The game state has to be able to know what is on the bottom side, otherwise you would never be able to activate the Morph ability.
1) The only thing "the morph ability" allows you to do, is play a card face-down for 3 mana.
2) It is never "activated."
3) The way you turn a face-down card face-up, is to "show all players what the permanent's morph cost will be when the [morph] effect ends, pay that cost, then turn the permanent face up." (quoted from rule 502.26d)
So no, the game does not have to "be able to know what is on the bottom side." And in fact, it quite specifically avoids it. FOR THE VERY REASONS I'VE BEEN GIVING YOU.
[Edit] Maybe you've missed this official ruling for Sudden Spoiling?
9/25/2006 If a face-down creature is affected by Sudden Spoiling, it won’t be able to be turned face up for its morph cost. If some other effect turns it face up, it will remain a 0/2 creature with no abilities until the turn ends. Its "When this creature turns face up" or "As this creature turns face up" abilities won't work.
So why does Sudden Spoiling even effect what is on the underside of the card if the game rules do not see it?
Why does a Clone copying a face down creature have the ability to be turned face up?
The only reason these work is because what is on the underside is seen by the rules. The "reveal" part of the rules on Morph are to cover their bases, so that once the cost has been paid and the card is turned up there is no room for argument on said cost.
So why does Sudden Spoiling even effect what is on the underside of the card if the game rules do not see it?
Simple answer: IT DOESN'T. What is on the underside has no impact on the game whatsoever. It doesn't exist.
Why does a Clone copying a face down creature have the ability to be turned face up?
Simple answer: IT DOESN'T. That Clone is a (face up) 2/2 vanilla creature, and will remain one. You are wrong on many fronts. Please stop trying to make up reasons for things that don't happen, and that you don't understand.
I am sure I saw something in a Cranial Insertion about this. The interaction was what happens when a Vesuvan Shapeshifter copies a face down creature.
And I can't reply to it, unless you quote it. But I'm sure you misinterpreted it. Vesuvan Shapehifter has morph itself, so can be turned up by showing its own morph cost. (Besides, if you turn it face-down, the copy effect ends.)
502.72 Living Spell
502.72a Living Spell is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the card with Living Spell is in play. The second is a triggered ability that functions when the first ability is applied. "Living Spell" means "If this object is in play, remove it from the game." and "When this card is removed from the game this way, its owner may play it without paying its mana cost. If that player doesn't, he or she puts this card into his or her graveyard."
502.72b Playing a spell using its Living Spell ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h.
Walking ShockerR
Instant
Morph 1
Living Spell
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
No. Sudden Spoiling + Walking Shock = Instant in play.
you know what... looking back at this i think I already tried this wording way in the beginning.... sigh........ I guess I am bad at learning.
For some reason I thought sudden spoiling would keep it a 0/2 CREATURE until it wore off, and then it would be get the ability and was in play so it would remove itself.
Is there something I'm missing from the posts here?
Quote from Comp. Rules #504.2 »
504.2. Face-down spells on the stack, face-down permanents in play, and face-down cards in the phased-out zone have no characteristics other than those listed by the ability or rules that allowed the card, spell, or permanent to be turned face down. [...] Objects that are played face down are turned face down before they are put onto the stack, so effects that care about the characteristics of a spell will see only the face-down spell's characteristics. Any effects or prohibitions that would apply to playing an object with these characteristics (and not the face-up object's characteristics) are applied to playing this object.
Quote from Comp. Rules #504.5 »
504.5. As a face-down permanent is turned face up, its copiable values revert to its normal copiable values. Any effects that have been applied to the face-down permanent still apply to the face-up permanent. Any abilities relating to the permanent coming into play don't trigger and don't have any effect, because the permanent has already come into play.
9/25/2006 If a face-down creature is affected by Sudden Spoiling, it won’t be able to be turned face up for its morph cost. If some other effect turns it face up, it will remain a 0/2 creature with no abilities until the turn ends. Its "When this creature turns face up" or "As this creature turns face up" abilities won't work.
