This is an oldie but a goodie, from a video posted in 2014. link
The game was fascinating and cool, and at 21:27 Sam Black despoiled it. His only "out" was tricking his opponent into agreeing that one of his creatures did not have summoning sickness, which manifestly was not the case, attacking with it, and getting the game state to a point where it could not be rewound. The judge said nothing, nor were the commentators able to make any difference at all after informing "the powers that be."
You can see the guilt on Sam Black's face after committing this scummy, dishonest deed.
I shall no longer be able to think of Sam Black as an innovative deckbuilder, but shall instead consider him a rather low sort of Magic player just a hair above the cheaters. I urge others to watch this clip and consider it when making forming their own opinions of this well known player.
Sorry, I forgot to put in the link. Or rather, I put it in, but neglected to name it, so it remained invisible. Here it is.
EDIT: I don't know how I missed this article in 2014 since I was playing seriously then, but I did. The article is indeed about the event in the video.
As to Sam Black's defense in the article, I think it's weak and insufficient. Much more plausible than his claim to be unfamiliar with his deck or honestly confused about the game state is the statement he himself offers in the article, that after exhausting all possibilities of winning legally went for the only "out" available. Why would he act in a manner so thoroughly consistent with the actual game state (all of his creatures summoning sick) and then ask his opponent if that were the case only after determining that he could not win via a single lethal Hoof?
Why are you bringing this up now, did something else happen?
I agree though, Sam Black obviously cheated. As a "pro" I can't imagine Black so conveniently forgot the definition of summoning sickness once in the whole match. I blame his opponent too, though. They both cheated, Black just said, "Hey, can I cheat?" and Hammes said, "By all means."
Starts at 8:50, with Pernicious Deed peeking from offscreen at the bottom on James's side.
James cracks Deed in response to Sam's Glimpse of Nature, killing the lone Elvish Visionary with no summoning sickness.
From this point, as the commentators periodically note, all creatures Sam summons would have summoning sickness.
Sam proceeds to combo off, but out of greed/desperation plays a third Glimpse of Nature. This gets him drawing too many cards fast. (Glimpse of Nature's card draw is mandatory)
The only good reason a player as experienced as Sam would be so greedy and/or desperate to draw so much is to make a large enough Craterhoof Behemoth.
Sam would be trying for a 27 power Craterhoof Behemoth because he knows it's his only creature that has haste.
To satisfy this win condition, part of completing the objective is bringing out as many creatures as possible (to increase Craterhoof's power). Anyone familiar with the deck knows it's his only out, the commentators comment on the fact repeatedly.
Sam's problem comes when he nearly decks out from drawing too much. At that point he would need to dump the creatures in his hand to give Craterhoof Behemoth enough power to win. The catch is casting those creatures decks him out into a loss.
He begins to realize his trap, and attempts to (perfectly legally) exploit Green Sun's Zenith to prevent himself from decking out.
However, Sam fails to account for the fact he's missing a third Green Sun's Zenith to sustain the loop.
It would seem as Sam realizes he can't sustain his loop, he begins to play very slowly and arguably sandbags. He repeatedly counts and fiddles with cards on board and in his hand.
Looks like a combination of nervousness and misdirection as he figures out what to do.
Finally, he 'emphatically' (commentator's wording) plays Craterhoof Behemoth, resolves triggers, then uses Wirewood Symbiote to untap Elvish Visionary.
Note how quickly he makes the attack after doing everything else steadily.
Also note that his hand actually trembles after he takes it away from the declared attackers.
Sam Black's defense is that his opponent confirmed the boardstate after asking if there were already creatures in play.
Youtube comment by RogueCulture says 'He tracks summoning sick creatures in G2 at 42:00. No way he didn't know in G1.'
James was either overwhelmed by the misdirection, or is unfamiliar with the strategy, or was intimidated by Sam actually making the play. "He's such a good player, he wouldn't be doing that if it wasn't right, right?"
Either way, it looks like too much respect on James Hammes's part.
Reminds me of the "No, he's good." response by the cheated opponent at the end of this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd7cd-K8ImQ
Compare the two suspicious events in these videos and they are very similar in operation. Slow, complex misdirection followed by quick play. Then a lot of looking/playing dumb.
It should be obvious that this was highly dishonest play by Sam Black, if not outright cheating.
I think Sam Black should have been given a warning in addition to a game loss on the spot. Remember just who that is in the other video.
Speaking of looking/playing dumb, does anyone find his article being titled 'Scandal!' offensively coy?
