If you make it "As ~ is turned face up...." and take out the "you MAY "
Canon Fodder 1R
Instant
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph R
When ~ is turned face up, you may play it without paying its mana cost.
Right now the ability would go on the stack, while you have an instant in play (could you quickenvindicate it at that point? i do not care to know), and then the triggered ability resolved the controller could be like "naaa i do not want to play it" and then the instant would just sit there, in play, and make judges very upset for the rest of the game.
Might work:
Canon Fodder 1R
Instant
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph R
As ~ is turned face up, if ~ is in play, you may play it without paying its mana cost, if you do not remove it from the game.
That last bit is to stop it remaining in play if Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is in play or something
or I think this is cleaner:
Canon Fodder 1R
Instant
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph R
As ~ is turned face up, if ~ is in play, remove it from the game. Until end of turn, you may play ~ without paying its mana cost.
U could remove the "if ~ is in play" bit if you want people to play it at weird times.
Okay, so here's the thing; I've been in agreement with your version for awhile now, but somebody is insisting that this will work. So, now, why doesn't this version work?
Canon Fodder 1R
Instant
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
When ~ is turned face up, play it without paying its mana cost. If you don't, put it into your graveyard.
Morph R
Basically, why does it have to be "As..." and not "When..."?
If they said "when..." Then they would come into play and their ability would go on the stack, and then everyone would get priority (the ability to respond), AND the game would check "state based effects," like killing anything with 0 toughness. The game would see that the shapeshifters had 0 toughness and kill them BEFOR their "when...." could resolve.
In order for your morph thing to work you have to make sure that NO ONE gets priority while that instant is in the play zone, not the stack zone. (or better yet make sure its NEVER in the "in play zone" as an instant, also it would pervent stifling)
Instants can't be in play. Ever. If it said "when," it would be a trigger, and you would have the instant in play while the trigger was on the stack waiting for responses.
I'm not really sure the "as" works, either. Playing a spell is not really a discrete event that can be a replacement event. But even if you could, there are effectsthatcould prevent you from playing the card, again leaving an instant in play.
Instants can't be in play. Ever. If it said "when," it would be a trigger, and you would have the instant in play while the trigger was on the stack waiting for responses.
I'm not really sure the "as" works, either. Playing a spell is not really a discrete event that can be a replacement event. But even if you could, there are effectsthatcould prevent you from playing the card, again leaving an instant in play.
Which is why i feel
"Canon Fodder :1mana::symr:
Instant
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph
As ~ is turned face up, if ~ is in play, remove it from the game. Until end of turn, you may play ~ without paying its mana cost."
Okay, so instants can't be in play. Right. But what happens when they are? Where do they go? Do the rules send them to the graveyard unless told to do otherwise?
And again, let's say we said "When ~ is turned face up, play it without paying its mana cost. If you don't, put it in its owner's graveyard."
"When" is a trigger, so when the trigger goes on the stack, something happens. The card will go somewhere, depending on what the answer to my previous question was. But we already have cards that can be played from zones other than the hand; why can't the card be played from whatever zone it goes to? If it goes to another zone, does the trigger that causes it to be played still go off?
Okay, so instants can't be in play. Right. But what happens when they are? Where do they go? Do the rules send them to the graveyard unless told to do otherwise?
As magic is now there is no way for an instant to be in play. So there are no rules that talk about what to do when they are in play. All the rules say about it is:
-212.5d Instants can’t come into play. If an instant would come into play, it remains in its previous zone instead. -212.7d Sorceries can’t come into play. If a sorcery would come into play, it remains in its previous zone instead.
+420.x A card or token in play that is not an artifact, creature, enchantment, and land, is put into its owner’s graveyard. ta-daa
Or keeping with the current comp.
"As this is turned face up, you may play it without paying it's mana cost. Otherwise put this into it's owner's graveyard."
Okay. So nobody can get past this no-instants-or-sorceries-in-play thing, no matter what wording I put on the card. So let's try a new scenario.
My opponent controls a card like this:
Bob the Idiot 0
Legendary Creature
Morph 0
When ~ is turned face up, play this without paying its mana cost.
1/1
I have the same card, but face down. I turn it face up. The trigger goes on the stack, state-based effects are checked, and both Bobs die horrible deaths. Does the ability triggered by mine being turned face up go off, though? Or to play the spell, does it have to be "As ~ is turned face up..."?
This is at heart, the same question. My previous versions of Canon Fodder have clauses to keep them from just staying in play. They have to go somewhere. That's not an issue anymore, as I see it. I just want to know if "When ~ is turned face up..." works, or if it has to be "As ~ is turned face up...".
"When ~ is turned face up, play it without paying its mana cost. If you don't, put it in its owner's graveyard."
That is a previous quote by me, referring to a change that handles what happens if the card isn't played because of Teferi or any other such problem.
