Usbrelus, the Coward King1WUR
Legendary Creature - Human Noble WUR, T: Target creature you own becomes you commander and gains this ability. Any other commanders you have are no longer your commander.(That creature starts with a commander tax of 0)
2/2
Giorgiliano, Paragon of Standards2WUR
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier t: put a flag counter on target creature. That creature becomes a Flagbearer (While an opponent is choosing targets as part of casting a spell they control or activating an ability they control, that player must choose at least one Flagbearer on the battlefield if able.)
2/4
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
A while ago someone made a red card that did exactly this. It's interesting in that you can take a nice utility creature and make it so you can always cast it. While staying psuedo balanced by the fact that you have to find the card.
Should this be limited to legendary creatures? And to make it even more interesting should it be open to walkers as well?
A while ago someone made a red card that did exactly this.
I remember that. It was super cheap to cast and worked on any player's creature for that player's commander. I didn't particularly like the gameplay implications.
I like this version a lot more because it's more about wacky versatility than, well, locking your opponent out of their commander for the rest of the game. Restricting the ability to cards that could otherwise be commanders makes sense, even if it does lessen possibilities.
If I had one suggestion, it would be to have the ability ignore color identity. I know that rules changes have since removed the mana production restriction, but explicitly calling it out could skirt some potential confusion.
Honestly i didn't put too much thought behind him, except choosing jeskai because black and green have both efficient creatures and efficient tutor for those creatures, so that would lead to repetitive gameplay.
By the way, i added another one.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Quite a few issues, rules-wise...
The reminder text is plainly wrong because partners are a thing. As-worded the ability the creature gains to then hand off commander-ness to other creatures goes away when it changes zones. Also both commander damage and commander tax are established to be connected to the individual physical card.
That last one gets you into weird situations like whether a creature who becomes your commander, hits someone, stops being your commander, dies, comes back, then becomes your commander again, then hits the same person again also counts its prior commander damage. It can also lead to weirdness if you, say, make one of the Seven Dwarves your commander, since that obfuscates which one is your commander.
Perhaps the trickiest complication: your opponent could gain control of Usbrelus and use his ability. Then they would presumably transfer his commander-ness to one of their own creatures, which is all sorts of messy.
Overall I would say lessen the scope of this ability. Maybe change it to "1W, T: Put a lieutenant counter on target creature you own." and then separately "If ~ is your commander, combat damage dealt by creatures you own with a lieutenant counter counts as commander damage dealt by ~."
or something along those lines.
As an additional note, a three-color creature with a utility ability that doesn't affect the battlefield or generate card advantage should be a lot stronger by current creature design. I would say a 3/4 Vigilance, Hexproof, Haste would be fine regardless of which version you use. (Hexproof in this case is fine because he's not a value engine creature.)
Regarding Giorgiliano: creature types, which 'Flagbearer' currently is, no longer have inherent rules. Spells and abilities being required to target Flagbearers would need to be spelled out as an ability either on Giorgiliano or given to the target creature as part of the ability.
Also worth noting: his own ability would also be required to target Flagbearers, which may or may not be intentional.
QThe reminder text is plainly wrong because partners are a thing. As-worded the ability the creature gains to then hand off commander-ness to other creatures goes away when it changes zones. Also both commander damage and commander tax are established to be connected to the individual physical card.
Yeah that was me not reminding the exact text of the test card, i should have fixed it now.
Perhaps the trickiest complication: your opponent could gain control of Usbrelus and use his ability. Then they would presumably transfer his commander-ness to one of their own creatures, which is all sorts of messy.[/card]
That actually sound crazy and fun just for commander!
[quote from="Anachronity »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/custom-card-creation/815079-a-really-weird-commander?comment=5"] As an additional note, a three-color creature with a utility ability that doesn't affect the battlefield or generate card advantage should be a lot stronger by current creature design. I would say a 3/4 Vigilance, Hexproof, Haste would be fine regardless of which version you use. (Hexproof in this case is fine because he's not a value engine creature.)
Honestly i don't think anything similar to this will ever be printed... and probably it should be never printed. I just wanted to goof a little a makes people "wait... what?", so i didn't put too much brain behind their stats.
Regarding Giorgiliano: creature types, which 'Flagbearer' currently is, no longer have inherent rules.
Oh yeah i know, i have worded him that way exactly for the wtf effect. Not only he has a weird effect, he also brings a weird rule baggage with him.
But it should probably be changed, given the existance of changelings
Also worth noting: his own ability would also be required to target Flagbearers, which may or may not be intentional.
Why so? Only opponents have to choose flagbearers
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
That actually sound crazy and fun just for commander!
