You know, this is such a unique effect that it's difficult to evaluate. Kudos again guys, for a completely different card that any of us have played before.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
People who suggest that this card should have higher toughness than power are very mistaken. Which archetype would this card belong to? Which archetype would it not belong to?
Oh, and, before you get lost in your own oh-so-great thoughts about power level, try looking up the creation threads and learn more about the discussion that took place.
If this spell makes counterspells useless, then getting rid of it is easy. It will
just take one kill spell rotating around the table then poof, no more golem.
If this spell makes counterspells useless, then getting rid of it is easy. It will
just take one kill spell rotating around the table then poof, no more golem.
The thing with this is, you can much more easily make sure it wont die then kill it.
And its a solid creature even without anything its good enough to "delay" a wrath and bash in for more damage.
A deck that could abuse this card would have stuff that isnt a spell.
Most annoying would be a Stoneforge Mythic / Counterbalance approach, as you could use stuff like Lightning Greaves to keep it alive (just as an example) ; or swords to protect it ; an counterbalance goes totally crazy if you have a turn to prepare your stacks.
It also works with Snapcaster mage quite well, you probably would use Aether Vial in a deck with this aswell (if you can manage a Stoneblade deck with more creatures, like Phantasmal Image and such).
Its a very strong card which should be out of question.
The card does what it should do, it delays spells, and it does a strong job doing that.
What i see as a problematic is the situations were this card simply says "opponents cant cast spells anymore" ; which happens quite handy with cards you might play anyway.
The short version is: this is a meta-warping card. It's power level may not qualify it as "broken", but it most certainly acts as a card that players would have to recognize and prepare for if it existed. Consider too that it is an artifact, allowing both creature and artifact removal to hit it.
I do agree with those posting about the card's offensive prowess being too high. A 3 power wizard is higher than normal. Artifacts tend to have low p/t for their CC as well; and creatures with powerful effects on them tend to then be even lower in p/t compared to their CC.
For those who compared it to Tefferi, he takes heaps of blue mana and an additional mana - two effects that reduce his playability substantially. A 5 drop with a difficult manacost should be more powerful than a 4 drop with all colorless mana.
I can't speak to how I'd consider the card if it were actually printed, but congratulations to those who put in the effort in making it for thinking outside the box.
People who suggest that this card should have higher toughness than power are very mistaken. Which archetype would this card belong to? Which archetype would it not belong to?
I think they point they're trying to make is that the card is so powerful already that it doesn't need to also be an efficiently costed creature. If this were a 2/3 or a 1/3, aggressive decks would have to think twice about using a slot for it. Cards shouldn't always be maximized for their intended role.
If this spell makes counterspells useless, then getting rid of it is easy. It will
just take one kill spell rotating around the table then poof, no more golem.
I agree that this isn't nearly as hard to get rid of as people make it out to be. Note that if you cast an instant speed removal spell the turn it hits the battlefield, it still dies before doing anything.
The short version is: this is a meta-warping card. It's power level may not qualify it as "broken", but it most certainly acts as a card that players would have to recognize and prepare for if it existed.
I agree with this. Personally, I believe that "meta-warping" cards should be on the table when it comes to YMTC. Yes, we could have made this cost a lot more and no one would have bat an eye, but it's more interesting to discuss the ramifications of this card when it skirts this line.
To everyone; remember that you can help improve future cards by participating in YMTC yourself!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
To everyone; remember that you can help improve future cards by participating in YMTC yourself!
Advertise better, don't know how to do that, but I always forget about them until a new one pops up on the main page.
This card is very well designed in all aspects besides the mana cost. If you want a 3/3, which you do for the design, sure, no questions about it, then it should cost more. Personally, I think this card "pushed" is at 5, at 4 the card becomes too dangerous to really be considered safe.
But all this is fine, if we compare to WotC method of card creation, this card would be a perfectly fine card, I feel, to hand off to development where they'd figure out the proper cost. In this sense it's perfect.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
The thing with this is, you can much more easily make sure it wont die then kill it.
And its a solid creature even without anything its good enough to "delay" a wrath and bash in for more damage.
A deck that could abuse this card would have stuff that isnt a spell.
Most annoying would be a Stoneforge Mythic / Counterbalance approach, as you could use stuff like Lightning Greaves to keep it alive (just as an example) ; or swords to protect it ; an counterbalance goes totally crazy if you have a turn to prepare your stacks.
