I've always advocated that adding a state-based effect dealing with instants and sorceries in play was an easy solution for dealing with weird interactions and the possibility of non-perms being in play.
Its one of those topics that's always met with some degree of negativity, and can spark huge arguements, but I for one have always felt like the idea of a fireball or a net or a disarming rolling mist coming out of a morph shell was too flavorful and cool to ignore. And its possible to make 0/0 creatures with morph triggers, but you lose that flavor; and its a shame when you can just drop an SBE in and go.
Of course, the real question is, what should happen when a non-perm is in play? I've always felt like they should go to the graveyard (like everything else that leaves play from an SBE), but that doesn't mesh well with some player's concepts of how morph should work on a non-perm. But my response to that was always to expand the morph rules to say that if a non-perm with morph is turned face-up, you play it without paying its mana cost, and as an action that doesn't use the stack (so the action can't be responded to, but once the spell is on the stack, it can be responded to). Otherwise, you're using the SBE to get the cards to work, which feels wrong to me. The SBE should cover difficult cases and prevent unhealthy interactions.
I'm going to stop now before I enrage a rules guru.
Would the following work for a non permanent with morph?
Morph X (You may play this face down as a 2/2 creature for 3. Turn it face up any time for its morph cost. As CARDNAME is turned face up, exile it. Then cast it without paying its mana cost.)
Or if that doesn't work, would this?
Morph X (You may play this face down as a 2/2 creature for 3. Exile it any time for its morph cost. If ~ is exiled this way, then cast it without paying its mana cost.)
Well, that would cause a functional change to permanents with morph. If you worded it that way, a creature wouldn't still be attacking if you unmorphed it in combat.
The way I've always done it is with a separate mechanic called Spellmorph. Not all the rules are set yet, but this is what I've got so far.
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What does the mechanic Spellmorph represent?
First, a look at the mechanic, with an example card:
Burst of Crystals 3G
Instant
Spellmorph 1G(You may cast this face-down as a 2/2 creature for :3mana:. You may cast it for its spellmorph cost by turning it face up.)
Put three 1/1 green Saproling creature tokens onto the battlfield.
This is basically morph for instants, sorceries, and Aura enchantments. First, some rules:
-You can only cast the spellmorph cards whenever you could normally play them.
-If you use something like Break Open on one, its controller casts it without paying its mana cost. If it can't be cast (lack of targets, etc), put it into its owner's graveyard.
-If it's hit with a blink effect like Turn to Mist, if it's not a permanent card, it remains exiled.
-Casting a spell this way does trigger a "whenever a creature leaves the battlefield" effect.
Another obstacle you need to deal with is instants in play. If a morphed instant is hit with an ability removing effect, Sudden Spoiling let's say, and then turned face up, no matter what ability you gave it to prevent it from happening you now have an instant in play. So far the best solution I've seen is to make a 0/0 creature with morph and an effect when it comes into play or is turned face up.
The 0/0 creature works rules-wise, though it doesn't quite work flavor-wise. Representing a spell that bursts out of the clay spider simply as a 0/0 creature just doesn't quite feel right.
(Some people do tweak the comprehensive rules slightly for their custom sets in order to make situations like this work. If you don't want to tweak the rules at all, then I guess there's just the 0/0 solution.)
The 0/0 creature works rules-wise, though it doesn't quite work flavor-wise. Representing a spell that bursts out of the clay spider simply as a 0/0 creature just doesn't quite feel right.
(Some people do tweak the comprehensive rules slightly for their custom sets in order to make situations like this work. If you don't want to tweak the rules at all, then I guess there's just the 0/0 solution.)
Alternately, you could have your card morph into an enchantment with a triggered ability so that it functioned like an instant.
Walrus of Fire
Enchantment
Morph
When Walrus of Fire is turned face up, sacrifice it. If you do, Walrus of Fire deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Enchantment
Morph
When Walrus of Fire is turned face up, sacrifice it. If you do, Walrus of Fire deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
There should be a reason to actually hardcast, so I think the trigger should be when it comes into play or is turned face up, but otherwise this is the best solution.
(Some people do tweak the comprehensive rules slightly for their custom sets in order to make situations like this work. If you don't want to tweak the rules at all, then I guess there's just the 0/0 solution.)
