Alrighty then, Earlier this week I was wondering what in the lord's name should I play for the block constructed PTQ-Berlin. I was so stumped i was like "Well there's Faeries, but I've never liked that deck anyways, and then their is that Quick N Toast Deck... eh, too Janky. Oh! I could play 5 Color Elementals!" So eventually thats what I decided on. A lot of play testing proceeded, however, my friend gave me the hint that Rage Forger seemed pretty good in my deck since Flamekin HarbingerSmoke BraiderSunflare Shaman and Incandescent Soulstoke were ALL shamans.
I added Rage Forger to the deck and began more play testing. I then saw this one deck that had a shamanistic mono-red concept, however the deck was built WAYYY before Shadowmoor block came out. Fortunately, the deck is now really broken and stupid.
So broken, Stupid, and consistent that is like a child, birthed from the ideals of Red Deck Wins. It's mono-red to boot!
Soo, You generally want to curve out as much as you can, and then drop rage forger and swing for crazy damage.
T1: Flamekin Harbinger (Tutor for either your 2-drop or the Rage Forger)
T2: Shusher or Soulbright Flamekin
T3: Rage Forger Swing for 7!
It generally doesn't matter what you hit after that, the deck operates just like RDW so it chews through Faeries, and EVEN MORE NOW with main decked Vexing Shushers.
It stomps kithkin because all you have to do is burn their 1-drop, the Giant that gives 3 1/1 tokens, and their target for mirrorweave, which counters the spell.
Seeing that that is most of the field it just dominates. All the other decks like elves and doran just can't keep up with it.
That 5 Color Elementals get stomped because you just Tarfire the smokebraider and they don't do anything but evoke a shriek maw or mulldrifter, then die.
I don't think there will be a mirror match-up since no one apparently wants to play burn with all this good burn ( Javelin, Shard Volley, Lash Out) and even Tarfire is just a shock with no Tarmogoyfs around.
Personally I think that if your gonna play Shamans, it should be Gwb. Just because Doran is an absolute powerhouse. Also, combining it with Wolf-Skull Shaman, Leaf-Crowned Elder, Nameless Inversion, Crib Swap, and various others makes the deck really bad for other tribal decks. Since that's what the Block format is all about right now.
Which reminds me, how do you win against Faeries and Kithkin? They are the 2 decks that you need to beat this GP season.
Which reminds me, how do you win against Faeries and Kithkin? They are the 2 decks that you need to beat this GP season.
Dude, I just said at the end of the article how to beat Kithkin, and Faeries have ALWAYS died to RDW, and this is pretty much RDW, just throw a lot of burn at the end of their turn and swing with a bunch of man-lands, they just scoop. However, seeing that Mutavault is the only man-land in the environment, it will be a little tough, so we should only win about 75% of the time instead of 93% of the time.
Dude, I just said at the end of the article how to beat Kithkin, and Faeries have ALWAYS died to RDW, and this is pretty much RDW, just throw a lot of burn at the end of their turn and swing with a bunch of man-lands, they just scoop. However, seeing that Mutavault is the only man-land in the environment, it will be a little tough, so we should only win about 75% of the time instead of 93% of the time.
Well, I think that Cryptic Command says othwise. When you go to swing for the win they tap you down and then they win on their next turn. Happens all the time.
Also, I was wondering where you tested this out against Faeries and Kithkin? Was it at a local tourney? MWS? And, I think that with all those RED burn spells, Burreton Forgetender rapes this deck.
What is that 4 Cards against our... 14? Very very rough x.x you have yet to play the deck dude. Burrenton Forge-Tender is also the reason why I have Everlasting Torment in the side and so what if they O-ring it, by then I could have firespouted, mission accomplished. Ha, Faeries, tell me a Faerie deck that wins on turn 5. I play test with a group of friends I have, and it wrecks TYPE 2 Faeries. They go Turn one visions, turn 2 Bitterblossom and STILL Lose.
I just modified the last 4 sideboard slots. 4x Fulminator Mage wrecks Faeries even more, and guess what! He's a Shaman. (Tutorable with Harbinger, and gets pumped by both of the lords.)
What is that 1 Card against our... 14? Very very rough x.x you have yet to play the deck dude. Burrenton Forge-Tender is also the reason why I have Everlasting Torment in the side and so what if they O-ring it, by then I could have firespouted, mission accomplished.
