce if you become confrontational.
Be firm in your beliefs, allay her worst fears by ceding certain decisions to her until the child is ready to make up their own mind about religion, which seems to be sort of your current strategy. Frankly, talk to some interfaith marriages in person. Get rid of the influence that the extended family has on the situation, and network with another Christian who has children and is married to a Jew or Muslim or atheist or something in how they dealt with it. There's got to be someone in the church or something that's married to someone or something in the area that can talk to you and her.
*NEW BABY* *FEAR* *MUST PROTECT*
That's a strong signal to fight. Some women have this idea in their head about how their family is going to go. Let me tell you something my father in law told me, "These girls today are bred and raised on certain fantasies. Then you see their little dreams shattered to pieces. They pick those pieces, ***** about it for a while, dump it in the trash. Then go on and raise their families. That's when you know you married a real woman. Reality's scary and messy."
You brought this issue at the worst possible time, had she had an established track record of her having her little Christian child going off to Sunday school and the like and seen it in reality. Then you'd have a different talk, because things were already established. She's trying to establish her dreams about what her Christian family should look like.
There's some passages in the Bible about interfaith marriages. When she's calm enough to talk, you'd best remind her of what those passages say. Again, speak to people who have experienced these troubles in person and have her talk openly with a Christian in an interfaith marriage that's successful. It helps to allay fears when people are scared to hell and back. Emphasize that you respect her choices, and have been faithful and truthful in the marriage.
But one thing, there are certain things to discuss with extended relatives. There are certain things not to. I had a snippy confrontation with one of my sisters in laws about my kids, my only retort was, "They know more about Christian history and the Bible and other religions in part because I made them question their beliefs." I called the my daughter up and my niece together, I asked them a few questions about Christianity and ect. My daughter knew the answers, my niece was stumped. It was the last time my sister in law ever questioned my authority as a father concerning religion. I gave my niece a few good history books about Christianity, a daily devotional for Christmas plus the usual toy. Her mother was livid, told me later, "You don't let things go do you?" My only response was, "I take education seriously, Cheryl, stop being scared and make them learn about their culture. Stop being lazy, make things interesting, and they'll become more devout on their own. Christianity has a huge intellectual legacy."
Faith becomes stronger when you question it, in either direction. The rest is having a loving relationship. All else is a soulish game for power.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Just out of curiosity, what questions did you ask?
Because, fundamentally speaking, all religions are faith-based and that does mean placing your trust in something that probably doesn't have an answer.
If I were you, I would convince your family members that you will not spend your time convincing your son that Christianity is wrong.
Nor should you be convincing him that. You should be leaving it to him and letting them come to an answer himself.
It seems you may be worried that your family will pull too hard and in essence 'brainwash' your child into a person who can't see a life without faith. You obviously don't want your child influenced so heavily in either direction, but that is something we all have to deal with. In my own experience, my family never tried to pull me towards Christianity, but I was harassed as a young boy for not having accepted a religion by other children in my community (I come from a small mid-western town that is compromised of a factory district, homes, and then churches and bars). Your child at some point will have forces pulling him one way or the other.
I think with something as complicated as raising a child, in this situation, all you can do is teach your child how best to evaluate the world around him and hopefully he will make the decision he can truly say is best for him. Equip him with the tools to face the world and let 'em fly.
To be fair - she went into your marriage and having children with you believing you shared her faith. Keep that in mind when you are talking about this with her, because she could easily be feeling betrayed.
The rest of your family isn't going to matter much. How often did you take your grandparent's opinion's seriously? The only people I listened to were my parents, and I always checked up with my parents after hearing something from them to make sure I should believe it. So it's really only your wife that is a concern, in my opinion. My family believes in some crazy things and I frequently think my mother and sister have some level of undiagnosed schizophrenia (they believed my 2 year old niece was communicating with my dead grandfather's ghost), but I'm really not worried about that affect my (future) children.
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Don't just spring a discussion about this on your wife out of the blue. Tell her you'd like to set aside some time on Saturday evening (or whenever is good for you two) to talk about your thoughts on your child and his religious upbringing. If she reacts strongly to this and tries to engage in discussion (or "there's nothing to discuss") say "I'd just like to sit down and talk about this, let's save that for (whenever you decided)." Having a predetermined time means it isn't going to be sprung on her out-of-the-blue which results in emotional, poorly-thought-out reactions. (I suspect this is what happened with your brother as well).
So when the time comes to talk, make it clear to your wife from the get go what you said you need out of the situation: 'her to respect my beliefs and be ok with me being open about them with our son.' Help her understand that you aren't concerned with indoctrinating your son to your position, and that you don't particularly care whether or not he believes what you do. Let her know that you just don't want to have to lie to him and hide it from him. I don't know, maybe to help her understand you could ask her to imagine the audacity of you trying to suggest the opposite situation: not letting her or her family even acknowledge that they are Christians and asking them to hide the fact that they believe in God. The most fair resolution, I think, would be for both parents to be allowed to be open and honest with the child about what they believe and why.
