Enlightened Tutor puts an artifact or enchantment on top of your deck. This is one of the best, due to the low cost and ability to be cast on your opponent's turn.
Idyllic Tutor only find enchantments, but it puts them straight into your hand.
Enduring Ideal is typically too expensive, but provides a resilient win in a single card.
Serum Powder helps get you a hand containing sufficient Leylines and action. It's also a mana source, which can matter.
Expedition Map can find Serra's Sanctum without requiring green mana or card disadvantage. It becomes a lot better once you're running specialty lands like Karakas.
Leyline of Singularity can make you Legend rule multiples of itself or other Leylines. It can be used if you really need it for critical mass, or if you're running Karakas, but should be avoided otherwise.
Win Conditions
Opalescence is typically your default win condition. It works well with your main mana engine, Serra's Sanctum, and the enchantments can typically attack right away (Leylines are never summoning sick if they start the game in play).
Goblin Charbelcher can be used if you have a low enough land count, and will then kill in 2-3 turns (depending somewhat on luck).
Eternal Dragon is slow, but helps supplement the manabase, provide card advantage, and is recursive.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Ajani Goldmane are only four mana, and so can potentially reach play on the first or second turn, early enough to steal many games. This is more strongly true of Elspeth than Ajani.
Replenish can potentially help against enchantment sweepers, but typically can't be cast via Serra's Sanctum in that case, so is only really worth considering in builds with a lot of other mana sources.
Tithe and/or Gift of Estates can help supplement the deck's normally-shaky manabase by searching out plains to play.
Oblivion Ring is a versatile answer card that can be found by most of the deck's tutors.
Parallax Wave combines with Opalescence to exile infinite creatures, as well as possibly buying some time by itself.
Sideboard Possibilities
See Other Cards, above, as well.
Lodestone Golem fits into the creature strategy I like to run. By bringing lots of creatures, you increase the number of threats in the deck and potentially make them uncounterable via Leyline of Lifeforce.
Hero of Bladehold fits into the same creature strategy I just mentioned. It can present an incredibly fast clock if you have Leyline of the Meek.
I will add more sideboard cards as people make a case for them.
The logic of relying on starting with Serra's Sanctum in hand:
The logic is pretty simple: Serum Powder is pretty good at finding the Sanctum and the alternatives take extra slots in the deck, reducing consistency in some areas while trying to add it in others. As a result, you're giving up enough explosiveness that you'd be better off just giving up some games in the mulligan phase to win others while actually playing. For example, Crop Rotation or Expedition Map both take substantial extra slots for the land to use them. Running enough land not to need Serra's Sanctum seems to both slow down the deck and make any victory condition lackluster when it finally resolves.
Some numbers from my personal testing with the list above, assuming that I'm on the play:
Just over 50% chance of turn 2 Opalescence.
~20% Chance of losing to your own mulligans. (counting all mulligans to oblivion and games where you do nothing for 6+ turns)
Average Opalescence on about turn 3.
~50% chance of being resilient to Counterspells, Wasteland, or both while scoring a victory in the first few turns of the game.
Simple play guide for my list:
You will typically Serum Powder any 6 or 7-card hand that doesn't have Serra's Sanctum. Additionally, you'll typically mulligan any such hand as well. You will typically keep almost any hand which has Serra's Sanctum. When you have 5 or fewer cards, you need to consider how likely you are to draw a hand that has any chance of winning the game. Often, you'll stop with 4-5 Leylines and hope to draw mana and/or action.
You'll typically start the game by playing all of your Leylines for free.
You now use Serra's Sanctum to cast Opalescence or an Idyllic Tutor or Enlightened Tutor to find it. If you don't have any of those, keep Serra's Sanctum in your hand until you have something worth casting. Since you have 12 cards which are/find Opalescence, this doesn't normally take more than a few turns.
Once you have Opalescence in play, you can attack with any Leylines or Suppression Fields you control. Since the Leylines been under your control since before the game began, they don't have summoning sickness and can attack right away. Often only 1-2 attacks will kill an opponent.
pretty sure there was a thread for this deck already, might be ridiculously buried though.
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also you have oblivion ring which can deal with anything
Parallax Wave is win-more, at least in my list. I've tested it and like the infinite removal and the ability to save creatures, but it's too expensive and relies on Opalescence.
I like Oblivion Ring and was thinking about trying to fit it in after my comment about possibly needing some way to deal with creatures. I might cut a Lodestone Golem or two to work something like that into the sideboard.
pretty sure there was a thread for this deck already, might be ridiculously buried though.
I know there was, just as there were threads when the first Leylines came out several years ago. Why should we have this thread, then?
1) I think (or at least hope) my all-in-on-Sanctum plan is a major advance and a major upgrade for the deck, which also changes deck construction significantly.
2) I think the creature-based sideboard plan is entirely novel, as they've been printing better and better creatures, to the point where you can dominate the board with an early creature and take games from control. I think this advancement justifies discussion, and the old thread is effectively dead, making that thread not the place to do such discussion.
Hey ajfirecracker! Love your deck! I find it perfect to start as a Legacy player without spending thousand of dollars in the process!
I have a suggestion:
I removed 4 Leyline of Lightning and put 3 Expedition Map and 1 Consecrate Land to add more possibilities of keeping a hand without Serra's Sactum.
For example this type of hands would still be viable:
1 Expedition Map
2 Petrified Field
1 Leyline
Having loads of tutors and toolbox answers, especially Wastelock, is brutal against most decks. Combined with the splash hate form maindeck Leylines, the fast combo clock, and the stronger sideboard hate, you should find yourself having a lot of consistency and some very strong lines of play.
Obviously, "oops infinite life/removal/protect my doodz" is very good.
Phyrexian Tower-->Rector is a tutor AND a response to K-Grip. With Lifeforce out, it's uncounterable. In short, completely unfair.
Canopy+Crucible is pretty good. I like drawing cards.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I've been experimenting with both lists [the one in primer and the one above this post].
The real problem I find is that if you don't have enough Leyline in the list you end up only getting one or two in your opening hand which I feel isn't enough. But if you have too many you are likely to keep getting dead draws for most of the game. How can we fix this?
Dead draws is just gonna happen with this deck. The only solution is to optimize your starting hands to decrease the number of 'live draws' you need on the first place.
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I am the author of the "Resource Advantage in Magic" series over on EternalCentral.com
I've been testing the list I posted in preparation for ordering the cards (which I did yesterday). Went 2-1 against both Elves and RUG Delver. The Wlves matchup was weird, I wasn't sure what to do game 1 until I realized I could E. Tutor, crack Horizon Canopy, play Parallax Wave for infinite life, infinite removal, GG.
Delver got blown out by Opalescence in one game, and I eked a Helmline win at 1 life in the third game. Games 2 AND 3 he tried to Bolt me at three life, forgetting I had Sanctity.
Had 3 intensely close games with Storm. Actually that's not entirely accurate. Had one blowout game against Storm via Opening Sanctity, Void, Anticipation, Turn 1 Suppression Field (I've maindecked all four for now). Then had two very close games in which he barely got there with goblins. Game 2 came down to awful mulligans; My first 7 had Sanctity and Suppression Field, but not much else. Two Powders and a mull to 4 later, I had seen nothing except worse variants of that same hand.
Played all three matches without a SB, 3Sphere and/or Chalice would've wrecked house every time.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Stasis players like me are like those old gray haired convicts that have been locked up for 40 years straight. You can take us in a fight but you know you'll lose a testicle in the process of winning.
Decks I play
Legacy
Dredge 0
DredgeGBRU
AffinityXRUB
GoblinsRWB
10 land StompyG
BurnR
DreadstillURW
BelcherGR
Death and Taxes W
Enchantress GWR
BUILDING
Legacy Lands GBRUW
I'll never tell you the flavor text of Teferi's Imp!!
I'm actually...not a huge fan of that IQ list. Aside from maindeck Fields, which I have been doing for ages and will never change, it loses a lot of the interaction and doesn't add much. It has no Sterling Grove; no helpful tutor targets besides Opalescence and Helm; it plays all of the worst Leylines (seriously, Meek, but no Aura Mutation or even Lingering Souls?? 2 Heroes is not nearly enough to justify that). No Oblivion Ring or similar to deal with Jace, SnT, Goyf, Batterskull. No City of Solitude/Trinisphere/Defense Grid to prevent auto-losing against Blue. No utility lands to fetch with Crop Rotation.
I'm glad that the deck did well, but I feel like this particular list is too stripped down and has too high a concentration of Leylines for the statistics to balance out.
I recently played in a Legacy side event at an SCG Open, and I think the tutors are the key to making the deck work. It might get a little over-complicated, but having a toolbox can make this the ultimate Meta Deck. I made Merdolk scoop with infinite removal+life, stalled out SneakShow with three Fields and an O-ring, and tutored up City of Solitude to save another Merfolk match. I also completely tilted one guy with Turn 1 Crucible into Wasteland, Canopy, and multiple Sanctum shenanigans. I always had options, and I almost always needed them.
One major change I'm considering is adding a single Mikokoro and 3-4 Spirit of the Labyrinth. Spirit is a 2cmc enchantment, the most important cost for us, and beats hard without Opalescence out, AND hates on Brainstorm/Jace/Ponder/Griselbrand by himself. Put the two together, and you have a ridiculous engine. I might also want a miser Solitary Confinement maindeck if I do this.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I'm actually...not a huge fan of that IQ list. Aside from maindeck Fields, which I have been doing for ages and will never change, it loses a lot of the interaction and doesn't add much. It has no Sterling Grove; no helpful tutor targets besides Opalescence and Helm; it plays all of the worst Leylines (seriously, Meek, but no Aura Mutation or even Lingering Souls?? 2 Heroes is not nearly enough to justify that). No Oblivion Ring or similar to deal with Jace, SnT, Goyf, Batterskull. No City of Solitude/Trinisphere/Defense Grid to prevent auto-losing against Blue. No utility lands to fetch with Crop Rotation.
