I do not think this is the case for Dech Kaison's family and wife, but it is quite possible to raise someone in a Christian household and have them not be a zealot, as people seem to fear..
The strength of the belief is irrelevant here, I think you're mistaking a fear of zealotry with a fear of being left out, or to not have your opinion or beliefs valued, which is a reasonable fear for Dechs.
We need to take it elsewhere if you want to keep going down this line, but I do see the problem you describe very acutely. I've thought about it a lot so that when it comes to my children, who will be coming coming from two very different racial, ethnic and religious backgrounds (4th generation Irish-Italian Catholic 'New Yorker' turned Agnostic and 1st generation Indian Hindu) will understand why people believe some things rather than others. But if you're working under the assumption that I don't realize the inherent biases and indoctrination that occurs with just raising children, believe me I do.
Just throwing this out there but... what would be wrong with just not believing but participating?
I think it's wrong to misrepresent myself, to my son or otherwise. If I were to participate, I won't be able to hide the fact that I don't believe. That sends the wrong messages. "Daddy still goes to church even though he doesn't believe" can be interpreted many ways, from "I should fake belief to be accepted" to "I have to go even if I don't believe" to "it's not OK to question religious authority."
Well, I suppose it's fair to ask Dechs the question whether preventing indoctrination of his son is one of his goals here.
As Jay mentioned, indoctrinated is a loaded term. To me, indoctrinated implies at least some amount of brainwashing, repeating messages and discouraging debate. I do want to prevent that.
But I won't go so far as to say he can't go to church or read the bible. I want him to go to church. I want him to see things from that point of view. I want him to decide for himself if it's something he agrees with.
My wife seems to be mortally afraid of that last part. She's of the opinion that parents' beliefs are going to be the most influential parts on a child's. I don't disagree with her. In her mind, I'm going to be the reason the kid will grow up and not be a Christian. In her mind, I'm the reason the kid will go to hell. In her mind, I "don't love him enough."
This is a huge deal, especially given that the OP's wife and his extended family seems to be fairly religious. It's more a matter of whether you're willing to keep the family together, or stick to your principles and let it dissolve.
As I said before, I won't be able to hide who I am. I won't fake being a Christian to keep the peace.
Well, that's the thing. We're already indoctrinated on so many things, why does this have to be such a deal-breaker?
When I tell my child to question everything, I want him to know I mean it. Everything. I don't want to say "everything but X." Whether that X is religion, politics, food pyramids, bigfoot or the moon landing.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
I think it's wrong to misrepresent myself, to my son or otherwise. If I were to participate, I won't be able to hide the fact that I don't believe. That sends the wrong messages. "Daddy still goes to church even though he doesn't believe" can be interpreted many ways, from "I should fake belief to be accepted" to "I have to go even if I don't believe" to "it's not OK to question religious authority."
Or daddy still goes to church because religion happens to be full of pretty decent messages and moral teachings. Daddy still goes to church to support your learning about the religion so you can decide for yourself...
How not-religious are you? Are you an Atheist? Are you agnostic? There are a lot of agnostic views that can be a lot less shocking to someone than flat out un-belief... for example "if there is a God, God probably is not too worried about whether or not I believe in him as long as I live a good moral life." or "There are so many religions who am I to say which one is correct? I just dont believe in any particular religion". Those may be easier positions to swallow if explained carefully. Depending on....
How religious is your wife? Does she go to church every Sunday? Depending on how religious she is, to be perfectly honest you probably dont have much of a choice. This very easily could be something that you and your wife will never be able to reconcile. In her mind you probably went from perfect, to unfit for a relationship at the snap of a finger... Not only was she thinking she'd spend her whole life with you but also all eternity... now you're going to hell and she'll be damned (no pun intended) if she lets you take her or your son with you. You should be very prepared for the possibility that she will leave you and probably try to take your son away from you in the process.
My wife seems to be mortally afraid of that last part. She's of the opinion that parents' beliefs are going to be the most influential parts on a child's. I don't disagree with her. In her mind, I'm going to be the reason the kid will grow up and not be a Christian. In her mind, I'm the reason the kid will go to hell. In her mind, I "don't love him enough."
That so perfectly encapsulates the problem that I honestly don't know what to say.
I guess what it comes down to is what are you willing to compromise on? As I stated, my friend who was met with the same problem with his long-term girlfriend just last month (in every other way this was the woman he wanted to marry).
I definitely think you have to keep in mind that when she committed to you and the two of you first had children, she thought you shared her beliefs. You can't expect her to change them right away because you did.
I have to disagree quite strongly with the premise that participation equals the expression of belief, at least as far as the mind of your child is concerned. I think that's something that adults tend to read into religion, mostly as a result of the religion itself and what it says about the worth of participation. On the other hand, children are biologically programmed to sense social situations typical to human evolutionary development. Power dynamics within family units and between family units and larger group authority are part of a child's social makeup to understand. The child has no tendency to read inauthenticity into what someone is doing there.
Put simply, statements like "Daddy still goes to church even though he doesn't believe", "I should fake belief to be accepted", "I have to go even if I don't believe", "it's not OK to question religious authority." do not sink in with young children because they are not asking the kinds of questions that those statements are answers to. Belief about the origins of the universe, or what social values are better, those are not early childhood questions. They are pre-adolescent and adolescent questions, and there will be quite a bit of social scaffolding around those ideas already once the child does start asking them. They won't typically be looking to parents to answer those questions either, since that's the nature of adolescence. So, a child questioning things for himself isn't something parents have to create, rather, it's something that happens naturally, even if the parents try to stop it. On the other hand, not having a stable family unit is something even the youngest children are able to sense, even well before they can grasp the social particulars around what is happening. The results of raising a child in a broken home are more foundational than any kind of superstition.
When your kid is 12-14, you can have that "Think for yourself, question authority" discussion. And the answer will likely be the same as it is for every parent, "Screw you, Dad!". But what's much harder to deal with is if at that age the kid doesn't want to talk to you, doesn't respect your authority, and doesn't consider you a parent, all because of some conflict you and his mom decided to have 10 years before over something he didn't even understand at the time.
I think you need to separate here what's a statement of values for you from what you value for your child.
Or daddy still goes to church because religion happens to be full of pretty decent messages and moral teachings. Daddy still goes to church to support your learning about the religion so you can decide for yourself...
But religion happens to be full of pretty awful messages and moral teachings, too, and I can't support that anymore. I don't need a really old book to tell me what's right and wrong, and I believe that message is more important to send than the one you came up with.
How religious is your wife? Does she go to church every Sunday?
We haven't been going to church in a while. The churches in this local area were all objectionable on some level. There's one that's about an hour away that we both really loved going to, it's just not practical. Also, my mom goes to that church and my wife and her don't get along very well.
That said, her beliefs are still very strong. She rejects the idea of evolution. She believes the Bible is inerrant with the single exception that they weren't "seven literal days."
You should be very prepared for the possibility that she will leave you and probably try to take your son away from you in the process.
I understand this is a possibility, but I sort of preempted it. Whether she leaves, the most she'll get is 50% custody and there is nothing she can do to remove me from our son's life.
I definitely think you have to keep in mind that when she committed to you and the two of you first had children, she thought you shared her beliefs. You can't expect her to change them right away because you did.
I don't expect her to change her beliefs. Like I said, I don't want to get in the way of her preaching to our child. I respect her beliefs for what they are. All I'm asking for is that she do the same for me.
I guess what it comes down to is what are you willing to compromise on?
My compromise is allowing her to teach her beliefs. She can drag the kid to church. She can proselytize all she wants.