Well, that would be true, except that Everlasting Torment does nothing to a card that has PROTECTION FROM A COLOR. Protection does NOT work the same way as PREVENTION.
Ha, Faeries, tell me a Faerie deck that wins on turn 5. I play test with a group of friends I have, and it wrecks TYPE 2 Faeries. They go Turn one visions, turn 2 Bitterblossom and STILL Lose.
I just modified the last 4 sideboard slots. 4x Fulminator Mage wrecks Faeries even more, and guess what! He's a Shaman. (Tutorable with Harbinger, and gets pumped by both of the lords.)
No Faeries deck can win that fast, but it can control your play with counterspells like Spellstutter Sprite, which will counter your TURN 3 Fulminator Mage.
502.7e Any damage that would be dealt by sources that have the stated quality to a permanent or player that has protection is prevented.
THE LAST WORD. Can'ts Go before Cans
The damage can't be prevented, However all the other rules about protection still apply, like I can't block it with my red creatures or target it with red spells. The trick is being able to FireSpout and unload my hand when they run out of heat.
D= DAMAGE:
Damage from a source of the specified color, spell, casting cost, etc. is NOT prevented. The source CANNOT legally deal the damage, because of the specified protection.
E= ENCHANTMENT:
Any enchantment, creature enchanted with, etc. CANNOT legally target the permanent with protection. Meaning: CANNOT be enchanted by, Blocked by, or Damaged by an enchantment or enchanted permanent of the protected color.
Bt= BEING TARGETTED:
Spells or abilities of the protected color or type CANNOT legally target the permanent with protection of the specified type. (i.e. Protection from Instants, Sorceries, Color, etc.)
The damage is NOT prevented in the way you are thinking.
lol dude Where did you get that from? I already knew all that but that is from the official rules page itself.
The damage is PREVENTED it can still legally deal damage to it , however that damage is reduced to 0 BECAUSE THE DAMAGE IS PREVENTED, but if damage can't be prevented then the damage is whatever the opposing creatures power is.
Lol I'm gonna go post it in the rules section of the forums to get a judge to confirm this.
It stomps kithkin because all you have to do is burn their 1-drop, the Giant that gives 3 1/1 tokens, and their target for mirrorweave, which counters the spell.
Don't the Kithkin decks maindeck Burrenton Forge-Tender? If not, they surely sideboard it.
It stomps kithkin because all you have to do is burn their 1-drop, the Giant that gives 3 1/1 tokens, and their target for mirrorweave, which counters the spell.
Don't the Kithkin decks maindeck Burrenton Forge-Tender? If not, they surely sideboard it.
[quote=Bake21;/comments/3658830]The damage is PREVENTED it can still legally deal damage to it , however that damage is reduced to 0 BECAUSE THE DAMAGE IS PREVENTED, but if damage can't be prevented then the damage is whatever the opposing creatures power is.quote]
Well, you are HALF right. When damage is reduced to 0 it is prevented. But, in the case of protection, Damage isn't even dealt. Not even 0 Damage.
Eh, level 2 and 3 judges work, right?
You can't prove that your right either because I hauled mine from a rule book and you didn't.
Anyways if you have nothing helpful to contribute to the deck then go away.
Eh, level 2 and 3 judges work, right?
You can't prove that your right either because I hauled mine from a rule book and you didn't.
Anyways if you have nothing helpful to contribute to the deck then go away.
ok... Well, I was only trying to help out. If you can't take the critizism, then don't ask for the help.
But, I did call the 800 number, you'll be happy to hear that we were both right. They said that the damage is reduced to 0 which is not preventing the damage. Because, if the damage was prevented then there wouldn't be any at all. And since 0 damage is still taking damage (in a way), it's not prevented just reduced. They equated it to the example I made about the casting cost. A card with a casting cost of 0 still has a casting cost, and a card with NO casting cost doesn't have one.
Well, it still servers the purpose that I want it to , not preventing the damage to the rest of their creatures from the inevitable Firespout.
A prot red 1/1 is nothing to worry about. Since we do haul damage BEFORE they get a chance to block with Rage Forger.
Multiple Rage Forgers allow the ability to stack so they start taking 4-8 damage every time I just declare attackers. Tarm's Idea about the Heat Shimmer makes the deck stupid too. The only match-up this deck might have a problem with is Kithkin, post-side it's not as rough though.