Can you post your current and/or proposed Spirit of Labyrinth lists? The last version you suggested didn't have the Fields main, and I've been toying around with building Leylines Win as an additional deck for when I don't think Manaless Dredge or Thopter Control are a good choice in the meta.
I'm glad that the deck did well, but I feel like this particular list is too stripped down and has too high a concentration of Leylines for the statistics to balance out.
I've been goldfishing with Chris's IQ list and trying my own attempts to introduce some toolbox elements. The problem I found was that without a sufficient concentration of Leylines, the toolbox just ended up diluting any chance of actually having enough power on table to actually present significant early game pressure. A couple O-Rings and Suppression Fields doesn't seem enough to stop most Delver/TNN/Stoneblade decks from running you over with plenty of counter spell backup, especially if they can Force your first attempt or two at disruption. Likewise, Suppression Field does nicely against some combo decks, but with no counters or discard of your own, it doesn't seem like you can stop enough of them.
How much toolbox do you need before that strategy starts becoming stronger than all-in "Swing for 12 or 16 on turn 1 and 2"? That seems to me to be the primary "combo" kill for a deck like this. Any later than that and you're suddenly potentially facing things like Griselbrand or Emrakul or Elesh Norn or an entire horde of Zombies, Elves or Merfolk on the board, and suddenly even three or four 4/4s and a few 2/2 or 3/3 is not that strong. Or they've had time to miracle a terminus, dig to a Supreme or Deluge, hit a few edicts, or otherwise start to clear your board.
I'd like for the toolbox approach to work, if only because I like having interactive options if the all-in 'win turn 1 or 2' plan fails, but it just feels like every time I remove a leyline, it cuts the odds that I'm going to have that early critical mass.
I'd like for the toolbox approach to work, if only because I like having interactive options if the all-in 'win turn 1 or 2' plan fails, but it just feels like every time I remove a leyline, it cuts the odds that I'm going to have that early critical mass.
Suppression Field is extremely strong as an interactive element/pseudo-ramp spell. I really think you need a critical mass of Leylines or something like 8 (Sanctity plus Void) or just zero. If zero, you're probably running something like Enchantress with Opalescence as a more conditional but more compact/faster kill. If 8 you're basically building a non-green Enchantment Control deck, and Opalescence becomes very questionable as you'd probably prefer Moat and/or Humility.
As to why you need a critical mass: 2 opening-hand Leyline I would say is the bare minimum to be able to have a fast clock off Opalescence as well as to be able to build up from Suppression Field. If you mulligan once, 2 Leyline in the opening hand is one-third of your hand, so Leylines should be at least one-third of your deck. That is twenty cards. If you want any sort of consistency in terms of playing Leylines, you want closer to 3 out of 6, which suggests around 30 in the deck.
I have tested 36 (including Leyline of Singularity) but found the Legend Rule to be too onerous to justify, as well as interfering with many of the most obvious sideboard plans.
I often look at opening-hand Leyline of Lightning and wonder if I would prefer it to be something else, like Crop Rotation or O-Ring. Usually, I just prefer a blank Leyline to power up Sanctum and swing for 4.
I think you can barely squeeze in Crop Rotation and 4-7 land, but it feels to me like you open yourself up to stuff like Wasteland and tempo plays without much gain in consistency. Wasteland on Sanctum you have to draw another Sanctum or another two-card combo, as opposed to a single-card reboot button. Serra's Sanctum is a one-card mana engine, while Crop Rotation is a two-card combo just to be able to cast anything. The one advantage is post-board, when you decide you want to cast aggro spells for 3-4 mana.
I'm really liking Noxious Revival in place of Petrified Field. They don't provide mana except in certain circumstances, but they help protect against both Wasteland and counters.
I'll have to get back to you on my exact list, as my deck is rather far away at the moment. But I'm pretty sure it's just the first list I posted, -1 Rector, -1 Expedition Map, -3 City of Brass, +4 Fields maindeck, +1 Gemstone Mine. I'm also fairly certain I have the 4th Anticipation in the maindeck.
As far as diluting the Leylines goes, I've not really had a problem. Opening hand math is something near and dear to my heart, so I did a lot of careful wolframming before settling on a minimum number of Leylines. 18-24 is the best range, and I usually stay around 19 or 20. A little more than that and you are limiting live deck slots without significantly improving the odds. Significantly more than that (28-36) and you are significantly improving your odds, but also gutting your deck of useful slots and strong topdecks.
The reason the toolbox version is so strong is simply because it has options. If your deck is 36 Leylines, 4 Opalescence, 4 Serum Powder, 4 Sanctum, 4 Rotation, 4 E. Tutor, well, what do you do when Opalescence gets countered? How do you deal with Batterskull? Delver and Goyf? Any situation like this that you raise as an argument against the toolbox is actually MORE relevant to the "all-in" version. Why? Because you have more Leylines, but you are not improving your odds of finding Sanctum or Opalscence. If we both have the same chance to find those key pieces, then it doesn't matter how many Leylines we have out, Leylines are not our limiting factor.
So, if we are on equal footing as far as the Turn 1-3 plan goes, what do we do beyond that? Well, if you're running a toolbox, and multiple tutor outlets, you find whatever you need for the situation at hand. What does the non-toolbox deck do when the Turn 1 doesn't work? Flounder until it hits another Opalescence? You mentioned that missing the combo turn means possibly facing an Emrakul next turn. My deck has more tutors, so an ever-so-slightly better chance of hitting Opalescence in time. For the sake of this discussion, though, we'll say that it's equal. We both missed the combo turn, now do you want to stare down that Emrakul with an O-ring in your deck, or 12 more Leylines?
So, TL;DR, the toolbox version is not sacrificing the combo turn for a stronger late-game strategy, it's just tacking a late game strategy onto a shell that already supports it.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I'll have to get back to you on my exact list, as my deck is rather far away at the moment. But I'm pretty sure it's just the first list I posted, -1 Rector, -1 Expedition Map, -3 City of Brass, +4 Fields maindeck, +1 Gemstone Mine. I'm also fairly certain I have the 4th Anticipation in the maindeck.
As far as diluting the Leylines goes, I've not really had a problem. Opening hand math is something near and dear to my heart, so I did a lot of careful wolframming before settling on a minimum number of Leylines. 18-24 is the best range, and I usually stay around 19 or 20. A little more than that and you are limiting live deck slots without significantly improving the odds. Significantly more than that (28-36) and you are significantly improving your odds, but also gutting your deck of useful slots and strong topdecks.
The reason the toolbox version is so strong is simply because it has options. If your deck is 36 Leylines, 4 Opalescence, 4 Serum Powder, 4 Sanctum, 4 Rotation, 4 E. Tutor, well, what do you do when Opalescence gets countered? How do you deal with Batterskull? Delver and Goyf? Any situation like this that you raise as an argument against the toolbox is actually MORE relevant to the "all-in" version. Why? Because you have more Leylines, but you are not improving your odds of finding Sanctum or Opalscence. If we both have the same chance to find those key pieces, then it doesn't matter how many Leylines we have out, Leylines are not our limiting factor.
So, if we are on equal footing as far as the Turn 1-3 plan goes, what do we do beyond that? Well, if you're running a toolbox, and multiple tutor outlets, you find whatever you need for the situation at hand. What does the non-toolbox deck do when the Turn 1 doesn't work? Flounder until it hits another Opalescence? You mentioned that missing the combo turn means possibly facing an Emrakul next turn. My deck has more tutors, so an ever-so-slightly better chance of hitting Opalescence in time. For the sake of this discussion, though, we'll say that it's equal. We both missed the combo turn, now do you want to stare down that Emrakul with an O-ring in your deck, or 12 more Leylines?
So, TL;DR, the toolbox version is not sacrificing the combo turn for a stronger late-game strategy, it's just tacking a late game strategy onto a shell that already supports it.
I can't agree with that analysis. I've tested more toolbox-heavy options and found them to be entirely flaccid. With Crop Rotation, Enlightened Tutor, and Idyllic Tutor you absolutely have a better shot of finding and resolving Opalescence.
My list (posted at top) gets a very fast Opalescence around 50% of the time. That's not nothing. That same list runs Noxious Revival (formerly Petrified Field in that slot) so you absolutely have potential draws if your Opalescence gets countered. You have 8 Tutors + 3 Opalescence + 4 Noxious Revival = 15 outs. That's over a quarter of the cards remaining in your deck.
There are an extra 3 Tutors in my list compared to yours (unless you count Rector + Phyrexian Tower which I would not, as it's a two-card combo). Your deck is also much, much less likely to be able to cast Opalescence on the first or second turn, and much, much less likely to be able to have it do something relevant.
At 18 Leylines (as in the list you posted), you can expect 2 in your opening hand, with a third around half the time. These are the most common opening hands. There's absolutely no way that's enough to support a fast combo. Have you actually playtested this or just messed around with the math? The first thing I tried for LLDW was a toolbox, and only gradually approached the streamlined list I've posted as I became convinced I needed to shape the deck in that direction for it to perform tolerably.
Some testing with the serenechaos list, just to see what it can actually do:
Below is serenechaos' list with their suggested changes. You can copy and paste it into the random number generator site above to examine opening hands. Randomize, then read off the first 7 cards. To mulligan, randomise and read off the first 6. To Serum Powder, just read cards 8-14. To Serum Powder and mulligan you will have to delete the cards you want to Powder away, then read the next 7 or 6 or whichever, then you can randomize and read 1 fewer.
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Gemstone Mine
Gemstone Mine
Gemstone Mine
Gemstone Mine
Horizon Canopy
Horizon Canopy
Horizon Canopy
Phyrexian Tower
Wasteland
Tree of Tales
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Anticipation
Opalescence
Opalescence
Opalescence
Opalescence
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Crop Rotation
Crop Rotation
Crop Rotation
Crop Rotation
Academy Rector
Academy Rector
Sterling Grove
Oblivion Ring
Oblivion Ring
Crucible of Worlds
Helm of Obedience
Parallax Wave
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
1st hand: 2 Leyline of Sanctity, Turn 4 Suppression Field, Turn 5 Attack for 10, Turn 6 Attack for 10.