I'm only asking that she compromise by letting me do the same. Really I guess I'm demanding this, and the question is whether this will drive an irreconcilable wedge between us.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
But religion happens to be full of pretty awful messages and moral teachings, too, and I can't support that anymore. I don't need a really old book to tell me what's right and wrong, and I believe that message is more important to send than the one you came up with.
Trying to put it simply: I'm still pretty sure there is a god; I just don't buy the story that the Bible sells anymore.
We haven't been going to church in a while. The churches in this local area were all objectionable on some level. There's one that's about an hour away that we both really loved going to, it's just not practical. Also, my mom goes to that church and my wife and her don't get along very well.
That said, her beliefs are still very strong. She rejects the idea of evolution. She believes the Bible is inerrant with the single exception that they weren't "seven literal days."
Ahh... so she's the no evolution, gays are heathens, pre-marital sex is for ****s kind of religious...
Unfortunately I have no idea how to interact with that level of belief... It's one thing to reason with someone that has already reasoned that the Bible isnt word for word correct... it's another thing entirely to try to reason with someone who literally believes that those words are gospel. It also makes it a lot harder to sit by and watch when out right hate is being preached and taught.
Extra unfortunate is that it sounds like your views wouldnt even be a huge deal to the majority of "religious" women.
I'm sorry man... I wish I had some advice other than be prepared to get a good lawyer.
Their religion has a requirement (essentially; I'm paraphrasing) to proselytize, while yours does not. The stakes for them are higher than they are for you. The costs they see in their cost/benefit analytic are higher than the ones you see. I don't think you would want to play tug of war with your son's religion with your family. Ultimately, it will be his choice and responsibility.
On one hand, I wish the OP could take a stand now because on the meta-level, belief should not be handled like this, with one party being forced to tip-toe and concede their position because they "care less". You should be able to express what you believe without fear of repercussion, especially from your family, and teach your children as much.
As much as I dislike religion for its ability to make people so unreasonable, it seems obvious to me that a broken home is a far larger problem than the one at hand. But, that also should be obvious to her and her family. Would they really allow this to become an serious issue if you weren't belligerent about it? If you warned them not to undermine your status as the child's father?
I was raised in a similar situation. It didn't cause problems, my dad acknowledged the realpolitik of religion and occasionally went to church, but as I got older I think I started to recognize a bit of smugness in his attitude towards the whole thing. When I talked to him about it, he usually deflected, never denying or confirming anything. Presumably he was in a similar situation, although my moms family wasn't as crazy. Like I said it wasn't a big problem, but it was always a point of suppressed tension.
Have you talked with them about it as adults, something like "look, I don't believe what you believe, and I can't outright lie to my child about that, but for his/her sake let's just both back off and let the chips fall where they may?"
The strength of the belief is irrelevant here, I think you're mistaking a fear of zealotry with a fear of being left out, or to not have your opinion or beliefs valued, which is a reasonable fear for Dechs.
Apologies, I completely butchered the message behind that (I've been doing this more often recently...)
I basically meant to say that for Dech Kaison's wife, this is quite literally a battle for her child's soul. For Dech Kaison, it's probably not quite that big.
I think it's wrong to misrepresent myself, to my son or otherwise. If I were to participate, I won't be able to hide the fact that I don't believe. That sends the wrong messages. "Daddy still goes to church even though he doesn't believe" can be interpreted many ways, from "I should fake belief to be accepted" to "I have to go even if I don't believe" to "it's not OK to question religious authority."
Again, totally faking it is not an option here.
Or it could mean that daddy respects mommy's opinion and is willing to put in the time to be with her and whatnot.
There's so many ways you can turn this.
When I tell my child to question everything, I want him to know I mean it. Everything. I don't want to say "everything but X." Whether that X is religion, politics, food pyramids, bigfoot or the moon landing.
Bet you this won't work the way you want it to. Everyone has a sacred cow. Yours appears to be that an inquisitive and thoughtful mind can overcome all.
But religion happens to be full of pretty awful messages and moral teachings, too, and I can't support that anymore. I don't need a really old book to tell me what's right and wrong, and I believe that message is more important to send than the one you came up with.
Oh come now. There's so many things in society that sends awful moral messages. It really boggles my mind whenever people talk about religion as though it's the cause of bad things in the world. It truly does.
I know you're not doing this, but the principle that you seem to be applying (religion is not something that I can support because it has some really appalling moral beliefs) is just a poisonous pit-fall. Either you're not willing to apply that principle to other things, making you a hypocrite, or you have to and you realize that entire principle simply doesn't work without forcing you to support nothing at all.
I want to ask you a question that I asked Zaphsarsz (or however you spell that fellow's name) in another thread that he never got to answering-
Do you believe that our moral standards and beliefs came from a bunch of people debating them and coming to a conclusion, or from someplace deep in our heart and subconscious?
But religion happens to be full of pretty awful messages and moral teachings, too, and I can't support that anymore. I don't need a really old book to tell me what's right and wrong, and I believe that message is more important to send than the one you came up with.
Trying to put it simply: I'm still pretty sure there is a god; I just don't buy the story that the Bible sells anymore.
We haven't been going to church in a while. The churches in this local area were all objectionable on some level. There's one that's about an hour away that we both really loved going to, it's just not practical. Also, my mom goes to that church and my wife and her don't get along very well.
That said, her beliefs are still very strong. She rejects the idea of evolution. She believes the Bible is inerrant with the single exception that they weren't "seven literal days."
I understand this is a possibility, but I sort of preempted it. Whether she leaves, the most she'll get is 50% custody and there is nothing she can do to remove me from our son's life.
I don't expect her to change her beliefs. Like I said, I don't want to get in the way of her preaching to our child. I respect her beliefs for what they are. All I'm asking for is that she do the same for me.
My compromise is allowing her to teach her beliefs. She can drag the kid to church. She can proselytize all she wants.
I'm only asking that she compromise by letting me do the same. Really I guess I'm demanding this, and the question is whether this will drive an irreconcilable wedge between us.
These statements lead me to conclude that you're very much not ambivalent on the issue of religion, and instead, you seem to hold the rejection of religion as a strong personal value for yourself.
I'm not going to debate the worth of that value versus that of any other value. What's important to realize though is that taking this stance is serving your own interests on that point and not the interests of your child. And on that point too, I'm not going to give an opinion on which you should serve over which. I'm not going to say that, as a rule, you should always take your child over yourself. You just need to appreciate the consequences and exercise accountability for your choice. The consequences of each course should be fairly obvious, and a mature person will be able to choose between them.
It's just important to take accountability for putting yourself at this crossroads, that's all. I'll agree with the above that everyone has a sacred cow. You choose yours. You do so in full contemplation of the consequences. Don't make the mistake of thinking that it has anything to do with your position on the merits. There are a lot of people who would agree with your position with conviction, and it would look more or less the same as the conviction that your wife holds for her position. What matters here is the contemplation of the consequences.
I think you need to relax a bit. Just focus on being a good parent and if you raise him right, he'll come to respect you regardless of your beliefs. A proper educational upbringing and familial support goes a long way and you seem like the guy that can do well to help your son on both aspects.
Long story short: I've recently decided that I can no longer identify as a Christian and I've essentially 'gone public' with it.
The problem is that this revelation comes at a very inopportune time: I now have a four month old child. Now, he's not old enough yet, but when the time comes, naturally, I want to be open about my beliefs with my son. I'm not opposed to him being exposed to Christianity. I don't plan to tell him I know I'm right because frankly, I don't. My wife is not so open minded; neither is much of my family, to be honest. At this point, two things have become apparent to me about the future.
First is that my family will see it as defense of the child to telling him I'm wrong. I understand why, of course, being that I was from that faith. It's just that, well, he's my son. I can't have my entire family telling him I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about.
