I just Googled the difference between Vintage and Legacy. The result I got is that the only difference is Vintage restricts cards and Legacy doesn't. So if that is the case, why would anyone choose to play Vintage over Legacy?
"Why would anyone play legacy when they could just play vintage?" You haven't really made the case why one similar format is better than another...
I kindof agree that splitting the niche playerbase on two very similar formats is a bad idea, but Vintage has almost zero support as is. (One sanctioned event per year.)
Almost every card that's restricted in Vintage is banned in Legacy. The only exceptions I can think of off the top of my head are Brainstorm, Ponder, Trinisphere, Lion's Eye Diamond and Lotus Petal (although I'm sure there are a few more). Meanwhile there are cards banned in Legacy which are not restricted or banned in Vintage.
Legacy is basically Vintage minus the most powerful and most expensive cards.
"Why would anyone play legacy when they could just play vintage?" You haven't really made the case why one similar format is better than another...
I kindof agree that splitting the niche playerbase on two very similar formats is a bad idea, but Vintage has almost zero support as is. (One sanctioned event per year.)
Yes, I did make my case. The info that I received stated that the only difference between vintage and legacy is that some cards are restricted under vintage but not restricted under legacy. Then Dagoth_Guru added info that some cards are banned in legacy but are restricted under vintage. That would explain why someone would choose vintage over legacy.
The info that I received stated that the only difference between vintage and legacy is that some cards are restricted under vintage but not restricted under legacy. Then Dagoth_Guru added info that some cards are banned in legacy but are restricted under vintage.
As a legacy and vintage player i find that legacy is a more laid back group. You can build a tier 1 deck (Goblins, Solidarity a few versions of almost any other deck) for under $350 or so if you shop around and condition is not your top priority. For vintage a tier 1 deck is almost going to run you $1500 just for the base of any deck with power.
The major differences.
Vintage restricted list almost nothing banned. Very unbalanced format 2 or 3 tier 1 decks. If you can not afford a new car this is not the format for you. Very few tournaments and most allow proxies so very little WOTC support.
Legacy more laid back actual support from WOTC. Cheaper to start and once you have one deck it is real easy with a $100 or so a month budget to build anything else as you go. Mostly the cost is a set of Duals and a set of fetches. I think my set of duals was $800 a year or so ago and I got a set of old duals for $250 and a set of new duals for $200. Most of the rest I just pick up as I go a little here and a little there. Large banned list but no restricted cards that means if its not banned play with 4 of them. Lots of support all over the US.
Yes, I did make my case. The info that I received stated that the only difference between vintage and legacy is that some cards are restricted under vintage but not restricted under legacy. Then Dagoth_Guru added info that some cards are banned in legacy but are restricted under vintage. That would explain why someone would choose vintage over legacy.
So your saying the only difference is the cards you can play.
Huh, then I have a question.
Why would anyone play Extended over Legacy? Same premise.
Or why would anyone play Standard over Extended? Again, same premise.
It's different formats, different metas. The decks in Legacy are no where near the decks in Vintage.
The answer to why someone would play in one format over the other, is because they can.
Legacy is more fun imo, since the games can actually go past turn 2. I mean, I suppose vintage games can too, but that's generally because one player is taking infinite turns.
Legacy is more fun imo, since the games can actually go past turn 2. I mean, I suppose vintage games can too, but that's generally because one player is taking infinite turns.
Not all Vintage games are first turn kills - in fact, the majority of them aren't. But even when the game is over in a handful of turns, those turns are packed full of action. I'd guess that the same amount of cards, if not more, gets played in those turns that get played over the course of a Standard or Extended game. In terms of time, Vintage games probably last as long, if not longer.
It's such a red herring to say that Vintage games last a few turns - so much happens in those turns, there's so much interaction and so much decision making, that the game itself turns out to be very rewarding in spite of its length in turns.
(and a significant number of Vintage games do take a lot of turns: when two powerful decks each blow their loads and get countered/disrupted, you get into topdeck mode where card advantage matters, and where a single Goblin Welder can go the distance)
This is one of the reasons I play Vintage over Legacy. The other reason is that I just don't have the cards for Legacy. I mean, I'm fully powered, have Forces, some Duals (4 UB, 1 of each other), but I don't have the rest of the duals, the counterbalances, the fetches (again I have one of each, with a couple extra from Zen and some extra UB fetches), and especially the Tarmagoyfs necessary to compete in Legacy.