2nd hand: Leyline of Sanctity, Leyline of the Void, Turn 2 Suppression Field, Turn 10 Suppression Field, Turn 11 Attack for 12, Turn 12 Attack for 12
3rd Hand: 2 Leyline of Vitality, Turn 2 Crop Rotation, Turn 2 Suppression Field, Turn 3 Oblivion Ring, Turn 4 Oblivion Ring, Turn 7 Attack for 16, Turn 8 Attack for 16
4th Hand: Leyline of Sanctity, Turn 2 Sterling Grove, Turn 3 Oblivion Ring+Activate Grove, Turn 4 Attack for 6, Turn 5 Attack for 6, Turn 6 Attack for 6, Turn 7 Attack for 6
5th Hand: Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Sanctity, Turn 1 Suppression Field, Turn 2 Academy Rector, Turn 3 Crop Rotation, Turn 3 Sacrifice Academy Rector to Phyrexian Tower, Turn 3 Attack for 10, Turn 4 Attack for 10
6th Hand: Leyline of Sanctity, Leyline of Vitality, Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Anticipation, Turn 1 Attack for 16, Turn 2 Attack for 16
7th Hand: Leyline of Sanctity, Leyline of Lifeforce, Turn 2 Crop Rotation, Turn 2 Suppression Field, Turn 3 Attack for 10, Turn 4 Attack for 10
8th Hand: Leyline of Lifeforce, Turn 2 Suppression Field, Turn 3 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 4 Suppression Field, Turn 5 Attack for 8, Turn 6 Attack for 8, Turn 7 Attack for 8 (fetching Tree of Tales rather than Suppression Field is less disruption but the same clock. It could be the right play if the opponent's life is a resource, such as if they are on Griselbrand or Ad Nauseam)
9th Hand: Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of Vitality, Turn 1 Serum Powder, Turn 2 cycle Horizon Canopy, Turn 2 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 3 Attack for 8, Turn 4 Attack for 8, Turn 5 Attack for 8
10th Hand: Leyline of Lifeforce, Turn 2 Suppression Field, Turn 3 Crop Rotation, Turn 4 Attack for 6, Turn 5 Attack for 6, Turn 5 Crucible of Worlds, Turn 6 Sterling Grove, Turn 6 Attack for 6, Turn 7 Attack for 8
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Noxious Revival
Noxious Revival
Noxious Revival
Noxious Revival
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
Opalescence
Opalescence
Opalescence
Opalescence
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Leyline of Lightning
Leyline of Lightning
Leyline of Lightning
Leyline of Lightning
Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
1st Hand: Mulligan to Oblivion. Off to a bad start.
2nd Hand: Leyline of Lightning, Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Lifeforce, Turn 2 Idyllic Tutor, Turn 3 Attack for 12, Turn 4 Attack for 12
3rd Hand: 2 Leyline of Sanctity, Turn 5 Enlightned Tutor, Turn 6 Suppression Field, Turn 7 Serum Powder, Turn 8 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 9 Attack for 10, Turn 10 Attack for 10
4th Hand: Mulligan to Oblivion
5th Hand: Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of the Void, Turn 2 Attack for 8, Turn 3 Attack for 8, Turn 4 Attack for 8
6th Hand: Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of the Meek, Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of the Void, Turn 2 Attack for 16, Turn 3 Attack for 16
7th Hand: Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Vitality, Turn 1 Suppression Field, Turn 2 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 3 Suppression Field Turn 3 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 4 Attack for 12, Turn 5 Attack for 16
8th Hand: Leyline of Punishment, Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of Anticipation, Turn 1 Attack for 16, Turn 2 Attack for 16
9th Hand: Leyline of the Void, 2 Leyline of Vitality, Leyline of Anticipation, Turn 2 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 2 Serum Powder, Turn 3 Attack for 16, Turn 4 Attack for 16
10th Hand: Leyline of Sanctity, Leyline of the Void, Turn 1 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 2 Suppression Field, Turn 3 Idyllic Tutor, Turn 4 Suppression Field, Turn 5 Attack for 12, Turn 6 Attack for 16
Again, I will let the reader draw their own conclusions. I would encourage you to test both lists, as well as to count the number of wins and losses in your test games (rather than the magnitude of those wins/losses or how they "feel").
I will say that I found myself missing the mana from Petrified Field, so I might will go back to that.
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Petrified Field
Petrified Field
Petrified Field
Petrified Field
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
Opalescence
Opalescence
Opalescence
Opalescence
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Leyline of Lightning
Leyline of Lightning
Leyline of Lightning
Leyline of Lightning
Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
1st Hand: Leyline of Sanctity, Leyline of Vitality, Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of Lightning, Turn 1 Idyllic Tutor, Turn 2 Attack for 16, Turn 3 Attack for 16
2nd Hand: 2 Leyline of Lightning, Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Anticipation, Turn 1 Suppression Field, Turn 2 Serum Powder, Turn 4 Attack for 18, Turn 5 Attack for 18
3rd Hand: Leyline of Vitality, Leyline of the Meek, Turn 2 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 3 Suppression Field, Turn 4 Suppression Field, Turn 5 Attack for 12, Turn 6 Attack for 12
4th Hand: Leyline of Vitality, 2 Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of Punishment, Turn 3 Idyllic Tutor, Turn 4 Attack for 16, Turn 5 Attack for 16
5th Hand: Leyline of the Meek, Leyline of Punishment, Turn 3 Serum Powder, Turn 4 Idyllic Tutor, Turn 5 Suppression Field, Turn 6 Attack for 10, Turn 7 Attack for 10
6th Hand: 2 Leyline of Punishment, Leyline of Vitality, Leyline of Lifeforce, Turn 1 Attack for 16, Turn 2 Attack for 16
7th Hand: Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of the Void, Turn 2 Attack for 8, Turn 3 Attack for 8, Turn 4 Attack for 12
8th Hand: Leyline of the Meek, Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of Lightning, Turn 1 Suppression Field, Turn 2 Idyllic Tutor, Turn 3 Attack for 14, Turn 4 Attack for 14
9th Hand: 2 Leyline of Punishment, Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Vitality, Turn 1 Suppression Field, Turn 2 Serum Powder, Turn 3 Leyline of Sanctity, Turn 5 Idyllic Tutor, Turn 6 Attack for 18, Turn 7 Attack for 18
10th Hand: 2 Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of Punishment, Leyline of Lightning, Turn 2 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 3 Attack for 16, Turn 4 Attack for 16
Again, I will resist the temptation to comment on these results. I would encourage the reader to try more than 10 hands with each list s/he considers. 20 I would say is a bare minimum, and 100 is about right to get a feel for how the deck will goldfish.
I have played my list extensively at local weekly Legacy and more recently at a Legacy side event at GP Richmond. I know exactly how the deck runs.
I'm not sure where you're getting "3 extra tutors". The list you posted had 4 E. tutor, 2 Idyllic Tutor, for a total of 6. My list runs 4 E. Tutor, 1 Sterling Grove, 3 Academy Rector for a total of 8. Yes, Rector is a tutor. No, I don't need Phyrexian Tower (although it's not hard to find with 4-5 tutors). Even my current list, which has only 2 Rectors maindeck, is up one tutor from your list, not -3. On top of which, your list didn't have Helm, which is a tutorable (though conditional) 5th Opalescence.
The deck I posted has about 69% to open with two or more Leylines, before mulligans. If we take mulligans into account, we're at an 87% to see 2+ Leylines in our first hand OR our mull to 6. What good is two Leylines, you ask? It puts us far ahead. Suppression Field, Crucible, Serum Powder, Crop Rotation, O-Ring, And Enlightened Tutor are all viable plays turn 1. Most of those plays on turn 1 allow for an easy Turn 2 Opalescence. To say nothing of the possibility of "Oops, dump hand, Opalescence" turn 1. Even with two Leylines out, Turn 2 Opalescence can be as simple as Sanctum, tap, Sanctum (or Crop Rotation into second Sanctum).
Your goldfishing thing is cute, but doesn't really mean anything unless you can post all of your mulligan choices, lines of play, and repeat about 1000 times instead of 10.
Edit: All of this, though, is moot from the original point. The point I'm trying to get across is this: if your deck has 32 Leylines in it, and the Opalescence combo pieces/tutors, and nothing else, you have no lines of play when you stumble. Your Leylines do nothing. I do not want to be in a place where I have a 25% chance to draw something that might let me recover two or three turns after I draw it. I want to know that I have options available, and a ton of ways to find those options. Both of our decks can, and have, combo'd out blazingly fast before they could do any things the difference is, when I stumbled against Merfolk in Richmond, I gained infinite life and he scooped, whereas if I'd had 32 Leylines and fewer tutors...I would've just stared at the 4-cost do-nothing's I kept drawing until he killed me. When Shown and Tell dropped a 3-mana Emrakul, I had O-ring instead of a second Leyline of Anticipation.
I have played my list extensively at local weekly Legacy and more recently at a Legacy side event at GP Richmond. I know exactly how the deck runs.
I'm not sure where you're getting "3 extra tutors". The list you posted had 4 E. tutor, 2 Idyllic Tutor, for a total of 6. My list runs 4 E. Tutor, 1 Sterling Grove, 3 Academy Rector for a total of 8. Yes, Rector is a tutor. No, I don't need Phyrexian Tower (although it's not hard to find with 4-5 tutors). Even my current list, which has only 2 Rectors maindeck, is up one tutor from your list, not -3. On top of which, your list didn't have Helm, which is a tutorable (though conditional) 5th Opalescence.
The deck I posted has about 69% to open with two or more Leylines, before mulligans. If we take mulligans into account, we're at an 87% to see 2+ Leylines in our first hand OR our mull to 6. What good is two Leylines, you ask? It puts us far ahead. Suppression Field, Crucible, Serum Powder, Crop Rotation, O-Ring, And Enlightened Tutor are all viable plays turn 1. Most of those plays on turn 1 allow for an easy Turn 2 Opalescence. To say nothing of the possibility of "Oops, dump hand, Opalescence" turn 1. Even with two Leylines out, Turn 2 Opalescence can be as simple as Sanctum, tap, Sanctum (or Crop Rotation into second Sanctum).