It's not just an unusual and wacky circumstance, it flat out doesn't function within the rules. You literally have to house-rule the outcome. The ability to determine with certainty the outcome of any interaction of two cards is one of the greatest strengths of Magic.
If you and your friends enjoy that sort of wackiness and can all get along with that stuff happening then sure, just go for it. No need to ask for advice from this forum.
But as a design for an actual card that sort of mentality doesn't work. It creates arguments and ambiguous gameplay if you're playing with people you don't know. So my advice as someone who isn't part of your local playgroup is to go with something that works within the rules.
Also worth noting: his own ability would also be required to target Flagbearers, which may or may not be intentional.
Why so? Only opponents have to choose flagbearers
Fair point. I missed that part.
Still, that's reminder text, not rules text. It has no effect on the game. As-worded all the ability does is put a flag counter on a creature and changes their creature type to Flagbearer. Nothing else. If you want him to have an effect like you're describing then there's a simple and rules-supported way to achieve something similar, and that's to simply put it on a static ability the same as the old cards do it.
"While an opponent is choosing targets as part of casting a spell they control or activating an ability they control, that player must choose at least one Flagbearer on the battlefield if able."
Or alternatively, if you want the effect to persist after your commander leaves the field...
T: put a flag counter on target creature (you control?). As long as that creature has a flag counter on it, it is a Flagbearer in addition to its other types and has "While an opponent is choosing targets as part of casting a spell they control or activating an ability they control, that player must choose at least one Flagbearer on the battlefield if able."
That way it's pretty much equivalent to putting a Coalition Flag on something and there's no doesn't-actually-work rules weirdness.
As a side note, being able to effectively blank spot removal as a tap ability with no cost is kinda crazy. But he is a 5-drop with unremarkable stats, so, 'eh'.
[quote from="ilovesaprolings »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/custom-card-creation/815079-a-really-weird-commander?comment=6"]That actually sound crazy and fun just for commander!
It's not just an unusual and wacky circumstance, it flat out doesn't function within the rules. You literally have to house-rule the outcome. The ability to determine with certainty the outcome of any interaction of two cards is one of the greatest strengths of Magic.[/card]
How so?
Player A has Volrath as commander. He steals player B's Usbrelus.
Player A activate Usbrelus, targeting his own... idk, mossbridge troll? Or another random creature player B owns.
Mossbridge Troll becomes the new player A's commander
Why you say it doesn't work?
As a side note, being able to effectively blank spot removal as a tap ability with no cost is kinda crazy. But he is a 5-drop with unremarkable stats, so, 'eh'.
Fair enough! Behold the new paragon of standards!
Giorgiliano, Paragon of Standards2WUR
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier
Vigilance t: put a flag counter on target creature you control. That creature becomes a Flagbearer. 1WUR, t: put a flag counter on target creature . That creature becomes a Flagbearer.
While an opponent is choosing targets as part of casting a spell they control or activating an ability they control, that player must choose at least one Flagbearer on the battlefield if able.
2/4
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Player A has Volrath as commander. He steals player B's Usbrelus.
Player A activate Usbrelus, targeting his own... idk, mossbridge troll? Or another random creature player B owns.
Mossbridge Troll becomes the new player A's commander
Why you say it doesn't work?
Well with the original wording it would presumably result in player A having two commanders (Voltrath and the troll) and player B having none. This is because, despite the reminder text, the rules of the game say that it is in fact possible to have multiple commanders. The new wording works though, at least in this regard.
However the new commander still loses the ability to transfer its command when it changes zones. Abilities given to a creature are 'forgotten' when a card changes zones and becomes a new game object. Commander-ness is an exception to this, but the granted ability isn't. Also it's unclear what happens when a token becomes your commander, since tokens normally disappear when they change zones and are not represented in game terms by a physical card (even though for simplicity you might physically put a card on the table to represent them), and commander-ness is tied to a physical card.
And once more: reminder text is not rules text. You would need to spell out in rules text that the new physical card that is your commander has no 'memory' of any prior occasion where that same physical card was your commander if that's your intent. Because forgetting prior actions as your commander is not the default assumption of the format (there is in fact no assumption that changing commanders mid-game is possible at all), and a card that runs contrary to the rules needs to clarify what happens as a result. You could also do that through house rulings which the reminder text references, but then you need to be sure your new house rulings aren't going to break the game or run contrary to any existing rules. A card requiring its own house rules is generally a bad sign when it comes to card design.
Even if you're cool with that and your group is cool with that then you still need to spell out those new rules ahead of time to avoid making up rules mid-game from a position of bias. Unless maybe your group is really just into some Calvinball-type stuff where deciding after blocks that since you gave your deathtouch creature another instance of deathtouch it should now instantly kill players.