So... How about:
Spellcraft (If this would be turned face up, remove it from the game face up instead. Then you may play it without paying its mana cost. Otherwise, put it into its owner's graveyard.)
Replacement effects still apply, right? Or maybe "If a spell or ability would cause this to be turned face up..." Either way.
Wait...that still doesn't work...
Okay, I've got it...
Supertype.
It's not an ability so it can't be Spoiled.
Incarnate [instant or sorcery]
And then you could add in rules about how incarnate spells can be "in play" for the .00001 seconds that they count as "in play" before being RFG'd and played as discussed earlier. (My first idea was "living" except that it looks weird with protection... protection from living?)
Spellcraft (If this would be turned face up, remove it from the game face up instead. Then you may play it without paying its mana cost. Otherwise, put it into its owner's graveyard.)
Replacement effects still apply, right? Or maybe "If a spell or ability would cause this to be turned face up..." Either way.
No. Sudden Spoiling + Walking Shock = Instant in play.
Ok I am going to go out on a limb, again. Sudden Spoiling sets up a temporary effect saying that all creatures are 0/2 and lose all abilities until end of turn.
Lets say, hypothetically there was an instant in play and it was hit with a sudden spoiling. If it is not a 0/2 creature until end of turn then the sudden spoiling effect ends.
212.1b. When an object’s type changes, the new type(s) replaces any existing types. Counters, effects, and damage affecting the object remain with it, even if they are meaningless to the new type. Similarly, when one or more of an object’s subtypes changes, the new subtype(s) replaces any existing subtypes from the appropriate set (creature types, land types, artifact types, enchantment types, or spell types). If an object’s type is removed, the subtypes correlated with that type will remain if they are also the subtypes of a type the object currently has; otherwise, they are also removed for the entire time the object’s type is removed. Removing an object’s subtype doesn’t affect its types at all.
If an object’s type is removed by a continuous effect, the subtypes correlated with that type will remainexist at higher layers if they are also the subtypes of a type the object currently has at that point in the layers; otherwise, they are also removed for the entire timeall higher layers, because the object’s type is removed in them.
I would think that when the card is flipped up, sudden spoiling+ break open, it would be seen as an instant, at which time all of the sudden spoiling effect would end, and its "living spell" ability would come online, removing it from the game. Condor if I am miss-quoting you please let me know.
Now condor has already said (so he/she does not have to repeat him/herself it strikes me i do not know condor's gender)
Only if it has its abilities. That, and the fact that "is in play" is not an event so it can't be replaced, make this not work.
But there are "if" statements in magic that are NOT replacement effects. Lim's ability comes to mind, as does rule 212.5d. I purpose that this If statement on Living Spell is NOT a replacement effect, but a static ABILITY which removes it from play IF its in play.
[edit]: Oh Shoot.... Yeah I am still wrong the sudden Spoiling effect would still removed the abilities & not keep it a guy..... Gosh Darn Heck...... I need to work on my ability to read it seems.......
Yeah, my post was a train-of-thought post... so I figured out why an ability just won't work. I don't like the reason, but it seems to be the end of the road there.
So... what about the supertype idea?
Walking Shocker
Incarnate Instant (If this is in play, remove it from the game. You may play it without paying its mana cost. If you do not, put it into its owner's graveyard.) CARDNAME deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph :1mana::symr:
[Edit:Half Snarthed] Valros: The problem with your such design is the ability still needs to trigger, and while triggering it would be an instant in play which is the no-no we're trying to avoid.
Ok I have to chime in. I'm sorry Condor, I know you'll probably kill me for bringing it up again.
Now I suppose this doesn't quite have the same feel as having instant in the type line, but just as a thought question what about making it a "creature" with a static ability that made it an instant when not in play?
Living Shock - 1R
Creature
Morph - R
Living Shock is an instant while it's not in play.
Whenever Living Shock is in play, remove it from the game. You may play it without paying it's mana cost. If you don't, put it into it's owner's graveyard.
