Another thing - are cards in the library considered to be face down?
The rules are weird about face down things. The card removed from the game face down are "different" then cards in play face down, so i am guessing that cards in the library, if they are face down, are a "different" kind of face down. (also the physical cards might be face down, but i do not think the rules say they are as such)
Rule 504 specifically mentions the stack, in play, and phased out in regards to face-down cards, so maybe that could too.
Well now it would get stickily... let me try
Bridge from Beyond :symg::symg::symg:
Enchantment
Suspend X-:xmana: X can't be 0.
While ~ is removed from the game and is face up cards you own have morph and face down cards can't be turned face up.
If ~ would leave the removed from game zone and is face up, instead remove all face down cards on the stack in play or phased out from the game and then put ~ in its owners graveyard.
"If this would be turned face up, put it on the stack instead."
on an instant with morph?
-----
Thought Salve W
Instant
Prevents 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph 1W
If this would be turned face up, put it on the stack instead.
-----
Also, the lines on Bridge from Beyond should be
While ~ is suspended, cards you own have morph and face down cards can't be turned face up.
If ~ would leave the removed from game zone and is suspended, instead remove all face down cards on the stack, in play, or phased out from the game and then put ~ in its owners graveyard.
While ~ is suspended, cards you own have morph and face down cards can't be turned face up.
If ~ would leave the removed from game zone and is suspended, instead remove all face down cards on the stack, in play, or phased out from the game and then put ~ in its owners graveyard.
I like the first part but not the second. We have already gone over, in the above thread, alot of ways to get a card to turn face up. If your stifle the "When the last time counter is removed from this card, if it's removed from the game, play it without paying its mana cost if able. If you can't, it remains removed from the game....." It will stay removed and will not be suspended, at this point you could break open a face down instant, and we are back to square one.
While ~ is suspended, cards you own have morph and face down cards can't be turned face up.
If ~ would stop being suspended, instead remove all face down cards on the stack, in play, or phased out from the game and then put ~ in its owners graveyard.
I think this worded works too, and does not get into the problems Condor was pointing out, I believe.
Soron? If you want to make a game of this, you did not make a morph-instant. You used completely unprecedented, and really unsupportable, effects to change everything in the game so that instants without morph could act asnon-instant morphs. What you can't do is make an instant card that 1) stays an instant card and 2) functions by itself as a morph card in play.
But to critique your latest attempt, it more properly would be:
Bridge from Beyond :symg::symg::symg:
Enchantment
Suspend X-:xmana: X can't be 0.
While ~ is suspended, cards you own that aren't in play have morph, and face down permanents can't be turned face up.
As the last time counter is removed from ~ while it is suspended, remove all face down permanents, spells, and phased-out cards from the game.
(Yes, you need to define this "as" replacement effect. It's just so much shorter this way.)
Explanation: Cards never refer directly to the RFG zone, so your replacement wouldn't be done. You don't need to give spells morph. Effects will never be able to change how cards become "unsuspended," so you can take full advantage of that.
BUT: You affected not only your "instant-morphs," but every other morphed card for all (well, most, see below) players. You've (unreasonably) assumed that no Yixlid Jailer-like card will ever exist for RFG. Essentially, you changed the game.
And, there's still an existing problem, so it doesn't work in all cases. In a multiplayer game with Range of Influence and control-changing effects, a face-down instant could move outside the range of Bridge from Beyond.
What you think you've accomplished is far easier to do with more orthodox, and supportable, effects:
Crystalize <cost>
Instant
Counter target noncopy instant spell. If you counter it this way, it becomes a copy of an artifact creature card with power and toughness equal to it converted mana cost, with morph and a morph cost equal to its mana cost, and with an activated ability whose cost is "t, pay this cards mana cost" and whose effect is that spell's normal effect. Put this card into play face down, under your control.
This is unorthodox in that it uses a Primal Clay-like copy effect, but applies it before the card is put into play. It also refers to "noncopy" spells, which has obvious but unprecedented meaning. Other than that, it works fine. The card essentially is a creature card now, as long as it stays in play.
But I repeat, this is not what you set out to do, making a "morph instant." It's making an instant act as a non-instant morph.
