Agreed. If this continues to be a major point of contention and strain on the relationship, it's worth going. You can always continue to vent here, but I doubt anyone on this board is qualified to help you with this specific problem at this point.
I would add that I think you're just still dealing with the knee-jerk anger reaction here. I think you'll find it becomes less of a knock-down, drag out issue as time goes on as long as you're patient with her. Whatever you do, don't resort to insulting her back, that's couple's therapy rule number one.
I wanted to chime in and agree here. My own spouse is pretty good at hurling the insults when she is upset, and I've been known to throw them back. It never ends well for either of us. Channel your frustration elsewhere, and work to find better ways to communicate. It's a hard spot to be in, and even though I reject Christianity now, I do agree with something a pastor once said when I was younger, about how it is really hard to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't believe the same things you do. It is.
I'd like to clarity something here. I'm not against my son being religious. I don't care what he chooses, even if he chooses to not be inquisitive at all, just so long as he gets that choice. All my life, it has been wrong to ask questions. It has been wrong to disagree with parts of the message. It has been wrong not to go to church, even though I don't agree with everything. It has been wrong to want to know about other religions. I will not let my son grow up under that level of influence.
Just as an update, things have only been getting worse. My wife and brother are still the only ones who seem to know about my change of beliefs. I haven't spoken to my brother a second time yet, but I have had a few more conversations with my wife. I'm not getting through to her at all.
She has no sense of compromise about this. She's demanding that I never discuss my beliefs with our son and that I lie to him if he ever does ask faith questions. She has started trying to restrict which friends I'm in contact with (the ones she knows are atheists - never mind that I'm not an atheist). The conversations I've had with her lately have usually ended with her resorting to insults.
"You don't love him enough [to lie to him about my faith]."
"You just made up what you believe."
"You believe stupid things that don't make any sense."
"Well, you just believe anything you're told these days."
"Because I don't want you to hang out with him so you can hear him say 'yay, you're an idiot like me now.'"
I'm trying to hang on here, but I don't know how much of this I can take.
Without giving my whole backstory, I'll just say I can relate. My situation is better than yours, but I still felt physically ill reading about your situation. I'm really sorry.
That said, to put it bluntly, your request to compromise is illogical. The given is that your wife believes that any path that is not Christianity leads to Hell. For better or worse, that is the reality. This means that her and your son's salvation are of infinite value to her. Nothing compares. Not her health, not your marriage, nothing. There is literally nothing for her to gain from a compromise about how to raise your son that even begins to compare to the risk she would be taking. She is 100% incentivized to protect your son from you. Some Christians are not as extreme as this, however, it sounds like in the case of your wife, she is. You will get no compromise, or at least not an enforceable one.
But then, this was basically stated in the OP, so I'm not telling you something you don't know. This means you want someone to tell you you're wrong or that it'll get better. I'm sorry, but nothing you've said leads me to believe that that is the case. I agree with the person who said to get a good lawyer.
(Forgive me if any assumption I made were incorrect, I was trying not to project my own experiences, but it's hard.)
I'll be honest, if its something you can afford (or if you have some other free option) this is the time to talk to a marriage counselor, not an on line message board.
If you really love her and want to fight for the relationship, then thats what you need to do. Posting here is no doubt therapeutic, but doesn't provide any more advice beyond what has already been given.
my money is on wife countering said proposition with a sit down with her pastor.
my money is on wife countering said proposition with a sit down with her pastor.
And that would be bad how? Seriously, how would that be bad? As long as they are sitting down iwth the intent to work on their relationship its an improvement.
And that would be bad how? Seriously, how would that be bad? As long as they are sitting down iwth the intent to work on their relationship its an improvement.
That's a pretty big assumption. Her intent for going to the pastor is so she has a teammate that can "bring me back," not so we can work things out. Regardless, I highly doubt any pastor could be an impartial third party counselor when the reason for the counselling is a crisis of faith.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
She's already suggested this, but phrased as "you need to talk to the pastor about your doubts."