Living Shock deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
I'm sure there are formating errors. But in theory would that work? I figure even with all of the abilities gone via sudden shock it will just remain a creature until it triggers and is removed from the game, but then again would it have to have a base power/toughness?
I think this functions the same as the other cards that have been trying to be created on this thread, it's just formatted a little different.
What most people overlook is that the ability "morph" isn't what gets used to turn carfds face up. It is a rule of the game. That rule looks for the morph cost a permanent will have once it gets turned up. But the permanent does not have it when the action is taken.
Being face down removes the supertypes from the permanent.
Yeah, but Sudden Spoiling doesn't remove supertypes, so you could use a supertype to tweak to the "Nonpermanents in play make the game explode" issue, right?
If Humility effects didn't exist we could just make a bunch of "As CARDNAME is turned face up..." abilities and have done with it.
Or, given that you said that morph is a rule of the game, not an ability... why not make an alternate morph...?
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Yeah, but Sudden Spoiling doesn't remove supertypes, so you could use a supertype to tweak to the "Nonpermanents in play make the game explode" issue, right?
Oh man! Right I seed something like that before, but I forgot it(well about new state based effects anyway which is what supertypes do).... What if my living spell rule was a SUPER-TYPE?
420.5 The state-based effects are as follows:
...
420.5o If a object with LivingSpell is is in play, remove it from the game. If you do, that turn its owner may play it without paying its mana cost. Playing a spell using its LivingSpell ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h. This is called the "living spell rule."
Walking Shocker
LivingSpell Instant
Morph R
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
I am almost sure that works....
(You gave me the idea to make it a SUPERTYPE not just a new state based effect... you're the man Valros!)
It seems to me that the easiest way to accomplish what you're setting out to do here is to change the comp rules. "Whenever an instant or sorcery card or token is in play, as a SBE, it's put into its owner's graveyard." Objections? (I'm sure there are legion, but I can't think of them.)
Sure, lots of thengs canm be done if you change the game into a different game. But this forum is about how thingas work within the framework of the existing rules. And some things just are not possible in that framework.
Sure, lots of thengs canm be done if you change the game into a different game. But this forum is about how thingas work within the framework of the existing rules. And some things just are not possible in that framework.
I like your spelling errors to prove your point.
BUT on this forums people make up key words all the time. I do not think it would be that big of deal to make up a super type. Now I know that a keyword is basically a shorten was of saying "when bal bal rules text that is to long for this card or that I do not want to have to write a lot" while a supertype would be editing the rules of the game itself. (though a lot of key word ACTIONS are more or less an edit to the rules)
Honestly that's a different debate. I know this might go against your principles Condor, but could you tell me if the rule 420.5o would be all that would be needed to allow walking shocker to "work?"
420.5 The state-based effects are as follows:
...
420.5o If a object with LivingSpell is is in play, remove it from the game. If you do, that turn its owner may play it without paying its mana cost. Playing a spell using its LivingSpell ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h. This is called the "living spell rule."
Creating a new keyword, planeswalkers, just about anything we do in this forum "changes the game into a different game". I've experimented with non-permanent morph and instants/sorceries that can exist in play in some form, and I've always worked under the assumption that if something like that were to be created, there would be minor (possibly major) rules tweaks that would be necessary. It's not a question of making it a different game, it's a question of putting a concept out there and finding the best/most elegant way of resolving the obstacles that rise up to obstruct the concept.
To me, a supertype carries more baggage/concern than a change in the way we interpret a game state (instant/sorcery in play), and would create more confusion in general.
Sorry; I'm using a borrowed laptop with different key spacing than I am used to, and (for the same reason) I don't have a lot of time to proofread. So there will be errors.
BUT on this forums people make up key words all the time.
You are thinking of one forum up. Here, thay ask for rulings on how things they make up would actually work. There would be no point in asking for rulings if every ability did what its creator wanted, simply because he wanted it. There have to be some guidelines, and those are the existing CompRules.
You can even add rules. You just can't assume they will change at your whim.