My favorite "inside-the-box" implementation of this mechanic was to exile the spell card face down and make a 2/2 creature token with an ability that let you sac it to cast the exiled card. Can't remember who came up with it, unfortunately; maybe I'll do a search later.
But my own advice is not to be afraid to tweak the comprehensive rules, so long as you're confident Wizards would tweak them in the same way. In this case, I believe all it would take is a state-based action sending any instants or sorceries on the battlefield to the graveyard, which seems like a good thing to have anyway. (There might need to be one or two slight wording changes here and there; I seem to recall that the M10 rulebook is a bit freer in the assumptions it makes than the old one. But, again, it'd be good to clean these up anyway.)
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Okay, so Ive had discussions about how you cannot put morph on instances or sorceries, even if it has an ability like "When ~ is flipped face up, put it onto the stack." because of the existance of cards such as Stifle and Trickbind, it cold not work. And I completely understand this, it is impossible to have an instant or sorcery on the field, BUT!
"As ~ is flipped face up, put it onto the stack."
or
"As ~ is flipped face up, put it onto the stack instead."
Replacement effects dont use the stack, right? So, could this work? I want Instances and Sorceries to have morph so bad!!!
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About Mindslaver rulings:
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so if i am that player do i get to sleep with his girlfriend ?
Can still result in an instant or sorcery permanent. Humble + Skirk Alarmist will do it.
Veterans of this board have had this discussion up and down again; we've seen pretty much every proposed solution and seen it shot down. If there is a way to do it, it's not going to be something as obvious as turning a "when" to an "as". Now, if you really want instants and sorceries to have morph, try making enchantments that sacrifice themselves for an effect when they enter the field or are turned face up. It's about as close as you're going to get, unless you can come up with something cleverer than anyone else has been able to.
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Well, the most common thing people do when it comes to confusing stuff like this is to actually modify the rules of the game to account for something like this. For example, to make this work, I've made a rule that states that an instant or sorcery card on the battlefield is put into the graveyard as a state-based effect if it's not cast.
I've said all along, eventually they'll make some way to put nonpermanents face down on the battlefield. And when that time comes, they'll have to make a rule to deal with them. In this case, they impromptu said face-down spells can't be turn face-up. But the cards are still revealed if some action or effect necessitates.
For the most part, that's good enough and still allows "spellmorph" that many people dream about. Basically, if you want to cast an instant or sorcery with spellmorph while it's face-down, reveal it, pay the cost, and cast it from the battlefield. (Note this doesn't count as turning it face-up, thus won't trigger abilities looking for face-up events.)
After posting this in the regular creation forum, a user directed me here. I hope you all can punch a hole in it so we can figure it out.
Liquidate 2UU
Instant (C)
Counter target spell.
Inspirit (You may cast this face down as a 2/2 creature for 3. You may exile it and cast it by paying its mana cost any time you could cast it.)
If break open is used on it, this rule would be used.
If a face down permanent with the Inspirit keyword would turn face up, its controller reveals it and leaves it face down. Abilities that trigger whenever a permanent is turned face up won't trigger.
I guess it works. Note that the second ruling wouldn't be necessary, since 701.31e already says that. All that would be necessary is moving 701.31e from the manifest specific rules to the general rules about facedown cards. Personally, I'd prefer something more like:
Liquidate2UU Instant {C}
Counter target spell.
Inspirit UU(You may cast this face down as a 2/2 creature for 3. You may reveal this face down card for its Inspirit cost. If you do, cast it without paying its mana cost.)
with the inspirit cost being separate from the mana cost.
The way I worded Inspirit to use the mana cost of the card was to alleviate some complexity that will already exist with face down cards. Players will only have to track one cost (not including the "morph" cost) and will allow cards to be balanced off of only one cost instead of two, making it easier.
I also don't really know if my wording is different than yours. I believe the exile will be necessary, as I don't believe casting a card from the battlefield is allowed.
I had forgotten about this topic! Thanks for your input!
Casting is technically allowed anywhere. It just means taking the object from where it is and moving it onto the top of the stack. The thing that can't happen is having an instant or sorcery on the battlefield. However, since the "revealed" card is still face down in game terms, it isn't an instant or sorcery, and so there isn't a rules headache as if you had actually flipped it.
Sorry about the necro, didn't realize how old the thread was, since it was still towards the top of the page.