The RDW version of the deck dominates faeries, however the more mid-range green version is more resilient against Rock and Kithkin. The deck dominates the 5 color elementals yet I haven't play tested against the Ten Commandments deck or R/G beats.
Did anyone else see the love this got from eventide?
Stigma Lasher RR
Creature - Elemental Shaman
Wither
Whenever Stigma Lasher deals damage to a player, that player can't gain life for the rest of the game.
2/2
Can someone cite something in the official rules that say protection = damage prevention? It's been my understanding that protection means "can't be dealt damage by [color] sources" and NOT "prevent all damage to this creature from [color] sources".
or we can just go to the gatherer and look at official rulings:
5/1/2008 Spells and abilities that would normally cause a player to gain life still resolve, but the life-gain part simply has no effect.
5/1/2008 If a cost includes life gain (like Invigorate's alternative cost does), that cost can't be paid.
5/1/2008 Effects that would replace gaining life with some other effect won't be able to do anything because it's impossible for players to gain life.
5/1/2008 Effects that replace an event with gaining life (like Words of Worship's effect does) will end up replacing the event with nothing.
5/1/2008 If an effect says to set your life total to a certain number, and that number is higher than your current life total, that effect will normally cause you to gain life equal to the difference. With Everlasting Torment in play, that part of the effect won't do anything. (If the number is lower than your current life total, the effect will work as normal.)
5/1/2008 The "damage can't be prevented" statement overrides all forms of preventing damage, including protection abilities. Damage prevention spells and abilities can still be played; they just don't do anything.
5/1/2008 Spells and abilities that replace or redirect damage aren't affected by Everlasting Torment's second ability. They'll work as normal.
I added Rage Forger to the deck and began more play testing. I then saw this one deck that had a shamanistic mono-red concept, however the deck was built WAYYY before Shadowmoor block came out. Fortunately, the deck is now really broken and stupid.
So broken, Stupid, and consistent that is like a child, birthed from the ideals of Red Deck Wins. It's mono-red to boot!
4x Flamekin Harbinger
4x Vexing Shusher
4x Soulbright Flamekin
4x Incandescent Soulstoke
4x Rage Forger
4x Flame Javelin
4x Lash Out
2x Shard Volley
4x Tarfire
4x Heat Shimmer
22x Mountians
4x SpiteBellows (Doran)
4x Fire Spout
3x Everlasting Torment
4x Fulminator Mage
T1: Flamekin Harbinger (Tutor for either your 2-drop or the Rage Forger)
T2: Shusher or Soulbright Flamekin
T3: Rage Forger Swing for 7!
It generally doesn't matter what you hit after that, the deck operates just like RDW so it chews through Faeries, and EVEN MORE NOW with main decked Vexing Shushers.
It stomps kithkin because all you have to do is burn their 1-drop, the Giant that gives 3 1/1 tokens, and their target for mirrorweave, which counters the spell.
Seeing that that is most of the field it just dominates. All the other decks like elves and doran just can't keep up with it.
That 5 Color Elementals get stomped because you just Tarfire the smokebraider and they don't do anything but evoke a shriek maw or mulldrifter, then die.
I don't think there will be a mirror match-up since no one apparently wants to play burn with all this good burn ( Javelin, Shard Volley, Lash Out) and even Tarfire is just a shock with no Tarmogoyfs around.
techoverrated.Ya that seems kind of stupid... I guess it could also work on an Incandescent Soulstoke or another Harbinger to pull up more rage forgers.
-2 Caterwauling Boggart
-2 Changeling Berserker
+4 Heat Shimmer
Which reminds me, how do you win against Faeries and Kithkin? They are the 2 decks that you need to beat this GP season.
:symu::symw:-Millfolk (14-6)
:symr::symu::symb::symg::symw:-Elementals (25-3)
T2: :symg::symb:-Elves (45-15)
T1.X: :symu::symb::symg::symw::symr:-Dredge (40-1)
Vintage/Legacy: NEVER!! (0-0)
T4: Mono :symu:/Artifact-Gleemax Control (36-0)
2HG Constructed: :symu::symb:-Control (15-5)
Dude, I just said at the end of the article how to beat Kithkin, and Faeries have ALWAYS died to RDW, and this is pretty much RDW, just throw a lot of burn at the end of their turn and swing with a bunch of man-lands, they just scoop. However, seeing that Mutavault is the only man-land in the environment, it will be a little tough, so we should only win about 75% of the time instead of 93% of the time.