Thinking more on it, this sort of chicanery could actually see print if a whole cycle of command-swappers were printed as part of a set. Because in that case there would be enough cards to justify making the new rulings, just like partner justified new rulings about how commander tax and damage work.
e.g.
Boros Legend WR
Legendary Creature - Pegasus Soldier
First Strike, Haste
Whenever ~ attacks, you may transfer command to another nontoken attacking creature you own.
3/1
Simic Legend 1UG
Legendary Creature - Lizard Wizard UG, T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
Whenever a +1/+1 counter is placed on a nontoken creature you own, you may transfer command to that creature.
2/3
Neat Artifact 4
Artifact 1, T: Transfer command to target nontoken legendary creature you own.
and so on.
So I think the best implementation would be to just say...
"WUR, T: Transfer command to target nontoken creature you own. That creature gains this ability for as long as it is your commander."
And then define what "transfer command" means separately from the card so that you can handle edge-cases and so on without gumming up the card itself with words and rulings.
At that point, I think the only remaining issues I can think of is when you get ambiguity from having multiples of a creature like with the Seven Dwarves, or else when an effect causes something like a basic land to become a creature. Some of the rules for commander sort of rely on the assumption that your commander is visibly distinct from other cards in the deck, but strictly speaking it still works if they aren't. It's just potentially confusing.
However the new commander still loses the ability to transfer its command when it changes zones.
Darn, yeah, i completely mised this. Bummer. Well i guess it was fun while it lasted, but i don't think he will never work as i intended
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
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Usbrelus, the Coward King 1WUR
Legendary Creature - Human Noble
WUR, T: Target creature you own becomes you commander and gains this ability. Any other commanders you have are no longer your commander.(That creature starts with a commander tax of 0)
2/2
Giorgiliano, Paragon of Standards 2WUR
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier
t: put a flag counter on target creature. That creature becomes a Flagbearer (While an opponent is choosing targets as part of casting a spell they control or activating an ability they control, that player must choose at least one Flagbearer on the battlefield if able.)
2/4
Should this be limited to legendary creatures? And to make it even more interesting should it be open to walkers as well?
I remember that. It was super cheap to cast and worked on any player's creature for that player's commander. I didn't particularly like the gameplay implications.
I like this version a lot more because it's more about wacky versatility than, well, locking your opponent out of their commander for the rest of the game. Restricting the ability to cards that could otherwise be commanders makes sense, even if it does lessen possibilities.
If I had one suggestion, it would be to have the ability ignore color identity. I know that rules changes have since removed the mana production restriction, but explicitly calling it out could skirt some potential confusion.
By the way, i added another one.
The reminder text is plainly wrong because partners are a thing. As-worded the ability the creature gains to then hand off commander-ness to other creatures goes away when it changes zones. Also both commander damage and commander tax are established to be connected to the individual physical card.
That last one gets you into weird situations like whether a creature who becomes your commander, hits someone, stops being your commander, dies, comes back, then becomes your commander again, then hits the same person again also counts its prior commander damage. It can also lead to weirdness if you, say, make one of the Seven Dwarves your commander, since that obfuscates which one is your commander.
Perhaps the trickiest complication: your opponent could gain control of Usbrelus and use his ability. Then they would presumably transfer his commander-ness to one of their own creatures, which is all sorts of messy.
Overall I would say lessen the scope of this ability. Maybe change it to "1W, T: Put a lieutenant counter on target creature you own." and then separately "If ~ is your commander, combat damage dealt by creatures you own with a lieutenant counter counts as commander damage dealt by ~."
or something along those lines.
As an additional note, a three-color creature with a utility ability that doesn't affect the battlefield or generate card advantage should be a lot stronger by current creature design. I would say a 3/4 Vigilance, Hexproof, Haste would be fine regardless of which version you use. (Hexproof in this case is fine because he's not a value engine creature.)
Regarding Giorgiliano: creature types, which 'Flagbearer' currently is, no longer have inherent rules. Spells and abilities being required to target Flagbearers would need to be spelled out as an ability either on Giorgiliano or given to the target creature as part of the ability.
Also worth noting: his own ability would also be required to target Flagbearers, which may or may not be intentional.
- Rabid Wombat
Yeah that was me not reminding the exact text of the test card, i should have fixed it now.
Honestly i don't think anything similar to this will ever be printed... and probably it should be never printed. I just wanted to goof a little a makes people "wait... what?", so i didn't put too much brain behind their stats.
Oh yeah i know, i have worded him that way exactly for the wtf effect. Not only he has a weird effect, he also brings a weird rule baggage with him.