Second is that, more than just with my son, they've taken it up as a mission to re-convert me. It's not entirely apparent to them right now, but I do not see that happening. I don't know what's going to happen as that becomes more and more clear.
I'm really not sure what I can do here and I'm starting to feel like an enemy, even in my own home.
I don't think you should relax about this. Honestly, it is like reading my own life right now.
I have a two year old son. My entire family, from my parents to my siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, and grandparents on both sides are all deeply religious. My girlfriend, the mother of my son, is also very religious.
I am an atheist.
I really only began to self-identify as an atheist about two years ago. This was in quiet, hushed tones to no one or people on the internet. Recently, I've become a lot more vocal about it. I have never felt more attacked by my own family, more marginalized, and honestly more guilted over my own place in life so much as I have been now. My father and I can't hang out without it becoming a heated conversation, and my girlfriend has basically called me a liar, stating that when we met I was a Christian, and I basically lied about it.
It's an interesting position to be in, because honestly the more time that goes by the more passionate I find myself becoming about my own atheism.
It is really hard to be in this spot. I look at my own son and I think about just indoctrinated I was as a kid. I worry that my family is going to do the same to him. I just remind myself that I am his father, and that no matter what I will be his father, an important part of his life. It is important to me that he gets to choose what he wants to believe in. One thing I told his mother was that she got to choose what she believes in; she was raised in an atheist household and chose to become a Christian.
I did not get to choose. My parents chose it for me.
Anyway, if you ever want to talk/compare notes/vent, feel free to PM me anytime about it. It's been an interesting journey, these last few years.
I did not get to choose. My parents chose it for me.
The very fact that you're an atheist when everyone around you is Christian means that you got to choose.
Clearly just because you grow up in a heavily Christian household doesn't mean that you become some unthinking zealot, as evidenced by both you and Dech Kaison.
Why in the world do you think that your children are just going to automatically get indoctrinated and become some sort of religious nut? Have you ever considered that you're being irrational and thinking too harshly on the issue on the account of the fact that it is your son that the two of you are fighting over?
The very fact that you're an atheist when everyone around you is Christian means that you got to choose.
Clearly just because you grow up in a heavily Christian household doesn't mean that you become some unthinking zealot, as evidenced by both you and Dech Kaison.
Why in the world do you think that your children are just going to automatically get indoctrinated and become some sort of religious nut? Have you ever considered that you're being irrational and thinking too harshly on the issue on the account of the fact that it is your son that the two of you are fighting over?
Now, at the age of thirty. And even then with terror and fear.
And yes, yes it did. When I was 20 I had absolutely no doubt in my mind that there was a God. I believed unquestioningly, and it took years for me to even be able to admit that I was an atheist for the first time. Even as I found myself doubting my own faith, I saw my world around me crashing in, my family turning their backs on me, saying that I was lost, that the devil had a hold of me.
I can choose now.
I should have been able to choose then. Instead all I felt was the fear of condemnation from the people I loved. Even now my girlfriend is always looking for people to try and 'get me back on the right path.' Cornered by pastors and religious family members, all waving the flag of 'Christian love.'
There was no choice when I was a kid. We went to church every Sunday morning, every Sunday evening, and every Wednesday. If you didn't want to go, too bad. Bible study every Saturday night. If you wanted to do something else, too bad.
And yes, yes it did. When I was 20 I had absolutely no doubt in my mind that there was a God. I believed unquestioningly, and it took years for me to even be able to admit that I was an atheist for the first time. Even as I found myself doubting my own faith, I saw my world around me crashing in, my family turning their backs on me, saying that I was lost, that the devil had a hold of me.
And this is indoctrination?
Man, you have a warped up perception of what that word means. I think people use that word too easily.
I should have been able to choose then. Instead all I felt was the fear of condemnation from the people I loved. Even now my girlfriend is always looking for people to try and 'get me back on the right path.' Cornered by pastors and religious family members, all waving the flag of 'Christian love.'
Which is the point. You are an adult, presumably living alone and away from your family.
I don't quite understand why you're begrudging the fact that you had to wrestle with your faith and your belief in your twenties to be able to come to a conclusion that satisfies you when you're thirty. Life-changing decisions take a long time.
You are independent, and you can choose. You made a choice that separated you from your parents and loved ones, and obviously there are consequences to that.
You're making it look at though this is all their fault.
And of course they'd try to make you a Christian again. As far as they're concerned, you're going to hell for eternity if you keep this up. Based on their beliefs, they KNOW this. Based on yours, you KNOW that won't happen.
Obviously there is no middle ground here, and that's why this is such a touchy subject.
It is really hard to be in this spot. I look at my own son and I think about just indoctrinated I was as a kid. I worry that my family is going to do the same to him. I just remind myself that I am his father, and that no matter what I will be his father, an important part of his life. It is important to me that he gets to choose what he wants to believe in. One thing I told his mother was that she got to choose what she believes in; she was raised in an atheist household and chose to become a Christian.
I'm not a parent, so feel free to ignore my advice but have you tried talking to your son? He might be too young to understand but when he does, it would be very beneficial to have him discuss what he thinks. I've noticed that you and Dech didn't mention discussing things with the child in question (well I just read the OP and nothing pass that, he might've mentioned it).
It is important that you communicate your values to your son, chances are, you aren't a bad person and your son needs to know that. And don't just tell him what you think is right, you have to show him through action. Building a relationship with your child is a two way street, you learn stuff from him and he learns from you. I can say with enough confidence that he'll prefer that over indoctrination which is just a way one street (indoctrinator to indoctrinee)
Man, you have a warped up perception of what that word means. I think people use that word too easily.
Yes, it is indoctrination. When you are born, you are forced into your parents beliefs. It happens all the time, and that is exactly what it is. What else would you call it, exactly?
Which is the point. You are an adult, presumably living alone and away from your family.
They are still my family, and I still value them. It would be nice if they could simply accept my unbelief, but they can't, thus turning every interaction with them into a debate about faith.
You are independent, and you can choose. You made a choice that separated you from your parents and loved ones, and obviously there are consequences to that.
I didn't choose, actually. They chose to distance themselves from me because of my atheism. There is a very real distinction, and you are reading a little more into it than I wrote; I don't have a problem with people being Christian. It's the other way around.
You're making it look at though this is all their fault.
It kind of is. I was a child, my parents believed a thing, and thus worked to ensure I also believed in that thing. I see it all the time; the church that my girlfriend attends is full of parents pushing their own religious beliefs on their children. Again, indoctrination. What else would you call that?
And of course they'd try to make you a Christian again. As far as they're concerned, you're going to hell for eternity if they keep this up this. Based on their beliefs, they KNOW this. Based on yours, you KNOW that won't happen.
It isn't just about their concern for my eternal soul. If it was, I could politely accept the prayers and concern. It goes beyond that though. There is real bitterness involved, real anger. Vitriolic, despair-filled anger. You are right, I am an adult and I made my choice, but I should be free to make that choice and it should be respected. It rarely ever is, and if they don't condemn me for it I get the pity stare, or the comments about what a bleak existence my life must be. That's fine, I've heard that from strangers before, but my own family?
Obviously there is no middle ground here, and that's why this is such a touchy subject.
It is a touchy subject, yes. Christians are, by their very nature, set up to try and spread their religion, and when one of the herd steps out of line it does become a problem, especially if it is a family member. As you said, it goes beyond simply being upset that they don't believe in the same thing anymore; they are truly concerned about my soul being damned. It's the tactics that they resort to, that's where I struggle. And yes, a lot of what I talked about referenced my childhood, but my childhood was spent deep in the faith. Am I bitter about that? Yeah, I am. There are a lot of things about myself that I did not explore or even begin to understand until I was much older simply because the religion I grew up in viewed them as wrong and sinful. There are a lot of things that I should have figured out years ago that I am only now starting to really understand. Yes, that makes me somewhat bitter and frustrated.