Well, I think that Cryptic Command says othwise. When you go to swing for the win they tap you down and then they win on their next turn. Happens all the time.
Also, I was wondering where you tested this out against Faeries and Kithkin? Was it at a local tourney? MWS? And, I think that with all those RED burn spells, Burreton Forgetender rapes this deck.
:symu::symw:-Millfolk (14-6)
:symr::symu::symb::symg::symw:-Elementals (25-3)
T2: :symg::symb:-Elves (45-15)
T1.X: :symu::symb::symg::symw::symr:-Dredge (40-1)
Vintage/Legacy: NEVER!! (0-0)
T4: Mono :symu:/Artifact-Gleemax Control (36-0)
2HG Constructed: :symu::symb:-Control (15-5)
I just modified the last 4 sideboard slots. 4x Fulminator Mage wrecks Faeries even more, and guess what! He's a Shaman. (Tutorable with Harbinger, and gets pumped by both of the lords.)
Well, that would be true, except that Everlasting Torment does nothing to a card that has PROTECTION FROM A COLOR. Protection does NOT work the same way as PREVENTION.
No Faeries deck can win that fast, but it can control your play with counterspells like Spellstutter Sprite, which will counter your TURN 3 Fulminator Mage.
:symu::symw:-Millfolk (14-6)
:symr::symu::symb::symg::symw:-Elementals (25-3)
T2: :symg::symb:-Elves (45-15)
T1.X: :symu::symb::symg::symw::symr:-Dredge (40-1)
Vintage/Legacy: NEVER!! (0-0)
T4: Mono :symu:/Artifact-Gleemax Control (36-0)
2HG Constructed: :symu::symb:-Control (15-5)
THE LAST WORD. Can'ts Go before Cans
The damage can't be prevented, However all the other rules about protection still apply, like I can't block it with my red creatures or target it with red spells. The trick is being able to FireSpout and unload my hand when they run out of heat.
And i guess i'll just have to settle for a Turn 4 Fulminator Mage Hooray Vexing Shusher!
D.E.Bt
D= DAMAGE:
Damage from a source of the specified color, spell, casting cost, etc. is NOT prevented. The source CANNOT legally deal the damage, because of the specified protection.
E= ENCHANTMENT:
Any enchantment, creature enchanted with, etc. CANNOT legally target the permanent with protection. Meaning: CANNOT be enchanted by, Blocked by, or Damaged by an enchantment or enchanted permanent of the protected color.
Bt= BEING TARGETTED:
Spells or abilities of the protected color or type CANNOT legally target the permanent with protection of the specified type. (i.e. Protection from Instants, Sorceries, Color, etc.)
The damage is NOT prevented in the way you are thinking.
:symu::symw:-Millfolk (14-6)
:symr::symu::symb::symg::symw:-Elementals (25-3)
T2: :symg::symb:-Elves (45-15)
T1.X: :symu::symb::symg::symw::symr:-Dredge (40-1)
Vintage/Legacy: NEVER!! (0-0)
T4: Mono :symu:/Artifact-Gleemax Control (36-0)
2HG Constructed: :symu::symb:-Control (15-5)
The damage is PREVENTED it can still legally deal damage to it , however that damage is reduced to 0 BECAUSE THE DAMAGE IS PREVENTED, but if damage can't be prevented then the damage is whatever the opposing creatures power is.
Lol I'm gonna go post it in the rules section of the forums to get a judge to confirm this.
Don't the Kithkin decks maindeck Burrenton Forge-Tender? If not, they surely sideboard it.
I originally meant the Goldmeadow Stalwart
Spyderman, there is a thread already constructed about it in the rules page of the Forums.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=116227
Well, you are HALF right. When damage is reduced to 0 it is prevented. But, in the case of protection, Damage isn't even dealt. Not even 0 Damage.
It's the same thing as cards with 0 casting cost (i.e. Spellbook, Tormod's Crypt, etc) and cards that have NO casting cost (i.e. Ancestral Vision, Wheel of Fate, etc).