It also works with Snapcaster mage quite well, you probably would use Aether Vial in a deck with this aswell (if you can manage a Stoneblade deck with more creatures, like Phantasmal Image and such).
Its a very strong card which should be out of question.
The card does what it should do, it delays spells, and it does a strong job doing that.
What i see as a problematic is the situations were this card simply says "opponents cant cast spells anymore" ; which happens quite handy with cards you might play anyway.
It's a "build around me" card, and that's not against it. No one is going
to say that this card isn't powerful because any player with an inkling
of understanding for game balance will identify it as really good.. but
there are lots of cards that are really good that are "build around me"
just like this golem.
Possibility Storm shuts down the game harder than this card, and it
is way harder to get rid of while it is in play than an artifact creature.
My only gripe is that this creature can be played in any deck, and I am
not a huge fan of cards that are really good that can fit wherever it is
put. But I'm willing to overlook that because it will more than likely make
for some pretty fun games.
Advertise better, don't know how to do that, but I always forget about them until a new one pops up on the main page.
Unfortunately I don't have that power. I'm not an admin or even a mod, I just run this in my spare time, so anything beyond this forum would have to be a higher-up. I could always ask to see if anything like that is available, but I personally don't have those kinds of resources.
But all this is fine, if we compare to WotC method of card creation, this card would be a perfectly fine card, I feel, to hand off to development where they'd figure out the proper cost. In this sense it's perfect.
It's possible we need to add a final "development" stage to the card that involves a wider audience. Not sure how that would work though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In the beginning, MTG Salvation switched to a new forum format.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
It was at that moment that I realized: I'm kinda just making these things up. We can just write the rules the way we want them to work. People will have fun, and people will get it.
It hoses counterspells
It hoses all many card combo decks. Storm, High Tide, Elves, etc.
It hoses heavy cantrip decks. If they don't have an answer in hand, they're never going to be able to dig in time.
It hoses Stifle
It hoses X spells
It hoses discard
It slows any two card affects. Mana accels, tutors, etc.
It puts whoever is ahead on board further ahead. Addind a 3/3 increases the odds that you are ahead.
This is when its thrown into a deck randomly. When you put in decks that can abuse it, shop/tomb or decks that don't have to cast from hand... it gets silly
Very interesting design but this should not be colorless.
Besides that I think it is quite a cool design, though probably a bit on the strong side. Basically what FlavorTextWins are already a bunch of reasons though most of them only come up in older formats where a 4 mana spell is of course quite questionable already.
Just the fact that every response to this is delayed makes this too good in aggro decks imo. Imagine just playing this against some sort of control or midrange, you pretty much delay sweepers, thragtusks and all that sort of stuff for a turn and you can perfectly play your creatures to unsuspend the turn after the sweeper hits coming in with haste. Of course instant removal still hits this fairly well and it isn't that big in itself so it may actually work out fine but i'm never a fan of this generic type of card being artifact. I feel 2WW or something like that would actually make it cool though.
The fact it is symmetric is very interesting and it would probably resemble thalia in terms of usage it would see.
Great design, but colorless seems wrong. If this was Time Spiral Block I would put this in an unlikely color like Black or White, not the obvious blue. In green and red it would be too good maybe.
Great in aggro. Remember that susupend puts the creature into the 'field with haste, so in terms of attacking there is absolutely no drawback. It even provides a small advantage of having the creature suspended and protected from spells.
The opponent, however will have the disadvantage of being unable to block or cast removal.
I really don't think this card is broken. There are better combos; it's effect is symmetrical; and they printed a LAND that hoses counterspells. More likely than not this is a Silence that gets killed after the opponent doesn't cast spells for a turn.
lol what? They printed a land that stops creatures from being countered and that doesn't apply to fun cards like show and tell. Also, those lands don't have bodies
I really like the idea of the card, but I think it could use a couple of tweaks in regard to its p/t and its mana cost. But it definitely is an interesting card.
This card is literally a 4cc time walk. That is because it essentially set's your opponent 1 turn behind for the rest of the game// until this is removed.
This card is absolutely bonkers, especially vintage. If you don't understand why, then you simply haven't played enough magic.
