I am running an older version of wtwlf's 450 list, fully powered. I would like to take out the moxen, time walk, and black lotus, I think, as they can grant a bit too much advantage. Anyone have any suggestions for what I can do to replace them?
hmm.... guess not, lol. I'll figure something out I guess. Though I think I would like to replace them with other artifacts. I have no other mana producing artifacts, except mana vault/sol ring/monolith/crypt, so maybe I'll add some signets or something, lol.
My cube (540) runs these:
Wayfarer's Bauble
Armillary Sphere
Coldsteel Heart
Fellwar Stone
Grim Monolith
Mindstone
Sphere of the Suns
Talisman of Dominance
Talisman of Indulgence
Talisman of Progress
Coalition Relic
Worn Powerstone
I think Gilded Lotus and 5x Talisman or Signets (or maybe all of the signets, just to be balanced), and some blue card to replace time walk. Or maybe some of the stuff KMC suggested. HMMMM.
I think Gilded Lotus and 5x Talisman or Signets (or maybe all of the signets, just to be balanced), and some blue card to replace time walk. Or maybe some of the stuff KMC suggested. HMMMM.
They (Signets/Talismans) are never truly balanced. The green ones are pretty bad (way worse than cards like Rampant Growth).
Coalition Relic is the nuts. It's a very high pick. I'd recommend it over Gilded Lotus.
My list earlier was cut-off at the top. Here is the complete list of mana artifacts that I have.
Chrome Mox
Mox Diamond
Chromatic Sphere
Chromatic Star
Mana Vault
Traveler's Amulet
Wayfarer's Bauble
Armillary Sphere
Coldsteel Heart
Fellwar Stone
Grim Monolith
Mindstone
Sphere of the Suns
Talisman of Dominance
Talisman of Indulgence
Talisman of Progress
Coalition Relic
Worn Powerstone
I'm sorry, did I read that you're taking out Power but you have Sol Ring, and are planning on leaving that card in your Cube? Sol Ring is on par if not better than any P9 card, if you're taking out the P9 for being too good, you need to take out everything that is absurdly broken.
I've only dabbled in maintaining a powered list (Space Cube + Combo Cube), but in the context of my personal list here are the cards I would consider 'Powered' which all aren't necessarily in the P9 category:
I would likely not cube with many of the mentioned cards in an unpowered environment (there are several exceptions). Powerful cards create a lot of variance. You can balance this variance by sprinkling a little more variance in which allows you to crawl back from impossible situations. Take that away and leave only a few of the worst offenders, and they'll stand out like sore thumbs. I can't imagine running Mana Drain or Mind Twist in my list without having some way for the other player to offset the sheer power these cards provide on their own (relative to other cards in the cube). You either want to provide an environment that does very broken things or not. The middle ground doesn't involve any of the cards from the first list, IMO.
Kojiro and I are on the same wavelength today. That is virtually the exact list that I consider 'powered' as well (I have a couple of extras on there too, like Grim Monolith) and for all the reasons that you described.
I have found that the second list of cards are a lot less offensive without the first list of cards, and currently run 3/4 of those.
Time Walk -> Time Warp
Ancestral Recall -> Boomerang or Delver of Secrets
Timetwister -> ?
Black Lotus -> Gilded Lotus
Mox/Mana things -> Signets or Talismans or a few of the unpowered colorless mana things
Mind Twist -> Will probably leave it. Not as brutal when you don't have 6 mana on turn 1
Mana Drain -> Complicate? Condescend?
Library of Alexandria -> Leaving this. Doesn't seem too bad to me.
Mind Twist -> Will probably leave it. Not as brutal when you don't have 6 mana on turn 1
How often has this happened? I can think of maybe one or two occasions in the years of playing with a powered cube where I've actually seen 6 mana on T1. If ever, come to think of it.
And Library is the most powerful card in the cube, powered or not. There's no way you should cut something like Mox Emerald and leave something like Library of Alexandria in the cube.
I've seen the library a few times around in my group. If I take it out, it would be because nobody ever uses it. Don't think I've ever seen it hit the field. Obviously very powerful if you can get it out on your first turn, I can't imagine having a full hand for more than a turn or two though. I guess I tend to go aggro all the time.
Though I've only been cubing for a few months, I've had 5-6 mana turn 1-2 several times, which is why I'm taking these out to begin with. Maybe I'll switch mind twist with mind shatter
We cut Time Spiral like a month ago and we've never wanted it back.
It's powerful, but we found that the deck casting Time Spiral usually has more cards in their hand than the other deck does, so it actually hurts you more than it helps you.
We've been happy without it, as blasphemous as that sounds to many of you.