It's such a red herring to say that Vintage games last a few turns - so much happens in those turns, there's so much interaction and so much decision making, that the game itself turns out to be very rewarding in spite of its length in turns.
Very rewarding for the player going off. For the player sitting there watching it's like watching somebody play with themselves...
Very rewarding for the player going off. For the player sitting there watching it's like watching somebody play with themselves...
That's not true. There's a numberofways to handle stuff the opponent plays, even on their first turn before you get a chance to go. The first few turns in Vintage are full of huge potential changes, because every single decision matters. The games are usually over pretty fast in terms of turn count, but they're pretty action-packed turns.
That's not true. There's a numberofways to handle stuff the opponent plays, even on their first turn before you get a chance to go. The first few turns in Vintage are full of huge potential changes, because every single decision matters. The games are usually over pretty fast in terms of turn count, but they're pretty action-packed turns.
--S
Right, and here's the decision: "Did I draw a FoW? Do I have another blue card? Where do I cast it to stop his storm chain, so he can't cast Tendrils..."
Right, and here's the decision: "Did I draw a FoW? Do I have another blue card? Where do I cast it to stop his storm chain, so he can't cast Tendrils..."
Exciting stuff!
The first two questions pretty much come down to deck building. That third question is pretty huge though. One player sets up an intricate puzzle, and the other has to figure out the key lynchpin to take it down (especially now that we have Mindbreak Trap). Maybe that isn't interesting for you, but I like solving puzzles and find them interesting.
Right, and here's the decision: "Did I draw a FoW? Do I have another blue card? Where do I cast it to stop his storm chain, so he can't cast Tendrils..."
Exciting stuff!
It's rather obvious you haven't sat down and played a lot of vintage. I myself haven't played it much, but I know it's a lot more complicated and a lot less luck based than other formats. There is always the potential for perfect hand turn 1 wins, but even standard occasionally has those.
Legacy is an amazing format. There are more viable decks than any other format (by FAR). In percentages, the % of cards playable is absolutely terrible, but that just means when you have a great base you only need to pick up corner case rares to play any deck.
Right, and here's the decision: "Did I draw a FoW? Do I have another blue card? Where do I cast it to stop his storm chain, so he can't cast Tendrils..."
Exciting stuff!
Whereas with Standard, it's "did I draw enough removal in time to stop the large creatures bashing my head in?"
If you play a deck without disruption, yeah, you're gonna get rolled by any Vintage deck. Not a surprise. Likewise, if I sat down at a Standard game with my casual Ally deck (all allies, couple equipments, no spells besides Momentary Blink) I'm going to get rolled by Jund, Baneslayer, whatever. That's the nature of the game.
When you have disruption, then it becomes interesting because you have to know what to counter and what to let go - is he baiting you with Bargain? Is he setting up a Gifts? Playing Vintage requires lots of thought and decision, just a different kind of decision than other formats do.
The first two questions pretty much come down to deck building. That third question is pretty huge though. One player sets up an intricate puzzle, and the other has to figure out the key lynchpin to take it down (especially now that we have Mindbreak Trap). Maybe that isn't interesting for you, but I like solving puzzles and find them interesting.
--S
I'm just bitter since I don't have the P9.
I started playing at Unlimited. At one time I owned a Beta Mox Sapphire, an UL Mox Pearl, and an Ancestral Recall, 4x FoW, and I also had a playset of Revised Duals. All traded away or sold after I thought I'd never play Magic again.
We have one player in our group who owns the P9, and he's got a vintage storm deck. I built a budget storm deck and played him once. It didn't work. It was seriously like watching onanism...
It's rather obvious you haven't sat down and played a lot of vintage. I myself haven't played it much, but I know it's a lot more complicated and a lot less luck based than other formats. There is always the potential for perfect hand turn 1 wins, but even standard occasionally has those.
Actually, Vintage is the most luck based- not because there aren't complex decisions to make, the format is quite skill-testing- but because of the die roll. While its become something of a truism that winning the die roll is winning the game, it actually holds a lot of value in Vintage. Because the only thing the other guy can play turn 1 is Force of Will.