But yes... not only does it hose pretty much all instants. Which... really can't happen. In the meantime while things are suspended, more spheres drop... meaning that your mox that you were going to pay 1 for next turn now costs 2 and you can't actually pay for it so it fizzles.... yeah nah brah. This card is like chalice on crack for a workshop deck.
Now I don't actually know if a workshop deck would cut anything for this though. I mean it is a deck with no draw engine, so if you don't capitalize on the 1 turn that you have between spells being casted, then you will have a threat hit the board... which really isn't that much different now except this isn't a hard lock w/ anything.
I think the card would be good and still playable if it said all artifacts, creatures and enchantments
yeah - obviously I disagree with you, John. Spam Warning!.....Amazing - even in a forum where posts don't count, there's spam. That proves that getting rid of the post-count won't help getting rid of spam! Thans for this excellent example! - Craven
I was the one who originally proposed this cost 6, but was downvoted to 4. In hindsight I think this is fine as it does two very important things: 1) Enters-the-battlefield-Magic no longer works, which is great, 2) It does warp the meta in interesting ways. Yes it is probably broken. Yes it would probably dominate if released. But fixing the meta is an easy problem to solve. Simply print a cycle of cheap, common creatures with activated abilities which can deal with this guy.
I think if it said "Whenever a player casts a permanent spell.." or something along those lines it would be much less broken and rather interesting to play with. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE this card, I think it's really cool, but I also think it overpowered and detrimental to the fun aspect of MTG.
I'm missing how this is broken.
Vintage: Vintage is a ridiculous format that wallows in its own brokenness. Maybe this card would be restricted, like, y'know that broken card Ponder, that is so fine.
Legacy counters: Since when is it super duper easy to resolve 4 drops against a counter deck? If you put cards in your deck that rely on interaction with the Golem, you're going to lose when the Golem is what gets FoW'ed.
Legacy Combo: Most combos have an Achille's heel for less CMC.
Aggro getting out aggro'ed by this because of the delays? It's really not that different from Standstill guys. Standstill, 2 mana 0/0 creature that locks both players down from casting spells. Golem, 4 mana 3/3 creature that locks down both players from playing spells. 2 mana for 3 power is not a bargain in legacy, if you can drop this guy and have a better board, it's your opponent's fault. I guess both cards are a ***** if you're on the draw, but card design isn't responsible for reverting first turn advantage.
And there's nothing wrong with a card like this being colorless, it doesn't fit into every deck.
That's all assuming decks don't change their mainboards at all to handle the guy. Bloodbraid Elf into Lightning Helix is absolutely hilarious, the Helix kills the Golem immediately, the Bloodbraid comes back next turn with a new Cascade. Ancient Grudge from the yard ignores the effect and removes him.
It has an interesting interaction with some borderline playable cards that get a lot better if you just suspect your opponent might drop a golem. Augur of Skulls gets pretty interesting, for one.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Target creature loses shroud until end of turn.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
Oh, and, before you get lost in your own oh-so-great thoughts about power level, try looking up the creation threads and learn more about the discussion that took place.
just take one kill spell rotating around the table then poof, no more golem.
WUR Enduring Ideal RUW
GGG Stompy Crux GGG
-- Elder Dragon Highlander --
UBU
Grimgrin, Zombie HordeUBURWR
Jor Kadeen TronRWRBRU Sedris Beatdown URB
UUU Llawan, Empress of "No" UUU
WBW Vish Kal Tron WBW
GRG Thromok Token GRG
RRR Zo-Zu, Hater of Everything RRR
The thing with this is, you can much more easily make sure it wont die then kill it.
And its a solid creature even without anything its good enough to "delay" a wrath and bash in for more damage.
A deck that could abuse this card would have stuff that isnt a spell.
Most annoying would be a Stoneforge Mythic / Counterbalance approach, as you could use stuff like Lightning Greaves to keep it alive (just as an example) ; or swords to protect it ; an counterbalance goes totally crazy if you have a turn to prepare your stacks.
It also works with Snapcaster mage quite well, you probably would use Aether Vial in a deck with this aswell (if you can manage a Stoneblade deck with more creatures, like Phantasmal Image and such).
Its a very strong card which should be out of question.
The card does what it should do, it delays spells, and it does a strong job doing that.
