MTG Salvation

Here discussion of :symu::symr: cards go.

• What :symu::symr: cards ones do you play in your cube at what size.
• What's yours top 10 :symu::symr: cards?
• Etc.

I want to talk about this color pair because I feel it's the color pair that's the top three cards are closest to each other in term of power. What are the forum opinion on which one is most powerful?

I also got some comments from my playgroup that Fire/Ice is actually just a red card and not Izzet cards. What do you guys think?

Really? Fire//Ice is the only one of those three I run. I'll be adding the Loothouse, however.

Quote from eidolon232

draw +1 cards at instant speed= 3U, since you did not have to spend a card for your Impulse effect

I'm not sure I agree with your logic here. Cantriping is generally valued at 2 isn't it.

Also, you probably know this but you cant just add up all the effects of a card to determine if it is worth it's mana cost. Especially when 2 of the cards you are referencing are not cube-able on their own.

I'm not saying Prophetic Bolt is bad but it has never thrilled me.

agreed.


Not because they are close in power but because they are close in feel I'm thinking of cutting one to try loothouse for a while.
Leaning toward cutting fire/ice to keep power over flexibility and because my group thinks its just a mediocre burn spell. Gets noo love for the ice half.

I think Fire // Ice is the best of the three. And Electrolyze and Prophetic Bolt are about even in power level. They all do something similar, but they're all really good at their jobs. Impulse is a powerful effect to strap onto a decent sized fixed burn spell, and Electrolyze is an affordable source of CA. I like all three more than the Loothouse, which I would run as either my 4th or 5th card in Izzet, depending on how I rank the Signet in that combination (which isn't particularly high for me, because the decks typically have really low CMCs and few expensive cards).

I also think Fire // Ice is the worst of the 3. Electrolyze and Prophetic bolt are both similar in power level, but Electrolyze goes in more decks.

Fire/Ice definitely goes in more decks than electrolyze. Ones that don't require U and R. Also, Ice is very relevant.

Fire can hit a turn earlier and isn't dead if you have no blue.

Fire hitting a turn earlier is so clutch. You don't need to take an extra round of damage from aggro beaters, don't let them draw an extra card from their confidant, don't let them ramp an extra turn with their Birds, etc. So good. And Ice is really clutch in a lot of situations.

Prophetic Bolt is my favourite, and Electrolyze my least. The burn and selection of PB are welcome at any point in the game, as it's easy to find a relevant target. All three are very good however, though none are 'bulletproof'.

I think Fire/Ice is the "best," but Proph Bolt is my favorite. All three spells do a lot of work. I'm going to have a very tough time come fall if Loothouse ends up impressing me...

Quote from eidolon232

Electrolyze has the most important half of Fire // Ice while also drawing you a card at the same time.
Prophetic Bolt gives you effects that are worth a total of 10 mana for half its price.
4 dmg at instant speed= 3R
Impulse 1U
draw +1 cards at instant speed= 3U, since you did not have to spend a card for your Impulse effect

I don't think that's how it works.

Here's my stock mana evaluation of Prophetic Bolt:
4 dmg at instant speed= 2R
Impulse = 1U

So it's fairly costed. Sure, you get two spells for only a single card, but look at the rest of your cube. Pretty much EVERY card gives you a 2-for-1.

Quote from magicmerl

I don't think that's how it works.

Here's my stock mana evaluation of Prophetic Bolt:
4 dmg at instant speed= 2R
Impulse = 1U

So it's fairly costed. Sure, you get two spells for only a single card, but look at the rest of your cube. Pretty much EVERY card gives you a 2-for-1.

I think Flame Javelin suggest 4 damage is about 2RR or RRR. And the rest of 2R burn spell are conditional. I can agree about Impulse part, though. But that make the card rather good.

I've always considered Prophetic Bolt to be a 1 discount with +1 to it's total card advantage because the Impulse effect didn't cost you a card. So it's like a Lightning Blast 3R + Impulse 1U for 3RU total, and one of the effects as a free card.

Fair enough. The 'extra card' I could see as being worth 1.

I think that Brimstone Volley averages out at about 4, and the drawback on char is negligible. I don't consider Lightning Blast to be a cubeable baseline card. And I cut Flame Javelin for being too unreliable at RRR and too weak at 2RR.

I'm so torn between Loothouse and Izzet Signet -_-

I'm taking out the Signet for Loothouse. Testing will show whether that is correct as they do opposite things: one accelerates and fixes your mana; the other is a mana sink and produces colourless.

Personaly, I've never been excited to run any of the common three izzet cards. I rank them fire/ice, electrolyze, prophetic bolt. But I could cut any one of them randomly and not care.

Maybe I'll turn my current card selection into Fire/ice, Loothouse, Signet and just be done with it.

Quote from Delif"s Cube

I'm so torn between Loothouse and Izzet Signet -_-

I think a lot of medium-sized cubes will be in this same boat. I say, if your RU decks tend to be loaded with cheap spells and fewer expensive cards, the Loothouse will be better for you. If your UR decks are more like traditional blue control decks from other colors, the Signet may be of more value. Additionally, if you heavily support the artifact theme, especially if you dip into red to do it, the Signet will be of more value. It's going to be pretty cube dependent, I think.

Izzet signet has the benefit of being good in both traditional blue decks and the red wildfire decks.

I think Loothouse + Signet + whatever your favorite of the UR burn spells is represents by far the best three card Izzet guild section. UR decks, be they counterburn, tempo, artifact decks, or Wildfire big burn, are hardly ever desperate for little burn spells or slight card advantage (not saying Electrolyze isn't solid). Dropping Fire/Ice down to Magma Jet, and Electrolyze to Fire Imp (or TfK or Char or whatever) doesn't really affect a decks power level significantly. Upgrading a land to a Lighthouse or a Signet does. Looting in a land slot and acceling/fixing via a 2 cost artifact are both extremely powerful effects in extremely rare slots.

Quote from Phantizle »

Dropping Fire/Ice down to Magma Jet, and Electrolyze to Fire Imp (or TfK or Char or whatever) doesn't really affect a decks power level significantly. Upgrading a land to a Lighthouse or a Signet does.

This sounds like decks aren't playing both Fire // Ice and Magma Jet. Electrolyze and Imp. Typically, that's what we do here; we don't leave burn spells in the sideboard of our counterburn decks.

Quote from wtwlf123

This sounds like decks aren't playing both Fire // Ice and Magma Jet. Electrolyze and Imp. Typically, that's what we do here; we don't leave burn spells in the sideboard of our counterburn decks.

How many burn spells do you typically run in a counterburn deck?

Quote from Phantizle

How many burn spells do you typically run in a counterburn deck?

Pretty much every one that I've drafted.

Quote from wtwlf123

Pretty much every one that I've drafted.

Okay. Let's say that is 5-6. I was using the example of cutting a burn spell, but it actually looks like your cube uses a tad less % for burn spells than does mine, so it may be the case that you can't cut burn spell for burn spell (or burny creature). But surely you can cut burn spell for playable (whatever was 24th).

I would argue that a deck that cut Electrolyze for Chandras Pheonix (or Molten Rain or Memory Lapse whatever...it's not like cube decks, especially blue, are hurting for playables) and added Loothouse in place of a basic is a far better deck. It probably ends up playing as if it has nearly as much burn thanks to the looting, and is more flexible.

I get what you're saying. I just don't agree. I think Fire // Ice, Electrolyze and Bolt are more powerful upgrades over mono-colored spells than the Loothouse is over a basic. Especially since tapping for colorless can hurt a lot of blue spells.