Since we're already dancing in the realm of the theoretical:
What happens when I have in play:
Dampening Lemming W
Creature - Lemming
Ignore all replacement effects.
0/1
Yes, that's another change to the game Soron is making. One you really can't do.
Soron? If you want to make a game of this, you did not make a morph-instant. You used completely unprecedented, and really unsupportable, effects to change everything in the game so that instants without morph could act asnon-instant morphs.
I am sorry. You miss understand. I will try to restate. I am trying to get an card that has "instant" written in the type line, into play. But in doing so I am trying to not make a nonsensical game state, and use the rules as they are now. "nonsensical" means something the rules do not support as they are now, like having a tapped instant.
But to critique your latest attempt, it more properly would be:
Bridge from Beyond :symg::symg::symg:
Enchantment
Suspend X-:xmana: X can't be 0.
While ~ is suspended, cards you own that aren't in play have morph, and face down permanents can't be turned face up.
As the last time counter is removed from ~ while it is suspended, remove all face down permanents, spells, and phased-out cards from the game.
(Yes, you need to define this "as" replacement effect. It's just so much shorter this way.)
I have already address why this wording will not work.
Explanation: Cards never refer directly to the RFG zone, so your replacement wouldn't be done. You don't need to give spells morph. Effects will never be able to change how cards become "unsuspended," so you can take full advantage of that.
This is supported by the cards, but is unsupported by the rules. The rules have no such restrictions in them.
BUT: You affected not only your "instant-morphs," but every other morphed card for all (well, most, see below) players. You've (unreasonably) assumed that no Yixlid Jailer-like card will ever exist for RFG. Essentially, you changed the game.
This is talking about Future rules. When other cards are printed the comp rules will be changed, so you should not be talking about what can or might work in the future since that is a completely different system.
And, there's still an existing problem, so it doesn't work in all cases. In a multiplayer game with Range of Influence and control-changing effects, a face-down instant could move outside the range of Bridge from Beyond.
What you think you've accomplished is far easier to do with more orthodox, and supportable, effects:
Crystalize <cost>
Instant
Counter target noncopy instant spell. If you counter it this way, it becomes a copy of an artifact creature card with power and toughness equal to it converted mana cost, with morph and a morph cost equal to its mana cost, and with an activated ability whose cost is "t, pay this cards mana cost" and whose effect is that spell's normal effect. Put this card into play face down, under your control.
This is unorthodox in that it uses a Primal Clay-like copy effect, but applies it before the card is put into play. It also refers to "noncopy" spells, which has obvious but unprecedented meaning. Other than that, it works fine. The card essentially is a creature card now, as long as it stays in play.
But I repeat, this is not what you set out to do, making a "morph instant." It's making an instant act as a non-instant morph.
No. I think what you have done here IS what I set out to do. And while you did deprived me of the joy of doing it my self, you did at lest show me one way it could be done. TY for you time.
I am sorry. You miss understand. I will try to restate. I am trying to get an card that has "instant" written in the type line, into play. But in doing so I am trying to not make a nonsensical game state, and use the rules as they are now.
Yet every attempt so far, even mine, violate one of those. Mine doesn't do very severely, but it does do it. It needs an unprecedented (and therefore "nonsensical") copy effect in one zone to carry over into another zone, in a way that does break the rules.
I have already address why this wording will not work.
...
If your stifle the "When the last time counter is removed from this card, if it's removed from the game, play it without paying its mana cost if able. If you can't, it remains removed from the game....."
... and its ability is no longer functioning. It's a useless card in RFG, and all "face-down instant cards" have been cleared away. It works, because nothing in a Stifleable ability is required for it to work.
This is supported by the cards, but is unsupported by the rules.
It is "supported" by both, because of the way "suspended" is defined. A card with suspend and the counters is "suspended," while a card missing either or both is not. You've already forced the assumption that no efffect will remove the ability. So if you clean up the instants at the exact same time the card loses the last counter (and so the abilities stop functioning here, not in the trigger), everything works.
Essentially, you based your version entirely on the presence of the card in RFG. Mine is based entirely on the presence of a time counter on the card in RFG.