Quote from SoronTheBeast »
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pichoro Does the ability triggered by mine being turned face up go off, though?
yes, it does
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pichoro This is at heart, the same question.
its not
Why is it not?
Quote from SoronTheBeast »
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pichoro My previous versions of Canon Fodder have clauses to keep them from just staying in play.
no they do not. they say "may." also, as was pointed out, what if some one had a meddling mage naming cannon fodder?
Then it cannot be played, and it goes to the graveyard.
Quote from SoronTheBeast »
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pichoro They have to go somewhere.
why? does a land have to go somewhere?
Because people keep harping on me in this thread about then not being able to be in play. So now, it doesn't stay in play.
Now, will someone answer the question I'm really asking and stop hassling me? Please? Will "When ~ is turned face up..." work, or does it have to be "As ~ is turned face up..."?
What happens if the 'when' trigger is countered by Stifle or Trickbind? You still end up with a face up card that's an Instant in play.
Exactly! ty. I am not sure he understand how very very bad it is to have an instant in play (tapped of it just attacked) for any amount of time.
(I am almost to the point of asking this guy what he thinks happens if youquickenvindicate it with the trigger on the stack)
Angry Lightning :1mana::symr::symr:
Instant
Morph-:symr:
~ deals 3 damage to target creature and player.
When ~ turned face up it deals 3 damage to all blocking creatures. "... And both players looked at the tapped instant in wonder." Game Breaker
Instant
Draw a card. As ~ resloves it comes into play, tapped. "Well it was a lousy spell anyway."- Confused Mage
Mind Attacker :symr::symu:
Creature- Gamer Horror
At the start of your Declare Attackers Step, put ~ on the stack tapped and attacking.
2/1
Canon Fodder 1R
Instant
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
When ~ is turned face up, play it without paying its mana cost. If you don't, put it into your graveyard.
Morph R
All right. Here is a question. What happens if you turn this card fact up and put " When ~ is turned face up, play it without paying its mana cost. If you don't, put it into your graveyard." and i stifle that ability?
Here is some more questions now that i have stifled the "play this card" and "put into a graveyard" trigger:
What if you just attacked with this card? Is it tapped? Do you untap it during your untap step? Can I vindicate it?
I do not know the answer to these questions, because the answers do not exist.
Now, will someone answer the question I'm really asking and stop hassling me? Please? Will "When ~ is turned face up..." work, or does it have to be "As ~ is turned face up..."?
NO "WHEN" WILL NOT WORK! (thats what we have been saying, but i guess you wanted it more direct. This is the wording that the rules lawyers cannot say does not work: "As ~ is turned face up, remove it from the game. Until end of turn, you may play ~ without paying its mana cost." This ability cannot be stifled and makes sure the instant is never in play when state based effects are checked. Which would be bad, as we have been saying.)
If its a "As.." then it will happens right away. If it's a "When..." it will go on the stack.
In order for your morph thing to work you have to make sure that NO ONE gets priority while that instant is in the play zone, not the stack zone. (or better yet make sure its NEVER in the "in play zone" as an instant, also it would pervent stifling)
Pichoro, the heart of the issue here is that it doesn't matter what ability you give the card to handle the "instant in play issue", the fact that it relies on an ability to fix it is the source of problems because that ability can be countered or something else can happen before it resolves. Using "as" helps, but Condor points out that it is not a sure fix.
My take would be;
"As CARDNAME is turned face up, put it on the stack."
Not sure if that violates any rules (I'm a bit iffy on it and targeting) but it seems like it would get around the current issue of spells preventing you from playing it...
Thanks Kraj. I just wanted a clear and respectful answer to my real question, not questions that I'm not interested in the answer to. It helped tremendously.
Mago Sangovita - That one I know doesn't work; if you put it straight on the stack things like targeting choices never get made.
Cannon Fodder 1R
Instant
Cannon Fodder deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph
When Cannon Fodder is turned face up, you may play it without paying its mana cost.
The answers to your questions:
Quote from Pichoro »
Does this work?
No, it does not.
Quote from Pichoro »
If not, why?
'When Cannon Fodder is turned face up, you may play it without paying its mana cost.' is a triggered ability that uses the stack. You can tell because it begins with the word 'when'.
Triggered abilities can be countered by spells like Stifle, Trickbind and Voidslime. If that happens, you're left with an Instant in play. The current rules do not support Instants or Sorceries being in play, and as of yet there is no way to get an Instant or Sorcery card into play. As a safeguard, there are these rules:
Quote from Comprehensive Rules »
212.5d Instants can’t come into play. If an instant would come into play, it remains in its previous zone instead.
212.7d Sorceries can’t come into play. If a sorcery would come into play, it remains in its previous zone instead.
Even if you rendered the ability is uncounterable via some 'this can't be countered' shenanigans, you would still have to deal with Time Stop removing the triggered ability from the stack.