You could try meeting other pastors and talking to them? Try to get other pastors that are more liberal and will probably agree with you to speak to her.
Or will this backfire with her just saying that they're not actually Christians or something?
And that would be bad how? Seriously, how would that be bad? As long as they are sitting down iwth the intent to work on their relationship its an improvement.
Her intent for going to the pastor is so she has a teammate that can "bring me back," not so we can work things out. Regardless, I highly doubt any pastor could be an impartial third party counselor when the reason for the counselling is a crisis of faith.
This. Prehaps I confused Dechs with another poster in the thread (and if I do so, my apologies), but did he not say already that she spoke with the pastor and he was labeled "a negative influence on the child's life"?
This. Prehaps I confused Dechs with another poster in the thread (and if I do so, my apologies), but did he not say already that she spoke with the pastor and he was labeled "a negative influence on the child's life"?
That was someone else.
I don't know how the pastor we'd go to would react, but that's hardly the point. Her intention in this vein is not to sit down and fix us, it's to sit down and fix me.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
She's already suggested this, but phrased as "you need to talk to the pastor about your doubts."
Which is not what I suggested you need. I suggested you should get marriage counseling. There is a distinction between talking to a pastor about your faith (or lack thereof) and talking to your pastor about your marriage.
Will there be crossover? Sure, but its not the same thing.
Perhaps you could suggest that as a compromise you talk to your pastor and/or whatever kind of marriage counseling/counselor the church provides.
She feels like your willing to at least listen to her, and you get her to sit down in front of someone with you who can help talk out the issues your having and point out when someone is doing/saying something counter productive.
That's a pretty big assumption. Her intent for going to the pastor is so she has a teammate that can "bring me back," not so we can work things out. Regardless, I highly doubt any pastor could be an impartial third party counselor when the reason for the counseling is a crisis of faith.
It's not an assumption. Because you preface it with "I'd like to sit down with a marriage counselor to discuss these issues. As a concession, I'm willing to have that counselor be the pastor, but the purpose of the meeting is to discuss our marriage."
If she agrees to it, then she agrees to it. I'm not saying you should just blindly go in with her to see the pastor. You schedule a meeting, and you tell the pastor what the purpose of the meeting is.
Obviously you'd prefer to use a secular marriage counselor. But, what would be worse -- no marriage counseling at all, or marriage counseling from a pastor? I can't make that decision for you, so think about it.
Most pastors have "seen it all," so to speak. They should have the discernment to differentiate which conversations to have with you directly (your faith - to the extent you are willing to talk about it) and which conversations are appropriate for both of you (your marriage and the way you interact). You might be disappointed, but I'm hopeful that your (former?) pastor would be able to navigate what might otherwise appear to be a loaded conversation.
In addition to marriage counseling (actually, more so than the counseling), my wife and I found books by John Gottman to be useful. It was helpful to have a definition of healthy and unhealthy behaviors. Those quotes from your wife might fall under the contempt definition in that latter category.
I highly doubt any pastor could be an impartial third party counselor when the reason for the counselling is a crisis of faith.
I don't think you are giving pastor's enough credit. Sure, some won't be able to do it, but some will.
Maybe suggest going to a pastor from a different church who doesn't have an established relationship with you guys?
The point is, you need to show her that your willing to work in her arena, or she'll never come around to be willing to work in your arena.
If you aren't willing to sit down with a counselor who might be biased towards her why should she be willing to sit down with a counselor who she knows will be biased against her*.
*In her mind. We both know a secular counselor won't necessarily be biased agisnt her.
When you get a pastor involved it ceases being a relationship issue and immediately becomes a problem with his atheism. I know, because I've been down that road. It will turn into them against him, against his doubts, against his "struggle with the devil," or however they want to put it. Bottom line, it will come down to he's having a crisis of faith, and that is the underlying problem in the household, not that they can't come to some sort of middle-ground based on their differing beliefs.