But it should probably be changed, given the existance of changelings
Why so? Only opponents have to choose flagbearers
If you and your friends enjoy that sort of wackiness and can all get along with that stuff happening then sure, just go for it. No need to ask for advice from this forum.
But as a design for an actual card that sort of mentality doesn't work. It creates arguments and ambiguous gameplay if you're playing with people you don't know. So my advice as someone who isn't part of your local playgroup is to go with something that works within the rules.
Fair point. I missed that part.
Still, that's reminder text, not rules text. It has no effect on the game. As-worded all the ability does is put a flag counter on a creature and changes their creature type to Flagbearer. Nothing else. If you want him to have an effect like you're describing then there's a simple and rules-supported way to achieve something similar, and that's to simply put it on a static ability the same as the old cards do it.
"While an opponent is choosing targets as part of casting a spell they control or activating an ability they control, that player must choose at least one Flagbearer on the battlefield if able."
Or alternatively, if you want the effect to persist after your commander leaves the field...
T: put a flag counter on target creature (you control?). As long as that creature has a flag counter on it, it is a Flagbearer in addition to its other types and has "While an opponent is choosing targets as part of casting a spell they control or activating an ability they control, that player must choose at least one Flagbearer on the battlefield if able."
That way it's pretty much equivalent to putting a Coalition Flag on something and there's no doesn't-actually-work rules weirdness.
As a side note, being able to effectively blank spot removal as a tap ability with no cost is kinda crazy. But he is a 5-drop with unremarkable stats, so, 'eh'.
- Rabid Wombat
How so?
Player A has Volrath as commander. He steals player B's Usbrelus.
Player A activate Usbrelus, targeting his own... idk, mossbridge troll? Or another random creature player B owns.
Mossbridge Troll becomes the new player A's commander
Why you say it doesn't work?
Fair enough! Behold the new paragon of standards!
Giorgiliano, Paragon of Standards 2WUR
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier
Vigilance
t: put a flag counter on target creature you control. That creature becomes a Flagbearer.
1WUR, t: put a flag counter on target creature . That creature becomes a Flagbearer.
While an opponent is choosing targets as part of casting a spell they control or activating an ability they control, that player must choose at least one Flagbearer on the battlefield if able.
2/4
However the new commander still loses the ability to transfer its command when it changes zones. Abilities given to a creature are 'forgotten' when a card changes zones and becomes a new game object. Commander-ness is an exception to this, but the granted ability isn't. Also it's unclear what happens when a token becomes your commander, since tokens normally disappear when they change zones and are not represented in game terms by a physical card (even though for simplicity you might physically put a card on the table to represent them), and commander-ness is tied to a physical card.
And once more: reminder text is not rules text. You would need to spell out in rules text that the new physical card that is your commander has no 'memory' of any prior occasion where that same physical card was your commander if that's your intent. Because forgetting prior actions as your commander is not the default assumption of the format (there is in fact no assumption that changing commanders mid-game is possible at all), and a card that runs contrary to the rules needs to clarify what happens as a result. You could also do that through house rulings which the reminder text references, but then you need to be sure your new house rulings aren't going to break the game or run contrary to any existing rules. A card requiring its own house rules is generally a bad sign when it comes to card design.
Even if you're cool with that and your group is cool with that then you still need to spell out those new rules ahead of time to avoid making up rules mid-game from a position of bias. Unless maybe your group is really just into some Calvinball-type stuff where deciding after blocks that since you gave your deathtouch creature another instance of deathtouch it should now instantly kill players.
- Rabid Wombat
e.g.
Boros Legend WR
Legendary Creature - Pegasus Soldier
First Strike, Haste
Whenever ~ attacks, you may transfer command to another nontoken attacking creature you own.
3/1
Simic Legend 1UG
Legendary Creature - Lizard Wizard
UG, T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
Whenever a +1/+1 counter is placed on a nontoken creature you own, you may transfer command to that creature.
2/3
Neat Artifact 4
Artifact
1, T: Transfer command to target nontoken legendary creature you own.
and so on.
So I think the best implementation would be to just say...
"WUR, T: Transfer command to target nontoken creature you own. That creature gains this ability for as long as it is your commander."
And then define what "transfer command" means separately from the card so that you can handle edge-cases and so on without gumming up the card itself with words and rulings.
At that point, I think the only remaining issues I can think of is when you get ambiguity from having multiples of a creature like with the Seven Dwarves, or else when an effect causes something like a basic land to become a creature. Some of the rules for commander sort of rely on the assumption that your commander is visibly distinct from other cards in the deck, but strictly speaking it still works if they aren't. It's just potentially confusing.
- Rabid Wombat
Darn, yeah, i completely mised this. Bummer. Well i guess it was fun while it lasted, but i don't think he will never work as i intended