I read Sam's claim that he didn't cheat. However, you can see him working so, so hard to get enough creatures for a lethal 'Hoof. If he genuinely thought the EV didn't have sickness he would have been lethal ages before and wouldn't have put himself through so many contortions to not deck himself and get the lethal lone 'Hoof.
Someone should have stepped in, that's a state of the board thing which spectators are allowed to mention. The fact that he went through such a long arduous turn trying to get a lethal Craterhoof before going "Oh wait I have this other creature too" is so sketchy, this just seems completely not okay.
As others have said here below, you don't go through all that trouble of trying to make your lonely Behemoth lethal when you know Visionary was also live.
Just because he got away with it doesn't mean it isn't cheating. He spent twenty minutes trying to make the Craterhoof lethal for a reason, failed, then tried to sneak the game with misdirection and succeeded.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
You say that like it's some kind of necro, which it isn't.
Some of us hadn't seen or heard about this, and it's healthy to analyze. It should serve as a reminder not to have too much respect for better known players and give too much benefit of the doubt.
I think it would be nice to see a thread for games where dubious play has occurred so people can learn what to look out for.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
For no reason other than this is the first I've come across it. I had previously admired Sam Black for his work on the Zombardment deck as well as his good tournament results generally. As stated in his apology denial article, he tries to be a good, active community member and present a positive face for the game.
He's a very well known player and I was utterly shocked to see this. The news is a bit old, I'll certainly grant that. To me it is still relevant.
For no reason other than this is the first I've come across it. I had previously admired Sam Black for his work on the Zombardment deck as well as his good tournament results generally. As stated in his apology denial article, he tries to be a good, active community member and present a positive face for the game.
He's a very well known player and I was utterly shocked to see this. The news is a bit old, I'll certainly grant that. To me it is still relevant.
It comes across as only attempting to smear the guy's name when often what he does for the magic community is more important than some game where he may or may not have intended on scumming someone.
As a person who has played a lot of combo in Legacy, sometimes your brain just gets burnt out. You play six or seven rounds thinking of permutations and lines constantly, during your turn and your opponents' turns and then trying to figure out what you could have done better in between rounds and sometimes you mess up. Something comparable to what Black did, I once was 6-0 at an Open in Philly, playing Storm against Lands, I had to go through some weird permutations with bouncing Spheres EOT and one during my turn and that left my opponent with one mystery card in hand, I cast all of my rituals and went to Tutor, I probably should have gotten a slow play for how long I looked, but the match was over either way once I settled on what I wanted. I went for a Past In Flames, despite knowing that he would have had no way of interacting with Ad Nauseam, whatever that mystery card was, then he goes for a Crop Rotation and Bojuka Bogs me. I probably did similar mannerisms to Black the entire time, thought about Bojuka Bog, but played right into a Crop Rotation.
Trying to think around things like that can push other stuff out of your mind and if your opponent, like Sam Black asked, confers information with what you thought then who are you to argue? You've been thinking about a lot of other things up until that point.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
While I understand the relevance of wanting to talk about MTG history from time to time, dredging up 2 year-old coverage and drama is not exactly relevant to Legacy. If you want to make a thread analyzing complex lines of play in a past match so as to help people make such plays in the future, that's fine, but the Legacy sub isn't the place for "isn't this pro a horrible person?".
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Quote from votan »
:ER:, you suck as a hero
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The game was fascinating and cool, and at 21:27 Sam Black despoiled it. His only "out" was tricking his opponent into agreeing that one of his creatures did not have summoning sickness, which manifestly was not the case, attacking with it, and getting the game state to a point where it could not be rewound. The judge said nothing, nor were the commentators able to make any difference at all after informing "the powers that be."
You can see the guilt on Sam Black's face after committing this scummy, dishonest deed.
I shall no longer be able to think of Sam Black as an innovative deckbuilder, but shall instead consider him a rather low sort of Magic player just a hair above the cheaters. I urge others to watch this clip and consider it when making forming their own opinions of this well known player.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
EDIT: I don't know how I missed this article in 2014 since I was playing seriously then, but I did. The article is indeed about the event in the video.
As to Sam Black's defense in the article, I think it's weak and insufficient. Much more plausible than his claim to be unfamiliar with his deck or honestly confused about the game state is the statement he himself offers in the article, that after exhausting all possibilities of winning legally went for the only "out" available. Why would he act in a manner so thoroughly consistent with the actual game state (all of his creatures summoning sick) and then ask his opponent if that were the case only after determining that he could not win via a single lethal Hoof?
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
I agree though, Sam Black obviously cheated. As a "pro" I can't imagine Black so conveniently forgot the definition of summoning sickness once in the whole match. I blame his opponent too, though. They both cheated, Black just said, "Hey, can I cheat?" and Hammes said, "By all means."
