A while ago, I posted a number of ability-matters cards that were largely deemed too narrow to be practical. Upon further thought, I want to take another swing at the idea with a cycle that works with two evergreen abilities per card to broaden the scope of the cards.
I've construed the cycle so, if a player controls all of the enchantments, a creature with any of the abilities mentioned in the first lines of text will have all of the mentioned abilities. The second line is a powerful triggered ability that synergizes with another in-color ability.
Knight's Training1W Enchantment(U)
Creatures you control with first strike have lifelink.
Whenever combat damage is dealt to a creature you control with vigilance, create a 1/1 white soldier creature token.
Scholar's Training1U Enchantment(U)
Creatures you control with hexproof have prowess.
Whenever a creature you control with flying deals combat damage to a player, draw a card.
Vampire's Training1B Enchantment (U)
Creatures you control with lifelink have deathtouch.
Whenever a creature you control with menace deals combat damage to a creature, it deals that much damage to each other creature blocking it.
Warrior's Training1R Enchantment (U)
Creatures you control with prowess have first strike.
Whenever a creature with haste enters the battlefield under your control, target creature can't block this turn.
Hunter's Training1G Enchantment(U)
Creatures you control with deathtouch have hexproof.
Whenever a creature you control with trample attacks, you may have target creature an opponent controls block it this turn if able.
Any advice or critiques, particularly pertaining to the narrowness issues with these kinds of cards?
These are certainly interesting but also strong. I don't think they are particularly narrow either. They are great build around cards and would do very well in EDH. These would warp a limited environment and if they were intended for boosters, they should be rare or cost 1 more to cast.
These do too much. Either the first ability or the 2nd, not both.
Also, these abilities might be best on creatures.
See, there's the problem. Flying is probably the only evergreen keyword common enough to justify getting its own "tribal" effects, so I decided to pair common evergreen abilities with less common evergreen abilities.
I see no problem with "Keyword Lord", but do it right:
Favorable Winds is fine. It's the kind of relatively low-power pump at a fair price that blue can get.
Filling out the cycle tightly would be fine: W lifelink G trample B Menace? R Haste
Out of all of these, Haste is probably the best, as it gives an otherwise static ability some practical long-term use.
But this is where making lords works:
Sample:
Blue Pump Lord2U
Creature - Bird Wizard (U)
Flying
Other creatures you control with flying get +1/+1.
2/2
This seems fun and fair and at (U) it'd give new players something fun they can build a casual deck around.
As for your A-> B cycle; I could see this. I'd like it to cost C each, and only have that one ability. I suppose if they had cycling, they could cost 1C. But that's why the p/t pump is practical - multiples stack.
I agree that these things do too much. They just feel ugly to me. These are filling the same design role as anthems (cheap enchantment that buffs a specific sub class of creatures) but rather than be anthems for something specific, they feel like they randomly care about two separate classes of creatures. Which brings me too.
Flying is probably the only evergreen keyword common enough to justify getting its own "tribal" effects, so I decided to pair common evergreen abilities with less common evergreen abilities.
If the problem is that evergreen abilities aren't common enough to make the designs work, then make the abilities more common. You can either do this environmentally, or you can do something like...
Knight's Training 1W
Enchantment {U}
Tap an untapped creature you control : Target creature gains first strike until end of turn.
Whenever a creature with first strike you control dies, create a 1/1 white soldier creature token.
...And if you are willing to move away from anthem style designs, lord style designs will usually play better and help to solve your "keyword isn't common enough" problem...
Master at Arms WW
Creature - Human Knight {R}
First Strike
Whenever Master at Arms or another creature with first strike you control dies, create a 1/1 white soldier creature token.
2/2
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Knight's Training 1W
Enchantment {U}
Tap an untapped creature you control : Target creature gains first strike until end of turn.
Whenever a creature with first strike you control dies, create a 1/1 white soldier creature token.
Cards that combo with themselves like this are broken. Find an existing card with no mana that does anything remotely like this. (Sheesh, infinite with any sac engine...)