And yes, as an adult I had the right to choose, but what I am trying to convey here is that it was a very difficult choice to make.
Clearly the mother, presumably your Christian gf? has no say.
Yup. That makes sense. Your beliefs override theirs. Simply because you KNOW you're right.
Again, you aren't really reading the last thing I said. I said he'd have a choice. A choice to choose whether or not he wanted to believe in the Christian God, the Muslim God, Odin, Thor, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or any other crazy thing he might want to believe in. He'll also have the choice to choose to be an atheist at whatever age he decides that he wants to believe or not believe.
His mother is just as much an influence in his life as I am. My fear is that with a massive family comprised of mostly Christians, that he'll face a similar problem I did as a child. I want him to be able to decide, or hell, not decide, when he wants, not when he is an adult.
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I'm not a parent, so feel free to ignore my advice but have you tried talking to your son? He might be too young to understand but when he does, it would be very beneficial to have him discuss what he thinks. I've noticed that you and Dech didn't mention discussing things with the child in question (well I just read the OP and nothing pass that, he might've mentioned it).
It is important that you communicate your values to your son, chances are, you aren't a bad person and your son needs to know that. And don't just tell him what you think is right, you have to show him through action. Building a relationship with your child is a two way street, you learn stuff from him and he learns from you. I can say with enough confidence that he'll prefer that over indoctrination which is just a way one street (indoctrinator to indoctrinee)
He's two right now, so... Yeah, not too much comprehension on his part at the moment.
I am going to have these kinds of conversations with him, but it is hard to know when the right time to talk to him about it will be.
The thing is, my girlfriend has already drawn a clear line in the sand when it comes to our son. She had a conversation with her pastor about this, and he said that I was a negative influence in our son's life, that all I would do is confuse him. So she wants me to keep my mouth shut about it all until he is much older.
I probably won't do that. I probably wouldn't do that even if I was okay with it, because there's something about it that just feels wrong.
He's two right now, so... Yeah, not too much comprehension on his part at the moment.
I am going to have these kinds of conversations with him, but it is hard to know when the right time to talk to him about it will be.
Try his kindergarten years. They learn quite a bit about being a good person during those years. Sharing, respecting each others, listening when others are speaking, etc.
The thing is, my girlfriend has already drawn a clear line in the sand when it comes to our son. She had a conversation with her pastor about this, and he said that I was a negative influence in our son's life, that all I would do is confuse him. So she wants me to keep my mouth shut about it all until he is much older.
It's unfortunate that your pastor is very conservative, the pastor at the church that my mom and I used to frequent was quite liberal and more than understanding on fostering the individual over indoctrination. My only advice is to continue being respectful of those around you even if they don't share your beliefs. The fact that you view them with distrust gives a militant vibe which isn't a good way to approach your relationship with your girlfriend and your family. Be firm in your beliefs, don't be hostile.
I probably won't do that. I probably wouldn't do that even if I was okay with it, because there's something about it that just feels wrong.
You need to have a proper conversation with your GF on how to raise a child. Don't just say "I want to let him know about atheism". That comes out as completely counterproductive which is what your gf and her pastor seems to think. I think you should try "I want to teach my son how to be a good person capable of making his own decisions".
Yes, it is indoctrination. When you are born, you are forced into your parents beliefs. It happens all the time, and that is exactly what it is. What else would you call it, exactly?
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It kind of is. I was a child, my parents believed a thing, and thus worked to ensure I also believed in that thing. I see it all the time; the church that my girlfriend attends is full of parents pushing their own religious beliefs on their children. Again, indoctrination. What else would you call that?
Is the following indoctrination?
-Having your children play a team sport because you want them to.
-Having your children study in school and go off to college because you want them to.
-Having your children believe that there is only one way of life, and that is the American way.
-Having your children believe in certain political concepts because that's the household belief.
They are still my family, and I still value them. It would be nice if they could simply accept my unbelief, but they can't, thus turning every interaction with them into a debate about faith.
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I didn't choose, actually. They chose to distance themselves from me because of my atheism. There is a very real distinction, and you are reading a little more into it than I wrote; I don't have a problem with people being Christian. It's the other way around.
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It isn't just about their concern for my eternal soul. If it was, I could politely accept the prayers and concern. It goes beyond that though. There is real bitterness involved, real anger. Vitriolic, despair-filled anger. You are right, I am an adult and I made my choice, but I should be free to make that choice and it should be respected. It rarely ever is, and if they don't condemn me for it I get the pity stare, or the comments about what a bleak existence my life must be. That's fine, I've heard that from strangers before, but my own family?
1) Because they feel betrayed by you.
2) Let's make a hypothetical. Imagine that your son just said he's going to go off become a crack cocaine addict and plans to either die by some crime or go off to jail by the time he's thirty. How will you respond?
It is a touchy subject, yes. Christians are, by their very nature, set up to try and spread their religion, and when one of the herd steps out of line it does become a problem, especially if it is a family member.
No, you misunderstood.
I find it a touchy subject because it is an opinion-based issue that has no possible way of resolution unless either one of the parties involved just give up.
There is no logically consistent way that you can prove that hell doesn't exist, and there is no logically consistent way that your parents can prove that you will go to hell if you don't believe.
When it's an issue based purely on human emotions and opinion, there is no winning.
There are a lot of things about myself that I did not explore or even begin to understand until I was much older simply because the religion I grew up in viewed them as wrong and sinful. There are a lot of things that I should have figured out years ago that I am only now starting to really understand. Yes, that makes me somewhat bitter and frustrated.
Again, you aren't really reading the last thing I said. I said he'd have a choice. A choice to choose whether or not he wanted to believe in the Christian God, the Muslim God, Odin, Thor, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or any other crazy thing he might want to believe in. He'll also have the choice to choose to be an atheist at whatever age he decides that he wants to believe or not believe.
You're right. I misread that statement.
That being said, I think you're making a serious mistake by thinking that coming to a decision about something the sooner=the better.
I get that you're not happy with the fact that you had to deal with your faith even though you didn't really believe in it for some time. But, that very act greatly influenced the way you are now. This very conversation is representative of that.
We constantly grow by being put to the test and having our understanding of things challenged. As I see it, there is no actual benefit for your son to decide what to believe in at an early age. That by no means that he won't become an atheist later in life, or a Christian, or a Satanist, or a Muslim, or w.e.
Basically, he might change his mind later on. Maybe he might be an atheist like you in his younger years. Then suddenly when he's forty he suddenly becomes a die-hard Christian. The fact that he made a choice earlier on is irrelevant in this case.
As sch, the fact that he has the ability to make the difficult choice to follow what he believes to be right, like you did, is what is relevant.
Ironically, this very concept of following what one believes to be right is a potential pit-fall. Look at John Walker Lindh. I wonder if anyone still remembers him.
@magickware99; I want to reply to everything you said, however it is almost midnight and I have to be up in four hours. I will try and formulate a more complete reply then, but one part I did want to address now, and would literally keep me up the rest of the night if I didn't;
That being said, I think you're making a serious mistake by thinking that coming to a decision about something the sooner=the better.
This isn't quite what I was alluding to. I wasn't saying that I wanted him to make up his mind at an earlier age than I did, only that he should be able to if he chose to. I specifically said
He'll also have the choice to choose to be an atheist at whatever age he decides that he wants to believe or not believe.