Your goldfishing thing is cute, but doesn't really mean anything unless you can post all of your mulligan choices, lines of play, and repeat about 1000 times instead of 10.
Edit: All of this, though, is moot from the original point. The point I'm trying to get across is this: if your deck has 32 Leylines in it, and the Opalescence combo pieces/tutors, and nothing else, you have no lines of play when you stumble. Your Leylines do nothing. I do not want to be in a place where I have a 25% chance to draw something that might let me recover two or three turns after I draw it. I want to know that I have options available, and a ton of ways to find those options. Both of our decks can, and have, combo'd out blazingly fast before they could do any things the difference is, when I stumbled against Merfolk in Richmond, I gained infinite life and he scooped, whereas if I'd had 32 Leylines and fewer tutors...I would've just stared at the 4-cost do-nothing's I kept drawing until he killed me. When Shown and Tell dropped a 3-mana Emrakul, I had O-ring instead of a second Leyline of Anticipation.
I absolutely do not count Academy Rector. How do you plan on getting him into the graveyard? Are you counting on your opponent not having Swords to Plowshares and attacking into him? I have 8 tutors, you have 5. 8 minus 5 is three. That seems pretty hard to debate. The IQ List had 6, but my list in the primer and in the goldfishes has 8. Did the fact that I repeatedly mentioned Noxious Revival and Petrified Field not give this away? Or did you just decide your list was better without reading any others?
Yeah, I could post every possible line of play or you could just trust that I have a clue how to play the deck. When you're goldfishing, there's only a couple lines that you have to consider. It's tough to trust another human being, I know, but I think you can do it. I will admit that your list mulligans a lot less, which is maybe what you wanted to hear, but it also produces a lot more hands that are unacceptably weak against a single Swords to Plowshares, which happens to be one of the most-played cards in the format.
You don't have more ways to find meaningful cards, and if you have more meaningful cards it's by the narrowest of margins. Maybe your deck works in your local metagame. That absolutely does not make it viable for a major tournament. To win a big tournament, you need more than "my deck can eventually draw into some value cards".
As to your actual choices: Helm of Obedience is awful (and a 2-card combo), 2 O-Ring is fine, Parallax Wave is fine but win-more if you actually run a decent number of Leylines in your Leyline deck (also it's another 2-card combo), and Crucible of Worlds is another two-card combo. It's entirely possible (read: overwhelmingly likely) for Parallax, Crucible, and Rector to all be blank draws, in which case you have decidedly less action. You do have two Oblivion Ring which are trumps in 1-2 matchups and Fog in many others. The idea that you O-Ring something and are just dandy simply does not hold water. You still need other action. Imagine that O-Ring is a full-blown Time Stretch for 2W. That's still not enough in any situation where you're way behind to start with.
Regarding recovering: You're 15% to draw something that lets you win the turn after you draw it (or virtually so), not something that let's you "recover" 2-3 turns later. It's simply false to claim that Enlightened Tutor takes 2-3 turns to cast Opalescence after the first is countered. It takes one turn, just like Idyllic Tutor. In the meantime, you can draw a blank Crucible of Worlds, a blank Parallax Wave, a probably-blank Helm of Obedience, or an Oblivion Ring to remove one threat and leave you still searching for a topdeck that WILL actually take 2-3 turns to recover. I think the edge here clearly goes to the heavier Leyline list.
The deck I posted has about 69% to open with two or more Leylines, before mulligans. If we take mulligans into account, we're at an 87% to see 2+ Leylines in our first hand OR our mull to 6. What good is two Leylines, you ask? It puts us far ahead. Suppression Field, Crucible, Serum Powder, Crop Rotation, O-Ring, And Enlightened Tutor are all viable plays turn 1. Most of those plays on turn 1 allow for an easy Turn 2 Opalescence. To say nothing of the possibility of "Oops, dump hand, Opalescence" turn 1. Even with two Leylines out, Turn 2 Opalescence can be as simple as Sanctum, tap, Sanctum (or Crop Rotation into second Sanctum).
Serum Powder and Crucible are 3 mana. You're unlikely to be able to play them turn 1. Serum Powder is lackluster as a turn 1 play, and can get you Wastelanded. Crucible does nothing Turn 1 except shut off Wasteland. I have Petrified Field to recover from this off a single card, where actually have fewer outs generally (against the most-played disruptive card in the format!) O-Ring ranges from "viable" to "garbage dumpster" on turn 1. Suppression Field is incredible, but my list is actually much more likely to play Suppression Field turn 1, as you're more likely to have turn 1 Serra's Sanctum with multiple Leylines. Your list is incredibly less likely to have turn 1 Opalescence. Drawing multiple Sanctum, Opalescence, and Leylines is actually an area where the non-toolbox list is fundamentally better, typically killing in 2 swings instead of 3.
You seem to have this idea that your list is able to combo out just as well. That is wrong.
Each Leyline in the opening hand is an additional mana off Serra's Sanctum without having to slow down to make land drops, and without diminishing the value of Opalescence once it resolves. This makes a heavier Leyline list fundamentally faster, fundamentally weaker against Wasteland (which is why I run 4 Petrified Field / Noxious Revival) and fundamentally more compact. It takes fewer cards to win the game once the game has actually started.
Let me try to take a different approach, since you apparently reject both theory and goldfishing as indicators of how a deck will perform.
Are you actually winning? You seem really proud of this one time that Parallax Wave did something and wasn't a dead draw versus Merfolk, but are you actually winning with regularity at your local store? What percentage of game 1's do you take? Is Leyline of Sanctity winning games by itself (ex: vs Burn)? Is Leyline of the Void winning games by itself?
Calm down. Of course I trust other people to pilot the deck. I'm sure most people would pilot it better than me. But that doesn't make your analysis methodically sound. Scientific papers don't just have rows of data captioned with "You trust us to do this right, don't you guys?" If you want your goldfishes to be statistically relevant, we have to KNOW that you made the optimal play, the optimal mulligan choices, and that every part of your method was fair and repeatable, and you need a whole lot more than 10 trials. When I said 1000 I was lowballing it by at least an order of magnitude.
Crucible is fantastic turn 1 for enabling Canopy chaining, Wastelocking, and using multiple Sanctums for crazy mana. Powder is an amazing turn 1 play because it frequently is the 4th mana for a turn 2 Opalescence. If you don't think Powder is worth playing turn 1, you're playing the deck wrong (any version of it).
Rector is absolutely a reliable tutor. There are 5 ways to find Tower, plus Tower itself. If you have a Rector out, your opponent is going to have to swing into it. Their only other choice is to let you off them for ages. I have never, in all of my games, had trouble making Rector die. Which leaves me with 8 tutors to find Opalescence, 4 to find Helm/Crucible, and 5 to find Sanctum or a utility land. Essentially everything in the deck exists in at least 5 copies, making it extremely consistent.
Oblivion Ring: Clutch in all SnT matchups, obv. Hitting Batterskull is not a fog, it's a huge swing. Taking out a Goyf usually buys you multiple turns. Hitting a PW is huge. Take out Heritage Druid? Just crippled Elves. Exile Aether Vial against Goblins or Maverick or Merfolk? Pretty good.
Parallax Wave: occasionally a two-card combo that instawins against almost every deck. Other times, it's protection of your enchantments or mini-oblivions. Don't need Opalescence to stall them out for a few turns. Besides, if you run at least 8 tutors, you shouldn't have trouble getting Opalescence anyway...
Crucible: As mentioned several times, it does a lot more than just protect you from Wasteland, though it does that wonderfully. Horizon Canopy draws you tons of cards, Wasteland locks out opponents, multiple Sanctums generate huge amounts of mana, Gemstone Mine becomes permanent. Of you want to keep trying to downplay it's usefulness, you will only be sounding like you're in denial.
Helm: Alternate wincon. Doesn't require combat, or even damage. Usually wins in a single turn, as opposed to Leyline beats that take 2-3. And that's assuming your opponent has no blocks or removal. Yes, it's a two-card combo. If only both cards were easily tutorable and at least one of them was exceptionally strong in its own right...that would be a solid, Legacy-viable combo right there.
I am not ignoring theory or goldfishing. The fact that I have valid arguments as to why your theory is incomplete or inaccurate does not mean I am rejecting theory in general. Thank you for giving everyone an excellent example of a classic logical fallacy, though. Here's lesson in theory for you: if you can win by turn 3 50% of the time, then you're losing half your games to your deck. Of the 50% that remain, you will lose maybe half of those to your opponent having an answer. If your deck has counteranswers, meta hate, and tools for such situations, you can win more games.
Not that my personal anecdotes mean anything more than your statistically flawed goldfishes, but yes, I am winning. I typically do very well against Maverick, Pox, Delver, Elves, and obviously Burn/Storm/Dredge. I typically do decently against Stoneblade. Show and Tell is fairly rough, Oring and Parallax wave help, but a lot of the players I usually see wreck me with Blood Moon. BUG is a toss-up.
If you're having trouble understanding my theory, or grasping that my list is based on extensive testing, you can check out this thread from a while back.
Calm down. Of course I trust other people to pilot the deck. I'm sure most people would pilot it better than me. But that doesn't make your analysis methodically sound. Scientific papers don't just have rows of data captioned with "You trust us to do this right, don't you guys?" If you want your goldfishes to be statistically relevant, we have to KNOW that you made the optimal play, the optimal mulligan choices, and that every part of your method was fair and repeatable, and you need a whole lot more than 10 trials. When I said 1000 I was lowballing it by at least an order of magnitude.
Crucible is fantastic turn 1 for enabling Canopy chaining, Wastelocking, and using multiple Sanctums for crazy mana. Powder is an amazing turn 1 play because it frequently is the 4th mana for a turn 2 Opalescence. If you don't think Powder is worth playing turn 1, you're playing the deck wrong (any version of it).
Rector is absolutely a reliable tutor. There are 5 ways to find Tower, plus Tower itself. If you have a Rector out, your opponent is going to have to swing into it. Their only other choice is to let you off them for ages. I have never, in all of my games, had trouble making Rector die. Which leaves me with 8 tutors to find Opalescence, 4 to find Helm/Crucible, and 5 to find Sanctum or a utility land. Essentially everything in the deck exists in at least 5 copies, making it extremely consistent.