I'm also answering tersely, because I've answered all of these questions before. One absolute is that no instant card will ever, ever, be in play. Not even for the time it takes for an SBE to remove it. There are other ways, using tokens, to accomplish the ends you want, that do not involve instants in play. Why not use them?
Sorry; I'm using a borrowed laptop with different key spacing than I am used to, and (for the same reason) I don't have a lot of time to proofread. So there will be errors.
I was not being sarcastic(hell i cannot spell to save my immortal soul). You where talking about how people could change hard and fast rules, like the rules of spelling for example, but that it would not really make sense(while it could still be understood). Your errors, I thought, where there to illustrate the point.
I'm also answering tersely, because I've answered all of these questions before. One absolute is that no instant card will ever, ever, be in play. Not even for the time it takes for an SBE to remove it.
I know you where going to say that. But, honestly Condor, the rules do not say an instant cannot BE in play. Just that it cannot COME INTO play. And we all know that something can turned into something else once it is in play. Also Kraj more or less said he would not unlock my "instant with morph" thread(or let me make more without a warning/infraction), one forum up, unless I was able to get you to say that they worked. So I am asking YOU Condor, does Living Shocker work? With the edit to the comp rules, rule 420.5o "the living spell rule."
Rules have to have a certain format. You can't say, in a rule, "XXX can't exist." You have to give a recourse, in cause it would try to exist somehow. (Which is why SBE's exist, really.) Or, just prevent it from happening in any way.
The underlying principle here is that an instant can't be in play. But stating that in a a rule would be pointless. So, instead, the rules and cards are structured so that it can't happen. The rules stop it from happening directly, and there is an unwritten (because there is no need to write it) design constraint that no card will ever allow it to happen.
A good example is in the the spoilers for Lorwyn. The "evoke" spells could have been like modal spells; instants in one option, creatures in another. It woul dhave been much simpler. They aren't that way, because they can't be.
I'm sorry you don't like acknowledging these realities, but they are realities.
You are thinking of one forum up. Here, thay ask for rulings on how things they make up would actually work. There would be no point in asking for rulings if every ability did what its creator wanted, simply because he wanted it. There have to be some guidelines, and those are the existing CompRules.
This is the Custom Card Rulings sub-forum, not the Magic Rulings sub-forum. This is where people ask for (1) rulings on whether or not their custom cards work, and, if they don't work, then (2) help on making them work.
You can even add rules. You just can't assume they will change at your whim.
That is all that needs to be done to solve the whole Humility-Break Open debacle
420.5o If non-permanent card is in play, put it into its owners' graveyard.
I'm also answering tersely, because I've answered all of these questions before. One absolute is that no instant card will ever, ever, be in play. Not even for the time it takes for an SBE to remove it. There are other ways, using tokens, to accomplish the ends you want, that do not involve instants in play. Why not use them?
If you don't want to acknowledge that rules could be added or modified to fix the problems and you claim that there are other ways of accomplishing what he wants, why don't you show him how it should be done to fit inside the current rules instead of just obstinately shooting his idea down. He is obviously going to just keep asking for help until someone gives it to him.
If you don't want to acknowledge that rules could be added or modified to fix the problems and you claim that there are other ways of accomplishing what he wants, why don't you show him how it should be done to fit inside the current rules instead of just obstinately shooting his idea down. He is obviously going to just keep asking for help until someone gives it to him.
To be fair to Condor there are about 2-3 examples of how cards like this could work throughout this thread. There is even a post I made here, with examples of how a card could do what I would want it to. The way the rules are written now there is no NEED for an instant with morph. There are other legal ways to do the same thing (or close enough to not make a difference)
BUT the thing is people will make an "instant with morph" thread ever so often, and someone will tell them they cannot do it, and they will ask why, and that thread will be sent to this thread(which they will not read/understand), and condor will have to repeat him/her self. I would like to beable to tell those people "just add this to your card." They will ask why(without really wanting to know why or to read rules), and you can say "it means this and it will make your card work," and most likly they will just except it.