Quote from Pichoro »
So, now, why doesn't this version work?
Cannon Fodder 1R
Instant
Cannon Fodder deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
When Cannon Fodder is turned face up, play it without paying its mana cost. If you don't, put it into your graveyard.
Morph
This still doesn't work for the reasons detailed above. If the triggered ability is countered or removed from the stack, you're left with an Instant stranded in play, which the current rules don't support.
Quote from Pichoro »
Basically, why does it have to be "As..." and not "When..."?
'When...' indicates that the ability is triggered, and uses the stack. 'As...' indicates that the ability is static and does not use the stack.
New card in question:
Bob the Idiot
Legendary Creature
Morph
When Bob the Idiot is turned face up, play this without paying its mana cost.
1/1
Quote from Pichoro »
I have the same card, but face down. I turn it face up. The trigger goes on the stack, state-based effects are checked, and both Bobs die horrible deaths. Does the ability triggered by mine being turned face up go off, though? Or to play the spell, does it have to be 'As ~ is turned face up...'?
The ability will still go off, but you won't be able to play the spell.
Quote from Comprehensive Rules »
217.1c An object that moves from one zone to another is treated as a new object. Effects connected with its previous location will no longer affect it.
The ability won't be able to track Bob the Idiot, since the object with the triggered ability is no longer in the zone where it was when the ability was put on the stack.
Would it be so terrible if the card read:
Cannon Fodder
:1mana::symr:
Creature - Lemming
When Cannon Fodder comes into play or is turned face up, it deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph
0/0
My take would be;
"As CARDNAME is turned face up, put it on the stack."
Not sure if that violates any rules (I'm a bit iffy on it and targeting) but it seems like it would get around the current issue of spells preventing you from playing it...
I am pretty sure this wording does work, and its much more elegant than mine. GJ. (though there is no examples to show the proper wording of something like this, it works within the rules as far as i can tell)
Canon Fodder 1R
Instant
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph R
When ~ is turned face up, you may play it without paying its mana cost.
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Canon Fodder 1R
Instant
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph R
When ~ is turned face up, you may play it without paying its mana cost.
Right now the ability would go on the stack, while you have an instant in play (could you quicken vindicate it at that point? i do not care to know), and then the triggered ability resolved the controller could be like "naaa i do not want to play it" and then the instant would just sit there, in play, and make judges very upset for the rest of the game.
Might work:
Canon Fodder 1R
Instant
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph R
As ~ is turned face up, if ~ is in play, you may play it without paying its mana cost, if you do not remove it from the game.
That last bit is to stop it remaining in play if Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is in play or something
or I think this is cleaner:
Canon Fodder 1R
Instant
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph R
As ~ is turned face up, if ~ is in play, remove it from the game. Until end of turn, you may play ~ without paying its mana cost.
U could remove the "if ~ is in play" bit if you want people to play it at weird times.
Canon Fodder 1R
Instant
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
When ~ is turned face up, play it without paying its mana cost. If you don't, put it into your graveyard.
Morph R
Basically, why does it have to be "As..." and not "When..."?
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Look at: Vesuvan Shapeshifter (or clone)
If they said "when..." Then they would come into play and their ability would go on the stack, and then everyone would get priority (the ability to respond), AND the game would check "state based effects," like killing anything with 0 toughness. The game would see that the shapeshifters had 0 toughness and kill them BEFOR their "when...." could resolve.
In order for your morph thing to work you have to make sure that NO ONE gets priority while that instant is in the play zone, not the stack zone. (or better yet make sure its NEVER in the "in play zone" as an instant, also it would pervent stifling)
I'm not really sure the "as" works, either. Playing a spell is not really a discrete event that can be a replacement event. But even if you could, there are effects that could prevent you from playing the card, again leaving an instant in play.
"Canon Fodder :1mana::symr:
Instant
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph
As ~ is turned face up, if ~ is in play, remove it from the game. Until end of turn, you may play ~ without paying its mana cost."
Is the cleanest way to do it.
And again, let's say we said "When ~ is turned face up, play it without paying its mana cost. If you don't, put it in its owner's graveyard."
"When" is a trigger, so when the trigger goes on the stack, something happens. The card will go somewhere, depending on what the answer to my previous question was. But we already have cards that can be played from zones other than the hand; why can't the card be played from whatever zone it goes to? If it goes to another zone, does the trigger that causes it to be played still go off?
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212.5d Instants can't come into play. If an instant would come into play, it remains in its previous zone instead.
Thats it.
-212.5d Instants can’t come into play. If an instant would come into play, it remains in its previous zone instead.
-212.7d Sorceries can’t come into play. If a sorcery would come into play, it remains in its previous zone instead.
+420.x A card or token in play that is not an artifact, creature, enchantment, and land, is put into its owner’s graveyard.
ta-daa
Or keeping with the current comp.
