I'm dead serious. The Rakdos commons and uncommons are just a step above every other option, and it takes a wildly powerful gameplan in order to stop the early barrage of 2- and 3-cmc unleash bodies from dominating the board from start to finish. The removal is specifically built to punish attempts to build a control archetype in any color (stab wound and launch party laugh at defenders, bombs, and aura-based removal), and the unleash mechanic simply outclasses detain and 75% of the overload cards. The sheer volume of shenanigans available with Daggerdrome Imp make racing rakdos next to impossible. Don't even get me started on the guildmage...
I'm not speaking as a bitter player, I'm speaking as a player that simply sees no incentive to even consider other draft strategies. Only selesnya even comes close, and most of the key cards that stop rakdos are at the uncommon rarity or higher. Has anyone even found a surefire way to stop the rakdos strategy?
Uh, because forcing it doesn't actually mean that you automatically get to make a good deck with those cards? It's a powerful color combination, but it's not deep enough to let you just ignore signals and compete with 2-3 other people trying to make the same deck.
I'm dead serious. The Rakdos commons and uncommons are just a step above every other option, and it takes a wildly powerful gameplan in order to stop the early barrage of 2- and 3-cmc unleash bodies from dominating the board from start to finish.
Here's a reason. Because everyone keeps doing that and it dries up fast and you end up with a messed up final pull.
Forcing a good arch-type works well as long as someone else isn't also forcing it.
I played a draft on MTGO last night and pulled what I thought was a nice R/G/b deck but was sorely out matched when every opponent I faced also was running pure rakdos. 4 decks in one 8man pod was a bit ridiculous
I'm not gonna try to convince you not to force Rakdos because I agree with you.
Generally, unless I open a bomb in another color, I'll start a draft by trying to force Rakdos. And if it doesn't work, I'll end up in one of the guilds that shares a color. I don't particularly think that the set is unbalanced—Rakdos is powerful when it works, but that doesn't mean the other guilds are less appealing. The aggressiveness of Rakdos really fits my playstyle and what I want to do, though.
Rakdos has nut draws, but they don't happen every game. Playing lots of x/4 durdles (there are many) screws rakdos over. If you can get to the lategame, they just deflate completely. You should never pick your final guild from the get go.
Pay attention to the meta at the table where you're sitting. I hear GW has 3/3's for two mana.
Rakdos is a pretty good place to be in a draft right now, it's probably the best guild to be in precisely because it's powerful and you can somehow still be like... one of two players at the table interested in red aggressive cards.
But if people start forcing it, that's when it's time to jump ship.
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I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
I played a golgari deck splashing red for auger spree and lobber crew today that wanted to go long. I had 3 trestle trolls, 2 jailbreaker ogres and dreg mangler. I also had 2 slitherheads which are awesome for early blocking. Second round I stomped a rakdos deck because 2 of my trolls came in and my opponent put counters on his first 3 creatures thinking that he could race me. He couldn't. The golgari long game runs circles around any rakdos deck that doesn't over stock on removal.
Of course, the golgari deck needs certain cards to win, but that can be said about every guild strategy.
So far, of the 10-12ish RtR limited events I've played in, the azorius flyer strategy seems to the one to beat and it's the one that has given me the most grief...in fact, I've never beat it.
Rakdos can be very effective if you get a good aggro pool, but the problem there is "if".
If you don't achieve critical mass of 2/3 drops (because other people are also drafting the guild, for example) combined with cheap, early removal, you can fall very short. There are a lot of easily accessible 4 butt creatures (e.g. Doorkeeper, Lobber Crew) that will quickly shut down a diluted aggro plan. Unless your pool is good, you are easy to shut down. You get a good pool through the guild being at least reasonably open.
I honestly don't feel that forcing a guild is ever the best way to draft. If the common consensus is that Rakdos is the best guild, and 4-5 people try to force it, none of those decks are likely to do well.
