I feel I need a 3rd storm win con after Brain Freeze and Tendrils of Agony.
Empty the Warrens has been traditionally the 3rd choice, but its been fairly abysmal in testing.
I'm wondering how strong Ignite Memories is as an alternative.
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I prefer Empty the Warrens.
Ignite Memories doesn't work if opponent have no hand, plus opponents can empty their hand to avoid damages in reaction. It can happen.
How often can you expect to enough damages with Ignite Memories? If your opponent plays aggro for example you might never hit enough to kill him. That is also true if opponent only got cheap spells in hand. On top of that, even if players got multiple CMC cards, the random part is enough for me to prefer Empty.
I'd also have a look at other reasons Storm wasn't working before adding another card that only works in one specific deck - lack of redundancy in other areas (More tutors? Rituals? Ways to cast from the gy? Card selection? Anything else that goes in more than just Storm) or overabundance of other things that beat the deck.
That all being said I have my cube's storm archetype built around Sentinel Tower and Aetherflux Reservoir rather than Rituals and Tendrils and my only 'traditional' storm experience is Modern and EDH so I could be way off here.
I'd also have a look at other reasons Storm wasn't working before adding another card that only works in one specific deck - lack of redundancy in other areas (More tutors? Rituals? Ways to cast from the gy? Card selection? Anything else that goes in more than just Storm) or overabundance of other things that beat the deck.
I agree. I think win conditions are the lowest priority on what storm needs to function well. For example, if your storm decks are able to generate infinite mana, Fireball-effects also become a possible storm wincon. I'm also reminded of the draft Gaby and LSV had where their storm deck won with Siege-Gang Commander and Corpse Dance. Several times I've tried drafting storm on the MTGO cube, I ended up with only Draw 7s + Narset/Leovold, and that interaction was strong enough to not need Tendrils. I've also drafted storm/sneak attack hybrids where the deck used Mind's Desire to cast Eldrazi. Generally, if everything else is working, the storm drafter can find a way to win, even if none of the cards in the deck have the Storm keyword.
Underworld Breach increased the consistency of Grapeshot, and it got more than a few storm kills when we played that.
I could see that. In fact I think grapeshot has really gone up in value considering it can easily storm 2-3 on early turns to remove the excessive number of X/1s in the format.
I'd also have a look at other reasons Storm wasn't working before adding another card that only works in one specific deck - lack of redundancy in other areas (More tutors? Rituals? Ways to cast from the gy? Card selection? Anything else that goes in more than just Storm) or overabundance of other things that beat the deck.
I agree. I think win conditions are the lowest priority on what storm needs to function well. For example, if your storm decks are able to generate infinite mana, Fireball-effects also become a possible storm wincon. I'm also reminded of the draft Gaby and LSV had where their storm deck won with Siege-Gang Commander and Corpse Dance. Several times I've tried drafting storm on the MTGO cube, I ended up with only Draw 7s + Narset/Leovold, and that interaction was strong enough to not need Tendrils. I've also drafted storm/sneak attack hybrids where the deck used Mind's Desire to cast Eldrazi. Generally, if everything else is working, the storm drafter can find a way to win, even if none of the cards in the deck have the Storm keyword.
I think I might need some more explanation on this. I'm a heuristics heavy drafter and here is my understanding:
- Ritual Storm - Yawgwill, LED, Baral etc. This is the best storm variant, that can easily win turns 3-4 (on its best variants) but almost always requires a Brain Freeze/ Tendrils (or Thassa's Oracle) to win. This is the most explosive variant but also high risk
- Untap Storm - This is generally Blue-Green and requires a few land ramp spells to function. I always though of this as a UG control deck that uses Palinchron + Doubler or Time Spiral/ High Tide to pull ahead for infinite mana. Similar to Twin (with instant win) or 2003 Wake Control
- Artifact storm - This is just an artifact based ramp decks that utilizes a lot of the storm cards and artifact mana/ untap to generate insane amounts of mana - likely cannot generate sufficient storm for Tendrils.
When I'm drafting, if I'm on Ritual Storm, I will traditionally pivot to reanimator if the pool isn;t open. If I'm on Untap storm, I can usually transition into a RUG style control deck and artifact decks can traditionally play as a ramp style deck.
The part I always misunderstood is "Win cons are over rated". I would agree with that in the Untap storm as it can traditionally generate 10+ mana on turns 5-6 or can play as a strong control deck/ through the breach style deck.