In Standard, going first is good, but not that huge, because you gain a single land drop and one turn's worth of mana, while losing a card. In Extended, its worth a little bit more because the value of a first turn play is more. In Legacy, going first can be crucial- as anyone who's playing Legacy can attest to- because I can play 2-3 mana on turn 1, instead of just 1, and I can look at 3 cards on turn 1, and I can make more broken plays. In Vintage, the advantage is enormous. The mana is worth a lot more because you can play out 2-5+ mana on turn 1, and the card drawn second is worth less because the guy going first has any number of ways to draw extra turns before his opponent.
Not necessarily talking about 1st turn kills here- just the tempo swing is huge.
Legacy is an amazing format. There are more viable decks than any other format (by FAR).
Yeah, that's what I like about Legacy too.
There's a certain limited number of tier 1 decks, like any other formats, but you have a bazillion options for building rogue decks that are quite competitive.
The same thing I loved about the giant Standard of CSP-TSP-LRW-SHM.
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I like block constructed because it has the most restrictive card pool. But it gets degenerate when there are only 2-3 good decks in the format because the tools you need to expand them are only found outside the block.
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I prefer Legacy because it gets rid of all the POWER CARDS and lets you play all the rest of the cards. I do not have to pull out my Lotus and Moxes. It is based on decks, not who has the power cards plus it allows me to play the older decks without worrying about T1 bombs on a regular bases.
HERE IS THE ANSWER, NOT AN OPINION:
The rest of this thread efficiently skewed what was asked here. Hopefully fixing this 10 y/o thread will clear some things up for people thinking about delving into the eternal secrets.
To answer the original question: Vintage allows all cards ever printed that do not require ante (Demonic Attorney), sub games (Shahrazad), or physical feats (Chaos Orb). However, some cards like the Power 9, i.e. Black Lotus and Ancestral Recall are restricted to 1 copy per deck. Similarly, newer format-warping cards occasionally warrant a restriction such as Monastery Mentor and Mental Misstep. Also, Brainstorm, Ponder, and Gush are restricted due to the abundance of powerful draw spells in the format among other factors.
Legacy's card pool is approximately the same as vintage, but banning the power 9 and other uber-powerful cards, hence creating a vastly different gameplay experience. There is no restricted list in Legacy.
Vintage is not necessarily more expensive than Legacy!!! 99% of Vintage events allow 10 to 15 proxies. Therefore it CAN be significantly less expensive to dive in and start playing Vintage.
The 2 formats are entirely different entities though countless cards overlap. Both have their pros and cons and both are expensive. There you have it.
If I missed something, which I did, please post it here.
I kindof agree that splitting the niche playerbase on two very similar formats is a bad idea, but Vintage has almost zero support as is. (One sanctioned event per year.)
Legacy is basically Vintage minus the most powerful and most expensive cards.
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
Yes, I did make my case. The info that I received stated that the only difference between vintage and legacy is that some cards are restricted under vintage but not restricted under legacy. Then Dagoth_Guru added info that some cards are banned in legacy but are restricted under vintage. That would explain why someone would choose vintage over legacy.
Oh so you mean, why wouldn't everyone autmatically prefer a format with 4 Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Yawgmoth's Will...
Actually I think Stephen Meridian has been running a few "unrestricted vintage" games/tournies...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=269045
The major differences.
Vintage restricted list almost nothing banned. Very unbalanced format 2 or 3 tier 1 decks. If you can not afford a new car this is not the format for you. Very few tournaments and most allow proxies so very little WOTC support.
Legacy more laid back actual support from WOTC. Cheaper to start and once you have one deck it is real easy with a $100 or so a month budget to build anything else as you go. Mostly the cost is a set of Duals and a set of fetches. I think my set of duals was $800 a year or so ago and I got a set of old duals for $250 and a set of new duals for $200. Most of the rest I just pick up as I go a little here and a little there. Large banned list but no restricted cards that means if its not banned play with 4 of them. Lots of support all over the US.
So your saying the only difference is the cards you can play.
Huh, then I have a question.
Why would anyone play Extended over Legacy? Same premise.
Or why would anyone play Standard over Extended? Again, same premise.
It's different formats, different metas. The decks in Legacy are no where near the decks in Vintage.
The answer to why someone would play in one format over the other, is because they can.
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Not all Vintage games are first turn kills - in fact, the majority of them aren't. But even when the game is over in a handful of turns, those turns are packed full of action. I'd guess that the same amount of cards, if not more, gets played in those turns that get played over the course of a Standard or Extended game. In terms of time, Vintage games probably last as long, if not longer.