"As this is turned face up, you may play it without paying it's mana cost. Otherwise put this into it's owner's graveyard."
Hey now!!!! None of that!!! (and what about planeswalker? hmmm?)
My opponent controls a card like this:
Bob the Idiot 0
Legendary Creature
Morph 0
When ~ is turned face up, play this without paying its mana cost.
1/1
I have the same card, but face down. I turn it face up. The trigger goes on the stack, state-based effects are checked, and both Bobs die horrible deaths. Does the ability triggered by mine being turned face up go off, though? Or to play the spell, does it have to be "As ~ is turned face up..."?
This is at heart, the same question. My previous versions of Canon Fodder have clauses to keep them from just staying in play. They have to go somewhere. That's not an issue anymore, as I see it. I just want to know if "When ~ is turned face up..." works, or if it has to be "As ~ is turned face up...".
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yes, it does
its not no they do not. they say "may." also, as was pointed out, what if some one had a meddling mage naming cannon fodder? why? does a land have to go somewhere? It has to be more then just "as..." you need something to stop Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir keeping it in play.
That is a previous quote by me, referring to a change that handles what happens if the card isn't played because of Teferi or any other such problem.
Why is it not?
Then it cannot be played, and it goes to the graveyard.
Because people keep harping on me in this thread about then not being able to be in play. So now, it doesn't stay in play.
Now, will someone answer the question I'm really asking and stop hassling me? Please? Will "When ~ is turned face up..." work, or does it have to be "As ~ is turned face up..."?
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(I am almost to the point of asking this guy what he thinks happens if you quicken vindicate it with the trigger on the stack)
Angry Lightning :1mana::symr::symr:
Instant
Morph-:symr:
~ deals 3 damage to target creature and player.
When ~ turned face up it deals 3 damage to all blocking creatures.
"... And both players looked at the tapped instant in wonder."
Game Breaker
Instant
Draw a card. As ~ resloves it comes into play, tapped.
"Well it was a lousy spell anyway."- Confused Mage
Mind Attacker :symr::symu:
Creature- Gamer Horror
At the start of your Declare Attackers Step, put ~ on the stack tapped and attacking.
2/1
I hope these cards show the point.
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Here is some more questions now that i have stifled the "play this card" and "put into a graveyard" trigger:
What if you just attacked with this card? Is it tapped? Do you untap it during your untap step? Can I vindicate it?
I do not know the answer to these questions, because the answers do not exist.
(Basically, make it so that if they counter it, it triggers again immediately afterwards.)
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Also I already answered this question here:
Pichoro, the heart of the issue here is that it doesn't matter what ability you give the card to handle the "instant in play issue", the fact that it relies on an ability to fix it is the source of problems because that ability can be countered or something else can happen before it resolves. Using "as" helps, but Condor points out that it is not a sure fix.
Does that answer your question?
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"As ~ is turned face up, remove it from the game. Until end of turn, you may play ~ without paying its mana cost."
I could be wrong.
"As CARDNAME is turned face up, put it on the stack."
Not sure if that violates any rules (I'm a bit iffy on it and targeting) but it seems like it would get around the current issue of spells preventing you from playing it...
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Mago Sangovita - That one I know doesn't work; if you put it straight on the stack things like targeting choices never get made.
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Cannon Fodder
1R
Instant
Cannon Fodder deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph
When Cannon Fodder is turned face up, you may play it without paying its mana cost.
The answers to your questions:
No, it does not.
'When Cannon Fodder is turned face up, you may play it without paying its mana cost.' is a triggered ability that uses the stack. You can tell because it begins with the word 'when'.
Triggered abilities can be countered by spells like Stifle, Trickbind and Voidslime. If that happens, you're left with an Instant in play. The current rules do not support Instants or Sorceries being in play, and as of yet there is no way to get an Instant or Sorcery card into play. As a safeguard, there are these rules:
Even if you rendered the ability is uncounterable via some 'this can't be countered' shenanigans, you would still have to deal with Time Stop removing the triggered ability from the stack.
This still doesn't work for the reasons detailed above. If the triggered ability is countered or removed from the stack, you're left with an Instant stranded in play, which the current rules don't support.
'When...' indicates that the ability is triggered, and uses the stack. 'As...' indicates that the ability is static and does not use the stack.
New card in question:
Bob the Idiot
Legendary Creature
Morph
When Bob the Idiot is turned face up, play this without paying its mana cost.
1/1
The ability will still go off, but you won't be able to play the spell.
The ability won't be able to track Bob the Idiot, since the object with the triggered ability is no longer in the zone where it was when the ability was put on the stack.
Would it be so terrible if the card read:
Cannon Fodder
:1mana::symr:
Creature - Lemming
When Cannon Fodder comes into play or is turned face up, it deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph
0/0
?