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Its one of those topics that's always met with some degree of negativity, and can spark huge arguements, but I for one have always felt like the idea of a fireball or a net or a disarming rolling mist coming out of a morph shell was too flavorful and cool to ignore. And its possible to make 0/0 creatures with morph triggers, but you lose that flavor; and its a shame when you can just drop an SBE in and go.
Of course, the real question is, what should happen when a non-perm is in play? I've always felt like they should go to the graveyard (like everything else that leaves play from an SBE), but that doesn't mesh well with some player's concepts of how morph should work on a non-perm. But my response to that was always to expand the morph rules to say that if a non-perm with morph is turned face-up, you play it without paying its mana cost, and as an action that doesn't use the stack (so the action can't be responded to, but once the spell is on the stack, it can be responded to). Otherwise, you're using the SBE to get the cards to work, which feels wrong to me. The SBE should cover difficult cases and prevent unhealthy interactions.
I'm going to stop now before I enrage a rules guru.
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Morph X (You may play this face down as a 2/2 creature for 3. Turn it face up any time for its morph cost. As CARDNAME is turned face up, exile it. Then cast it without paying its mana cost.)
Or if that doesn't work, would this?
Morph X (You may play this face down as a 2/2 creature for 3. Exile it any time for its morph cost. If ~ is exiled this way, then cast it without paying its mana cost.)
The way I've always done it is with a separate mechanic called Spellmorph. Not all the rules are set yet, but this is what I've got so far.
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My primary question was whether the mechanic worked as worded. If necessary I'll come up with an alternative name for this type of morph.
(Some people do tweak the comprehensive rules slightly for their custom sets in order to make situations like this work. If you don't want to tweak the rules at all, then I guess there's just the 0/0 solution.)
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Alternately, you could have your card morph into an enchantment with a triggered ability so that it functioned like an instant.
Walrus of Fire
Enchantment
Morph
When Walrus of Fire is turned face up, sacrifice it. If you do, Walrus of Fire deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
There should be a reason to actually hardcast, so I think the trigger should be when it comes into play or is turned face up, but otherwise this is the best solution.
My favorite "inside-the-box" implementation of this mechanic was to exile the spell card face down and make a 2/2 creature token with an ability that let you sac it to cast the exiled card. Can't remember who came up with it, unfortunately; maybe I'll do a search later.
But my own advice is not to be afraid to tweak the comprehensive rules, so long as you're confident Wizards would tweak them in the same way. In this case, I believe all it would take is a state-based action sending any instants or sorceries on the battlefield to the graveyard, which seems like a good thing to have anyway. (There might need to be one or two slight wording changes here and there; I seem to recall that the M10 rulebook is a bit freer in the assumptions it makes than the old one. But, again, it'd be good to clean these up anyway.)
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"As ~ is flipped face up, put it onto the stack."
or
"As ~ is flipped face up, put it onto the stack instead."
Replacement effects dont use the stack, right? So, could this work? I want Instances and Sorceries to have morph so bad!!!
About Mindslaver rulings:
Veterans of this board have had this discussion up and down again; we've seen pretty much every proposed solution and seen it shot down. If there is a way to do it, it's not going to be something as obvious as turning a "when" to an "as". Now, if you really want instants and sorceries to have morph, try making enchantments that sacrifice themselves for an effect when they enter the field or are turned face up. It's about as close as you're going to get, unless you can come up with something cleverer than anyone else has been able to.
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For the most part, that's good enough and still allows "spellmorph" that many people dream about. Basically, if you want to cast an instant or sorcery with spellmorph while it's face-down, reveal it, pay the cost, and cast it from the battlefield. (Note this doesn't count as turning it face-up, thus won't trigger abilities looking for face-up events.)
........................
If break open is used on it, this rule would be used.
Liquidate 2UU
Instant {C}
Counter target spell.
Inspirit UU (You may cast this face down as a 2/2 creature for 3. You may reveal this face down card for its Inspirit cost. If you do, cast it without paying its mana cost.)
with the inspirit cost being separate from the mana cost.
I also don't really know if my wording is different than yours. I believe the exile will be necessary, as I don't believe casting a card from the battlefield is allowed.
I had forgotten about this topic! Thanks for your input!
Sorry about the necro, didn't realize how old the thread was, since it was still towards the top of the page.