So I've been designing a set recently and I wanted to include a cycle of Incarnations. Incarnations are a bit odd in that there isn't much that makes them stand out much, but there are a few things we can see from the two cycles we've seen: Valor, Wonder, Filth, Anger, and Brawn are the first cycle. Purity, Guile, Dread, Hostility, and Vigor are the second cycle. Glory and Genesis aren't part of a particular cycle, but they are both incarnations as well.
As such we can note a few things on Incarnations
- They are named after feelings or notions (Filth and might be exceptions to this rule but one could argue that they represent a feeling or concept.)
- The interact with being in the graveyard somehow. (The Judgment cycle grant creatures abilities if they're in the graveyard whereas the Lorwyn cycle shuffle themselves back from it.)
So here's the cycle I've proposed within the current NWO. They might be too good for limited, but then again without the entire set (incomplete so far) it's not something that can be discussed a lot. But the set does include Devour and a lot of card draw, artifacts and looting.
Hope3WW
Creature - Elemental Incarnation (Rare)
Vigilance
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Hope is on the battlefield or in your graveyard, you may gain 2 life. So long as people wish for a better life, Hope will stand among them.
4/4
Perception3UU
Creature - Elemental Incarnation (Rare)
Flash
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Perception is on the battlefield or in your graveyard, Scry 1. So long as people seek understanding, Perception will carefully guide them.
4/4
Desire3BB
Creature - Elemental Incarnation (Rare)
Lifelink
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Desire is on the battlefield or in your graveyard, you may pay 2 life. If you do, draw a card. So long as people want from others, Desire will push them to do so.
4/4
Passion3RR
Creature - Elemental Incarnation (Rare)
Haste
At the beginning of your upkeep, if is on the battlefield or in your graveyard, you may discard a card. If you do, draw a card. So long as people have a cause and a heart, Passion will drive them onwards.
4/4
Diligence3GG
Creature - Elemental Incarnation (Rare)
Reach
At the beginning of your upkeep, if is on the battlefield or in your graveyard, create a 0/1 green Plant creature token. So long as people care for the world around them, Diligence will watch over them.
4/4
Does Hope need to have a may trigger? The majority of players will always want to gain the life and it makes less experienced players feel bad when they miss beneficial triggers.
Desire is may be too good for limited/Standard. Look at Indulgent Tormentor for comparison. The others seem fine if not underpowered. IT's hard to evaluate because you get the ability when it is in play and later in the graveyard, but they abilities for the most part are subtle.
Desire and Passion are both too powerful. Unless you have easy and multitudinous ways of exiling cards from graveyards. The powerlevel of these cards fluctuate greatly based on how many ways you have to discard them from your hand or exile them from graveyards. Either of these cards in a standard with at least two Tormenting Voice like cards and you have insane card advantage.
I feel like there should be some kind of condition on the triggers, at least from the graveyard. The Judgement incarnations either required a matching basic land type or mana to make use of them in the yard. Your cycle can just be dumped in the yard by discarding with any color to start getting value.
I agree, they might need some sort of a condition to keep them in check. Basic lands have already been done, maybe permanent colors this time? In that case the abilities can be a bit stronger as well even without that many ways in the environment that can exile them from the 'yard.
Maybe something like this based on Desire:
Desire 3BB
Creature - Elemental Incarnation (Rare)
Lifelink
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Desire is in your graveyard or on the battlefield and you control another black permanent, lose 1 life and draw a card. So long as people want from others, Desire will push them to do so.
5/3
Desire 3BB
Creature - Elemental Incarnation (Rare)
Lifelink
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Desire is in your graveyard or on the battlefield and you control another black permanent, lose 1 life and draw a card. So long as people want from others, Desire will push them to do so.
5/3
This looks good since it is a nice contrast/complement to Filth and co. which worked with the colorless basic lands to identify the deck as black.
On Desire specifically Iwant to note that lifelink is not a good design choice with upkeep triggered painful card draw.
You sometimes see lifelink combined with effects that allow you to pay life for an effect (usually an activated ability) and this works nicely since you control how often you pay life and can wager on using the ability a lot in the hope of getting back your life etc. And you can make plans to abuse the lifelink to get more activations e. g. by combining them with pump spells. The emotion you want to evoke is a feeling of cleverness, weighing options risk-reward, combo-plays etc.
On a triggered ability that drains you turn after turn for a card like Phyrexian Arena there is a factor of inevitability that usually makes this more interesting. You double down on the card draw, but you put yourself on a (slow) clock. There is an element of watching your life total dwindle that can over the course of the game create an emotional response of dread.
If you combine recuring life loss with lifelink though - especially with the ability to gain much more life than the life you lose each turn, you remove the dread aspect, but also don't have the clever aspect of wagering on the next turn and pushing the ability because you don't control when to activate it. It's a combination of effects that is lesser than its individual parts.
Menace/Deathtouch make for better evergreen keyword abilities to partner with a Phyrexian Arena.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Hey guys, thanks for the advice! I can see where you're coming from regarding the triggers from the graveyard, it'd be too easy to just discard them early on and to get an incremental advantage at no cost. I'm not sure which variant to implement though.
Edit A
Passion3RR
Creature: Elemental Incarnation
Haste
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Passion is on the battlefield or if Passion is in your graveyard and you control two or more Mountains, you may discard a card. If you do, draw a card. So long as people have a cause and a heart, Passion will drive them onwards.