Rakdos is an all-in deck. Either you get it or you don't. More often the cards are going to get cut and you'll be left with a nothing pile of cards that can't even win a game. Forcing an archetype is only viable if A)It's obscure and less played. B)Deep enough that you can still be ok if you're getting cut. Rakdos isn't either of those things. It's hard to beat a rakdos that's drafted the nuts. But it's very easy to beat a rakdos deck that hasn't. But that also goes for Selesnya or Golgari. Ignoring signals is a stupid thing to do in any draft environment IMO.
If you're forcing Rakdos and winning then you're doing the right thing, exploiting bad strategy on the part of the players you're drafting with.
I assume you're not forcing Rakdos and losing, since then you'd have noticed a problem... so the other possibility is that this is a theoretical observation and you haven't actually tried it.
I haven't had a huge amount of trouble beating Rakdos decks so far. Sure, I've lost to a few, but not significantly more often than other decks. Indeed, the deck I'm most scared of is the non-Proliferate Selesnya aggro deck. The main trick against Rakdos is just not to skimp on early drops and X/4s when drafting. Drudge Beetle over Golgari Longlegs!
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I don't know what Selesnya deck you faced with Rakdos, but selesnya/token/populate has many answer to Rakdos at common: druid's deliverance and rootborn defense will blow you out. I guess it depends if you can keep all their tokens off the field. There is the 3/4 rhino with hexproof, too, that will give you trouble.
I am a big fan of 'forcing' Rakdos but really just taking good dudes (Lobber Crew, Splatter Thug are my favorites) and removal and reading the table and shuffling myself into Rakdos, Grixis or Rakdos splash green lightly.
That said I have had the most success with pure Rakdos and Bant.
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I write about cube and run cube drafts on magic online.
I don't try to force Rakdos, but in packs with a bad rare I usually end up taking a good B, R, or BR card. I would almost always take a Rix Maadi Guildmage or Stab Wound over a bad rare and good uncommons. I also take Lobber Crew early, but I'm not sure if I would 1st pick it unless the pack is really weak. If Rakdos isn't open then I can still go Jund or Grixis most of the time. I haven't had to abandon my early Rakdos cards for Azorius or Selesnya yet, but that will probably happen eventually.
When I do play Rakdos I tend to go for the Stab Wound/Lobber Crew deck, not Rakdos aggro.
I'm not gonna try to convince you not to force Rakdos. You should always force Rakdos, even bad Rakdos decks are the nuts. Just draft Rakdos every time.
That should convince you not to force rakdos. If it didn't see forum rtr draft.
"I have no idea what it's like not to be a straight white male, and the experiences of others are irrelevant." -Conservative Motto
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
Forcing anything is only ever a good idea if that thing is underdrafted. Its absolute power is much less relevant than the ratio between its absolute power and the extent to which other people are pursuing it. (Where "pursuing it" means not just forcing it, but also things like just kind of leaning towards it or tending to go for it.) If Rakdos is underdrafted where you play, then sure, forcing it makes sense. This is especially true for something as all-in as Rakdos aggro; the deck gets worse much faster than most the more people taking cards from it.
I personally think that selesnya is the strongest strategy for rtr draft. Rakdos is very strong when you get all the pieces but the same can be said for any draft strategy. Also, if you are getting all the pieces then you are not "forcing" it but making the right choice.
Rakdos can be outraced by azorius or izzet if you play your cards well. Populate maverick can outrace rakdos. I dont see the fuzz...
aHAHAHAHAHAH
Seriously though, rakdos is harder than people think to cut. You guys talk about the possibility of getting a diluted pool as if gore-house and splatter thug werent commons. There's also dead reveler and grim roustabout and daggerdrome imp, at common.
Call of the Conclave is uncommon, so saying selesnya just stomps rakdos strats is like the idiots in ZEN saying you can stop landfall decks just by drafting vampire nighthawks. Theoretically it's true, but good luck reliably having access to such things. The biggest power gap between Rakdos and other guilds is at the common level. To put it bluntly, a ton of the non-rakdos commons suck compared to the unleash commons. The best defense is a strong offense, and there's rarely a downside to simply flooding the board with unleashed dudes, simply because the threat of the backswing lets you dictate combat.
Arguing that x/4s beat rakdos just tells me that you guys haven't actually played against a typical rakdos deck. Deviant Glee is the fastest way to make sure your durdle defenders remain worthless, and cards like stab wound keep the durdle decks on a clock even on a stalled board.