Starts at 8:50, with Pernicious Deed peeking from offscreen at the bottom on James's side.
James cracks Deed in response to Sam's Glimpse of Nature, killing the lone Elvish Visionary with no summoning sickness.
From this point, as the commentators periodically note, all creatures Sam summons would have summoning sickness.
Sam proceeds to combo off, but out of greed/desperation plays a third Glimpse of Nature. This gets him drawing too many cards fast. (Glimpse of Nature's card draw is mandatory)
The only good reason a player as experienced as Sam would be so greedy and/or desperate to draw so much is to make a large enough Craterhoof Behemoth.
Sam would be trying for a 27 power Craterhoof Behemoth because he knows it's his only creature that has haste.
To satisfy this win condition, part of completing the objective is bringing out as many creatures as possible (to increase Craterhoof's power). Anyone familiar with the deck knows it's his only out, the commentators comment on the fact repeatedly.
Sam's problem comes when he nearly decks out from drawing too much. At that point he would need to dump the creatures in his hand to give Craterhoof Behemoth enough power to win. The catch is casting those creatures decks him out into a loss.
He begins to realize his trap, and attempts to (perfectly legally) exploit Green Sun's Zenith to prevent himself from decking out.
However, Sam fails to account for the fact he's missing a third Green Sun's Zenith to sustain the loop.
It would seem as Sam realizes he can't sustain his loop, he begins to play very slowly and arguably sandbags. He repeatedly counts and fiddles with cards on board and in his hand.
Looks like a combination of nervousness and misdirection as he figures out what to do.
Finally, he 'emphatically' (commentator's wording) plays Craterhoof Behemoth, resolves triggers, then uses Wirewood Symbiote to untap Elvish Visionary.
Note how quickly he makes the attack after doing everything else steadily.
Also note that his hand actually trembles after he takes it away from the declared attackers.
Sam Black's defense is that his opponent confirmed the boardstate after asking if there were already creatures in play.
Youtube comment by RogueCulture says 'He tracks summoning sick creatures in G2 at 42:00. No way he didn't know in G1.'
James was either overwhelmed by the misdirection, or is unfamiliar with the strategy, or was intimidated by Sam actually making the play. "He's such a good player, he wouldn't be doing that if it wasn't right, right?"
Either way, it looks like too much respect on James Hammes's part.
Reminds me of the "No, he's good." response by the cheated opponent at the end of this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd7cd-K8ImQ
Compare the two suspicious events in these videos and they are very similar in operation. Slow, complex misdirection followed by quick play. Then a lot of looking/playing dumb.
It should be obvious that this was highly dishonest play by Sam Black, if not outright cheating.
I think Sam Black should have been given a warning in addition to a game loss on the spot. Remember just who that is in the other video.
Speaking of looking/playing dumb, does anyone find his article being titled 'Scandal!' offensively coy?
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
Some of us hadn't seen or heard about this, and it's healthy to analyze. It should serve as a reminder not to have too much respect for better known players and give too much benefit of the doubt.
I think it would be nice to see a thread for games where dubious play has occurred so people can learn what to look out for.
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
For no reason other than this is the first I've come across it. I had previously admired Sam Black for his work on the Zombardment deck as well as his good tournament results generally. As stated in his
apologydenial article, he tries to be a good, active community member and present a positive face for the game.He's a very well known player and I was utterly shocked to see this. The news is a bit old, I'll certainly grant that. To me it is still relevant.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
As a person who has played a lot of combo in Legacy, sometimes your brain just gets burnt out. You play six or seven rounds thinking of permutations and lines constantly, during your turn and your opponents' turns and then trying to figure out what you could have done better in between rounds and sometimes you mess up. Something comparable to what Black did, I once was 6-0 at an Open in Philly, playing Storm against Lands, I had to go through some weird permutations with bouncing Spheres EOT and one during my turn and that left my opponent with one mystery card in hand, I cast all of my rituals and went to Tutor, I probably should have gotten a slow play for how long I looked, but the match was over either way once I settled on what I wanted. I went for a Past In Flames, despite knowing that he would have had no way of interacting with Ad Nauseam, whatever that mystery card was, then he goes for a Crop Rotation and Bojuka Bogs me. I probably did similar mannerisms to Black the entire time, thought about Bojuka Bog, but played right into a Crop Rotation.
Trying to think around things like that can push other stuff out of your mind and if your opponent, like Sam Black asked, confers information with what you thought then who are you to argue? You've been thinking about a lot of other things up until that point.
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