Pastors are not counselors, nor are all of them even trained as such. By the very dint of being a pastor they can often counsel couples, but it absolutely does not mean they are any good at it.
Avoid that option if possible, see a real couples counselor, one that is trained and experienced. They have amazing ways of putting things into perspective for both you, and your partner.
Scott, I don't want to diminish your experience, but I do want to highlight that your experience represents a sample size of one.
It's possible to have good and bad experiences with counselors, in the same way that it is possible to have good and bad experiences with pastors (and spouses, and MTGS posters, and ...)
Scott, I don't want to diminish your experience, but I do want to highlight that your experience represents a sample size of one.
It's possible to have good and bad experiences with counselors, in the same way that it is possible to have good and bad experiences with pastors (and spouses, and MTGS posters, and ...)
I'm sorry, but I don't agree and this goes beyond simply my own experience.
The pastor is, in most cases, not going to be a trained professional counselor. The pastor is, however, going to already have a predrawn conclusion about the problem at hand. A pastor is the very example of a Christian trying to reach the unsaved, and Dechs is exactly that. Unsaved. I am sure there are pastors out there that, like you said, may want to truly help beyond the concern of saving his soul, but most won't. Most will see the root cause of their marital problems as his atheism, not that they cannot come to an agreement.
A pastor is going to fall back on the bible, or should, if he is worth his weight in salt. "Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?" 2 Cor. 6:14-15.
I am not saying that the pastor is going to advocate they split up, far from it. Most Christian pastors that I know would say that she would need to stick it out, that the right thing to do is to 'seek God and love them.' But all the pastor can and probably will do is add more stress to the situation.
And honestly, why go to a pastor when you could see a trained counselor instead, one that specializes in marital strife, and one that is wholly impartial from your religious affiliation? I think they would be far more qualified to offer sound help.
And honestly, why go to a pastor when you could see a trained counselor instead, one that specializes in marital strife, and one that is wholly impartial from your religious affiliation? I think they would be far more qualified to offer sound help.
The issue with a trained counselor is whether the wife would accept the trained counselor as a neutral source of advice. There's a chance the wife will believe that the counselor will side with OP about his beliefs, just like a pastor might side with the wife about OP's beliefs.
Best thing to do is find a pastor who is a trained counselor or a pastor who can recommend a trained counselor. Both parties need to trust the neutral adviser for the neutral adviser to be effective.
Edit: I agree with cme that, for the sake of the child at least, you should try to preserve the marriage. If your wife considers divorce over this, she must understand that divorce will likely do more damage to the child than one parent's lack of religious belief.
I am sure there are pastors out there that, like you said, may want to truly help beyond the concern of saving his soul, but most won't.
I am not saying that the pastor is going to advocate they split up, far from it. Most Christian pastors that I know would say that she would need to stick it out, that the right thing to do is to 'seek God and love them.'
These statements appear to be in conflict.
I do disagree that your experience was representative and that "all the pastor can and probably will do is add more stress to the situation." I recognize; however, that I don't have any statistical figures to support my view. As children from intact families have measurably better outcomes, I might encourage the OP to try any means available to save the marriage - if he has a bad experience with one option, then move on.
I don't disagree that marriage counseling is likely the preferred path forward.
These statements appear to be in conflict.
I do disagree that your experience was representative and that "all the pastor can and probably will do is add more stress to the situation." I recognize; however, that I don't have any statistical figures to support my view. As children from intact families have measurably better outcomes, I might encourage the OP to try any means available to save the marriage - if he has a bad experience with one option, then move on.
They aren't in conflict, I merely can't rule anything out. I can't guarantee that there are absolutely no pastors out there that couldn't look past his atheism, only that there are not likely to be many.
EDIT: Finding a neutral party is as easy as sitting down together and searching for one. They are a married couple, even if they don't agree in their beliefs right now. They don't need to ask a pastor to vette counselors.
Long story short: I've recently decided that I can no longer identify as a Christian and I've essentially 'gone public' with it.