If I were to play with an 'unpowered' cube, I would play without these cards:
Time Walk
Ancestral Recall
Timetwister (just on philosophy of not playing with power, this is probably fine in an unpowered cube tbh)
Black Lotus
Mox Jet
Mox Sapphire
Mox Pearl
Mox Emerald
Mox Ruby
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Mind Twist
Mana Drain
Library of Alexandria
Tinker
Jitte (because this card is absolutely bonkers in an unpowered cube, I would take this card over SOL RING in an unpowered cube)
Time Spiral is super broken, and I wouldn't ever dream of cutting it. A draw 7 that gives you first crack at the fresh hand is just beyond amazing. Even if it results in card disadvantage, it doesn't matter. You have all the gas and tempo you need to crush your opponent after that. There's nothing I'd rather play as the last card from my hand in mid-range or control, honestly.
And Jitte is super bonkers, but I wouldn't take it over Sol Ring in an unpowered environment. The only card I'd take over the Ring would be Library.
In an unpowered list I think both Mana Vault and Grim Monolith are fine. Tinker is fine as well, especially if you don't run signets. I've never felt that any of these cards were particularly unfair in my unpowered list.
Time Spiral is super broken, and I wouldn't ever dream of cutting it. A draw 7 that gives you first crack at the fresh hand is just beyond amazing. Even if it results in card disadvantage, it doesn't matter. You have all the gas and tempo you need to crush your opponent after that. There's nothing I'd rather play as the last card from my hand in mid-range or control, honestly.
First crack? Sure, and then your opponent untaps and blows you right back out. Not saying the card isn't good, but I don't think it's anywhere near ban-able.
We've had Mana Vault and Library in our cube, and they are fine. They are obviously very high picks, but I would take Jitte over either.
Tinker is fine, since the person playing it has to be very careful not to run into a shatter or boomerang effect.
Timetwister and Wheel are completely reasonable in an unpowered cube. If someone does something sick with either, then it probably took a lot of effort to set-up and is well deserved.
I don't think I'd ever play Gilded Lotus in any of my decks. What exactly are you trying to accelerate into? Coalition Relic comes down two turns earlier, and gets you to six mana on turn 4. Some very well respected pro players have listed it in their top 10 cube cards.
I would take Mind Twist over every card in cube besides Sol Ring and possibly Mana Drain. It's super dumb.
First crack? Sure, and then your opponent untaps and blows you right back out. Not saying the card isn't good, but I don't think it's anywhere near ban-able.
I wouldn't ban it either. But it's a top-20 blue card for a reason. Your opponent will have a fresh 7 too, but against your fresh hand of removal/counterspells/whatever other sickness your blue deck end-game is capable of, I wouldn't expect to get "blown out" the turn after. It's extremely rare to lose a game after resolving a Spiral ...I can't recall a time off the top of my head where someone has.
Quote from kmclaugh »
I don't think I'd ever play Gilded Lotus in any of my decks. What exactly are you trying to accelerate into? Coalition Relic comes down two turns earlier, and gets you to six mana on turn 4. Some very well respected pro players have listed it in their top 10 cube cards.
I agree. Gilded Lotus was always very unimpressive. Thran Dynamo was better, and even that was meh.
I've seen the library a few times around in my group. If I take it out, it would be because nobody ever uses it. Don't think I've ever seen it hit the field. Obviously very powerful if you can get it out on your first turn, I can't imagine having a full hand for more than a turn or two though. I guess I tend to go aggro all the time.
Though I've only been cubing for a few months, I've had 5-6 mana turn 1-2 several times, which is why I'm taking these out to begin with. Maybe I'll switch mind twist with mind shatter
The library lets you dump your hand... without actually dumping your hand. That card is absurd. Oh and Mind Twist? Yah, I think that card wins the "Most Ragequits After Casting" award.
The library lets you dump your hand... without actually dumping your hand. That card is absurd. Oh and Mind Twist? Yah, I think that card wins the "Most Ragequits After Casting" award.
I've not had any ragequits in my cube, but Ankh of Mishra wins that award.
I don't get the Mind Twist rage quit thing. I mean, assuming no fast artifact mana, you have to play fair, which means that Mind Twist starts getting better than Hymn to Tourach by turn 4. If you hit three random cards at that point, it is a three for one blowout for sure, but it should not loose you the game on the spot unless you did not do anything up to that point. What am I missing here?
My cube (540) runs these:
Wayfarer's Bauble
Armillary Sphere
Coldsteel Heart
Fellwar Stone
Grim Monolith
Mindstone
Sphere of the Suns
Talisman of Dominance
Talisman of Indulgence
Talisman of Progress
Coalition Relic
Worn Powerstone
Unpowered 540 Cube
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-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
They (Signets/Talismans) are never truly balanced. The green ones are pretty bad (way worse than cards like Rampant Growth).
Coalition Relic is the nuts. It's a very high pick. I'd recommend it over Gilded Lotus.