The issue is really more complicated than just that though. I honestly try to respect everyone's belief systems. I love my girlfriend even though we do not see eye to eye on the matter of god, but you know what? I really don't agree with the principles or tenets of the Christian religion, especially the one she subscribes to. It is anti-science, anti-homosexual, and honestly it stands against a lot of things that I myself stand for. Even my girlfriend believes in, for example, gay marriage, and has really struggled with reconciling that with her church. The science part she honestly doesn't agree with me about, and that fundamentally bothers me.
The thing is, he can believe in all of that and I would love him just as much then as I do now while he has no real beliefs in any sort of god. At the most he believes that Elmo is a real person. I'm okay with that, lol.
Anyway, I am not so much here to argue about any of this, and rather express that I understood where Dechs was coming from. I'm happy to continue debating the points, however. Just not at midnight, as I feel like I might be rambling rather than posting coherent thoughts.
Hey Dechs, I know I'm slightly late to the party, but I understand this situation from quite the reverse. I grew up quite agnostic (which is what my immediate family was, with only my maternal grandmother having any over Christian beliefs), but converted to the LDS church. My wife and I discussed it before we had children and came to the same idea you basically did. We won't discourage learning other religions, because that choice is important. The problem, if I'm reading right, is that you're worried that your family will say you're wrong. And I agree with that sentiment.
I think it's important that you meet with your family (either as a whole or if you don't want to feel ganged up on, individually) and explain that you don't mind them telling them about their beliefs, but that they can't be making it an "Us vs. Him" battle. Without knowing more, I would suggest starting with your wife, because hopefully, she'll recognize the need for you to be respected as the father. Explain to her that you're not going to say "Mommy's wrong, this is what's right", but rather "Mommy does believe that, and here's what I believe." As I said, hopefully she'll recognize that you don't want to undermine her, but offer the choice. With that, she'll stand firm with you that your other family members cannot undermine you. She can agree that they'll continue to teach your child, but they will not say you're wrong. If a family member insists on saying you're wrong, you (along with your wife) will have to say that access to the child will be much more restricted. It's one of those things where you hate to do it, but it's important for your family as a whole that the parental dynamics are maintained.
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There was no choice when I was a kid. We went to church every Sunday morning, every Sunday evening, and every Wednesday. If you didn't want to go, too bad. Bible study every Saturday night. If you wanted to do something else, too bad.
My son won't get a 'too bad.'
That's the sort of strict religiosity that also turns people off from organized religion. Some people love the structure, but at some point you're only like reading the Bible? There's more to life than reading a rehash of the Bible.
Seriously, this is why you end up with a Bible thumper you book them into more subjects.
You introduce them to Latin works, you introduce them to history, you introduce them to various other cultures.
It's like I told my wife, "I'm not a fan of organized religion, you are, but they're going to learn about more things than what you knew at their age." And we were happy with the results, by focusing on having literate children that are able to comprehend complex subjects and know that beliefs take time to acquire and think and act through.
Or as I always said, "Oh did you ask your Sunday school teacher about X?" And frankly teacher found me annoying as hell. I came once for a kids function thing a while back ago, and the general feeling was "the kids ask a lot of difficult questions which tends to make things go off topic." The thing is if the wife's a Christian realist, then go full on into the wars and everything else and tell it like it is.
I'd like to clarity something here. I'm not against my son being religious. I don't care what he chooses, even if he chooses to not be inquisitive at all, just so long as he gets that choice. All my life, it has been wrong to ask questions. It has been wrong to disagree with parts of the message. It has been wrong not to go to church, even though I don't agree with everything. It has been wrong to want to know about other religions. I will not let my son grow up under that level of influence.
Just as an update, things have only been getting worse. My wife and brother are still the only ones who seem to know about my change of beliefs. I haven't spoken to my brother a second time yet, but I have had a few more conversations with my wife. I'm not getting through to her at all.
She has no sense of compromise about this. She's demanding that I never discuss my beliefs with our son and that I lie to him if he ever does ask faith questions. She has started trying to restrict which friends I'm in contact with (the ones she knows are atheists - never mind that I'm not an atheist). The conversations I've had with her lately have usually ended with her resorting to insults.
"You don't love him enough [to lie to him about my faith]."
"You just made up what you believe."
"You believe stupid things that don't make any sense."
"Well, you just believe anything you're told these days."
"Because I don't want you to hang out with him so you can hear him say 'yay, you're an idiot like me now.'"
I'm trying to hang on here, but I don't know how much of this I can take.
I'd like to clarity something here. I'm not against my son being religious. I don't care what he chooses, even if he chooses to not be inquisitive at all, just so long as he gets that choice. All my life, it has been wrong to ask questions. It has been wrong to disagree with parts of the message. It has been wrong not to go to church, even though I don't agree with everything. It has been wrong to want to know about other religions. I will not let my son grow up under that level of influence.
Just as an update, things have only been getting worse. My wife and brother are still the only ones who seem to know about my change of beliefs. I haven't spoken to my brother a second time yet, but I have had a few more conversations with my wife. I'm not getting through to her at all.
She has no sense of compromise about this. She's demanding that I never discuss my beliefs with our son and that I lie to him if he ever does ask faith questions. She has started trying to restrict which friends I'm in contact with (the ones she knows are atheists - never mind that I'm not an atheist). The conversations I've had with her lately have usually ended with her resorting to insults.
"You don't love him enough [to lie to him about my faith]."
"You just made up what you believe."
"You believe stupid things that don't make any sense."
"Well, you just believe anything you're told these days."
"Because I don't want you to hang out with him so you can hear him say 'yay, you're an idiot like me now.'"
I'm trying to hang on here, but I don't know how much of this I can take.
I'll be honest, if its something you can afford (or if you have some other free option) this is the time to talk to a marriage counselor, not an on line message board.
If you really love her and want to fight for the relationship, then thats what you need to do. Posting here is no doubt therapeutic, but doesn't provide any more advice beyond what has already been given.
I'll be honest, if its something you can afford (or if you have some other free option) this is the time to talk to a marriage counselor, not an on line message board.
If you really love her and want to fight for the relationship, then thats what you need to do. Posting here is no doubt therapeutic, but doesn't provide any more advice beyond what has already been given.
Agreed. If this continues to be a major point of contention and strain on the relationship, it's worth going. You can always continue to vent here, but I doubt anyone on this board is qualified to help you with this specific problem at this point.
I would add that I think you're just still dealing with the knee-jerk anger reaction here. I think you'll find it becomes less of a knock-down, drag out issue as time goes on as long as you're patient with her. Whatever you do, don't resort to insulting her back, that's couple's therapy rule number one.
The strength of the belief is irrelevant here, I think you're mistaking a fear of zealotry with a fear of being left out, or to not have your opinion or beliefs valued, which is a reasonable fear for Dechs.
We need to take it elsewhere if you want to keep going down this line, but I do see the problem you describe very acutely. I've thought about it a lot so that when it comes to my children, who will be coming coming from two very different racial, ethnic and religious backgrounds (4th generation Irish-Italian Catholic 'New Yorker' turned Agnostic and 1st generation Indian Hindu) will understand why people believe some things rather than others. But if you're working under the assumption that I don't realize the inherent biases and indoctrination that occurs with just raising children, believe me I do.
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I think it's wrong to misrepresent myself, to my son or otherwise. If I were to participate, I won't be able to hide the fact that I don't believe. That sends the wrong messages. "Daddy still goes to church even though he doesn't believe" can be interpreted many ways, from "I should fake belief to be accepted" to "I have to go even if I don't believe" to "it's not OK to question religious authority."
Again, totally faking it is not an option here.
As Jay mentioned, indoctrinated is a loaded term. To me, indoctrinated implies at least some amount of brainwashing, repeating messages and discouraging debate. I do want to prevent that.