And I think you can also turn Faith's greatest strength against itself here too. If your wife and family truly believe in a great God who loves both you and your child, He will see to it that both of you come to the understand the Truth. Help your wife to have faith in God to show your son the truth of the matter, and help you find your way back into the fold too. As former Christians, both you and I know that submitting to the will of God and having faith in Him through a difficult situation is part of a Christian's life. Use this to your advantage. A Christian just has to recognize that it's out of their hands and trust that God will do what it takes to guide you and your son on the proper course. Maybe arrange a talk with your brother too.
Yes, you'll have to tolerate occasional proselytizing and/or apologetics from your family, but that's just how it goes being in a minority religious position in a social circle. Just explain to them why you don't buy into what they're saying, and don't go on the attack. Oh and don't expect the situation to be fully resolved after the talk. Let them have some time afterwards to process the discussion.
If you manage the situation properly Dechs, the worst time of this for you is right now because it's so new to everyone. Over time it will simply become accepted as part of who you are (hopefully).
My mother and father were in their early twenties when I was born, both religious, while my grandparents who had a larger hand in raising me during that time were very much not. During that time, I really didn't know which was which. As a small child I suppose I only cared about issues of fundamental safety and security. My grandfather is/was a gentle man who taught me respect for animals, while my grandmother was a very intelligent, driven women. That was all I could really see. I was 8-9'ish and had essentially forgotten my early childhood by the time I even noticed their religious beliefs. The family dynamic was entirely different by that time.
So essentially, I don't think this will be an issue that affects the development of your child provided that the adults don't make it into one. And when he does reach that age 7-9 developmental stage he'll be very firmly in your corner and your wife's corner about everything, without sensing any conflict between the two at all. That environment naturally will tend to prevent all of the other'izing that happens in religion, up to an age where he's an adolescent and forming his own identity.
I think the real danger would be the marriage and mutual expectations. On the one side, yeah, she wants what she wants. But the good news is that the whole body of Christian religion that she's leaning on will be the very thing to tell her to stay married. Most Christian leaders will give the advice to remain married through conflicts of faith, and there's Biblical support for that. One course I would consider taking is to come clean with the local leader about your change of faith and express your concerns for your marriage. You can gauge their opinions on the issue of interfaith marriages during that conversation. But the local leader is really likely to be receptive to you if you show interest in the organization on the point of it being able to mediate marriage conflicts, and just serve as a community center in general. Congregation leaders really value their ability to pull communities together like that, and Christianity is very authoritarian and likely to take his lead. This course of action will likely to lead to an private appointment with your local leader where he will express to your wife his views on interfaith marriages and reinforce her commitment to you. The potential for conflict will be even lower still if you can continue to attend services. I remember a lot of men who were fathers of religious families in my parents' congregation. They attended regularly, but I later found out the reason they weren't participating in ceremonies was because they didn't believe in them. As a kid, I never would have known.
Of course, that all depends on you and whether you want to keep religion out of your life. A marriage between a non-believer and a religious person can be worked out. But a marriage between a religious person and one who is just as strongly committed not to have religion is an entirely different dynamic, and only one person can win that. It doesn't sound like you want to fight that battle, so don't make the mistake of thinking that you have to.
If there's a light at the end of the tunnel, it's that each of your personal beliefs and your entire relationship dynamic in general is prone to have changed drastically going 10 or more years into the future. I remember when I was in my 20's it seemed like everything was bound to stay the same, but at 30, honestly everything is different. Religion really doesn't rank that high on the list of human needs, and so living in a stable environment for all that time carries a lot more weight. It won't be some chronically recurring conflict after everyone concerned has a chance to get used to it.
To that end, you might want to consider counseling for yourself to work out a 'strategy' on how to remedy this or, perhaps more productively, counseling for the both of you.
People invariably change, and that includes loss of faith, which shouldn't be some epic watershed event for reasonable people. You have to remember and hold onto the fact that you love each other, for better or for worse, unconditionally, and you believe in whatever you've got and working things out.
I'm still not on the same page as to what you have done and when. You've gone public and your wife knows. Correct?
idk... seems to me that as a non-believer it shouldnt be a huge deal for you to just play along. A much harder stance to reconcile would be a couple where the beliefs are different (A Jew and Christian, or a Buddhist and a Muslim for example).
Fluffy - are you religious?
The reason why I ask is because asking a non-believer to participate in Christian religious activities is just like asking anyone else to participate in something they don't believe in.
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"When in Rome, do as the Romans do"
Goes both ways =P
Same form of question - Jay, are you married?
I participate in things I don't believe in all the time due to being married. Wife asks me to go shopping to find a "cute" pair of jeans, I don't believe in that, but I participate. I watch football, she doesn't believe in that, but she cheers anyway.