Unpowered 540 Cube
About Me
Chrome Mox
Mox Diamond
Chromatic Sphere
Chromatic Star
Mana Vault
Traveler's Amulet
Wayfarer's Bauble
Armillary Sphere
Coldsteel Heart
Fellwar Stone
Grim Monolith
Mindstone
Sphere of the Suns
Talisman of Dominance
Talisman of Indulgence
Talisman of Progress
Coalition Relic
Worn Powerstone
Unpowered 540 Cube
About Me
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Honorable Mentions:
I would likely not cube with many of the mentioned cards in an unpowered environment (there are several exceptions). Powerful cards create a lot of variance. You can balance this variance by sprinkling a little more variance in which allows you to crawl back from impossible situations. Take that away and leave only a few of the worst offenders, and they'll stand out like sore thumbs. I can't imagine running Mana Drain or Mind Twist in my list without having some way for the other player to offset the sheer power these cards provide on their own (relative to other cards in the cube). You either want to provide an environment that does very broken things or not. The middle ground doesn't involve any of the cards from the first list, IMO.
Joy of Cubing Podcast
My 600 Card Unpowered Cube
My Combo Cube
I have found that the second list of cards are a lot less offensive without the first list of cards, and currently run 3/4 of those.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
Time Walk -> Time Warp
Ancestral Recall -> Boomerang or Delver of Secrets
Timetwister -> ?
Black Lotus -> Gilded Lotus
Mox/Mana things -> Signets or Talismans or a few of the unpowered colorless mana things
Mind Twist -> Will probably leave it. Not as brutal when you don't have 6 mana on turn 1
Mana Drain -> Complicate? Condescend?
Library of Alexandria -> Leaving this. Doesn't seem too bad to me.
How often has this happened? I can think of maybe one or two occasions in the years of playing with a powered cube where I've actually seen 6 mana on T1. If ever, come to think of it.
And Library is the most powerful card in the cube, powered or not. There's no way you should cut something like Mox Emerald and leave something like Library of Alexandria in the cube.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
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-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
Though I've only been cubing for a few months, I've had 5-6 mana turn 1-2 several times, which is why I'm taking these out to begin with. Maybe I'll switch mind twist with mind shatter
It's powerful, but we found that the deck casting Time Spiral usually has more cards in their hand than the other deck does, so it actually hurts you more than it helps you.
We've been happy without it, as blasphemous as that sounds to many of you.
If I were to play with an 'unpowered' cube, I would play without these cards:
Time Walk
Ancestral Recall
Timetwister (just on philosophy of not playing with power, this is probably fine in an unpowered cube tbh)
Black Lotus
Mox Jet
Mox Sapphire
Mox Pearl
Mox Emerald
Mox Ruby
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Mind Twist
Mana Drain
Library of Alexandria
Tinker
Jitte (because this card is absolutely bonkers in an unpowered cube, I would take this card over SOL RING in an unpowered cube)
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
And Jitte is super bonkers, but I wouldn't take it over Sol Ring in an unpowered environment. The only card I'd take over the Ring would be Library.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
First crack? Sure, and then your opponent untaps and blows you right back out. Not saying the card isn't good, but I don't think it's anywhere near ban-able.
We've had Mana Vault and Library in our cube, and they are fine. They are obviously very high picks, but I would take Jitte over either.
Tinker is fine, since the person playing it has to be very careful not to run into a shatter or boomerang effect.
Timetwister and Wheel are completely reasonable in an unpowered cube. If someone does something sick with either, then it probably took a lot of effort to set-up and is well deserved.
I don't think I'd ever play Gilded Lotus in any of my decks. What exactly are you trying to accelerate into? Coalition Relic comes down two turns earlier, and gets you to six mana on turn 4. Some very well respected pro players have listed it in their top 10 cube cards.
I would take Mind Twist over every card in cube besides Sol Ring and possibly Mana Drain. It's super dumb.
Unpowered 540 Cube
About Me
I wouldn't ban it either. But it's a top-20 blue card for a reason. Your opponent will have a fresh 7 too, but against your fresh hand of removal/counterspells/whatever other sickness your blue deck end-game is capable of, I wouldn't expect to get "blown out" the turn after. It's extremely rare to lose a game after resolving a Spiral ...I can't recall a time off the top of my head where someone has.
I agree. Gilded Lotus was always very unimpressive. Thran Dynamo was better, and even that was meh.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
The library lets you dump your hand... without actually dumping your hand. That card is absurd. Oh and Mind Twist? Yah, I think that card wins the "Most Ragequits After Casting" award.
(CubeTutor & MTGS)
360 Peasant Cube!
Custom Cube
RWU Miracles RWU
I've not had any ragequits in my cube, but Ankh of Mishra wins that award.
And yes, time spiral is insanity in can.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
Often times you'll have mana elves or talismans, etc.
Unpowered 540 Cube
About Me