Oblivion Ring: Clutch in all SnT matchups, obv. Hitting Batterskull is not a fog, it's a huge swing. Taking out a Goyf usually buys you multiple turns. Hitting a PW is huge. Take out Heritage Druid? Just crippled Elves. Exile Aether Vial against Goblins or Maverick or Merfolk? Pretty good.
Parallax Wave: occasionally a two-card combo that instawins against almost every deck. Other times, it's protection of your enchantments or mini-oblivions. Don't need Opalescence to stall them out for a few turns. Besides, if you run at least 8 tutors, you shouldn't have trouble getting Opalescence anyway...
Crucible: As mentioned several times, it does a lot more than just protect you from Wasteland, though it does that wonderfully. Horizon Canopy draws you tons of cards, Wasteland locks out opponents, multiple Sanctums generate huge amounts of mana, Gemstone Mine becomes permanent. Of you want to keep trying to downplay it's usefulness, you will only be sounding like you're in denial.
Helm: Alternate wincon. Doesn't require combat, or even damage. Usually wins in a single turn, as opposed to Leyline beats that take 2-3. And that's assuming your opponent has no blocks or removal. Yes, it's a two-card combo. If only both cards were easily tutorable and at least one of them was exceptionally strong in its own right...that would be a solid, Legacy-viable combo right there.
I am not ignoring theory or goldfishing. The fact that I have valid arguments as to why your theory is incomplete or inaccurate does not mean I am rejecting theory in general. Thank you for giving everyone an excellent example of a classic logical fallacy, though. Here's lesson in theory for you: if you can win by turn 3 50% of the time, then you're losing half your games to your deck. Of the 50% that remain, you will lose maybe half of those to your opponent having an answer. If your deck has counteranswers, meta hate, and tools for such situations, you can win more games.
Not that my personal anecdotes mean anything more than your statistically flawed goldfishes, but yes, I am winning. I typically do very well against Maverick, Pox, Delver, Elves, and obviously Burn/Storm/Dredge. I typically do decently against Stoneblade. Show and Tell is fairly rough, Oring and Parallax wave help, but a lot of the players I usually see wreck me with Blood Moon. BUG is a toss-up.
If you're having trouble understanding my theory, or grasping that my list is based on extensive testing, you can check out this thread from a while back.
I like the fantasy world where you get your 1-ofs right when you need them, have never used your tutors already, your opponents never just kill you while you mess around, and never draw dead.
Actual testing shows that your list might have some weaknesses, so your only response is to demand that I perform an onerous amount of work to "prove" that it has them. You won't ever reach 100% certainty just by piling on more samples.
I encourage anyone interested in the deck to test both lists.
Your childish rebuttals are really more revealing of your emotional state and bias than they are of any sort of valid statements.
I am not demanding you do any sort of work to prove anything. I am merely stating that your goldfish hands are not rigorous, methodical, or numerous enough to be statistically meaningful. I am not stating this because your results upset me; I am stating it because it is truth. I said the same thing about my own personal results, which are heavily tilted in my own favor, but you seem to have skipped over that part of my post.
I do not live in any sort of fantasy world. I simply play a deck with toolbox answers and lots of tutors and engines. It is not an unusual strategy, especially in Eternal formats. I am sorry that my personal play experience does not agree with your theoretical view of what "should" happen, and that you cannot listen calmly and objectively to the theory I am trying to explain to you.
The goal of this deck is to play a large number of Leylines for free. It uses them to fuel Serra's Sanctum, and often win the game with an early Opalescence.
I play a version of this deck that's all-in on starting with Serra's Sanctum. I'll explain that logic below.
Here's my current decklist:
4 Serum Powder
4 Petrified Field
4 Suppression Field
4 Opalescence
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Idyllic Tutor
4 Leyline of Lightning
4 Leyline of Punishment
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of Anticipation
4 Leyline of the Meek
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Leyline of Vitality
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Hero of Bladehold
1 Rule of Law
1 Ethersworn Canonist
Card Choices
This includes my own choices as well as options others have played/considered.
Mana Sources
Petrified Field is a card I've found to be extremely good as both a mana source and protection against Wasteland.
Horizon Canopy serves as both a white and green source for builds that run both colors, and can be sacrificed to draw when it's not needed.
Lotus Bloom and Lotus Petal are artifact acceleration that can be found with Enlightened Tutor.
Tree of Tales, Ancient Den, and Darksteel Citadel can be used in tutor-heavy builds. Citadel also provides slight protection against Wasteland.
Plains, Forest, and Savannah tap for mana. Nothing special here.
Karakas bounces Legendary creatures. This has a lot of potential with Leyline of Singularity.
Idyllic Tutor only find enchantments, but it puts them straight into your hand.
Crop Rotation usually finds Serra's Sanctum, but requires green mana. It becomes a lot better once you're running Karakas.
Enduring Ideal is typically too expensive, but provides a resilient win in a single card.
Serum Powder helps get you a hand containing sufficient Leylines and action. It's also a mana source, which can matter.
Expedition Map can find Serra's Sanctum without requiring green mana or card disadvantage. It becomes a lot better once you're running specialty lands like Karakas.
Leyline of Sanctity helps against Burn and some combo decks, while providing decent utility against the field.
Leyline of the Void helps against graveyard combo, and has some utility against the field.
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Lifeforce can be used to help craft a creature-based sideboard against opponents with Force of Will or other counter-spells.
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of Lightning typically doesn't trigger for a relevant amount.
Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Singularity can make you Legend rule multiples of itself or other Leylines. It can be used if you really need it for critical mass, or if you're running Karakas, but should be avoided otherwise.
Goblin Charbelcher can be used if you have a low enough land count, and will then kill in 2-3 turns (depending somewhat on luck).
Helm of Obedience can be used with Leyline of the Void for an instant kill, given 5 mana (or 4 and then 1 mana next turn).
Eternal Dragon is slow, but helps supplement the manabase, provide card advantage, and is recursive.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Ajani Goldmane are only four mana, and so can potentially reach play on the first or second turn, early enough to steal many games. This is more strongly true of Elspeth than Ajani.
Baneslayer Angel, Gideon Jura, and Elspeth Tirel are a little bit too expensive at 5 mana, but certainly worth considering, especially in mana-heavy builds.
Consecrate Land and Sacred Ground are mostly obsolete in comparison to Suppression Field, but could be run as extra insurance against Wasteland.
Mana Tithe can help keep enemy spells under control.
Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile function as spot removal when needed.
Replenish can potentially help against enchantment sweepers, but typically can't be cast via Serra's Sanctum in that case, so is only really worth considering in builds with a lot of other mana sources.
Tithe and/or Gift of Estates can help supplement the deck's normally-shaky manabase by searching out plains to play.
Oblivion Ring is a versatile answer card that can be found by most of the deck's tutors.
Parallax Wave combines with Opalescence to exile infinite creatures, as well as possibly buying some time by itself.
Lodestone Golem fits into the creature strategy I like to run. By bringing lots of creatures, you increase the number of threats in the deck and potentially make them uncounterable via Leyline of Lifeforce.
Hero of Bladehold fits into the same creature strategy I just mentioned. It can present an incredibly fast clock if you have Leyline of the Meek.
Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull present a reasonable clock and a way to trump creature strategies.
Ethersworn Canonist puts the opponent on a clock while cutting off combo options. Enlightened Tutor can help find it.
Rule of Law helps shut down combo, and can be found by most of the deck's tutors.
Silence, Orim's Chant, and Angel's Grace can help stop combo decks as well.
Faerie Macabre, Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog, Relic of Progenitus, Wheel of Sun and Moon and Ravenous Trap are all candidates to supplement Leyline of the Void against graveyard-based decks.
I will add more sideboard cards as people make a case for them.
The logic of relying on starting with Serra's Sanctum in hand:
Some numbers from my personal testing with the list above, assuming that I'm on the play:
Just over 50% chance of turn 2 Opalescence.
~20% Chance of losing to your own mulligans. (counting all mulligans to oblivion and games where you do nothing for 6+ turns)
Average Opalescence on about turn 3.
~50% chance of being resilient to Counterspells, Wasteland, or both while scoring a victory in the first few turns of the game.
Simple play guide for my list:
You'll typically start the game by playing all of your Leylines for free.
You now use Serra's Sanctum to cast Opalescence or an Idyllic Tutor or Enlightened Tutor to find it. If you don't have any of those, keep Serra's Sanctum in your hand until you have something worth casting. Since you have 12 cards which are/find Opalescence, this doesn't normally take more than a few turns.
Once you have Opalescence in play, you can attack with any Leylines or Suppression Fields you control. Since the Leylines been under your control since before the game began, they don't have summoning sickness and can attack right away. Often only 1-2 attacks will kill an opponent.
You'll often want to cast Suppression Field on the first turn if you can. It shuts down enemy Wasteland and Fetchlands.
If your opponent destroys Serra's Sanctum, you can use Petrified Field to get it back. Additionally, it can tap for the last mana you need.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I look forward to killing you soon
Parallax Wave is win-more, at least in my list. I've tested it and like the infinite removal and the ability to save creatures, but it's too expensive and relies on Opalescence.
I like Oblivion Ring and was thinking about trying to fit it in after my comment about possibly needing some way to deal with creatures. I might cut a Lodestone Golem or two to work something like that into the sideboard.
I'll add them to the card choices section.
I know there was, just as there were threads when the first Leylines came out several years ago. Why should we have this thread, then?
1) I think (or at least hope) my all-in-on-Sanctum plan is a major advance and a major upgrade for the deck, which also changes deck construction significantly.
2) I think the creature-based sideboard plan is entirely novel, as they've been printing better and better creatures, to the point where you can dominate the board with an early creature and take games from control. I think this advancement justifies discussion, and the old thread is effectively dead, making that thread not the place to do such discussion.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I have a suggestion:
I removed 4 Leyline of Lightning and put 3 Expedition Map and 1 Consecrate Land to add more possibilities of keeping a hand without Serra's Sactum.