The problem is that this revelation comes at a very inopportune time: I now have a four month old child. Now, he's not old enough yet, but when the time comes, naturally, I want to be open about my beliefs with my son. I'm not opposed to him being exposed to Christianity. I don't plan to tell him I know I'm right because frankly, I don't. My wife is not so open minded; neither is much of my family, to be honest. At this point, two things have become apparent to me about the future.
First is that my family will see it as defense of the child to telling him I'm wrong. I understand why, of course, being that I was from that faith. It's just that, well, he's my son. I can't have my entire family telling him I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about.
Second is that, more than just with my son, they've taken it up as a mission to re-convert me. It's not entirely apparent to them right now, but I do not see that happening. I don't know what's going to happen as that becomes more and more clear.
I'm really not sure what I can do here and I'm starting to feel like an enemy, even in my own home.
You cannot compromise your integrity to yourself. Ever.
You have to be faithful to who you are. If you are not true to yourself, you cannot live a life that is your own.
So that is what you do here. All other things flow from that.
That is a rough situation. Honestly, you should never 'come out' as no longer believing in the same faith as your family.
... You're not seriously saying that he should have lived a lie instead of being honest, are you? Because that would be the worst advice you could have possibly given him.
Man, you have a warped up perception of what that word means. I think people use that word too easily.
Which is the point. You are an adult, presumably living alone and away from your family.
I don't quite understand why you're begrudging the fact that you had to wrestle with your faith and your belief in your twenties to be able to come to a conclusion that satisfies you when you're thirty. Life-changing decisions take a long time.
You are independent, and you can choose. You made a choice that separated you from your parents and loved ones, and obviously there are consequences to that.
You're making it look at though this is all their fault.
And of course they'd try to make you a Christian again. As far as they're concerned, you're going to hell for eternity if you keep this up. Based on their beliefs, they KNOW this. Based on yours, you KNOW that won't happen.
Obviously there is no middle ground here, and that's why this is such a touchy subject.
Clearly the mother, presumably your Christian gf? has no say.
Yup. That makes sense. Your beliefs override theirs. Simply because you KNOW you're right.
I feel like I cannot really blame you for posting this, because you simply do not know any better. But you are being... The kindest way I can phrase this is "astoundingly insensitive."
No, what Scott is talking about is, beyond question, indoctrination. He's being pressured by his family to conform to a particular belief system, and being told he's not just incorrect, but wrong for doing so. They are disrespecting him as a person, and devaluing him in turn. They're not just saying his choice is wrong, they're trying to bully him so that he doesn't feel he has a choice. That is wrong.
And, frankly, how dare you attack him for saying that? You're doing exactly what his family is doing.
You cannot compromise your integrity to yourself. Ever.
This. I have a somewhat different situation - I entered into a relationship with a devout Christian who knew from the beginning that I'm an atheist, and while both of our families are religious, my views are tolerated.
We've decided years ago that, should we have children, we will expose our children to as much religion and nonreligion as we can. The key things to remember are 1.) communication, and 2.) respect. As long as those two are strong within your local family (you, spouse, children) all else follows.
A child will believe their father much more readily than they will their grandmother or aunt or what have you. Just make sure you respect your spouse's religion as much as she respects your lack of it, and that you communicate whenever something bothers you.
If your wife isn't willing to compromise and communicate...I personally would look elsewhere rather than conform to beliefs I don't hold. What you do is up to you, obviously.
I feel like I cannot really blame you for posting this, because you simply do not know any better. But you are being... The kindest way I can phrase this is "astoundingly insensitive."
No, what Scott is talking about is, beyond question, indoctrination.
He specifically mentioned that him going to church and doing church activities during childhood was indoctrination. I disagree, if nothing else because that would mean everything your parents force you to do in childhood can be called indoctrination then.