Knight's Training 1W
Enchantment {U}
Tap an untapped creature you control : Target creature gains first strike until end of turn.
Whenever a creature with first strike you control dies, create a 1/1 white soldier creature token.
Cards that combo with themselves like this are broken. Find an existing card with no mana that does anything remotely like this. (Sheesh, infinite with any sac engine...)
Then add a mana cost. No big deal. It doesn't actually go infinite with any old sac outlet though. You need two of knights training + sac outlet in order to go infinite. Alternatively, a token doubler like doubling season can stand in for one copy of Knights training.
Mostly, I'm not concerned about costing as I've no idea what environment these would be in. I'm fairly confidant it wouldn't break anything in modern. Just a guess though.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Let's be clear: It is a big deal. It's an incredibly self-predatory degenerate combo. You miss the point - the problem isn't just how you can drown the infinite combo by adding a higher cost; it's that you designed it specifically to be abused.
You're not the designer that misses felidar guardian, you're the designer that makes it on purpose to create the combo. Unthinkable.
There is an enchantment that, at first glance, has a similar self-predatory nature IN STANDARD. But it's no where near as degenerate. If you're intent on defending this, the best way is to cite that card and say how they're similar and different and why your change is okay.
Mostly, I'm not concerned about costing as I've no idea what environment these would be in. I'm fairly confidant it wouldn't break anything in modern. Just a guess though.
I thought for 30 seconds and I have a turn 3 instant combo in modern. I can't see how confidence follows a random guess.
The holy grail is... left. Now to spend my life savings going left!
Let's be clear: It is a big deal. It's an incredibly self-predatory degenerate combo. You miss the point - the problem isn't just how you can drown the infinite combo by adding a higher cost; it's that you designed it specifically to be abused.
You're not the designer that misses felidar guardian, you're the designer that makes it on purpose to create the combo. Unthinkable.
Wizards builds three card combos into standard all the time. This is nothing new. These three card combos are almost never good.
I thought for 30 seconds and I have a turn 3 instant combo in modern. I can't see how confidence follows a random guess.
Three-card turn 3 combos already exist in Modern. This isn't anything new.
EDIT: And in any case, This is all beside the main point, "if the problem is that evergreen abilities aren't common enough to make the designs work, then make the abilities more common." This discussion of a specific example design is missing the forest for a tree.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
I like the design of the original cycle that said if you have X get Y. I think there's a cool cycle of creatures that look like:
Training Knight 1W
Creature - Human Knight(U)
Lifelink
Creatures you control with first strike have lifelink.
2/2
And continue the same pattern around. This way, they don't buff themselves, but buff and get buffed by their neighbors in the cycle. If you have all 5 out, they will have all 5 abilities.
The second abilities would make good "build around me" enchantments, maybe even at CMC 1-2, on their own, though I think the menace one may need to be tweaked: Probably should have a "If this attacks and isn't blocked do ..." since menace is already hard to block. As it is, you are just punishing them MORE for blocking, which means they are going to do it even less often.
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I've construed the cycle so, if a player controls all of the enchantments, a creature with any of the abilities mentioned in the first lines of text will have all of the mentioned abilities. The second line is a powerful triggered ability that synergizes with another in-color ability.
Knight's Training 1W
Enchantment(U)
Creatures you control with first strike have lifelink.
Whenever combat damage is dealt to a creature you control with vigilance, create a 1/1 white soldier creature token.
Scholar's Training 1U
Enchantment(U)
Creatures you control with hexproof have prowess.
Whenever a creature you control with flying deals combat damage to a player, draw a card.
Vampire's Training 1B
Enchantment (U)
Creatures you control with lifelink have deathtouch.
Whenever a creature you control with menace deals combat damage to a creature, it deals that much damage to each other creature blocking it.
Warrior's Training 1R
Enchantment (U)
Creatures you control with prowess have first strike.
Whenever a creature with haste enters the battlefield under your control, target creature can't block this turn.
Hunter's Training 1G
Enchantment(U)
Creatures you control with deathtouch have hexproof.