But I won't go so far as to say he can't go to church or read the bible. I want him to go to church. I want him to see things from that point of view. I want him to decide for himself if it's something he agrees with.
My wife seems to be mortally afraid of that last part. She's of the opinion that parents' beliefs are going to be the most influential parts on a child's. I don't disagree with her. In her mind, I'm going to be the reason the kid will grow up and not be a Christian. In her mind, I'm the reason the kid will go to hell. In her mind, I "don't love him enough."
As I said before, I won't be able to hide who I am. I won't fake being a Christian to keep the peace.
When I tell my child to question everything, I want him to know I mean it. Everything. I don't want to say "everything but X." Whether that X is religion, politics, food pyramids, bigfoot or the moon landing.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Or daddy still goes to church because religion happens to be full of pretty decent messages and moral teachings. Daddy still goes to church to support your learning about the religion so you can decide for yourself...
How not-religious are you? Are you an Atheist? Are you agnostic? There are a lot of agnostic views that can be a lot less shocking to someone than flat out un-belief... for example "if there is a God, God probably is not too worried about whether or not I believe in him as long as I live a good moral life." or "There are so many religions who am I to say which one is correct? I just dont believe in any particular religion". Those may be easier positions to swallow if explained carefully. Depending on....
How religious is your wife? Does she go to church every Sunday? Depending on how religious she is, to be perfectly honest you probably dont have much of a choice. This very easily could be something that you and your wife will never be able to reconcile. In her mind you probably went from perfect, to unfit for a relationship at the snap of a finger... Not only was she thinking she'd spend her whole life with you but also all eternity... now you're going to hell and she'll be damned (no pun intended) if she lets you take her or your son with you. You should be very prepared for the possibility that she will leave you and probably try to take your son away from you in the process.
That so perfectly encapsulates the problem that I honestly don't know what to say.
I guess what it comes down to is what are you willing to compromise on? As I stated, my friend who was met with the same problem with his long-term girlfriend just last month (in every other way this was the woman he wanted to marry).
I definitely think you have to keep in mind that when she committed to you and the two of you first had children, she thought you shared her beliefs. You can't expect her to change them right away because you did.
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Put simply, statements like "Daddy still goes to church even though he doesn't believe", "I should fake belief to be accepted", "I have to go even if I don't believe", "it's not OK to question religious authority." do not sink in with young children because they are not asking the kinds of questions that those statements are answers to. Belief about the origins of the universe, or what social values are better, those are not early childhood questions. They are pre-adolescent and adolescent questions, and there will be quite a bit of social scaffolding around those ideas already once the child does start asking them. They won't typically be looking to parents to answer those questions either, since that's the nature of adolescence. So, a child questioning things for himself isn't something parents have to create, rather, it's something that happens naturally, even if the parents try to stop it. On the other hand, not having a stable family unit is something even the youngest children are able to sense, even well before they can grasp the social particulars around what is happening. The results of raising a child in a broken home are more foundational than any kind of superstition.
When your kid is 12-14, you can have that "Think for yourself, question authority" discussion. And the answer will likely be the same as it is for every parent, "Screw you, Dad!". But what's much harder to deal with is if at that age the kid doesn't want to talk to you, doesn't respect your authority, and doesn't consider you a parent, all because of some conflict you and his mom decided to have 10 years before over something he didn't even understand at the time.
I think you need to separate here what's a statement of values for you from what you value for your child.
But religion happens to be full of pretty awful messages and moral teachings, too, and I can't support that anymore. I don't need a really old book to tell me what's right and wrong, and I believe that message is more important to send than the one you came up with.
Trying to put it simply: I'm still pretty sure there is a god; I just don't buy the story that the Bible sells anymore.
We haven't been going to church in a while. The churches in this local area were all objectionable on some level. There's one that's about an hour away that we both really loved going to, it's just not practical. Also, my mom goes to that church and my wife and her don't get along very well.
That said, her beliefs are still very strong. She rejects the idea of evolution. She believes the Bible is inerrant with the single exception that they weren't "seven literal days."
I understand this is a possibility, but I sort of preempted it. Whether she leaves, the most she'll get is 50% custody and there is nothing she can do to remove me from our son's life.
I don't expect her to change her beliefs. Like I said, I don't want to get in the way of her preaching to our child. I respect her beliefs for what they are. All I'm asking for is that she do the same for me.
My compromise is allowing her to teach her beliefs. She can drag the kid to church. She can proselytize all she wants.
I'm only asking that she compromise by letting me do the same. Really I guess I'm demanding this, and the question is whether this will drive an irreconcilable wedge between us.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Ahh... so she's the no evolution, gays are heathens, pre-marital sex is for ****s kind of religious...
Unfortunately I have no idea how to interact with that level of belief... It's one thing to reason with someone that has already reasoned that the Bible isnt word for word correct... it's another thing entirely to try to reason with someone who literally believes that those words are gospel. It also makes it a lot harder to sit by and watch when out right hate is being preached and taught.
Extra unfortunate is that it sounds like your views wouldnt even be a huge deal to the majority of "religious" women.
I'm sorry man... I wish I had some advice other than be prepared to get a good lawyer.
On one hand, I wish the OP could take a stand now because on the meta-level, belief should not be handled like this, with one party being forced to tip-toe and concede their position because they "care less". You should be able to express what you believe without fear of repercussion, especially from your family, and teach your children as much.
As much as I dislike religion for its ability to make people so unreasonable, it seems obvious to me that a broken home is a far larger problem than the one at hand. But, that also should be obvious to her and her family. Would they really allow this to become an serious issue if you weren't belligerent about it? If you warned them not to undermine your status as the child's father?
I was raised in a similar situation. It didn't cause problems, my dad acknowledged the realpolitik of religion and occasionally went to church, but as I got older I think I started to recognize a bit of smugness in his attitude towards the whole thing. When I talked to him about it, he usually deflected, never denying or confirming anything. Presumably he was in a similar situation, although my moms family wasn't as crazy. Like I said it wasn't a big problem, but it was always a point of suppressed tension.
Have you talked with them about it as adults, something like "look, I don't believe what you believe, and I can't outright lie to my child about that, but for his/her sake let's just both back off and let the chips fall where they may?"
Apologies, I completely butchered the message behind that (I've been doing this more often recently...)
I basically meant to say that for Dech Kaison's wife, this is quite literally a battle for her child's soul. For Dech Kaison, it's probably not quite that big.
Or it could mean that daddy respects mommy's opinion and is willing to put in the time to be with her and whatnot.
There's so many ways you can turn this.
Bet you this won't work the way you want it to. Everyone has a sacred cow. Yours appears to be that an inquisitive and thoughtful mind can overcome all.
Oh come now. There's so many things in society that sends awful moral messages. It really boggles my mind whenever people talk about religion as though it's the cause of bad things in the world. It truly does.
I know you're not doing this, but the principle that you seem to be applying (religion is not something that I can support because it has some really appalling moral beliefs) is just a poisonous pit-fall. Either you're not willing to apply that principle to other things, making you a hypocrite, or you have to and you realize that entire principle simply doesn't work without forcing you to support nothing at all.
I want to ask you a question that I asked Zaphsarsz (or however you spell that fellow's name) in another thread that he never got to answering-
Do you believe that our moral standards and beliefs came from a bunch of people debating them and coming to a conclusion, or from someplace deep in our heart and subconscious?
These statements lead me to conclude that you're very much not ambivalent on the issue of religion, and instead, you seem to hold the rejection of religion as a strong personal value for yourself.