This is talking about Future rules.
No, it was talking about hypothetical cards, just like yours. I'm saying that it is reasonable to assume such a card could exist, and you can 't constain what cards WotC makes in the future. For example, a year ago you might have tried to do this with a card in the graveyard. Where would you be now?
I think what you have done here IS what I set out to do. And while you did deprived me of the joy of doing it my self, you did at lest show me one way it could be done. TY for you time.
Yet every attempt so far, even mine, violate one of those. Mine doesn't do very severely, but it does do it. It needs an unprecedented (and therefore "nonsensical") copy effect in one zone to carry over into another zone, in a way that does break the rules.
I do not think that unprecedented means non sensical. Before TS enchantments with tap abilities where unprecedented, but that does not mean that if i had made one it would have been non-sensical the way the rules where.
... and its ability is no longer functioning. It's a useless card in RFG, and all "face-down instant cards" have been cleared away. It works, because nothing in a Stifleable ability is required for it to work.
Again your correct. Posted right before i went to work and on the driver here i realized my error.
It is "supported" by both, because of the way "suspended" is defined. A card with suspend and the counters is "suspended," while a card missing either or both is not. You've already forced the assumption that no efffect will remove the ability. So if you clean up the instants at the exact same time the card loses the last counter (and so the abilities stop functioning here, not in the trigger), everything works.
right (expect the multi player example, as you pointed out)
No, it was talking about hypothetical cards, just like yours. I'm saying that it is reasonable to assume such a card could exist, and you can 't constain what cards WotC makes in the future. For example, a year ago you might have tried to do this with a card in the graveyard. Where would you be now?
WotC could make a card that says almost anything. I am not sure its fair to make assumptions that cards COULD exist to make things non-sensical.
For example WotC could print a instant with morph in some set. And if wizards where to print an instant with morph they would simply change rule 212.5d to read: "An instant in play is put into its owner's graveyard, this is a state based effect, see rule 420.5o." And then make the corresponding rule. (or do something of that nature)
I am sorry. I did not know it did, which ground rule? I think if you said:
Crystalize <cost>
Instant
Counter target noncopy instant spell. If you counter it this way, put it into play face down, under your control. It becomes a copy of an artifact creature card with power and toughness equal to it converted mana cost, with morph and a morph cost equal to its mana cost, and with an activated ability whose cost is ", pay this cards mana cost" and whose effect is that spell's normal effect.
The spell can enter play because of the golden rule, as you pointed out in the other thread. And as soon as it does it becomes a creature. And thus does not cause any further rules problems. (hopefully) Also the copying effect does not need to carry from one zone to the next.
I do not think that unprecedented means non sensical.
Depends on how unprecedented, and why it is unprecedenteed. It has always been possible to tap enchantments. For not quite as long, it has been possible for "pure" enchantments. That was not a "nonsensical" addition. What you are proposing is, because it directly violates specific rules, for no good reason (i.e., "makes no sense") other than "I wanted to see if I could do it."
WotC could make a card that says almost anything.
No, they can't. There are certain limitiations - and some of those limitations are why UN sets exists. To have fun breaking them. For example, "real" Magic will never use fractions for damage, power or mana. It also will never have land cards on the stack, or instant cards in play. UN sets won't do the latter, either.
I am sorry. I did not know it did, which ground rule? ... The spell can enter play because of the golden rule, as you pointed out in the other thread. And as soon as it does it becomes a creature. And thus does not cause any further rules problems. (hopefully) Also the copying effect does not need to carry from one zone to the next.
Did you read anything? It changes into a "creature card" first because the "Golden Rule" cannot let it get put into play otherwise. It then needs a minor addition to the rules, to allow an effect on a non-permanent card to follow that card into play. It does not work now, but it is the closest you will probably get.
Depends on how unprecedented, and why it is unprecedenteed. It has always been possible to tap enchantments. For not quite as long, it has been possible for "pure" enchantments. That was not a "nonsensical" addition. What you are proposing is, because it directly violates specific rules, for no good reason (i.e., "makes no sense") other than "I wanted to see if I could do it."
"I wanted to see if I could do it." seems to be more or less the design concept behind TS.