I know I am being unreasonably stubborn on this issue. I do not like a "impossible problem" I think if you attack something from enough angles you will get the answer. But the one thing I have not been able to "solve" is people. If condor will always say:
The underlying principle here is that an instant can't be in play. But stating that in a a rule would be pointless. So, instead, the rules and cards are structured so that it can't happen. The rules stop it from happening directly, and there is an unwritten (because there is no need to write it) design constraint that no card will ever allow it to happen.
and there is nothing I can post to change that, then that is that. Kraj will not let me post any more non-permanent cards with morph unless I can get Condor to say:
Quote from Sutherlands »
All you have to do is add that an instant goes to the graveyard as a SBE.
So that is that. If some other way to solve this problem comes to me I will come back to this thread and state it, but as of now I am out of ideas, agian.
On a side note I would love to have a conversation with Condor for real someday. I am much better at those.
BUT the thing is people will make an "instant with morph" thread ever so often, and someone will tell them they cannot do it, and they will ask why, and that thread will be sent to this thread(which they will not read/understand), and condor will have to repeat him/her self.
I have seen several threads before with this same very common idea of creating instants/sorceries with morph, which is why Condor should post how this idea should be done correctly within the rules instead of just repeating that it is wrong. If "there are other ways, using tokens, to accomplish the ends you want, that do not involve instants in play", what are they?
I just get frustrated when Condor hands down a decree that a custom card or mechanic doesn't work, yet doesn't make any attempt at all to suggest ways to fix it and make it work.
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1) The only thing "the morph ability" allows you to do, is play a card face-down for 3 mana.
2) It is never "activated."
3) The way you turn a face-down card face-up, is to "show all players what the permanent's morph cost will be when the [morph] effect ends, pay that cost, then turn the permanent face up." (quoted from rule 502.26d)
So no, the game does not have to "be able to know what is on the bottom side." And in fact, it quite specifically avoids it. FOR THE VERY REASONS I'VE BEEN GIVING YOU.
[Edit] Maybe you've missed this official ruling for Sudden Spoiling?
Why does a Clone copying a face down creature have the ability to be turned face up?
The only reason these work is because what is on the underside is seen by the rules. The "reveal" part of the rules on Morph are to cover their bases, so that once the cost has been paid and the card is turned up there is no room for argument on said cost.
Simple answer: IT DOESN'T. What is on the underside has no impact on the game whatsoever. It doesn't exist.
Simple answer: IT DOESN'T. That Clone is a (face up) 2/2 vanilla creature, and will remain one. You are wrong on many fronts. Please stop trying to make up reasons for things that don't happen, and that you don't understand.
And I can't reply to it, unless you quote it. But I'm sure you misinterpreted it. Vesuvan Shapehifter has morph itself, so can be turned up by showing its own morph cost. (Besides, if you turn it face-down, the copy effect ends.)
502.72a Living Spell is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the card with Living Spell is in play. The second is a triggered ability that functions when the first ability is applied. "Living Spell" means "If this object is in play, remove it from the game." and "When this card is removed from the game this way, its owner may play it without paying its mana cost. If that player doesn't, he or she puts this card into his or her graveyard."
502.72b Playing a spell using its Living Spell ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h.
Walking Shocker R
Instant
Morph 1
Living Spell
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
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For some reason I thought sudden spoiling would keep it a 0/2 CREATURE until it wore off, and then it would be get the ability and was in play so it would remove itself.
So... How about:
Spellcraft (If this would be turned face up, remove it from the game face up instead. Then you may play it without paying its mana cost. Otherwise, put it into its owner's graveyard.)
Replacement effects still apply, right? Or maybe "If a spell or ability would cause this to be turned face up..." Either way.
Wait...that still doesn't work...
Okay, I've got it...
Supertype.
It's not an ability so it can't be Spoiled.
Incarnate [instant or sorcery]
And then you could add in rules about how incarnate spells can be "in play" for the .00001 seconds that they count as "in play" before being RFG'd and played as discussed earlier. (My first idea was "living" except that it looks weird with protection... protection from living?)
Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
Ok I am going to go out on a limb, again. Sudden Spoiling sets up a temporary effect saying that all creatures are 0/2 and lose all abilities until end of turn.
Lets say, hypothetically there was an instant in play and it was hit with a sudden spoiling. If it is not a 0/2 creature until end of turn then the sudden spoiling effect ends.
212.1b. When an object’s type changes, the new type(s) replaces any existing types. Counters, effects, and damage affecting the object remain with it, even if they are meaningless to the new type. Similarly, when one or more of an object’s subtypes changes, the new subtype(s) replaces any existing subtypes from the appropriate set (creature types, land types, artifact types, enchantment types, or spell types). If an object’s type is removed, the subtypes correlated with that type will remain if they are also the subtypes of a type the object currently has; otherwise, they are also removed for the entire time the object’s type is removed. Removing an object’s subtype doesn’t affect its types at all.
As condor explains this rule means:
I would think that when the card is flipped up, sudden spoiling+ break open, it would be seen as an instant, at which time all of the sudden spoiling effect would end, and its "living spell" ability would come online, removing it from the game. Condor if I am miss-quoting you please let me know.
Now condor has already said (so he/she does not have to repeat him/herself it strikes me i do not know condor's gender)
But there are "if" statements in magic that are NOT replacement effects. Lim's ability comes to mind, as does rule 212.5d. I purpose that this If statement on Living Spell is NOT a replacement effect, but a static ABILITY which removes it from play IF its in play.
[edit]: Oh Shoot.... Yeah I am still wrong the sudden Spoiling effect would still removed the abilities & not keep it a guy..... Gosh Darn Heck...... I need to work on my ability to read it seems.......
So... what about the supertype idea?
Walking Shocker
Incarnate Instant
(If this is in play, remove it from the game. You may play it without paying its mana cost. If you do not, put it into its owner's graveyard.)
CARDNAME deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Morph :1mana::symr:
Morph :1mana::symr: = Sudden Shock?
Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
Ok I have to chime in. I'm sorry Condor, I know you'll probably kill me for bringing it up again.
Now I suppose this doesn't quite have the same feel as having instant in the type line, but just as a thought question what about making it a "creature" with a static ability that made it an instant when not in play?
I'm sure there are formating errors. But in theory would that work? I figure even with all of the abilities gone via sudden shock it will just remain a creature until it triggers and is removed from the game, but then again would it have to have a base power/toughness?
I think this functions the same as the other cards that have been trying to be created on this thread, it's just formatted a little different.
My Altered Art Gallery
Any that exist, yes. Yours does not.
Being face down removes the supertypes from the permanent.
Yeah, but Sudden Spoiling doesn't remove supertypes, so you could use a supertype to tweak to the "Nonpermanents in play make the game explode" issue, right?
If Humility effects didn't exist we could just make a bunch of "As CARDNAME is turned face up..." abilities and have done with it.
Or, given that you said that morph is a rule of the game, not an ability... why not make an alternate morph...?
Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
Oh man! Right I seed something like that before, but I forgot it(well about new state based effects anyway which is what supertypes do).... What if my living spell rule was a SUPER-TYPE?
420.5 The state-based effects are as follows:
...
420.5o If a object with LivingSpell is is in play, remove it from the game. If you do, that turn its owner may play it without paying its mana cost. Playing a spell using its LivingSpell ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h. This is called the "living spell rule."
Walking Shocker
LivingSpell Instant
Morph R
~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
I am almost sure that works....
(You gave me the idea to make it a SUPERTYPE not just a new state based effect... you're the man Valros!)
We already tryed the "As ~ is turned face up" does not work for lots o reasons it seems, not just because of humility and what not.
BUT on this forums people make up key words all the time. I do not think it would be that big of deal to make up a super type. Now I know that a keyword is basically a shorten was of saying "when bal bal rules text that is to long for this card or that I do not want to have to write a lot" while a supertype would be editing the rules of the game itself. (though a lot of key word ACTIONS are more or less an edit to the rules)
Honestly that's a different debate. I know this might go against your principles Condor, but could you tell me if the rule 420.5o would be all that would be needed to allow walking shocker to "work?"