So far, of the 10-12ish RtR limited events I've played in, the azorius flyer strategy seems to the one to beat and it's the one that has given me the most grief...in fact, I've never beat it.
Can you give me a brief overview of the deck? I tried Azorius and I failed hard. If you have thoughts, or a link to a writeup on drafting it, I'd love the help.
Seriously though, rakdos is harder than people think to cut. You guys talk about the possibility of getting a diluted pool as if gore-house and splatter thug werent commons. There's also dead reveler and grim roustabout and daggerdrome imp, at common.
Call of the Conclave is uncommon, so saying selesnya just stomps rakdos strats is like the idiots in ZEN saying you can stop landfall decks just by drafting vampire nighthawks. Theoretically it's true, but good luck reliably having access to such things. The biggest power gap between Rakdos and other guilds is at the common level. To put it bluntly, a ton of the non-rakdos commons suck compared to the unleash commons. The best defense is a strong offense, and there's rarely a downside to simply flooding the board with unleashed dudes, simply because the threat of the backswing lets you dictate combat.
Arguing that x/4s beat rakdos just tells me that you guys haven't actually played against a typical rakdos deck. Deviant Glee is the fastest way to make sure your durdle defenders remain worthless, and cards like stab wound keep the durdle decks on a clock even on a stalled board.
Deviant glee? I guess...
I just told you that a very strong rakdos deck fell flat against 3 defenders and a 3/3 because he did the exact strategy you're talking about of casting out his unleash guys and then they just sat. He used at least 3 solid removal spells on my non-defenders because he couldn't block anything and all I had to do was keep one non-defender on the board. If you can take the game past turn 6-7 then you can beat the rakdos game. Taking it out that long isn't too terrible if you're in golgari or izzet and get the right cards.
Can you give me a brief overview of the deck? I tried Azorius and I failed hard. If you have thoughts, or a link to a writeup on drafting it, I'd love the help.
One was more bant than azorius, but it ran tons of flyers including concordia pegasus, sunspire griffin, and tower drake. It splashed green for pump spells and a couple of populate cards which wrecked me.
The other build is UW/r or UW/b splashing for removal. Again, stock up on flyers. Vassal Soul, and the flyers from the other deck, but this deck runs detain guys like lyev skyknight and azorius arrester and the super annoying Azorius Justiciar. The one that whooped me today had civic saber in it which became really annoying when he put it on the vassal soul and proceeded to smash face.
The basic strategy is the same with most low cost UW flyers, drop them early and beat them in the skies before their bigger ground creatures can get it done.
The only decks I really worry about when I have a decent-to-good Izzet deck are good Azorious or Bant decks. Rakdos is particularly easy when I'm running the more tempo-based Izzet deck with the red unleash guys, Electromancers, and Traitorous Instincts of my own. I can't count the number of Deviant Glees I've swiped with Voidwielder on both hands, and if I ever get to hold up Essence Backlash the game is pretty much over.
That said, keep doing what works for you, I guess? But maybe tone down how highly you think of the archetype/yourself?
I just 4-0'd fnm drafting rakdos. I dont think my deck was particularly strong but I got pretty lucky seeing my good cards almost every game. Probably 50% of my games I had t2 ash zealot and I saw my singletons of Hellhole Flailer and Dark Revenant almost every game too.
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"No one may threaten or commit violence ('aggress') against another man's person or property. Violence may be employed only against the man who commits such violence; that is, only defensively against the aggressive violence of another. In short, no violence may be employed against a nonaggressor. Here is the fundamental rule from which can be deduced the entire corpus of libertarian theory." - Murray Rothbard, Cited from "War, Peace, and the State"
Arguing that x/4s beat rakdos just tells me that you guys haven't actually played against a typical rakdos deck. Deviant Glee is the fastest way to make sure your durdle defenders remain worthless, and cards like stab wound keep the durdle decks on a clock even on a stalled board.
Stab Would is as effective against Rakdos as it is for Rakdos. A Stab Wounded Dead Reveler cannot shake off the wound and if the opponent has a wall can't even attack for damage with it. However it is a great candidate for Launch Party.