It changes into a "creature card" first because the "Golden Rule" cannot let it get put into play otherwise. It then needs a minor addition to the rules, to allow an effect on a non-permanent card to follow that card into play. It does not work now, but it is the closest you will probably get.
could, one its in play, be changed back into a creature?
I understand that you know more than me, and that i will never be a rules guru. I am just trying to get clarification.
Don't the time counters come off? I guess you could argue they don't, but I was assuming they did. (Note that this wouldn't let you play a suspended card, so it has never come up.)
It's a metaphysical question: counters aren't as good documented as tokens regarding their behaviour, except that they do not change zones
They are well-enough documented; it's just people misunderstand "objects." A counter is put of the object, not the card. When the card changes zones, it becomes a new object. One that doesn't have counters.
it's not as much removing the last counter
It is as much "removing the last counter" as destroying a Grafted Wargear is "unattaching it." Which is how it is ruled.
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Time and Tide to get the morph back into play, then Break Open.
Done.
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Yes!
:banana::dance::bunny:
MY DANCING MINIONS! YES!
Is there even a precedent for a card that reaches across all zones, including the stack and phase-ville?
Probably not.
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Another thing - are cards in the library considered to be face down?
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Bridge from Beyond :symg::symg::symg:
Enchantment
Suspend X-:xmana: X can't be 0.
While ~ is removed from the game and is face up cards you own have morph and face down cards can't be turned face up.
If ~ would leave the removed from game zone and is face up, instead remove all face down cards on the stack in play or phased out from the game and then put ~ in its owners graveyard.
Still does not seem that bad, wordy wise.
Already accounted for by the rules.
"If this would be turned face up, put it on the stack instead."
on an instant with morph?
-----
Thought Salve W
Instant
Prevents 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph 1W
If this would be turned face up, put it on the stack instead.
-----
Also, the lines on Bridge from Beyond should be
While ~ is suspended, cards you own have morph and face down cards can't be turned face up.
If ~ would leave the removed from game zone and is suspended, instead remove all face down cards on the stack, in play, or phased out from the game and then put ~ in its owners graveyard.
What happens when I have in play:
Dampening Lemming
W
Creature - Lemming
Ignore all replacement effects.
0/1
Some other posters have created cards which generate 'can't leave play' effects. Would your theoretical card be able to handle such effects?
By exploring an area of design space like this, you may inadvertantly be hampering the exploration of design space elsewhere.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=86311
I like the first part but not the second. We have already gone over, in the above thread, alot of ways to get a card to turn face up. If your stifle the "When the last time counter is removed from this card, if it's removed from the game, play it without paying its mana cost if able. If you can't, it remains removed from the game....." It will stay removed and will not be suspended, at this point you could break open a face down instant, and we are back to square one.
While ~ is suspended, cards you own have morph and face down cards can't be turned face up.
If ~ would stop being suspended, instead remove all face down cards on the stack, in play, or phased out from the game and then put ~ in its owners graveyard.
I think this worded works too, and does not get into the problems Condor was pointing out, I believe.
But to critique your latest attempt, it more properly would be:
(Yes, you need to define this "as" replacement effect. It's just so much shorter this way.)
Explanation: Cards never refer directly to the RFG zone, so your replacement wouldn't be done. You don't need to give spells morph. Effects will never be able to change how cards become "unsuspended," so you can take full advantage of that.
BUT: You affected not only your "instant-morphs," but every other morphed card for all (well, most, see below) players. You've (unreasonably) assumed that no Yixlid Jailer-like card will ever exist for RFG. Essentially, you changed the game.
And, there's still an existing problem, so it doesn't work in all cases. In a multiplayer game with Range of Influence and control-changing effects, a face-down instant could move outside the range of Bridge from Beyond.
What you think you've accomplished is far easier to do with more orthodox, and supportable, effects:
This is unorthodox in that it uses a Primal Clay-like copy effect, but applies it before the card is put into play. It also refers to "noncopy" spells, which has obvious but unprecedented meaning. Other than that, it works fine. The card essentially is a creature card now, as long as it stays in play.