420.5 The state-based effects are as follows:
...
420.5o If a object with LivingSpell is is in play, remove it from the game. If you do, that turn its owner may play it without paying its mana cost. Playing a spell using its LivingSpell ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f-h. This is called the "living spell rule."
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To me, a supertype carries more baggage/concern than a change in the way we interpret a game state (instant/sorcery in play), and would create more confusion in general.
Edit:
Exactly (bolded part added on my part).
Sorry; I'm using a borrowed laptop with different key spacing than I am used to, and (for the same reason) I don't have a lot of time to proofread. So there will be errors.
You are thinking of one forum up. Here, thay ask for rulings on how things they make up would actually work. There would be no point in asking for rulings if every ability did what its creator wanted, simply because he wanted it. There have to be some guidelines, and those are the existing CompRules.
You can even add rules. You just can't assume they will change at your whim.
I'm also answering tersely, because I've answered all of these questions before. One absolute is that no instant card will ever, ever, be in play. Not even for the time it takes for an SBE to remove it. There are other ways, using tokens, to accomplish the ends you want, that do not involve instants in play. Why not use them?
I know you where going to say that. But, honestly Condor, the rules do not say an instant cannot BE in play. Just that it cannot COME INTO play. And we all know that something can turned into something else once it is in play. Also Kraj more or less said he would not unlock my "instant with morph" thread(or let me make more without a warning/infraction), one forum up, unless I was able to get you to say that they worked. So I am asking YOU Condor, does Living Shocker work? With the edit to the comp rules, rule 420.5o "the living spell rule."
The underlying principle here is that an instant can't be in play. But stating that in a a rule would be pointless. So, instead, the rules and cards are structured so that it can't happen. The rules stop it from happening directly, and there is an unwritten (because there is no need to write it) design constraint that no card will ever allow it to happen.
A good example is in the the spoilers for Lorwyn. The "evoke" spells could have been like modal spells; instants in one option, creatures in another. It woul dhave been much simpler. They aren't that way, because they can't be.
I'm sorry you don't like acknowledging these realities, but they are realities.
This is the Custom Card Rulings sub-forum, not the Magic Rulings sub-forum. This is where people ask for (1) rulings on whether or not their custom cards work, and, if they don't work, then (2) help on making them work.
That is all that needs to be done to solve the whole Humility-Break Open debacle
420.5o If non-permanent card is in play, put it into its owners' graveyard.
If you don't want to acknowledge that rules could be added or modified to fix the problems and you claim that there are other ways of accomplishing what he wants, why don't you show him how it should be done to fit inside the current rules instead of just obstinately shooting his idea down. He is obviously going to just keep asking for help until someone gives it to him.
BUT the thing is people will make an "instant with morph" thread ever so often, and someone will tell them they cannot do it, and they will ask why, and that thread will be sent to this thread(which they will not read/understand), and condor will have to repeat him/her self. I would like to beable to tell those people "just add this to your card." They will ask why(without really wanting to know why or to read rules), and you can say "it means this and it will make your card work," and most likly they will just except it.
I know I am being unreasonably stubborn on this issue. I do not like a "impossible problem" I think if you attack something from enough angles you will get the answer. But the one thing I have not been able to "solve" is people. If condor will always say: and there is nothing I can post to change that, then that is that. Kraj will not let me post any more non-permanent cards with morph unless I can get Condor to say: So that is that. If some other way to solve this problem comes to me I will come back to this thread and state it, but as of now I am out of ideas, agian.
On a side note I would love to have a conversation with Condor for real someday. I am much better at those.
I have seen several threads before with this same very common idea of creating instants/sorceries with morph, which is why Condor should post how this idea should be done correctly within the rules instead of just repeating that it is wrong. If "there are other ways, using tokens, to accomplish the ends you want, that do not involve instants in play", what are they?
I just get frustrated when Condor hands down a decree that a custom card or mechanic doesn't work, yet doesn't make any attempt at all to suggest ways to fix it and make it work.