I'm not going to debate the worth of that value versus that of any other value. What's important to realize though is that taking this stance is serving your own interests on that point and not the interests of your child. And on that point too, I'm not going to give an opinion on which you should serve over which. I'm not going to say that, as a rule, you should always take your child over yourself. You just need to appreciate the consequences and exercise accountability for your choice. The consequences of each course should be fairly obvious, and a mature person will be able to choose between them.
It's just important to take accountability for putting yourself at this crossroads, that's all. I'll agree with the above that everyone has a sacred cow. You choose yours. You do so in full contemplation of the consequences. Don't make the mistake of thinking that it has anything to do with your position on the merits. There are a lot of people who would agree with your position with conviction, and it would look more or less the same as the conviction that your wife holds for her position. What matters here is the contemplation of the consequences.
I think you need to relax a bit. Just focus on being a good parent and if you raise him right, he'll come to respect you regardless of your beliefs. A proper educational upbringing and familial support goes a long way and you seem like the guy that can do well to help your son on both aspects.
I don't think you should relax about this. Honestly, it is like reading my own life right now.
I have a two year old son. My entire family, from my parents to my siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, and grandparents on both sides are all deeply religious. My girlfriend, the mother of my son, is also very religious.
I am an atheist.
I really only began to self-identify as an atheist about two years ago. This was in quiet, hushed tones to no one or people on the internet. Recently, I've become a lot more vocal about it. I have never felt more attacked by my own family, more marginalized, and honestly more guilted over my own place in life so much as I have been now. My father and I can't hang out without it becoming a heated conversation, and my girlfriend has basically called me a liar, stating that when we met I was a Christian, and I basically lied about it.
It's an interesting position to be in, because honestly the more time that goes by the more passionate I find myself becoming about my own atheism.
It is really hard to be in this spot. I look at my own son and I think about just indoctrinated I was as a kid. I worry that my family is going to do the same to him. I just remind myself that I am his father, and that no matter what I will be his father, an important part of his life. It is important to me that he gets to choose what he wants to believe in. One thing I told his mother was that she got to choose what she believes in; she was raised in an atheist household and chose to become a Christian.
I did not get to choose. My parents chose it for me.
Anyway, if you ever want to talk/compare notes/vent, feel free to PM me anytime about it. It's been an interesting journey, these last few years.
The very fact that you're an atheist when everyone around you is Christian means that you got to choose.
Clearly just because you grow up in a heavily Christian household doesn't mean that you become some unthinking zealot, as evidenced by both you and Dech Kaison.
Why in the world do you think that your children are just going to automatically get indoctrinated and become some sort of religious nut? Have you ever considered that you're being irrational and thinking too harshly on the issue on the account of the fact that it is your son that the two of you are fighting over?
Now, at the age of thirty. And even then with terror and fear.
And yes, yes it did. When I was 20 I had absolutely no doubt in my mind that there was a God. I believed unquestioningly, and it took years for me to even be able to admit that I was an atheist for the first time. Even as I found myself doubting my own faith, I saw my world around me crashing in, my family turning their backs on me, saying that I was lost, that the devil had a hold of me.
I can choose now.
I should have been able to choose then. Instead all I felt was the fear of condemnation from the people I loved. Even now my girlfriend is always looking for people to try and 'get me back on the right path.' Cornered by pastors and religious family members, all waving the flag of 'Christian love.'
There was no choice when I was a kid. We went to church every Sunday morning, every Sunday evening, and every Wednesday. If you didn't want to go, too bad. Bible study every Saturday night. If you wanted to do something else, too bad.
My son won't get a 'too bad.'
And this is indoctrination?
Man, you have a warped up perception of what that word means. I think people use that word too easily.
Which is the point. You are an adult, presumably living alone and away from your family.
I don't quite understand why you're begrudging the fact that you had to wrestle with your faith and your belief in your twenties to be able to come to a conclusion that satisfies you when you're thirty. Life-changing decisions take a long time.
You are independent, and you can choose. You made a choice that separated you from your parents and loved ones, and obviously there are consequences to that.
You're making it look at though this is all their fault.
And of course they'd try to make you a Christian again. As far as they're concerned, you're going to hell for eternity if you keep this up. Based on their beliefs, they KNOW this. Based on yours, you KNOW that won't happen.
Obviously there is no middle ground here, and that's why this is such a touchy subject.
Clearly the mother, presumably your Christian gf? has no say.
Yup. That makes sense. Your beliefs override theirs. Simply because you KNOW you're right.
I'm not a parent, so feel free to ignore my advice but have you tried talking to your son? He might be too young to understand but when he does, it would be very beneficial to have him discuss what he thinks. I've noticed that you and Dech didn't mention discussing things with the child in question (well I just read the OP and nothing pass that, he might've mentioned it).
It is important that you communicate your values to your son, chances are, you aren't a bad person and your son needs to know that. And don't just tell him what you think is right, you have to show him through action. Building a relationship with your child is a two way street, you learn stuff from him and he learns from you. I can say with enough confidence that he'll prefer that over indoctrination which is just a way one street (indoctrinator to indoctrinee)
Yes, it is indoctrination. When you are born, you are forced into your parents beliefs. It happens all the time, and that is exactly what it is. What else would you call it, exactly?
They are still my family, and I still value them. It would be nice if they could simply accept my unbelief, but they can't, thus turning every interaction with them into a debate about faith.
I didn't choose, actually. They chose to distance themselves from me because of my atheism. There is a very real distinction, and you are reading a little more into it than I wrote; I don't have a problem with people being Christian. It's the other way around.
It kind of is. I was a child, my parents believed a thing, and thus worked to ensure I also believed in that thing. I see it all the time; the church that my girlfriend attends is full of parents pushing their own religious beliefs on their children. Again, indoctrination. What else would you call that?
It isn't just about their concern for my eternal soul. If it was, I could politely accept the prayers and concern. It goes beyond that though. There is real bitterness involved, real anger. Vitriolic, despair-filled anger. You are right, I am an adult and I made my choice, but I should be free to make that choice and it should be respected. It rarely ever is, and if they don't condemn me for it I get the pity stare, or the comments about what a bleak existence my life must be. That's fine, I've heard that from strangers before, but my own family?
It is a touchy subject, yes. Christians are, by their very nature, set up to try and spread their religion, and when one of the herd steps out of line it does become a problem, especially if it is a family member. As you said, it goes beyond simply being upset that they don't believe in the same thing anymore; they are truly concerned about my soul being damned. It's the tactics that they resort to, that's where I struggle. And yes, a lot of what I talked about referenced my childhood, but my childhood was spent deep in the faith. Am I bitter about that? Yeah, I am. There are a lot of things about myself that I did not explore or even begin to understand until I was much older simply because the religion I grew up in viewed them as wrong and sinful. There are a lot of things that I should have figured out years ago that I am only now starting to really understand. Yes, that makes me somewhat bitter and frustrated.
And yes, as an adult I had the right to choose, but what I am trying to convey here is that it was a very difficult choice to make.
Again, you aren't really reading the last thing I said. I said he'd have a choice. A choice to choose whether or not he wanted to believe in the Christian God, the Muslim God, Odin, Thor, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or any other crazy thing he might want to believe in. He'll also have the choice to choose to be an atheist at whatever age he decides that he wants to believe or not believe.
His mother is just as much an influence in his life as I am. My fear is that with a massive family comprised of mostly Christians, that he'll face a similar problem I did as a child. I want him to be able to decide, or hell, not decide, when he wants, not when he is an adult.
He's two right now, so... Yeah, not too much comprehension on his part at the moment.
I am going to have these kinds of conversations with him, but it is hard to know when the right time to talk to him about it will be.