I played some cEDH Turbo Ad Nauseam, and the idea is if you have enough mana, you can generally cast Ad Nauseam to draw your entire deck which will draw you into more mana and will almost certainly result in a combo. Is this the idea with the Ritual Storm win cons?
I be really happy if someone could provide a more indepth analysis.
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Its hard to get full playgroups these days - But I've been having a lot of fun with 90 card sealed and this was my sealed deck (Attached):
I made a change as I had 2 green fixing lands and opted by add Heartbeat of Spring into the deck. I was surprised I could storm off in a 90 card sealed environment and the deck was fairly competitive. I had a few experiences:
- The best enablers are obviously Tendrils/ Brain Freeze but Mind's Desire and Thassa's Oracle often just as strong as win-cons, but they don't work for every deck.
- Grapeshot is the best of the bunch between Empty/ Grapeshot/ Ignite. Its often a good turn 2-3 play that can deal 1-3 damage with the help of cantrip/ signet/ moxen etc. which can often by 2 turns against a meta full of aggro/ ramp decks. This is critical not only for digging into combo pieces, but often hitting more land drops making Time Spiral/ Palinchron more effective or buying time for Thousand Year Storm/ Bolas Citadel.
- If you're supporting storm, I recommend a minimum of 3 storm engines that can work with decks (as shown above) where it has storm enablers + control/ ramp elements -> Thousand Year- Storm/ Palinchron. If you're playing sealed a lot (like myself), Hullbreaker Horror might be a good contender for a storm control deck (go infinite with moxen/ use moxen or LED to generate insane mana on storm turns).
- Control cards/ Sweepers are great at helping to make land drops, but I found storm needs either a minimum of 4 good sources of fast mana (LED/ Moxen/ Dark Ritual/ Mana Vault/ mana doublers) etc. otherwise its draw 7 aren't very effective or it needs a storm combo -> High Tide + Untap/ Draw 7 + Hullbreacher/ Palinchron + Draw 7 etc. in order for the deck to fully work.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I'd also have a look at other reasons Storm wasn't working before adding another card that only works in one specific deck - lack of redundancy in other areas (More tutors? Rituals? Ways to cast from the gy? Card selection? Anything else that goes in more than just Storm) or overabundance of other things that beat the deck.
I agree. I think win conditions are the lowest priority on what storm needs to function well. For example, if your storm decks are able to generate infinite mana, Fireball-effects also become a possible storm wincon. I'm also reminded of the draft Gaby and LSV had where their storm deck won with Siege-Gang Commander and Corpse Dance. Several times I've tried drafting storm on the MTGO cube, I ended up with only Draw 7s + Narset/Leovold, and that interaction was strong enough to not need Tendrils. I've also drafted storm/sneak attack hybrids where the deck used Mind's Desire to cast Eldrazi. Generally, if everything else is working, the storm drafter can find a way to win, even if none of the cards in the deck have the Storm keyword.
I feel that is probably correct for constructed/ cEDH - "If you generate that much mana/ infinite mana, drew that many cards/ your entire deck, you can fairly easily figure out a way to win". However, my experience with playing storm in Modern especially when the disruption is VERY heavy is that having extra storm win-cons, especially double grapeshot has been incredibly strong against fighting hate OR using mini Empty/ Grapeshot to clear the board and rebuild on later turns.
I'm experimenting with having Grapeshot, Ignite Memories AND Empty the Warrens as storm payoffs to minimize the risks of drafting a storm deck without a win con ABD make it easier for drafters to mini-storm with Empty/ Grapeshot OR win with as few as 2-3 Rituals/ 0-cost spells + Grapeshot + Ignite Memories/ Tendrills.
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I feel I need a 3rd storm win con after Brain Freeze and Tendrils of Agony.
Empty the Warrens has been traditionally the 3rd choice, but its been fairly abysmal in testing.
I'm wondering how strong Ignite Memories is as an alternative.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Ignite Memories doesn't work if opponent have no hand, plus opponents can empty their hand to avoid damages in reaction. It can happen.
How often can you expect to enough damages with Ignite Memories? If your opponent plays aggro for example you might never hit enough to kill him. That is also true if opponent only got cheap spells in hand. On top of that, even if players got multiple CMC cards, the random part is enough for me to prefer Empty.
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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That all being said I have my cube's storm archetype built around Sentinel Tower and Aetherflux Reservoir rather than Rituals and Tendrils and my only 'traditional' storm experience is Modern and EDH so I could be way off here.