He's being pressured by his family to conform to a particular belief system, and being told he's not just incorrect, but wrong for doing so. They are disrespecting him as a person, and devaluing him in turn. They're not just saying his choice is wrong, they're trying to bully him so that he doesn't feel he has a choice. That is wrong.
I agree. That's why I said he's an adult and has his own say in things and can leave whenever he wants.
If your wife considers divorce over this, she must understand that divorce will likely do more damage to the child than one parent's lack of religious belief.
Based on what has been said about the wife though this is simply not true in her world. Yes to non-believers and many believers what you are saying may be true. But to Dechs wife? You're basically saying she has to believe that growing up with a broken home is worse than eternal suffering... No matter how bad life is it's minuscule versus all of eternity. You'd be much better off convincing her that growing up in a home with both parents gives the child a better chance of believing even though Dechs does not believe, than growing up in a broken home, because the belief part is what really matter to the wife.
This is a similar reason for why it actually does make sense for some religious nuts to be anti-homosexuality... (big emphasis on some, and just because it makes sense does not make it right). For those select few they truly do believe that if they can prevent even a tiny fraction of people from sinning, the suffering on Earth they may endure, will be worth the Eternal glory of heaven.
Dechs has already established what his wife believes and what he believes. This is not the place to argue about what religious people do and do not believe. There are more than enough debate topics about it.
Jay, At this point I'm pretty sure I've gotten as much as I'm going to get out of this thread. Since we're at the point where people are just arguing against each other, I think it's time you just closed the thread.
Before that, I would like to reiterate my thanks to everyone in the thread. There's been a lot of good advice here and it's made me think about things in ways I wasn't going to on my own. If nothing else, I feel much better having had the chance to get this stuff off my chest and hear I'm not the only one who's gone through this. I appreciate the support I've gotten as well as the criticisms. To anyone who would like to discuss things further with me, I welcome the PM.
Again, you all have my gratitude in a way I cannot even express properly, but we're done here.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
I wanted to chime in and agree here. My own spouse is pretty good at hurling the insults when she is upset, and I've been known to throw them back. It never ends well for either of us. Channel your frustration elsewhere, and work to find better ways to communicate. It's a hard spot to be in, and even though I reject Christianity now, I do agree with something a pastor once said when I was younger, about how it is really hard to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't believe the same things you do. It is.
Without giving my whole backstory, I'll just say I can relate. My situation is better than yours, but I still felt physically ill reading about your situation. I'm really sorry.
That said, to put it bluntly, your request to compromise is illogical. The given is that your wife believes that any path that is not Christianity leads to Hell. For better or worse, that is the reality. This means that her and your son's salvation are of infinite value to her. Nothing compares. Not her health, not your marriage, nothing. There is literally nothing for her to gain from a compromise about how to raise your son that even begins to compare to the risk she would be taking. She is 100% incentivized to protect your son from you. Some Christians are not as extreme as this, however, it sounds like in the case of your wife, she is. You will get no compromise, or at least not an enforceable one.
But then, this was basically stated in the OP, so I'm not telling you something you don't know. This means you want someone to tell you you're wrong or that it'll get better. I'm sorry, but nothing you've said leads me to believe that that is the case. I agree with the person who said to get a good lawyer.
(Forgive me if any assumption I made were incorrect, I was trying not to project my own experiences, but it's hard.)
my money is on wife countering said proposition with a sit down with her pastor.
And that would be bad how? Seriously, how would that be bad? As long as they are sitting down iwth the intent to work on their relationship its an improvement.
She's already suggested this, but phrased as "you need to talk to the pastor about your doubts."
That's a pretty big assumption. Her intent for going to the pastor is so she has a teammate that can "bring me back," not so we can work things out. Regardless, I highly doubt any pastor could be an impartial third party counselor when the reason for the counselling is a crisis of faith.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
You could try meeting other pastors and talking to them? Try to get other pastors that are more liberal and will probably agree with you to speak to her.
Or will this backfire with her just saying that they're not actually Christians or something?