But I repeat, this is not what you set out to do, making a "morph instant." It's making an instant act as a non-instant morph.
I have already address why this wording will not work.
This is supported by the cards, but is unsupported by the rules. The rules have no such restrictions in them.
This is talking about Future rules. When other cards are printed the comp rules will be changed, so you should not be talking about what can or might work in the future since that is a completely different system.
Of course, you are 100% correct.
No. I think what you have done here IS what I set out to do. And while you did deprived me of the joy of doing it my self, you did at lest show me one way it could be done. TY for you time.
Yet every attempt so far, even mine, violate one of those. Mine doesn't do very severely, but it does do it. It needs an unprecedented (and therefore "nonsensical") copy effect in one zone to carry over into another zone, in a way that does break the rules.
... and its ability is no longer functioning. It's a useless card in RFG, and all "face-down instant cards" have been cleared away. It works, because nothing in a Stifleable ability is required for it to work.
It is "supported" by both, because of the way "suspended" is defined. A card with suspend and the counters is "suspended," while a card missing either or both is not. You've already forced the assumption that no efffect will remove the ability. So if you clean up the instants at the exact same time the card loses the last counter (and so the abilities stop functioning here, not in the trigger), everything works.
Essentially, you based your version entirely on the presence of the card in RFG. Mine is based entirely on the presence of a time counter on the card in RFG.
No, it was talking about hypothetical cards, just like yours. I'm saying that it is reasonable to assume such a card could exist, and you can 't constain what cards WotC makes in the future. For example, a year ago you might have tried to do this with a card in the graveyard. Where would you be now?
Except, it violated your ground rules.
Again your correct. Posted right before i went to work and on the driver here i realized my error.
right (expect the multi player example, as you pointed out)
WotC could make a card that says almost anything. I am not sure its fair to make assumptions that cards COULD exist to make things non-sensical.
For example WotC could print a instant with morph in some set. And if wizards where to print an instant with morph they would simply change rule 212.5d to read: "An instant in play is put into its owner's graveyard, this is a state based effect, see rule 420.5o." And then make the corresponding rule. (or do something of that nature)
I am sorry. I did not know it did, which ground rule? I think if you said:
Crystalize <cost>
Instant
Counter target noncopy instant spell. If you counter it this way, put it into play face down, under your control. It becomes a copy of an artifact creature card with power and toughness equal to it converted mana cost, with morph and a morph cost equal to its mana cost, and with an activated ability whose cost is ", pay this cards mana cost" and whose effect is that spell's normal effect.
The spell can enter play because of the golden rule, as you pointed out in the other thread. And as soon as it does it becomes a creature. And thus does not cause any further rules problems. (hopefully) Also the copying effect does not need to carry from one zone to the next.
Depends on how unprecedented, and why it is unprecedenteed. It has always been possible to tap enchantments. For not quite as long, it has been possible for "pure" enchantments. That was not a "nonsensical" addition. What you are proposing is, because it directly violates specific rules, for no good reason (i.e., "makes no sense") other than "I wanted to see if I could do it."
No, they can't. There are certain limitiations - and some of those limitations are why UN sets exists. To have fun breaking them. For example, "real" Magic will never use fractions for damage, power or mana. It also will never have land cards on the stack, or instant cards in play. UN sets won't do the latter, either.
Did you read anything? It changes into a "creature card" first because the "Golden Rule" cannot let it get put into play otherwise. It then needs a minor addition to the rules, to allow an effect on a non-permanent card to follow that card into play. It does not work now, but it is the closest you will probably get.
Since they, if fact, make the rules. By definition they can.
yes could, one its in play, be changed back into a creature?
I understand that you know more than me, and that i will never be a rules guru. I am just trying to get clarification.
Pull from Eternity?
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Don't the time counters come off? I guess you could argue they don't, but I was assuming they did. (Note that this wouldn't let you play a suspended card, so it has never come up.)
They are well-enough documented; it's just people misunderstand "objects." A counter is put of the object, not the card. When the card changes zones, it becomes a new object. One that doesn't have counters.
It is as much "removing the last counter" as destroying a Grafted Wargear is "unattaching it." Which is how it is ruled.