So I want a version of Rain of Gore that works with lifelink. How do I word this?
The main challenge here is having it so that it still doesn't work with like Beacon of Immortality as otherwise I could simply have a replacement effect like:
If a player gains life, that player loses that much life instead.
It's somewhat unclear what you are asking. What is it exactly? A rain of gore that affects lifelink as well? A rain of gore that only affects lifelink?
@Doombringer.
That's what I thought. Ok, how about this; "Whenever an effect causes its controller to gain life, that player loses that much life instead"
@Doombringer.
That's what I thought. Ok, how about this; "Whenever an effect causes its controller to gain life, that player loses that much life instead"
Is combat damage an effect? and does it have a controller?
Lifelink never in any case actually make you gain life. Lifelink only means "damage caused by this causes you to gain life". It always makes the damage gain you life.
Rain of Gore weirdly works with lifelink in some cases, but not in others. I don't know why they don't just make it work all the time for consistency sake.
702.15b Damage dealt by a source with lifelink causes that source’s controller, or its owner if it has
no controller, to gain that much life (in addition to any other results that damage causes). See
rule 119.3. The object with lifelink is the source of the life gain.
The Rain of Gore problem is because lifelink modifies the effect of damage but doesn't technically do anything itself. Unless I am misremembering this, and it is a bizarro ruling, then this is how Rain of Gore interacts with lifelink:
- When a player activates Brion Stoutarm's ability, it is the activated ability that causing the creature to deal damage, so it is also the activated ability that is causing the lifegain. Since Brion Stoutarm's controller controls the activated ability, Rain of Gore will apply.
- When a player attacks with a creature with lifelink, it is the game rules for combat that are causing the creature to deal damage, so it is also the game rules that are causing the lifegain. Since players do not control the game rules, Rain of Gore will not apply. (This is the same reason why Sacred Ground does not apply when an animated Treetop Village is killed by a Lightning Bolt.)
- When Prey Upon is used on a creature with lifelink, it is Prey Upon that is causing the creature to deal damage, so it is also Prey Upon that is causing the lifegain. If the same player controls Prey Upon and the creature with lifelink, then Rain of Gore will apply. If one player uses Prey Upon on a creature with lifelink controlled by another player, then Rain of Gore will not apply.
I'm not entirely sure that my CR hack would work. But it is a proposed solution to make Rain of Gore work properly with lifelink. It is no longer the spell, ability, or game rules that is causing the damage that is the source of the lifegain; it is lifelink that is the source of the lifegain. If this CR hack does work, then the wording for your new Rain of Gore effect would be the same as Rain of Gore.
I'm not entirely sure that my CR hack would work. But it is a proposed solution to make Rain of Gore work properly with lifelink. It is no longer the spell, ability, or game rules that is causing the damage that is the source of the lifegain; it is lifelink that is the source of the lifegain. If this CR hack does work, then the wording for your new Rain of Gore effect would be the same as Rain of Gore.
Rain of Gore doesn't care about the source. It cares specifically about the controller of the spell or ability the would cause life gain. If I activate your Warmonger when it has lifelink, Rain of Gore won't apply because I control the activated ability, even though the source is a creature you control. You would have to specifically reference a "source" if you want it to care about lifelink during combat. If you do, you get the side effect of me using Prey Upon on your lifelink creature causing you to lose life because even though I control the spell, you control the source that caused you to gain life.
702.15f One card (Rain of Gore) cares if a spell or ability causes its controller to gain life. This effect considers the controller of a source with lifelink, or its owner if it has no controller, as the controller of lifelink.
The point is, this is how a lot of players think that this should interact anyway.
702.15f One card (Rain of Gore) cares if a spell or ability causes its controller to gain life. This effect considers the controller of a source with lifelink, or its owner if it has no controller, as the controller of lifelink.
The point is, this is how a lot of players think that this should interact anyway.
The problem is it's still not a spell or ability causing the life gain. Yeah it's not what you'd initially expect, but that's how the rules work. You're trying to make an incredibly heavy handed comprehensive rules entry to make a card do something that's not printed on it and that's not a very good solution at all.
Lifelink is an ability that causes players to gain life. Rain of Gore cares about spells and abilities that cause players to gain life. It is how most people think the cards should interact.
In the CR glossary, which I know is not the rules, lifelink is even described:
Lifelink
A keyword ability that causes a player to gain life. See rule 702.15, “Lifelink.”
The point is, there is probably something wrong with the wording of Rain of Gore, but there is also something wrong with the rules that needs to be changed too.
It used to work with lifelink from combat damage back when lifelink was a triggered ability. But, people also thought they should live if their lifelink damage would keep them above 0 (Blocking one of two 4/4s with a 2/2 lifelink when you're at 3), and that wasn't the case back then. Wizards decided it was more important to allow that much more common case to be more intuitive than the one case of lifelink combat damage with Rain of Gore. Rules change, and sometimes they can't support a card's exact original functionality and that's just something we have to deal with.
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The main challenge here is having it so that it still doesn't work with like Beacon of Immortality as otherwise I could simply have a replacement effect like:
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
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Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
This.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
That's what I thought. Ok, how about this; "Whenever an effect causes its controller to gain life, that player loses that much life instead"
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Is combat damage an effect? and does it have a controller?
Lifelink never in any case actually make you gain life. Lifelink only means "damage caused by this causes you to gain life". It always makes the damage gain you life.
Thus my issues wording this card.
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
no controller, to gain that much life (in addition to any other results that damage causes). See
rule 119.3. The object with lifelink is the source of the life gain.
What wording do I then use for my new Rain of Gore effect?
Are you designing commons? Check out my primer on NWO.
Interested in making a custom set? Check out my Set skeleton and archetype primer.
I also write articles about getting started with custom card creation.
Go and PLAYTEST your designs, you will learn more in a single playtests than a dozen discussions.
My custom sets:
Dreamscape
Coins of Mercalis [COMPLETE]
Exodus of Zendikar - ON HOLD
- When a player activates Brion Stoutarm's ability, it is the activated ability that causing the creature to deal damage, so it is also the activated ability that is causing the lifegain. Since Brion Stoutarm's controller controls the activated ability, Rain of Gore will apply.
- When a player attacks with a creature with lifelink, it is the game rules for combat that are causing the creature to deal damage, so it is also the game rules that are causing the lifegain. Since players do not control the game rules, Rain of Gore will not apply. (This is the same reason why Sacred Ground does not apply when an animated Treetop Village is killed by a Lightning Bolt.)
- When Prey Upon is used on a creature with lifelink, it is Prey Upon that is causing the creature to deal damage, so it is also Prey Upon that is causing the lifegain. If the same player controls Prey Upon and the creature with lifelink, then Rain of Gore will apply. If one player uses Prey Upon on a creature with lifelink controlled by another player, then Rain of Gore will not apply.
I'm not entirely sure that my CR hack would work. But it is a proposed solution to make Rain of Gore work properly with lifelink. It is no longer the spell, ability, or game rules that is causing the damage that is the source of the lifegain; it is lifelink that is the source of the lifegain. If this CR hack does work, then the wording for your new Rain of Gore effect would be the same as Rain of Gore.
The point is, this is how a lot of players think that this should interact anyway.
In the CR glossary, which I know is not the rules, lifelink is even described:
A keyword ability that causes a player to gain life. See rule 702.15, “Lifelink.”
The point is, there is probably something wrong with the wording of Rain of Gore, but there is also something wrong with the rules that needs to be changed too.