For example this type of hands would still be viable:
1 Expedition Map
2 Petrified Field
1 Leyline
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Leyline
1 Enlightened Tutor
I'm not sure if I make myself clear but I tried
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Horizon Canopy
3 City of Brass
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Wasteland
1 Tree of Tales
4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of Vitality
3 Leyline of Lifeforce
3 Leyline of Anticipation
4 Opalescence
4 Crop Rotation
3 Academy Rector
1 Sterling Grove
1 Expedition Map
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Parallax Wave
4 Suppression Field
3 Rest in Peace
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Ghostly Prison
1 City of Solitude
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
Having loads of tutors and toolbox answers, especially Wastelock, is brutal against most decks. Combined with the splash hate form maindeck Leylines, the fast combo clock, and the stronger sideboard hate, you should find yourself having a lot of consistency and some very strong lines of play.
Obviously, "oops infinite life/removal/protect my doodz" is very good.
Phyrexian Tower-->Rector is a tutor AND a response to K-Grip. With Lifeforce out, it's uncounterable. In short, completely unfair.
Canopy+Crucible is pretty good. I like drawing cards.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
If wizards would print a green, black and white version of Hydroblast and Blue Elemental Blast Painter could be done in every color.
RRImperial PainterRR
UUUUMonoOmniTellUUUU
BGURWDredgeWRUGB
Dead draws is just gonna happen with this deck. The only solution is to optimize your starting hands to decrease the number of 'live draws' you need on the first place.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Delver got blown out by Opalescence in one game, and I eked a Helmline win at 1 life in the third game. Games 2 AND 3 he tried to Bolt me at three life, forgetting I had Sanctity.
Had 3 intensely close games with Storm. Actually that's not entirely accurate. Had one blowout game against Storm via Opening Sanctity, Void, Anticipation, Turn 1 Suppression Field (I've maindecked all four for now). Then had two very close games in which he barely got there with goblins. Game 2 came down to awful mulligans; My first 7 had Sanctity and Suppression Field, but not much else. Two Powders and a mull to 4 later, I had seen nothing except worse variants of that same hand.
Played all three matches without a SB, 3Sphere and/or Chalice would've wrecked house every time.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
What do you guys think about Golden Wish? It fetches just about every wincon this deck has.
4 Crop Rotation
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 City of Solitude
4 Leyline of Anticipation
4 Leyline of Lightning
4 Leyline of Punishment
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Opalescence
2 Privileged Position
4 Sterling Grove
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Caverns
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Serra's Sanctum
Decks I play
Legacy
Dredge 0
DredgeGBRU
AffinityXRUB
GoblinsRWB
10 land StompyG
BurnR
DreadstillURW
BelcherGR
Death and Taxes W
Enchantress GWR
BUILDING
Legacy Lands GBRUW
I'll never tell you the flavor text of Teferi's Imp!!
4 City of Brass
3 Temple Garden
4 Serra's Sanctum
Artifacts
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Serum Powder
Enchantments
4 Leyline of Anticipation
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Leyline of Punishment
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Meek
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Vitality
4 Opalescence
3 Suppression Field
4 Crop Rotation
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Idyllic Tutor
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Hero of Bladehold
1 Suppression Field
4 Cavern of Souls
8th place at a SCG Super Invitational Qualifier in Missouri over the weekend.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
Spells - 20
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
1 slaughter pact
1 path to exile
1 Disfigure
1 damnation
3 lingering souls
NCP - 4
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bow of Nylea
4 verdant Catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 temple garden
1 Treetop Village
2 stirring wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Thrun, the last troll
2 Duress
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Stony Silence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Back to nature
1 Utter End
1 Golgari Charm
I do like Gemstone Caverns over Temple Garden however, but the 1 card you exile may be tight. It does allow you to get the turn 0 Sanctum though...
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
I think Temple Garden is a mistake, it turns on a few free hate cards like Submerge when you could be playing something like Brushland, Horizon Canopy, or Razorverge Thicket
I might try something like:
1 Tree of Tales
4 Horizon Canopy
2 Brushland
4 Serra's Sanctum
Artifacts
4 Serum Powder
Enchantments
4 Leyline of Anticipation
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Leyline of Punishment
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Meek
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Vitality
4 Opalescence
3 Suppression Field
4 Crop Rotation
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Idyllic Tutor
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Hero of Bladehold
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Cavern of Souls
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I'm glad that the deck did well, but I feel like this particular list is too stripped down and has too high a concentration of Leylines for the statistics to balance out.
I recently played in a Legacy side event at an SCG Open, and I think the tutors are the key to making the deck work. It might get a little over-complicated, but having a toolbox can make this the ultimate Meta Deck. I made Merdolk scoop with infinite removal+life, stalled out SneakShow with three Fields and an O-ring, and tutored up City of Solitude to save another Merfolk match. I also completely tilted one guy with Turn 1 Crucible into Wasteland, Canopy, and multiple Sanctum shenanigans. I always had options, and I almost always needed them.
One major change I'm considering is adding a single Mikokoro and 3-4 Spirit of the Labyrinth. Spirit is a 2cmc enchantment, the most important cost for us, and beats hard without Opalescence out, AND hates on Brainstorm/Jace/Ponder/Griselbrand by himself. Put the two together, and you have a ridiculous engine. I might also want a miser Solitary Confinement maindeck if I do this.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Can you post your current and/or proposed Spirit of Labyrinth lists? The last version you suggested didn't have the Fields main, and I've been toying around with building Leylines Win as an additional deck for when I don't think Manaless Dredge or Thopter Control are a good choice in the meta.
I've been goldfishing with Chris's IQ list and trying my own attempts to introduce some toolbox elements. The problem I found was that without a sufficient concentration of Leylines, the toolbox just ended up diluting any chance of actually having enough power on table to actually present significant early game pressure. A couple O-Rings and Suppression Fields doesn't seem enough to stop most Delver/TNN/Stoneblade decks from running you over with plenty of counter spell backup, especially if they can Force your first attempt or two at disruption. Likewise, Suppression Field does nicely against some combo decks, but with no counters or discard of your own, it doesn't seem like you can stop enough of them.
How much toolbox do you need before that strategy starts becoming stronger than all-in "Swing for 12 or 16 on turn 1 and 2"? That seems to me to be the primary "combo" kill for a deck like this. Any later than that and you're suddenly potentially facing things like Griselbrand or Emrakul or Elesh Norn or an entire horde of Zombies, Elves or Merfolk on the board, and suddenly even three or four 4/4s and a few 2/2 or 3/3 is not that strong. Or they've had time to miracle a terminus, dig to a Supreme or Deluge, hit a few edicts, or otherwise start to clear your board.
I'd like for the toolbox approach to work, if only because I like having interactive options if the all-in 'win turn 1 or 2' plan fails, but it just feels like every time I remove a leyline, it cuts the odds that I'm going to have that early critical mass.
Suppression Field is extremely strong as an interactive element/pseudo-ramp spell. I really think you need a critical mass of Leylines or something like 8 (Sanctity plus Void) or just zero. If zero, you're probably running something like Enchantress with Opalescence as a more conditional but more compact/faster kill. If 8 you're basically building a non-green Enchantment Control deck, and Opalescence becomes very questionable as you'd probably prefer Moat and/or Humility.
As to why you need a critical mass: 2 opening-hand Leyline I would say is the bare minimum to be able to have a fast clock off Opalescence as well as to be able to build up from Suppression Field. If you mulligan once, 2 Leyline in the opening hand is one-third of your hand, so Leylines should be at least one-third of your deck. That is twenty cards. If you want any sort of consistency in terms of playing Leylines, you want closer to 3 out of 6, which suggests around 30 in the deck.
I have tested 36 (including Leyline of Singularity) but found the Legend Rule to be too onerous to justify, as well as interfering with many of the most obvious sideboard plans.
I often look at opening-hand Leyline of Lightning and wonder if I would prefer it to be something else, like Crop Rotation or O-Ring. Usually, I just prefer a blank Leyline to power up Sanctum and swing for 4.
I think you can barely squeeze in Crop Rotation and 4-7 land, but it feels to me like you open yourself up to stuff like Wasteland and tempo plays without much gain in consistency. Wasteland on Sanctum you have to draw another Sanctum or another two-card combo, as opposed to a single-card reboot button. Serra's Sanctum is a one-card mana engine, while Crop Rotation is a two-card combo just to be able to cast anything. The one advantage is post-board, when you decide you want to cast aggro spells for 3-4 mana.
I'm really liking Noxious Revival in place of Petrified Field. They don't provide mana except in certain circumstances, but they help protect against both Wasteland and counters.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
As far as diluting the Leylines goes, I've not really had a problem. Opening hand math is something near and dear to my heart, so I did a lot of careful wolframming before settling on a minimum number of Leylines. 18-24 is the best range, and I usually stay around 19 or 20. A little more than that and you are limiting live deck slots without significantly improving the odds. Significantly more than that (28-36) and you are significantly improving your odds, but also gutting your deck of useful slots and strong topdecks.
The reason the toolbox version is so strong is simply because it has options. If your deck is 36 Leylines, 4 Opalescence, 4 Serum Powder, 4 Sanctum, 4 Rotation, 4 E. Tutor, well, what do you do when Opalescence gets countered? How do you deal with Batterskull? Delver and Goyf? Any situation like this that you raise as an argument against the toolbox is actually MORE relevant to the "all-in" version. Why? Because you have more Leylines, but you are not improving your odds of finding Sanctum or Opalscence. If we both have the same chance to find those key pieces, then it doesn't matter how many Leylines we have out, Leylines are not our limiting factor.
So, if we are on equal footing as far as the Turn 1-3 plan goes, what do we do beyond that? Well, if you're running a toolbox, and multiple tutor outlets, you find whatever you need for the situation at hand. What does the non-toolbox deck do when the Turn 1 doesn't work? Flounder until it hits another Opalescence? You mentioned that missing the combo turn means possibly facing an Emrakul next turn. My deck has more tutors, so an ever-so-slightly better chance of hitting Opalescence in time. For the sake of this discussion, though, we'll say that it's equal. We both missed the combo turn, now do you want to stare down that Emrakul with an O-ring in your deck, or 12 more Leylines?