:symu::symw:-Millfolk (14-6)
:symr::symu::symb::symg::symw:-Elementals (25-3)
T2: :symg::symb:-Elves (45-15)
T1.X: :symu::symb::symg::symw::symr:-Dredge (40-1)
Vintage/Legacy: NEVER!! (0-0)
T4: Mono :symu:/Artifact-Gleemax Control (36-0)
2HG Constructed: :symu::symb:-Control (15-5)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=116227
Learn 2 Read
Good you learned to ask someone that isn't from Wizards... try asking them instead.
:symu::symw:-Millfolk (14-6)
:symr::symu::symb::symg::symw:-Elementals (25-3)
T2: :symg::symb:-Elves (45-15)
T1.X: :symu::symb::symg::symw::symr:-Dredge (40-1)
Vintage/Legacy: NEVER!! (0-0)
T4: Mono :symu:/Artifact-Gleemax Control (36-0)
2HG Constructed: :symu::symb:-Control (15-5)
You can't prove that your right either because I hauled mine from a rule book and you didn't.
Anyways if you have nothing helpful to contribute to the deck then go away.
ok... Well, I was only trying to help out. If you can't take the critizism, then don't ask for the help.
But, I did call the 800 number, you'll be happy to hear that we were both right. They said that the damage is reduced to 0 which is not preventing the damage. Because, if the damage was prevented then there wouldn't be any at all. And since 0 damage is still taking damage (in a way), it's not prevented just reduced. They equated it to the example I made about the casting cost. A card with a casting cost of 0 still has a casting cost, and a card with NO casting cost doesn't have one.
:symu::symw:-Millfolk (14-6)
:symr::symu::symb::symg::symw:-Elementals (25-3)
T2: :symg::symb:-Elves (45-15)
T1.X: :symu::symb::symg::symw::symr:-Dredge (40-1)
Vintage/Legacy: NEVER!! (0-0)
T4: Mono :symu:/Artifact-Gleemax Control (36-0)
2HG Constructed: :symu::symb:-Control (15-5)
A prot red 1/1 is nothing to worry about. Since we do haul damage BEFORE they get a chance to block with Rage Forger.
Multiple Rage Forgers allow the ability to stack so they start taking 4-8 damage every time I just declare attackers. Tarm's Idea about the Heat Shimmer makes the deck stupid too. The only match-up this deck might have a problem with is Kithkin, post-side it's not as rough though.
Anymore ideas?
Seems like this deck could use the turn 1 help, be it a shaman or not
Eh I tested it, and he's not half bad, and he fits in the curve really well, however he's only pumped by the elemental lord.
The actual deck's heat comes from multiple counters going on your guys from multiple rage forgers.
I'm actually testing a Red-Green version of the deck that is more mid range.
-4 Incandescent Soulstoke
-4 Vexing Shusher (Moved to side for Faeries)
-4 Flame Javelin (Moved to side for Faeries)
-4 Heat Shimmer
-2 Shard Volley
-2 Mountain
-2 Forest
+2 Garruk Wildspeaker
+4 Fulminator Mage
+4 Wolf-Skull Shaman
+4 Leaf-Crowned Elder
+4 Chameleon Colossus
+4 Mutavault
The RDW version of the deck dominates faeries, however the more mid-range green version is more resilient against Rock and Kithkin. The deck dominates the 5 color elementals yet I haven't play tested against the Ten Commandments deck or R/G beats.
Stigma Lasher RR
Creature - Elemental Shaman
Wither
Whenever Stigma Lasher deals damage to a player, that player can't gain life for the rest of the game.
2/2
5/1/2008 Spells and abilities that would normally cause a player to gain life still resolve, but the life-gain part simply has no effect.
5/1/2008 If a cost includes life gain (like Invigorate's alternative cost does), that cost can't be paid.
5/1/2008 Effects that would replace gaining life with some other effect won't be able to do anything because it's impossible for players to gain life.
5/1/2008 Effects that replace an event with gaining life (like Words of Worship's effect does) will end up replacing the event with nothing.
5/1/2008 If an effect says to set your life total to a certain number, and that number is higher than your current life total, that effect will normally cause you to gain life equal to the difference. With Everlasting Torment in play, that part of the effect won't do anything. (If the number is lower than your current life total, the effect will work as normal.)
5/1/2008 The "damage can't be prevented" statement overrides all forms of preventing damage, including protection abilities. Damage prevention spells and abilities can still be played; they just don't do anything.
5/1/2008 Spells and abilities that replace or redirect damage aren't affected by Everlasting Torment's second ability. They'll work as normal.