I agree. I think win conditions are the lowest priority on what storm needs to function well. For example, if your storm decks are able to generate infinite mana, Fireball-effects also become a possible storm wincon. I'm also reminded of the draft Gaby and LSV had where their storm deck won with Siege-Gang Commander and Corpse Dance. Several times I've tried drafting storm on the MTGO cube, I ended up with only Draw 7s + Narset/Leovold, and that interaction was strong enough to not need Tendrils. I've also drafted storm/sneak attack hybrids where the deck used Mind's Desire to cast Eldrazi. Generally, if everything else is working, the storm drafter can find a way to win, even if none of the cards in the deck have the Storm keyword.
[180 classic cube]
I could see that. In fact I think grapeshot has really gone up in value considering it can easily storm 2-3 on early turns to remove the excessive number of X/1s in the format.
I think I might need some more explanation on this. I'm a heuristics heavy drafter and here is my understanding:
- Ritual Storm - Yawgwill, LED, Baral etc. This is the best storm variant, that can easily win turns 3-4 (on its best variants) but almost always requires a Brain Freeze/ Tendrils (or Thassa's Oracle) to win. This is the most explosive variant but also high risk
- Untap Storm - This is generally Blue-Green and requires a few land ramp spells to function. I always though of this as a UG control deck that uses Palinchron + Doubler or Time Spiral/ High Tide to pull ahead for infinite mana. Similar to Twin (with instant win) or 2003 Wake Control
- Artifact storm - This is just an artifact based ramp decks that utilizes a lot of the storm cards and artifact mana/ untap to generate insane amounts of mana - likely cannot generate sufficient storm for Tendrils.
When I'm drafting, if I'm on Ritual Storm, I will traditionally pivot to reanimator if the pool isn;t open. If I'm on Untap storm, I can usually transition into a RUG style control deck and artifact decks can traditionally play as a ramp style deck.
The part I always misunderstood is "Win cons are over rated". I would agree with that in the Untap storm as it can traditionally generate 10+ mana on turns 5-6 or can play as a strong control deck/ through the breach style deck.
I played some cEDH Turbo Ad Nauseam, and the idea is if you have enough mana, you can generally cast Ad Nauseam to draw your entire deck which will draw you into more mana and will almost certainly result in a combo. Is this the idea with the Ritual Storm win cons?
I be really happy if someone could provide a more indepth analysis.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I made a change as I had 2 green fixing lands and opted by add Heartbeat of Spring into the deck. I was surprised I could storm off in a 90 card sealed environment and the deck was fairly competitive. I had a few experiences:
- The best enablers are obviously Tendrils/ Brain Freeze but Mind's Desire and Thassa's Oracle often just as strong as win-cons, but they don't work for every deck.
- Grapeshot is the best of the bunch between Empty/ Grapeshot/ Ignite. Its often a good turn 2-3 play that can deal 1-3 damage with the help of cantrip/ signet/ moxen etc. which can often by 2 turns against a meta full of aggro/ ramp decks. This is critical not only for digging into combo pieces, but often hitting more land drops making Time Spiral/ Palinchron more effective or buying time for Thousand Year Storm/ Bolas Citadel.
- If you're supporting storm, I recommend a minimum of 3 storm engines that can work with decks (as shown above) where it has storm enablers + control/ ramp elements -> Thousand Year- Storm/ Palinchron. If you're playing sealed a lot (like myself), Hullbreaker Horror might be a good contender for a storm control deck (go infinite with moxen/ use moxen or LED to generate insane mana on storm turns).
- Control cards/ Sweepers are great at helping to make land drops, but I found storm needs either a minimum of 4 good sources of fast mana (LED/ Moxen/ Dark Ritual/ Mana Vault/ mana doublers) etc. otherwise its draw 7 aren't very effective or it needs a storm combo -> High Tide + Untap/ Draw 7 + Hullbreacher/ Palinchron + Draw 7 etc. in order for the deck to fully work.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I feel that is probably correct for constructed/ cEDH - "If you generate that much mana/ infinite mana, drew that many cards/ your entire deck, you can fairly easily figure out a way to win". However, my experience with playing storm in Modern especially when the disruption is VERY heavy is that having extra storm win-cons, especially double grapeshot has been incredibly strong against fighting hate OR using mini Empty/ Grapeshot to clear the board and rebuild on later turns.
I'm experimenting with having Grapeshot, Ignite Memories AND Empty the Warrens as storm payoffs to minimize the risks of drafting a storm deck without a win con ABD make it easier for drafters to mini-storm with Empty/ Grapeshot OR win with as few as 2-3 Rituals/ 0-cost spells + Grapeshot + Ignite Memories/ Tendrills.