I agree with the O.P. Rakdos is too good. On the play the opponent is virtually guaranteed to be backpedalling the whole time.
In drafting Ravnica, the first thing I look for is removal, generally choosing black first due to overlapping in both Rakdos and Golgari. The card that Rakdos really needs to pull through is Splatter Thug. The 2-drops aren't terrible, but unleashing it allows you to plow through Selesnya 3/3's and will allow you to go First Strike--> Auger Spree to anything larger.
The problem is several times, I have had to complete with for those cards with people both trying to force Rakdos and people that simply take them in Izzet. They are just as good unleashed or not in a defensive, aerial deck. And, without them, Rakdos is too easilly held in check by larger ceatures, especially 1-for-1 with an ever populating Selesnya.
The deck I have had the most consistent deck I have been able to make is Golgari/Selenesia hybrid that takes both black and white removal, as many 3/3 or 2/2 vigilance token makers for turns 1-3 as I can (the white enchant land is actually decent for this), and tons of plays for turns 4-6. I have yet to use Tressel Troll, but just throwing out 3/3's and mana accel until the big play closes things is solid. The 6-cost exile-proliferate has won me too many games alone.
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I'm not speaking as a bitter player, I'm speaking as a player that simply sees no incentive to even consider other draft strategies. Only selesnya even comes close, and most of the key cards that stop rakdos are at the uncommon rarity or higher. Has anyone even found a surefire way to stop the rakdos strategy?
Here's a reason. Because everyone keeps doing that and it dries up fast and you end up with a messed up final pull.
Forcing a good arch-type works well as long as someone else isn't also forcing it.
I played a draft on MTGO last night and pulled what I thought was a nice R/G/b deck but was sorely out matched when every opponent I faced also was running pure rakdos. 4 decks in one 8man pod was a bit ridiculous
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Generally, unless I open a bomb in another color, I'll start a draft by trying to force Rakdos. And if it doesn't work, I'll end up in one of the guilds that shares a color. I don't particularly think that the set is unbalanced—Rakdos is powerful when it works, but that doesn't mean the other guilds are less appealing. The aggressiveness of Rakdos really fits my playstyle and what I want to do, though.
Rakdos has nut draws, but they don't happen every game. Playing lots of x/4 durdles (there are many) screws rakdos over. If you can get to the lategame, they just deflate completely. You should never pick your final guild from the get go.
Rakdos is a pretty good place to be in a draft right now, it's probably the best guild to be in precisely because it's powerful and you can somehow still be like... one of two players at the table interested in red aggressive cards.
But if people start forcing it, that's when it's time to jump ship.
I played a golgari deck splashing red for auger spree and lobber crew today that wanted to go long. I had 3 trestle trolls, 2 jailbreaker ogres and dreg mangler. I also had 2 slitherheads which are awesome for early blocking. Second round I stomped a rakdos deck because 2 of my trolls came in and my opponent put counters on his first 3 creatures thinking that he could race me. He couldn't. The golgari long game runs circles around any rakdos deck that doesn't over stock on removal.
Of course, the golgari deck needs certain cards to win, but that can be said about every guild strategy.
So far, of the 10-12ish RtR limited events I've played in, the azorius flyer strategy seems to the one to beat and it's the one that has given me the most grief...in fact, I've never beat it.
If you don't achieve critical mass of 2/3 drops (because other people are also drafting the guild, for example) combined with cheap, early removal, you can fall very short. There are a lot of easily accessible 4 butt creatures (e.g. Doorkeeper, Lobber Crew) that will quickly shut down a diluted aggro plan. Unless your pool is good, you are easy to shut down. You get a good pool through the guild being at least reasonably open.
I honestly don't feel that forcing a guild is ever the best way to draft. If the common consensus is that Rakdos is the best guild, and 4-5 people try to force it, none of those decks are likely to do well.
If you're forcing Rakdos and winning then you're doing the right thing, exploiting bad strategy on the part of the players you're drafting with.
I assume you're not forcing Rakdos and losing, since then you'd have noticed a problem... so the other possibility is that this is a theoretical observation and you haven't actually tried it.