4/4
I don't know if asking for two lands of that type is too specific, but it's not too bad and doesn't restrict them on the battlefield. This seems like the safer option but it feels a bit unoriginal considering its similarity to the Judgment cycle.
Edit B
Passion3RR
Creature: Elemental Incarnation
Haste
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Passion is on the battlefield or in your graveyard and you control, you may pay 1. If you do, discard a card, then draw a card. So long as people have a cause and a heart, Passion will drive them onwards.
4/4
This take is also fairly simple, and could allow for a slightly more powerful effect (3 life from Hope, Scry 2 for Perspective), but the mana payment does seem annoying.
Other few edits:
- Both Hope and Desire's triggers are no longer a "may" trigger.
- Lifelink on Desire is too good for sure, but I feel like Menace or Deathtouch don't fit with the flavor of the card. Flying could be an option though.
I dunno. The abilities should only be the graveyard not battlefield or graveyard, and there should a be secondary condition (like the fact that Valor and friends needed a basic land type)
Valor, Wonder, Filth, Anger, and Brawn are the first cycle.
Purity, Guile, Dread, Hostility, and Vigor are the second cycle.
Glory and Genesis aren't part of a particular cycle, but they are both incarnations as well.
As such we can note a few things on Incarnations
- They are named after feelings or notions (Filth and might be exceptions to this rule but one could argue that they represent a feeling or concept.)
- The interact with being in the graveyard somehow. (The Judgment cycle grant creatures abilities if they're in the graveyard whereas the Lorwyn cycle shuffle themselves back from it.)
So here's the cycle I've proposed within the current NWO. They might be too good for limited, but then again without the entire set (incomplete so far) it's not something that can be discussed a lot. But the set does include Devour and a lot of card draw, artifacts and looting.
Hope 3WW
Creature - Elemental Incarnation (Rare)
Vigilance
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Hope is on the battlefield or in your graveyard, you may gain 2 life.
So long as people wish for a better life, Hope will stand among them.
4/4
Perception 3UU
Creature - Elemental Incarnation (Rare)
Flash
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Perception is on the battlefield or in your graveyard, Scry 1.
So long as people seek understanding, Perception will carefully guide them.
4/4
Desire 3BB
Creature - Elemental Incarnation (Rare)
Lifelink
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Desire is on the battlefield or in your graveyard, you may pay 2 life. If you do, draw a card.
So long as people want from others, Desire will push them to do so.
4/4
Passion 3RR
Creature - Elemental Incarnation (Rare)
Haste
At the beginning of your upkeep, if is on the battlefield or in your graveyard, you may discard a card. If you do, draw a card.
So long as people have a cause and a heart, Passion will drive them onwards.
4/4
Diligence 3GG
Creature - Elemental Incarnation (Rare)
Reach
At the beginning of your upkeep, if is on the battlefield or in your graveyard, create a 0/1 green Plant creature token.
So long as people care for the world around them, Diligence will watch over them.
4/4
Desire is may be too good for limited/Standard. Look at Indulgent Tormentor for comparison. The others seem fine if not underpowered. IT's hard to evaluate because you get the ability when it is in play and later in the graveyard, but they abilities for the most part are subtle.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Maybe something like this based on Desire:
Desire 3BB
Creature - Elemental Incarnation (Rare)
Lifelink
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Desire is in your graveyard or on the battlefield and you control another black permanent, lose 1 life and draw a card.
So long as people want from others, Desire will push them to do so.
5/3
This looks good since it is a nice contrast/complement to Filth and co. which worked with the colorless basic lands to identify the deck as black.
On Desire specifically Iwant to note that lifelink is not a good design choice with upkeep triggered painful card draw.
You sometimes see lifelink combined with effects that allow you to pay life for an effect (usually an activated ability) and this works nicely since you control how often you pay life and can wager on using the ability a lot in the hope of getting back your life etc. And you can make plans to abuse the lifelink to get more activations e. g. by combining them with pump spells. The emotion you want to evoke is a feeling of cleverness, weighing options risk-reward, combo-plays etc.
On a triggered ability that drains you turn after turn for a card like Phyrexian Arena there is a factor of inevitability that usually makes this more interesting. You double down on the card draw, but you put yourself on a (slow) clock. There is an element of watching your life total dwindle that can over the course of the game create an emotional response of dread.
If you combine recuring life loss with lifelink though - especially with the ability to gain much more life than the life you lose each turn, you remove the dread aspect, but also don't have the clever aspect of wagering on the next turn and pushing the ability because you don't control when to activate it. It's a combination of effects that is lesser than its individual parts.
Menace/Deathtouch make for better evergreen keyword abilities to partner with a Phyrexian Arena.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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Edit A
I don't know if asking for two lands of that type is too specific, but it's not too bad and doesn't restrict them on the battlefield. This seems like the safer option but it feels a bit unoriginal considering its similarity to the Judgment cycle.
Edit B
This take is also fairly simple, and could allow for a slightly more powerful effect (3 life from Hope, Scry 2 for Perspective), but the mana payment does seem annoying.
Other few edits:
- Both Hope and Desire's triggers are no longer a "may" trigger.
- Lifelink on Desire is too good for sure, but I feel like Menace or Deathtouch don't fit with the flavor of the card. Flying could be an option though.
Thoughts?
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