The thing is, my girlfriend has already drawn a clear line in the sand when it comes to our son. She had a conversation with her pastor about this, and he said that I was a negative influence in our son's life, that all I would do is confuse him. So she wants me to keep my mouth shut about it all until he is much older.
I probably won't do that. I probably wouldn't do that even if I was okay with it, because there's something about it that just feels wrong.
Try his kindergarten years. They learn quite a bit about being a good person during those years. Sharing, respecting each others, listening when others are speaking, etc.
It's unfortunate that your pastor is very conservative, the pastor at the church that my mom and I used to frequent was quite liberal and more than understanding on fostering the individual over indoctrination. My only advice is to continue being respectful of those around you even if they don't share your beliefs. The fact that you view them with distrust gives a militant vibe which isn't a good way to approach your relationship with your girlfriend and your family. Be firm in your beliefs, don't be hostile.
You need to have a proper conversation with your GF on how to raise a child. Don't just say "I want to let him know about atheism". That comes out as completely counterproductive which is what your gf and her pastor seems to think. I think you should try "I want to teach my son how to be a good person capable of making his own decisions".
Is the following indoctrination?
-Having your children play a team sport because you want them to.
-Having your children study in school and go off to college because you want them to.
-Having your children believe that there is only one way of life, and that is the American way.
-Having your children believe in certain political concepts because that's the household belief.
Among other things.
If not, why aren't they?
1) Because they feel betrayed by you.
2) Let's make a hypothetical. Imagine that your son just said he's going to go off become a crack cocaine addict and plans to either die by some crime or go off to jail by the time he's thirty. How will you respond?
No, you misunderstood.
I find it a touchy subject because it is an opinion-based issue that has no possible way of resolution unless either one of the parties involved just give up.
There is no logically consistent way that you can prove that hell doesn't exist, and there is no logically consistent way that your parents can prove that you will go to hell if you don't believe.
When it's an issue based purely on human emotions and opinion, there is no winning.
Like what? I'm just being curious here.
As it is a life-changing decision, and one with a great deal of consequences, it should have been a difficult choice to make.
I just find it difficult to understand why you seem to think that it shouldn't have been a difficult choice to make.
You're right. I misread that statement.
That being said, I think you're making a serious mistake by thinking that coming to a decision about something the sooner=the better.
I get that you're not happy with the fact that you had to deal with your faith even though you didn't really believe in it for some time. But, that very act greatly influenced the way you are now. This very conversation is representative of that.
We constantly grow by being put to the test and having our understanding of things challenged. As I see it, there is no actual benefit for your son to decide what to believe in at an early age. That by no means that he won't become an atheist later in life, or a Christian, or a Satanist, or a Muslim, or w.e.
Basically, he might change his mind later on. Maybe he might be an atheist like you in his younger years. Then suddenly when he's forty he suddenly becomes a die-hard Christian. The fact that he made a choice earlier on is irrelevant in this case.
As sch, the fact that he has the ability to make the difficult choice to follow what he believes to be right, like you did, is what is relevant.
Ironically, this very concept of following what one believes to be right is a potential pit-fall. Look at John Walker Lindh. I wonder if anyone still remembers him.
This isn't quite what I was alluding to. I wasn't saying that I wanted him to make up his mind at an earlier age than I did, only that he should be able to if he chose to. I specifically said
The issue is really more complicated than just that though. I honestly try to respect everyone's belief systems. I love my girlfriend even though we do not see eye to eye on the matter of god, but you know what? I really don't agree with the principles or tenets of the Christian religion, especially the one she subscribes to. It is anti-science, anti-homosexual, and honestly it stands against a lot of things that I myself stand for. Even my girlfriend believes in, for example, gay marriage, and has really struggled with reconciling that with her church. The science part she honestly doesn't agree with me about, and that fundamentally bothers me.
The thing is, he can believe in all of that and I would love him just as much then as I do now while he has no real beliefs in any sort of god. At the most he believes that Elmo is a real person. I'm okay with that, lol.
Anyway, I am not so much here to argue about any of this, and rather express that I understood where Dechs was coming from. I'm happy to continue debating the points, however. Just not at midnight, as I feel like I might be rambling rather than posting coherent thoughts.
I think it's important that you meet with your family (either as a whole or if you don't want to feel ganged up on, individually) and explain that you don't mind them telling them about their beliefs, but that they can't be making it an "Us vs. Him" battle. Without knowing more, I would suggest starting with your wife, because hopefully, she'll recognize the need for you to be respected as the father. Explain to her that you're not going to say "Mommy's wrong, this is what's right", but rather "Mommy does believe that, and here's what I believe." As I said, hopefully she'll recognize that you don't want to undermine her, but offer the choice. With that, she'll stand firm with you that your other family members cannot undermine you. She can agree that they'll continue to teach your child, but they will not say you're wrong. If a family member insists on saying you're wrong, you (along with your wife) will have to say that access to the child will be much more restricted. It's one of those things where you hate to do it, but it's important for your family as a whole that the parental dynamics are maintained.
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That's the sort of strict religiosity that also turns people off from organized religion. Some people love the structure, but at some point you're only like reading the Bible? There's more to life than reading a rehash of the Bible.
Seriously, this is why you end up with a Bible thumper you book them into more subjects.
You introduce them to Latin works, you introduce them to history, you introduce them to various other cultures.
It's like I told my wife, "I'm not a fan of organized religion, you are, but they're going to learn about more things than what you knew at their age." And we were happy with the results, by focusing on having literate children that are able to comprehend complex subjects and know that beliefs take time to acquire and think and act through.
Or as I always said, "Oh did you ask your Sunday school teacher about X?" And frankly teacher found me annoying as hell. I came once for a kids function thing a while back ago, and the general feeling was "the kids ask a lot of difficult questions which tends to make things go off topic." The thing is if the wife's a Christian realist, then go full on into the wars and everything else and tell it like it is.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
I'd like to clarity something here. I'm not against my son being religious. I don't care what he chooses, even if he chooses to not be inquisitive at all, just so long as he gets that choice. All my life, it has been wrong to ask questions. It has been wrong to disagree with parts of the message. It has been wrong not to go to church, even though I don't agree with everything. It has been wrong to want to know about other religions. I will not let my son grow up under that level of influence.
Just as an update, things have only been getting worse. My wife and brother are still the only ones who seem to know about my change of beliefs. I haven't spoken to my brother a second time yet, but I have had a few more conversations with my wife. I'm not getting through to her at all.
She has no sense of compromise about this. She's demanding that I never discuss my beliefs with our son and that I lie to him if he ever does ask faith questions. She has started trying to restrict which friends I'm in contact with (the ones she knows are atheists - never mind that I'm not an atheist). The conversations I've had with her lately have usually ended with her resorting to insults.
"You don't love him enough [to lie to him about my faith]."
"You just made up what you believe."
"You believe stupid things that don't make any sense."
"Well, you just believe anything you're told these days."
"Because I don't want you to hang out with him so you can hear him say 'yay, you're an idiot like me now.'"
I'm trying to hang on here, but I don't know how much of this I can take.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
I'll be honest, if its something you can afford (or if you have some other free option) this is the time to talk to a marriage counselor, not an on line message board.
If you really love her and want to fight for the relationship, then thats what you need to do. Posting here is no doubt therapeutic, but doesn't provide any more advice beyond what has already been given.
Agreed. If this continues to be a major point of contention and strain on the relationship, it's worth going. You can always continue to vent here, but I doubt anyone on this board is qualified to help you with this specific problem at this point.
I would add that I think you're just still dealing with the knee-jerk anger reaction here. I think you'll find it becomes less of a knock-down, drag out issue as time goes on as long as you're patient with her. Whatever you do, don't resort to insulting her back, that's couple's therapy rule number one.
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