What i see as a problematic is the situations were this card simply says "opponents cant cast spells anymore" ; which happens quite handy with cards you might play anyway.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
I do agree with those posting about the card's offensive prowess being too high. A 3 power wizard is higher than normal. Artifacts tend to have low p/t for their CC as well; and creatures with powerful effects on them tend to then be even lower in p/t compared to their CC.
For those who compared it to Tefferi, he takes heaps of blue mana and an additional mana - two effects that reduce his playability substantially. A 5 drop with a difficult manacost should be more powerful than a 4 drop with all colorless mana.
I can't speak to how I'd consider the card if it were actually printed, but congratulations to those who put in the effort in making it for thinking outside the box.
I think they point they're trying to make is that the card is so powerful already that it doesn't need to also be an efficiently costed creature. If this were a 2/3 or a 1/3, aggressive decks would have to think twice about using a slot for it. Cards shouldn't always be maximized for their intended role.
I agree that this isn't nearly as hard to get rid of as people make it out to be. Note that if you cast an instant speed removal spell the turn it hits the battlefield, it still dies before doing anything.
I agree with this. Personally, I believe that "meta-warping" cards should be on the table when it comes to YMTC. Yes, we could have made this cost a lot more and no one would have bat an eye, but it's more interesting to discuss the ramifications of this card when it skirts this line.
To everyone; remember that you can help improve future cards by participating in YMTC yourself!
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
Advertise better, don't know how to do that, but I always forget about them until a new one pops up on the main page.
This card is very well designed in all aspects besides the mana cost. If you want a 3/3, which you do for the design, sure, no questions about it, then it should cost more. Personally, I think this card "pushed" is at 5, at 4 the card becomes too dangerous to really be considered safe.
But all this is fine, if we compare to WotC method of card creation, this card would be a perfectly fine card, I feel, to hand off to development where they'd figure out the proper cost. In this sense it's perfect.
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
It's a "build around me" card, and that's not against it. No one is going
to say that this card isn't powerful because any player with an inkling
of understanding for game balance will identify it as really good.. but
there are lots of cards that are really good that are "build around me"
just like this golem.
Possibility Storm shuts down the game harder than this card, and it
is way harder to get rid of while it is in play than an artifact creature.
My only gripe is that this creature can be played in any deck, and I am
not a huge fan of cards that are really good that can fit wherever it is
put. But I'm willing to overlook that because it will more than likely make
for some pretty fun games.
WUR Enduring Ideal RUW
GGG Stompy Crux GGG
-- Elder Dragon Highlander --
UBU
Grimgrin, Zombie HordeUBURWR
Jor Kadeen TronRWRBRU Sedris Beatdown URB
UUU Llawan, Empress of "No" UUU
WBW Vish Kal Tron WBW
GRG Thromok Token GRG
RRR Zo-Zu, Hater of Everything RRR
Unfortunately I don't have that power. I'm not an admin or even a mod, I just run this in my spare time, so anything beyond this forum would have to be a higher-up. I could always ask to see if anything like that is available, but I personally don't have those kinds of resources.
It's possible we need to add a final "development" stage to the card that involves a wider audience. Not sure how that would work though.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Comic Book Set
Archester: Frontier of Steam (A steampunk set!)
A Good Place to Start Designing
It hoses counterspells
It hoses all many card combo decks. Storm, High Tide, Elves, etc.
It hoses heavy cantrip decks. If they don't have an answer in hand, they're never going to be able to dig in time.
It hoses Stifle
It hoses X spells
It hoses discard
It slows any two card affects. Mana accels, tutors, etc.
It puts whoever is ahead on board further ahead. Addind a 3/3 increases the odds that you are ahead.
This is when its thrown into a deck randomly. When you put in decks that can abuse it, shop/tomb or decks that don't have to cast from hand... it gets silly
It is a combo card in disguise, though, so I'm partial to it.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Besides that I think it is quite a cool design, though probably a bit on the strong side. Basically what FlavorTextWins are already a bunch of reasons though most of them only come up in older formats where a 4 mana spell is of course quite questionable already.
Just the fact that every response to this is delayed makes this too good in aggro decks imo. Imagine just playing this against some sort of control or midrange, you pretty much delay sweepers, thragtusks and all that sort of stuff for a turn and you can perfectly play your creatures to unsuspend the turn after the sweeper hits coming in with haste. Of course instant removal still hits this fairly well and it isn't that big in itself so it may actually work out fine but i'm never a fan of this generic type of card being artifact. I feel 2WW or something like that would actually make it cool though.