There is the kind of non-religious person who holds religion to be about as arbitrary and unimportant as any of those things. And on the other hand, there's the kind of non-religious person whose non-religious stance becomes a valued part of their identity and a high personal priority in itself. If someone's the first, there's no problem further than just being annoyed by having to leave the house on Sunday. If the second, then it's a tug-of-war where someone has to give.
Yes. And, for reference, my wife and I are different religions, and we've already worked out the issues on how the kids are to be raised regarding religious belief.
Participating in indoctrinating your child into a religious belief you don't share can hardly being considered the same as giving up a Saturday afternoon to go shopping with your wife.
If it was just Dechs' time, that'd be one thing. I agree there should always be sacrifices for the other person (I've attended the Hindu temple whenever my wife has gone - but Hinduism is fundamentally different than Christianity, it's not a proseltyzing religion and doesn't encourage or require the conversion of non-believers), the problem here is the kid. Pretending to be Christian, in my opinion, would send the wrong message to his son.
My buddy just broke up with his long-term girlfriend over just this issue. When it comes to religion, it quickly becomes 'my way or the highway' when raising kids, and an atheist or agnostic parent can be shut out of raising their kids because of it. Dechs needs to work out for himself (with his wife) where the line falls between their beliefs and how to approach raising the child.
@Magickware99 - Up until I got married in a Hindu ceremony, I did exactly as you describe, and played along as much as I could stand. My wife and I have agreed to raise the kids to learn about Hinduism and Christianity, but only as something that a lot of people believe in and not present it to them as facts. That's my only issue with 'faking it' - he can't protect his son from indoctrination effectively if he's going along with it.
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Because if preventing religious indoctrination is the goal of one spouse and advancing that indoctrination is the goal of another, then that's the definition of parenting at cross-purposes, and it would be a volatile situation that is bound to blow up at some point. One or both sides has to compromise.
No, I was raised Methodist but I would consider myself to be... agnostic? I really just dont care. My wife is Lutheran, we got married in a Lutheran church, when we have kids they will go to Sunday school and get confirmed.
My reasoning is very simple. Kids should have the choice in what they believe but if they do not go to church they are not going to learn about it. I find that it is much easier to be raised in a religious setting and choose between religion(any religion) and atheism than it is to be raised with no religion and then decide to become religious.
I myself am not a Christian. I've identified as agnostic for many years. But if I had to pick a Christian church to belong to, it'd be the United Church of Christ. The advocate the teachings of Jesus over the teachings of mainstream Christianity. I.e. Love, Acceptance, Humility, etc rather than judgment, condemnation, and the bible as infaliable. And they take it pretty seriously, there are a number of openly-gay pastors and members of the church nationwide. When I was of the age to get confirmed at the church, I talked to the pastor about my doubts, how I didn't believe in an active god or the bible or the divinity of Jesus, and he assured me that I could belong anyways because I had the traits that really mattered - love, compassion, generosity, etc.
I dunno, it's just some food for thought. If you can't stand being a member of Christianity, maybe you'll find some specific sects more amenable. It could be a nice compromise, and lessen the risk of marital strife. You might even get your family to back off.
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Yes, I certainly see the difference between these two statements. I do believe that your child - while young - likely inherited some of your ability to evaluate and objectively weigh ideas. Even if you encounter the latter (and it appears to be a purely hypothetical - if perhaps likely - scenario), I do believe your child will see through it.
Well, that's the thing. We're already indoctrinated on so many things, why does this have to be such a deal-breaker?
This is a huge deal, especially given that the OP's wife and his extended family seems to be fairly religious. It's more a matter of whether you're willing to keep the family together, or stick to your principles and let it dissolve.
That's true. Honestly, I think I'd end up being so annoyed with it all the time I'm not sure I could 'pretend', and religion, politics and incompatibility in bed that (to my knowledge) tend to be the biggest sticking points in relationships (besides money). I really hope Dechs and his wife work it, out, I'm just coming from the point of view of having to console a friend who had a less than reasonable person on the other end. Because it's not just about the religion thing, it's about having say in your kid's life.
Indoctrination is probably a bad word to use, since it's so loaded. I would say my concern is far more about the father being able to openly express his views to his children, even if you take religion out of it.
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They feel that there's a heck of a lot at stake. I personally do not- I know a good number of Christians who take their faith as more of a moral compass and something that is rather regularly questioned. I do not think this is the case for Dech Kaison's family and wife, but it is quite possible to raise someone in a Christian household and have them not be a zealot, as people seem to fear..
And, yes, indoctrination is the wrong word to use. If you think about it, there are so many crap that we just take for granted and as pure truth (the hideous food pyramid of the 70-90s is one obvious example, the supposed infallibility of the U.S. Constitution is another here in the U.S.). Yet, those are just considered normal stuff, while religious bullheadedness and strong belief is indoctrination? Do you see the bias there?