So, TL;DR, the toolbox version is not sacrificing the combo turn for a stronger late-game strategy, it's just tacking a late game strategy onto a shell that already supports it.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I can't agree with that analysis. I've tested more toolbox-heavy options and found them to be entirely flaccid. With Crop Rotation, Enlightened Tutor, and Idyllic Tutor you absolutely have a better shot of finding and resolving Opalescence.
My list (posted at top) gets a very fast Opalescence around 50% of the time. That's not nothing. That same list runs Noxious Revival (formerly Petrified Field in that slot) so you absolutely have potential draws if your Opalescence gets countered. You have 8 Tutors + 3 Opalescence + 4 Noxious Revival = 15 outs. That's over a quarter of the cards remaining in your deck.
There are an extra 3 Tutors in my list compared to yours (unless you count Rector + Phyrexian Tower which I would not, as it's a two-card combo). Your deck is also much, much less likely to be able to cast Opalescence on the first or second turn, and much, much less likely to be able to have it do something relevant.
36 Leyline 4 Opalescence 4 Serum Powder 4 Serra's Sanctum 4 Crop Rotation 4 Enlightened Tutor is 56 cards and has zero green sources. If that's what you're testing, no wonder you don't like it! Additionally, Leyline of Singularity has been unplayable in my testing. 32 Leylines is most definitely "where it's at".
At 18 Leylines (as in the list you posted), you can expect 2 in your opening hand, with a third around half the time. These are the most common opening hands. There's absolutely no way that's enough to support a fast combo. Have you actually playtested this or just messed around with the math? The first thing I tried for LLDW was a toolbox, and only gradually approached the streamlined list I've posted as I became convinced I needed to shape the deck in that direction for it to perform tolerably.
Some testing with the serenechaos list, just to see what it can actually do:
www.random.org/lists/
Below is serenechaos' list with their suggested changes. You can copy and paste it into the random number generator site above to examine opening hands. Randomize, then read off the first 7 cards. To mulligan, randomise and read off the first 6. To Serum Powder, just read cards 8-14. To Serum Powder and mulligan you will have to delete the cards you want to Powder away, then read the next 7 or 6 or whichever, then you can randomize and read 1 fewer.
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Gemstone Mine
Gemstone Mine
Gemstone Mine
Gemstone Mine
Horizon Canopy
Horizon Canopy
Horizon Canopy
Phyrexian Tower
Wasteland
Tree of Tales
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Anticipation
Opalescence
Opalescence
Opalescence
Opalescence
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Crop Rotation
Crop Rotation
Crop Rotation
Crop Rotation
Academy Rector
Academy Rector
Sterling Grove
Oblivion Ring
Oblivion Ring
Crucible of Worlds
Helm of Obedience
Parallax Wave
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
1st hand: 2 Leyline of Sanctity, Turn 4 Suppression Field, Turn 5 Attack for 10, Turn 6 Attack for 10.
2nd hand: Leyline of Sanctity, Leyline of the Void, Turn 2 Suppression Field, Turn 10 Suppression Field, Turn 11 Attack for 12, Turn 12 Attack for 12
3rd Hand: 2 Leyline of Vitality, Turn 2 Crop Rotation, Turn 2 Suppression Field, Turn 3 Oblivion Ring, Turn 4 Oblivion Ring, Turn 7 Attack for 16, Turn 8 Attack for 16
4th Hand: Leyline of Sanctity, Turn 2 Sterling Grove, Turn 3 Oblivion Ring+Activate Grove, Turn 4 Attack for 6, Turn 5 Attack for 6, Turn 6 Attack for 6, Turn 7 Attack for 6
5th Hand: Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Sanctity, Turn 1 Suppression Field, Turn 2 Academy Rector, Turn 3 Crop Rotation, Turn 3 Sacrifice Academy Rector to Phyrexian Tower, Turn 3 Attack for 10, Turn 4 Attack for 10
6th Hand: Leyline of Sanctity, Leyline of Vitality, Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Anticipation, Turn 1 Attack for 16, Turn 2 Attack for 16
7th Hand: Leyline of Sanctity, Leyline of Lifeforce, Turn 2 Crop Rotation, Turn 2 Suppression Field, Turn 3 Attack for 10, Turn 4 Attack for 10
8th Hand: Leyline of Lifeforce, Turn 2 Suppression Field, Turn 3 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 4 Suppression Field, Turn 5 Attack for 8, Turn 6 Attack for 8, Turn 7 Attack for 8 (fetching Tree of Tales rather than Suppression Field is less disruption but the same clock. It could be the right play if the opponent's life is a resource, such as if they are on Griselbrand or Ad Nauseam)
9th Hand: Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of Vitality, Turn 1 Serum Powder, Turn 2 cycle Horizon Canopy, Turn 2 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 3 Attack for 8, Turn 4 Attack for 8, Turn 5 Attack for 8
10th Hand: Leyline of Lifeforce, Turn 2 Suppression Field, Turn 3 Crop Rotation, Turn 4 Attack for 6, Turn 5 Attack for 6, Turn 5 Crucible of Worlds, Turn 6 Sterling Grove, Turn 6 Attack for 6, Turn 7 Attack for 8
I think these results speak for themselves.
Now let's try my list:
Again, using www.random.org/lists/
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Noxious Revival
Noxious Revival
Noxious Revival
Noxious Revival
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
Opalescence
Opalescence
Opalescence
Opalescence
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Leyline of Lightning
Leyline of Lightning
Leyline of Lightning
Leyline of Lightning
Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
1st Hand: Mulligan to Oblivion. Off to a bad start.
2nd Hand: Leyline of Lightning, Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Lifeforce, Turn 2 Idyllic Tutor, Turn 3 Attack for 12, Turn 4 Attack for 12
3rd Hand: 2 Leyline of Sanctity, Turn 5 Enlightned Tutor, Turn 6 Suppression Field, Turn 7 Serum Powder, Turn 8 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 9 Attack for 10, Turn 10 Attack for 10
4th Hand: Mulligan to Oblivion
5th Hand: Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of the Void, Turn 2 Attack for 8, Turn 3 Attack for 8, Turn 4 Attack for 8
6th Hand: Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of the Meek, Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of the Void, Turn 2 Attack for 16, Turn 3 Attack for 16
7th Hand: Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Vitality, Turn 1 Suppression Field, Turn 2 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 3 Suppression Field Turn 3 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 4 Attack for 12, Turn 5 Attack for 16
8th Hand: Leyline of Punishment, Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of Anticipation, Turn 1 Attack for 16, Turn 2 Attack for 16
9th Hand: Leyline of the Void, 2 Leyline of Vitality, Leyline of Anticipation, Turn 2 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 2 Serum Powder, Turn 3 Attack for 16, Turn 4 Attack for 16
10th Hand: Leyline of Sanctity, Leyline of the Void, Turn 1 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 2 Suppression Field, Turn 3 Idyllic Tutor, Turn 4 Suppression Field, Turn 5 Attack for 12, Turn 6 Attack for 16
Again, I will let the reader draw their own conclusions. I would encourage you to test both lists, as well as to count the number of wins and losses in your test games (rather than the magnitude of those wins/losses or how they "feel").
I will say that I found myself missing the mana from Petrified Field, so I
mightwill go back to that.Testing that out:
http://www.random.org/lists/
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Serra's Sanctum
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Serum Powder
Petrified Field
Petrified Field
Petrified Field
Petrified Field
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
Suppression Field
Opalescence
Opalescence
Opalescence
Opalescence
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Leyline of Lightning
Leyline of Lightning
Leyline of Lightning
Leyline of Lightning
Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Punishment
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of the Meek
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
Leyline of Vitality
1st Hand: Leyline of Sanctity, Leyline of Vitality, Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of Lightning, Turn 1 Idyllic Tutor, Turn 2 Attack for 16, Turn 3 Attack for 16
2nd Hand: 2 Leyline of Lightning, Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Anticipation, Turn 1 Suppression Field, Turn 2 Serum Powder, Turn 4 Attack for 18, Turn 5 Attack for 18
3rd Hand: Leyline of Vitality, Leyline of the Meek, Turn 2 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 3 Suppression Field, Turn 4 Suppression Field, Turn 5 Attack for 12, Turn 6 Attack for 12
4th Hand: Leyline of Vitality, 2 Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of Punishment, Turn 3 Idyllic Tutor, Turn 4 Attack for 16, Turn 5 Attack for 16
5th Hand: Leyline of the Meek, Leyline of Punishment, Turn 3 Serum Powder, Turn 4 Idyllic Tutor, Turn 5 Suppression Field, Turn 6 Attack for 10, Turn 7 Attack for 10
6th Hand: 2 Leyline of Punishment, Leyline of Vitality, Leyline of Lifeforce, Turn 1 Attack for 16, Turn 2 Attack for 16
7th Hand: Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of the Void, Turn 2 Attack for 8, Turn 3 Attack for 8, Turn 4 Attack for 12
8th Hand: Leyline of the Meek, Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of Lightning, Turn 1 Suppression Field, Turn 2 Idyllic Tutor, Turn 3 Attack for 14, Turn 4 Attack for 14
9th Hand: 2 Leyline of Punishment, Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Vitality, Turn 1 Suppression Field, Turn 2 Serum Powder, Turn 3 Leyline of Sanctity, Turn 5 Idyllic Tutor, Turn 6 Attack for 18, Turn 7 Attack for 18
10th Hand: 2 Leyline of Lifeforce, Leyline of Punishment, Leyline of Lightning, Turn 2 Enlightened Tutor, Turn 3 Attack for 16, Turn 4 Attack for 16
Again, I will resist the temptation to comment on these results. I would encourage the reader to try more than 10 hands with each list s/he considers. 20 I would say is a bare minimum, and 100 is about right to get a feel for how the deck will goldfish.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I'm not sure where you're getting "3 extra tutors". The list you posted had 4 E. tutor, 2 Idyllic Tutor, for a total of 6. My list runs 4 E. Tutor, 1 Sterling Grove, 3 Academy Rector for a total of 8. Yes, Rector is a tutor. No, I don't need Phyrexian Tower (although it's not hard to find with 4-5 tutors). Even my current list, which has only 2 Rectors maindeck, is up one tutor from your list, not -3. On top of which, your list didn't have Helm, which is a tutorable (though conditional) 5th Opalescence.