This. Prehaps I confused Dechs with another poster in the thread (and if I do so, my apologies), but did he not say already that she spoke with the pastor and he was labeled "a negative influence on the child's life"?
That was someone else.
I don't know how the pastor we'd go to would react, but that's hardly the point. Her intention in this vein is not to sit down and fix us, it's to sit down and fix me.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Which is not what I suggested you need. I suggested you should get marriage counseling. There is a distinction between talking to a pastor about your faith (or lack thereof) and talking to your pastor about your marriage.
Will there be crossover? Sure, but its not the same thing.
Perhaps you could suggest that as a compromise you talk to your pastor and/or whatever kind of marriage counseling/counselor the church provides.
She feels like your willing to at least listen to her, and you get her to sit down in front of someone with you who can help talk out the issues your having and point out when someone is doing/saying something counter productive.
It's not an assumption. Because you preface it with "I'd like to sit down with a marriage counselor to discuss these issues. As a concession, I'm willing to have that counselor be the pastor, but the purpose of the meeting is to discuss our marriage."
If she agrees to it, then she agrees to it. I'm not saying you should just blindly go in with her to see the pastor. You schedule a meeting, and you tell the pastor what the purpose of the meeting is.
Obviously you'd prefer to use a secular marriage counselor. But, what would be worse -- no marriage counseling at all, or marriage counseling from a pastor? I can't make that decision for you, so think about it.
In addition to marriage counseling (actually, more so than the counseling), my wife and I found books by John Gottman to be useful. It was helpful to have a definition of healthy and unhealthy behaviors. Those quotes from your wife might fall under the contempt definition in that latter category.
I don't think you are giving pastor's enough credit. Sure, some won't be able to do it, but some will.
Maybe suggest going to a pastor from a different church who doesn't have an established relationship with you guys?
The point is, you need to show her that your willing to work in her arena, or she'll never come around to be willing to work in your arena.
If you aren't willing to sit down with a counselor who might be biased towards her why should she be willing to sit down with a counselor who she knows will be biased against her*.
*In her mind. We both know a secular counselor won't necessarily be biased agisnt her.
Pastors are not counselors, nor are all of them even trained as such. By the very dint of being a pastor they can often counsel couples, but it absolutely does not mean they are any good at it.
Avoid that option if possible, see a real couples counselor, one that is trained and experienced. They have amazing ways of putting things into perspective for both you, and your partner.
It's possible to have good and bad experiences with counselors, in the same way that it is possible to have good and bad experiences with pastors (and spouses, and MTGS posters, and ...)
I'm sorry, but I don't agree and this goes beyond simply my own experience.
The pastor is, in most cases, not going to be a trained professional counselor. The pastor is, however, going to already have a predrawn conclusion about the problem at hand. A pastor is the very example of a Christian trying to reach the unsaved, and Dechs is exactly that. Unsaved. I am sure there are pastors out there that, like you said, may want to truly help beyond the concern of saving his soul, but most won't. Most will see the root cause of their marital problems as his atheism, not that they cannot come to an agreement.
A pastor is going to fall back on the bible, or should, if he is worth his weight in salt. "Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?" 2 Cor. 6:14-15.
I am not saying that the pastor is going to advocate they split up, far from it. Most Christian pastors that I know would say that she would need to stick it out, that the right thing to do is to 'seek God and love them.' But all the pastor can and probably will do is add more stress to the situation.
And honestly, why go to a pastor when you could see a trained counselor instead, one that specializes in marital strife, and one that is wholly impartial from your religious affiliation? I think they would be far more qualified to offer sound help.
The issue with a trained counselor is whether the wife would accept the trained counselor as a neutral source of advice. There's a chance the wife will believe that the counselor will side with OP about his beliefs, just like a pastor might side with the wife about OP's beliefs.
Best thing to do is find a pastor who is a trained counselor or a pastor who can recommend a trained counselor. Both parties need to trust the neutral adviser for the neutral adviser to be effective.