Whenever a creature you control with trample attacks, you may have target creature an opponent controls block it this turn if able.
Any advice or critiques, particularly pertaining to the narrowness issues with these kinds of cards?
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Also, these abilities might be best on creatures.
See, there's the problem. Flying is probably the only evergreen keyword common enough to justify getting its own "tribal" effects, so I decided to pair common evergreen abilities with less common evergreen abilities.
Favorable Winds is fine. It's the kind of relatively low-power pump at a fair price that blue can get.
Filling out the cycle tightly would be fine:
W lifelink
G trample
B Menace?
R Haste
Out of all of these, Haste is probably the best, as it gives an otherwise static ability some practical long-term use.
But this is where making lords works:
Sample:
Blue Pump Lord 2U
Creature - Bird Wizard (U)
Flying
Other creatures you control with flying get +1/+1.
2/2
This seems fun and fair and at (U) it'd give new players something fun they can build a casual deck around.
As for your A-> B cycle; I could see this. I'd like it to cost C each, and only have that one ability. I suppose if they had cycling, they could cost 1C. But that's why the p/t pump is practical - multiples stack.
If the problem is that evergreen abilities aren't common enough to make the designs work, then make the abilities more common. You can either do this environmentally, or you can do something like...
Knight's Training 1W
Enchantment {U}
Tap an untapped creature you control : Target creature gains first strike until end of turn.
Whenever a creature with first strike you control dies, create a 1/1 white soldier creature token.
...And if you are willing to move away from anthem style designs, lord style designs will usually play better and help to solve your "keyword isn't common enough" problem...
Master at Arms WW
Creature - Human Knight {R}
First Strike
Whenever Master at Arms or another creature with first strike you control dies, create a 1/1 white soldier creature token.
2/2
- Manite
Cards that combo with themselves like this are broken. Find an existing card with no mana that does anything remotely like this. (Sheesh, infinite with any sac engine...)
Then add a mana cost. No big deal. It doesn't actually go infinite with any old sac outlet though. You need two of knights training + sac outlet in order to go infinite. Alternatively, a token doubler like doubling season can stand in for one copy of Knights training.
Mostly, I'm not concerned about costing as I've no idea what environment these would be in. I'm fairly confidant it wouldn't break anything in modern. Just a guess though.
- Manite
Let's be clear: It is a big deal. It's an incredibly self-predatory degenerate combo. You miss the point - the problem isn't just how you can drown the infinite combo by adding a higher cost; it's that you designed it specifically to be abused.
You're not the designer that misses felidar guardian, you're the designer that makes it on purpose to create the combo. Unthinkable.
There is an enchantment that, at first glance, has a similar self-predatory nature IN STANDARD. But it's no where near as degenerate. If you're intent on defending this, the best way is to cite that card and say how they're similar and different and why your change is okay.
I thought for 30 seconds and I have a turn 3 instant combo in modern. I can't see how confidence follows a random guess.
The holy grail is... left. Now to spend my life savings going left!
Wizards builds three card combos into standard all the time. This is nothing new. These three card combos are almost never good.
Three-card turn 3 combos already exist in Modern. This isn't anything new.
EDIT: And in any case, This is all beside the main point, "if the problem is that evergreen abilities aren't common enough to make the designs work, then make the abilities more common." This discussion of a specific example design is missing the forest for a tree.
- Manite
Isn't your card an example of running into a tree because you were looking for the forest?
Training Knight 1W
Creature - Human Knight(U)
Lifelink
Creatures you control with first strike have lifelink.
2/2
And continue the same pattern around. This way, they don't buff themselves, but buff and get buffed by their neighbors in the cycle. If you have all 5 out, they will have all 5 abilities.
The second abilities would make good "build around me" enchantments, maybe even at CMC 1-2, on their own, though I think the menace one may need to be tweaked: Probably should have a "If this attacks and isn't blocked do ..." since menace is already hard to block. As it is, you are just punishing them MORE for blocking, which means they are going to do it even less often.