The deck I posted has about 69% to open with two or more Leylines, before mulligans. If we take mulligans into account, we're at an 87% to see 2+ Leylines in our first hand OR our mull to 6. What good is two Leylines, you ask? It puts us far ahead. Suppression Field, Crucible, Serum Powder, Crop Rotation, O-Ring, And Enlightened Tutor are all viable plays turn 1. Most of those plays on turn 1 allow for an easy Turn 2 Opalescence. To say nothing of the possibility of "Oops, dump hand, Opalescence" turn 1. Even with two Leylines out, Turn 2 Opalescence can be as simple as Sanctum, tap, Sanctum (or Crop Rotation into second Sanctum).
Your goldfishing thing is cute, but doesn't really mean anything unless you can post all of your mulligan choices, lines of play, and repeat about 1000 times instead of 10.
Edit: All of this, though, is moot from the original point. The point I'm trying to get across is this: if your deck has 32 Leylines in it, and the Opalescence combo pieces/tutors, and nothing else, you have no lines of play when you stumble. Your Leylines do nothing. I do not want to be in a place where I have a 25% chance to draw something that might let me recover two or three turns after I draw it. I want to know that I have options available, and a ton of ways to find those options. Both of our decks can, and have, combo'd out blazingly fast before they could do any things the difference is, when I stumbled against Merfolk in Richmond, I gained infinite life and he scooped, whereas if I'd had 32 Leylines and fewer tutors...I would've just stared at the 4-cost do-nothing's I kept drawing until he killed me. When Shown and Tell dropped a 3-mana Emrakul, I had O-ring instead of a second Leyline of Anticipation.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I absolutely do not count Academy Rector. How do you plan on getting him into the graveyard? Are you counting on your opponent not having Swords to Plowshares and attacking into him? I have 8 tutors, you have 5. 8 minus 5 is three. That seems pretty hard to debate. The IQ List had 6, but my list in the primer and in the goldfishes has 8. Did the fact that I repeatedly mentioned Noxious Revival and Petrified Field not give this away? Or did you just decide your list was better without reading any others?
Yeah, I could post every possible line of play or you could just trust that I have a clue how to play the deck. When you're goldfishing, there's only a couple lines that you have to consider. It's tough to trust another human being, I know, but I think you can do it. I will admit that your list mulligans a lot less, which is maybe what you wanted to hear, but it also produces a lot more hands that are unacceptably weak against a single Swords to Plowshares, which happens to be one of the most-played cards in the format.
You don't have more ways to find meaningful cards, and if you have more meaningful cards it's by the narrowest of margins. Maybe your deck works in your local metagame. That absolutely does not make it viable for a major tournament. To win a big tournament, you need more than "my deck can eventually draw into some value cards".
As to your actual choices: Helm of Obedience is awful (and a 2-card combo), 2 O-Ring is fine, Parallax Wave is fine but win-more if you actually run a decent number of Leylines in your Leyline deck (also it's another 2-card combo), and Crucible of Worlds is another two-card combo. It's entirely possible (read: overwhelmingly likely) for Parallax, Crucible, and Rector to all be blank draws, in which case you have decidedly less action. You do have two Oblivion Ring which are trumps in 1-2 matchups and Fog in many others. The idea that you O-Ring something and are just dandy simply does not hold water. You still need other action. Imagine that O-Ring is a full-blown Time Stretch for 2W. That's still not enough in any situation where you're way behind to start with.
Regarding recovering: You're 15% to draw something that lets you win the turn after you draw it (or virtually so), not something that let's you "recover" 2-3 turns later. It's simply false to claim that Enlightened Tutor takes 2-3 turns to cast Opalescence after the first is countered. It takes one turn, just like Idyllic Tutor. In the meantime, you can draw a blank Crucible of Worlds, a blank Parallax Wave, a probably-blank Helm of Obedience, or an Oblivion Ring to remove one threat and leave you still searching for a topdeck that WILL actually take 2-3 turns to recover. I think the edge here clearly goes to the heavier Leyline list.
Serum Powder and Crucible are 3 mana. You're unlikely to be able to play them turn 1. Serum Powder is lackluster as a turn 1 play, and can get you Wastelanded. Crucible does nothing Turn 1 except shut off Wasteland. I have Petrified Field to recover from this off a single card, where actually have fewer outs generally (against the most-played disruptive card in the format!) O-Ring ranges from "viable" to "garbage dumpster" on turn 1. Suppression Field is incredible, but my list is actually much more likely to play Suppression Field turn 1, as you're more likely to have turn 1 Serra's Sanctum with multiple Leylines. Your list is incredibly less likely to have turn 1 Opalescence. Drawing multiple Sanctum, Opalescence, and Leylines is actually an area where the non-toolbox list is fundamentally better, typically killing in 2 swings instead of 3.
You seem to have this idea that your list is able to combo out just as well. That is wrong.
Each Leyline in the opening hand is an additional mana off Serra's Sanctum without having to slow down to make land drops, and without diminishing the value of Opalescence once it resolves. This makes a heavier Leyline list fundamentally faster, fundamentally weaker against Wasteland (which is why I run 4 Petrified Field / Noxious Revival) and fundamentally more compact. It takes fewer cards to win the game once the game has actually started.
Let me try to take a different approach, since you apparently reject both theory and goldfishing as indicators of how a deck will perform.
Are you actually winning? You seem really proud of this one time that Parallax Wave did something and wasn't a dead draw versus Merfolk, but are you actually winning with regularity at your local store? What percentage of game 1's do you take? Is Leyline of Sanctity winning games by itself (ex: vs Burn)? Is Leyline of the Void winning games by itself?
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Crucible is fantastic turn 1 for enabling Canopy chaining, Wastelocking, and using multiple Sanctums for crazy mana. Powder is an amazing turn 1 play because it frequently is the 4th mana for a turn 2 Opalescence. If you don't think Powder is worth playing turn 1, you're playing the deck wrong (any version of it).
Rector is absolutely a reliable tutor. There are 5 ways to find Tower, plus Tower itself. If you have a Rector out, your opponent is going to have to swing into it. Their only other choice is to let you off them for ages. I have never, in all of my games, had trouble making Rector die. Which leaves me with 8 tutors to find Opalescence, 4 to find Helm/Crucible, and 5 to find Sanctum or a utility land. Essentially everything in the deck exists in at least 5 copies, making it extremely consistent.
Oblivion Ring: Clutch in all SnT matchups, obv. Hitting Batterskull is not a fog, it's a huge swing. Taking out a Goyf usually buys you multiple turns. Hitting a PW is huge. Take out Heritage Druid? Just crippled Elves. Exile Aether Vial against Goblins or Maverick or Merfolk? Pretty good.
Parallax Wave: occasionally a two-card combo that instawins against almost every deck. Other times, it's protection of your enchantments or mini-oblivions. Don't need Opalescence to stall them out for a few turns. Besides, if you run at least 8 tutors, you shouldn't have trouble getting Opalescence anyway...
Crucible: As mentioned several times, it does a lot more than just protect you from Wasteland, though it does that wonderfully. Horizon Canopy draws you tons of cards, Wasteland locks out opponents, multiple Sanctums generate huge amounts of mana, Gemstone Mine becomes permanent. Of you want to keep trying to downplay it's usefulness, you will only be sounding like you're in denial.
Helm: Alternate wincon. Doesn't require combat, or even damage. Usually wins in a single turn, as opposed to Leyline beats that take 2-3. And that's assuming your opponent has no blocks or removal. Yes, it's a two-card combo. If only both cards were easily tutorable and at least one of them was exceptionally strong in its own right...that would be a solid, Legacy-viable combo right there.
I am not ignoring theory or goldfishing. The fact that I have valid arguments as to why your theory is incomplete or inaccurate does not mean I am rejecting theory in general. Thank you for giving everyone an excellent example of a classic logical fallacy, though. Here's lesson in theory for you: if you can win by turn 3 50% of the time, then you're losing half your games to your deck. Of the 50% that remain, you will lose maybe half of those to your opponent having an answer. If your deck has counteranswers, meta hate, and tools for such situations, you can win more games.
Not that my personal anecdotes mean anything more than your statistically flawed goldfishes, but yes, I am winning. I typically do very well against Maverick, Pox, Delver, Elves, and obviously Burn/Storm/Dredge. I typically do decently against Stoneblade. Show and Tell is fairly rough, Oring and Parallax wave help, but a lot of the players I usually see wreck me with Blood Moon. BUG is a toss-up.
If you're having trouble understanding my theory, or grasping that my list is based on extensive testing, you can check out this thread from a while back.
http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2711231
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I like the fantasy world where you get your 1-ofs right when you need them, have never used your tutors already, your opponents never just kill you while you mess around, and never draw dead.
Actual testing shows that your list might have some weaknesses, so your only response is to demand that I perform an onerous amount of work to "prove" that it has them. You won't ever reach 100% certainty just by piling on more samples.
I encourage anyone interested in the deck to test both lists.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I am not demanding you do any sort of work to prove anything. I am merely stating that your goldfish hands are not rigorous, methodical, or numerous enough to be statistically meaningful. I am not stating this because your results upset me; I am stating it because it is truth. I said the same thing about my own personal results, which are heavily tilted in my own favor, but you seem to have skipped over that part of my post.
I do not live in any sort of fantasy world. I simply play a deck with toolbox answers and lots of tutors and engines. It is not an unusual strategy, especially in Eternal formats. I am sorry that my personal play experience does not agree with your theoretical view of what "should" happen, and that you cannot listen calmly and objectively to the theory I am trying to explain to you.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Again, I would encourage anyone interested to test both builds. I think the value of more Leylines and less two-card combos will be quickly apparent.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/