Edit: I agree with cme that, for the sake of the child at least, you should try to preserve the marriage. If your wife considers divorce over this, she must understand that divorce will likely do more damage to the child than one parent's lack of religious belief.
These statements appear to be in conflict.
I do disagree that your experience was representative and that "all the pastor can and probably will do is add more stress to the situation." I recognize; however, that I don't have any statistical figures to support my view. As children from intact families have measurably better outcomes, I might encourage the OP to try any means available to save the marriage - if he has a bad experience with one option, then move on.
They aren't in conflict, I merely can't rule anything out. I can't guarantee that there are absolutely no pastors out there that couldn't look past his atheism, only that there are not likely to be many.
EDIT: Finding a neutral party is as easy as sitting down together and searching for one. They are a married couple, even if they don't agree in their beliefs right now. They don't need to ask a pastor to vette counselors.
You cannot compromise your integrity to yourself. Ever.
You have to be faithful to who you are. If you are not true to yourself, you cannot live a life that is your own.
So that is what you do here. All other things flow from that.
... You're not seriously saying that he should have lived a lie instead of being honest, are you? Because that would be the worst advice you could have possibly given him.
Not all of them.
I feel like I cannot really blame you for posting this, because you simply do not know any better. But you are being... The kindest way I can phrase this is "astoundingly insensitive."
No, what Scott is talking about is, beyond question, indoctrination. He's being pressured by his family to conform to a particular belief system, and being told he's not just incorrect, but wrong for doing so. They are disrespecting him as a person, and devaluing him in turn. They're not just saying his choice is wrong, they're trying to bully him so that he doesn't feel he has a choice. That is wrong.
And, frankly, how dare you attack him for saying that? You're doing exactly what his family is doing.
This. I have a somewhat different situation - I entered into a relationship with a devout Christian who knew from the beginning that I'm an atheist, and while both of our families are religious, my views are tolerated.
We've decided years ago that, should we have children, we will expose our children to as much religion and nonreligion as we can. The key things to remember are 1.) communication, and 2.) respect. As long as those two are strong within your local family (you, spouse, children) all else follows.
A child will believe their father much more readily than they will their grandmother or aunt or what have you. Just make sure you respect your spouse's religion as much as she respects your lack of it, and that you communicate whenever something bothers you.
If your wife isn't willing to compromise and communicate...I personally would look elsewhere rather than conform to beliefs I don't hold. What you do is up to you, obviously.
Loam Pox
Standard:
Boros Burn
Maybe.
He specifically mentioned that him going to church and doing church activities during childhood was indoctrination. I disagree, if nothing else because that would mean everything your parents force you to do in childhood can be called indoctrination then.
I agree. That's why I said he's an adult and has his own say in things and can leave whenever he wants.
I attacked him?
Based on what has been said about the wife though this is simply not true in her world. Yes to non-believers and many believers what you are saying may be true. But to Dechs wife? You're basically saying she has to believe that growing up with a broken home is worse than eternal suffering... No matter how bad life is it's minuscule versus all of eternity. You'd be much better off convincing her that growing up in a home with both parents gives the child a better chance of believing even though Dechs does not believe, than growing up in a broken home, because the belief part is what really matter to the wife.
This is a similar reason for why it actually does make sense for some religious nuts to be anti-homosexuality... (big emphasis on some, and just because it makes sense does not make it right). For those select few they truly do believe that if they can prevent even a tiny fraction of people from sinning, the suffering on Earth they may endure, will be worth the Eternal glory of heaven.
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Before that, I would like to reiterate my thanks to everyone in the thread. There's been a lot of good advice here and it's made me think about things in ways I wasn't going to on my own. If nothing else, I feel much better having had the chance to get this stuff off my chest and hear I'm not the only one who's gone through this. I appreciate the support I've gotten as well as the criticisms. To anyone who would like to discuss things further with me, I welcome the PM.
Again, you all have my gratitude in a way I cannot even express properly, but we're done here.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!