I haven't had a huge amount of trouble beating Rakdos decks so far. Sure, I've lost to a few, but not significantly more often than other decks. Indeed, the deck I'm most scared of is the non-Proliferate Selesnya aggro deck. The main trick against Rakdos is just not to skimp on early drops and X/4s when drafting. Drudge Beetle over Golgari Longlegs!
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
That said I have had the most success with pure Rakdos and Bant.
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When I do play Rakdos I tend to go for the Stab Wound/Lobber Crew deck, not Rakdos aggro.
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Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Calling someone a Commie is flaming and must be stopped, but turning the word Conservative into a loaded pejorative and using it over and over again is perfectly acceptable.
aHAHAHAHAHAH
Seriously though, rakdos is harder than people think to cut. You guys talk about the possibility of getting a diluted pool as if gore-house and splatter thug werent commons. There's also dead reveler and grim roustabout and daggerdrome imp, at common.
Call of the Conclave is uncommon, so saying selesnya just stomps rakdos strats is like the idiots in ZEN saying you can stop landfall decks just by drafting vampire nighthawks. Theoretically it's true, but good luck reliably having access to such things. The biggest power gap between Rakdos and other guilds is at the common level. To put it bluntly, a ton of the non-rakdos commons suck compared to the unleash commons. The best defense is a strong offense, and there's rarely a downside to simply flooding the board with unleashed dudes, simply because the threat of the backswing lets you dictate combat.
Arguing that x/4s beat rakdos just tells me that you guys haven't actually played against a typical rakdos deck. Deviant Glee is the fastest way to make sure your durdle defenders remain worthless, and cards like stab wound keep the durdle decks on a clock even on a stalled board.
Can you give me a brief overview of the deck? I tried Azorius and I failed hard. If you have thoughts, or a link to a writeup on drafting it, I'd love the help.
Deviant glee? I guess...
I just told you that a very strong rakdos deck fell flat against 3 defenders and a 3/3 because he did the exact strategy you're talking about of casting out his unleash guys and then they just sat. He used at least 3 solid removal spells on my non-defenders because he couldn't block anything and all I had to do was keep one non-defender on the board. If you can take the game past turn 6-7 then you can beat the rakdos game. Taking it out that long isn't too terrible if you're in golgari or izzet and get the right cards.
One was more bant than azorius, but it ran tons of flyers including concordia pegasus, sunspire griffin, and tower drake. It splashed green for pump spells and a couple of populate cards which wrecked me.
The other build is UW/r or UW/b splashing for removal. Again, stock up on flyers. Vassal Soul, and the flyers from the other deck, but this deck runs detain guys like lyev skyknight and azorius arrester and the super annoying Azorius Justiciar. The one that whooped me today had civic saber in it which became really annoying when he put it on the vassal soul and proceeded to smash face.
The basic strategy is the same with most low cost UW flyers, drop them early and beat them in the skies before their bigger ground creatures can get it done.
That said, keep doing what works for you, I guess? But maybe tone down how highly you think of the archetype/yourself?
Stab Would is as effective against Rakdos as it is for Rakdos. A Stab Wounded Dead Reveler cannot shake off the wound and if the opponent has a wall can't even attack for damage with it. However it is a great candidate for Launch Party.
I agree with the O.P. Rakdos is too good. On the play the opponent is virtually guaranteed to be backpedalling the whole time.
The problem is several times, I have had to complete with for those cards with people both trying to force Rakdos and people that simply take them in Izzet. They are just as good unleashed or not in a defensive, aerial deck. And, without them, Rakdos is too easilly held in check by larger ceatures, especially 1-for-1 with an ever populating Selesnya.
The deck I have had the most consistent deck I have been able to make is Golgari/Selenesia hybrid that takes both black and white removal, as many 3/3 or 2/2 vigilance token makers for turns 1-3 as I can (the white enchant land is actually decent for this), and tons of plays for turns 4-6. I have yet to use Tressel Troll, but just throwing out 3/3's and mana accel until the big play closes things is solid. The 6-cost exile-proliferate has won me too many games alone.