The fact it is symmetric is very interesting and it would probably resemble thalia in terms of usage it would see.
Great design, but colorless seems wrong. If this was Time Spiral Block I would put this in an unlikely color like Black or White, not the obvious blue. In green and red it would be too good maybe.
Great in aggro. Remember that susupend puts the creature into the 'field with haste, so in terms of attacking there is absolutely no drawback. It even provides a small advantage of having the creature suspended and protected from spells.
The opponent, however will have the disadvantage of being unable to block or cast removal.
You do realize that things don't get banned in Vintage, right?
Edric | Skithiryx | Merieke | Talrand
--------------------------
Well except for pauper EDH
Garruk's Packleader | Inkfathom Witch | Gelectrode | Sigil Captain | Glider Barin | Sludge Strider | Paragon of the Ameshsa
lol what? They printed a land that stops creatures from being countered and that doesn't apply to fun cards like show and tell. Also, those lands don't have bodies
For all of your Magic art needs, check out my tumblr The Art of Magic.
This card is absolutely bonkers, especially vintage. If you don't understand why, then you simply haven't played enough magic.
But yes... not only does it hose pretty much all instants. Which... really can't happen. In the meantime while things are suspended, more spheres drop... meaning that your mox that you were going to pay 1 for next turn now costs 2 and you can't actually pay for it so it fizzles.... yeah nah brah. This card is like chalice on crack for a workshop deck.
Now I don't actually know if a workshop deck would cut anything for this though. I mean it is a deck with no draw engine, so if you don't capitalize on the 1 turn that you have between spells being casted, then you will have a threat hit the board... which really isn't that much different now except this isn't a hard lock w/ anything.
I think the card would be good and still playable if it said all artifacts, creatures and enchantments
I was the one who originally proposed this cost 6, but was downvoted to 4. In hindsight I think this is fine as it does two very important things: 1) Enters-the-battlefield-Magic no longer works, which is great, 2) It does warp the meta in interesting ways. Yes it is probably broken. Yes it would probably dominate if released. But fixing the meta is an easy problem to solve. Simply print a cycle of cheap, common creatures with activated abilities which can deal with this guy.
GWU Rafiq
RWB Zurgo
WBG Ghave
WUB Oloro
WBR Kaalia (Archived)
My Blog, currently working on series about my custom set Cazia.
Steam Trades - I play Dota 2, CS:GO, TF2, and trade cards heavily. Add me if you like.
UBRBLACK ROSE COMMANDERUBR
WURGBTrades - Looking for ABU Duals, Fetches, Ect. Have Liliana otV, Snapcaster Mages, Chrod of Calling, Alters!WURGB
Commander
Omnath, Locus of Mana
GWBUR Genju of The Realms RUBWG
Vintage: Vintage is a ridiculous format that wallows in its own brokenness. Maybe this card would be restricted, like, y'know that broken card Ponder, that is so fine.
Legacy counters: Since when is it super duper easy to resolve 4 drops against a counter deck? If you put cards in your deck that rely on interaction with the Golem, you're going to lose when the Golem is what gets FoW'ed.
Legacy Combo: Most combos have an Achille's heel for less CMC.
Aggro getting out aggro'ed by this because of the delays? It's really not that different from Standstill guys. Standstill, 2 mana 0/0 creature that locks both players down from casting spells. Golem, 4 mana 3/3 creature that locks down both players from playing spells. 2 mana for 3 power is not a bargain in legacy, if you can drop this guy and have a better board, it's your opponent's fault. I guess both cards are a ***** if you're on the draw, but card design isn't responsible for reverting first turn advantage.
And there's nothing wrong with a card like this being colorless, it doesn't fit into every deck.
That's all assuming decks don't change their mainboards at all to handle the guy. Bloodbraid Elf into Lightning Helix is absolutely hilarious, the Helix kills the Golem immediately, the Bloodbraid comes back next turn with a new Cascade. Ancient Grudge from the yard ignores the effect and removes him.
It has an interesting interaction with some borderline playable cards that get a lot better if you just suspect your opponent might drop a golem. Augur of Skulls gets pretty interesting, for one.