It's such a red herring to say that Vintage games last a few turns - so much happens in those turns, there's so much interaction and so much decision making, that the game itself turns out to be very rewarding in spite of its length in turns.
(and a significant number of Vintage games do take a lot of turns: when two powerful decks each blow their loads and get countered/disrupted, you get into topdeck mode where card advantage matters, and where a single Goblin Welder can go the distance)
This is one of the reasons I play Vintage over Legacy. The other reason is that I just don't have the cards for Legacy. I mean, I'm fully powered, have Forces, some Duals (4 UB, 1 of each other), but I don't have the rest of the duals, the counterbalances, the fetches (again I have one of each, with a couple extra from Zen and some extra UB fetches), and especially the Tarmagoyfs necessary to compete in Legacy.
Very rewarding for the player going off. For the player sitting there watching it's like watching somebody play with themselves...
That's not true. There's a number of ways to handle stuff the opponent plays, even on their first turn before you get a chance to go. The first few turns in Vintage are full of huge potential changes, because every single decision matters. The games are usually over pretty fast in terms of turn count, but they're pretty action-packed turns.
--S
Right, and here's the decision: "Did I draw a FoW? Do I have another blue card? Where do I cast it to stop his storm chain, so he can't cast Tendrils..."
Exciting stuff!
The first two questions pretty much come down to deck building. That third question is pretty huge though. One player sets up an intricate puzzle, and the other has to figure out the key lynchpin to take it down (especially now that we have Mindbreak Trap). Maybe that isn't interesting for you, but I like solving puzzles and find them interesting.
--S
It's rather obvious you haven't sat down and played a lot of vintage. I myself haven't played it much, but I know it's a lot more complicated and a lot less luck based than other formats. There is always the potential for perfect hand turn 1 wins, but even standard occasionally has those.
Legacy is an amazing format. There are more viable decks than any other format (by FAR). In percentages, the % of cards playable is absolutely terrible, but that just means when you have a great base you only need to pick up corner case rares to play any deck.
Whereas with Standard, it's "did I draw enough removal in time to stop the large creatures bashing my head in?"
If you play a deck without disruption, yeah, you're gonna get rolled by any Vintage deck. Not a surprise. Likewise, if I sat down at a Standard game with my casual Ally deck (all allies, couple equipments, no spells besides Momentary Blink) I'm going to get rolled by Jund, Baneslayer, whatever. That's the nature of the game.
When you have disruption, then it becomes interesting because you have to know what to counter and what to let go - is he baiting you with Bargain? Is he setting up a Gifts? Playing Vintage requires lots of thought and decision, just a different kind of decision than other formats do.
I'm just bitter since I don't have the P9.
I started playing at Unlimited. At one time I owned a Beta Mox Sapphire, an UL Mox Pearl, and an Ancestral Recall, 4x FoW, and I also had a playset of Revised Duals. All traded away or sold after I thought I'd never play Magic again.
We have one player in our group who owns the P9, and he's got a vintage storm deck. I built a budget storm deck and played him once. It didn't work. It was seriously like watching onanism...
Actually, Vintage is the most luck based- not because there aren't complex decisions to make, the format is quite skill-testing- but because of the die roll. While its become something of a truism that winning the die roll is winning the game, it actually holds a lot of value in Vintage. Because the only thing the other guy can play turn 1 is Force of Will.
In Standard, going first is good, but not that huge, because you gain a single land drop and one turn's worth of mana, while losing a card. In Extended, its worth a little bit more because the value of a first turn play is more. In Legacy, going first can be crucial- as anyone who's playing Legacy can attest to- because I can play 2-3 mana on turn 1, instead of just 1, and I can look at 3 cards on turn 1, and I can make more broken plays. In Vintage, the advantage is enormous. The mana is worth a lot more because you can play out 2-5+ mana on turn 1, and the card drawn second is worth less because the guy going first has any number of ways to draw extra turns before his opponent.
Not necessarily talking about 1st turn kills here- just the tempo swing is huge.
0 Karn
W Darien
U Arcanis
B Geth
R Norin
G Yeva
UW Hanna
RB Olivia
WB Obzedat
UR Melek
BG Glissa
WR Aurelia
GU Kraj
BRU Nicol Bolas
RGB Prossh
BGW Ghave
GUB Mimeoplasm
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
GWU Treva, the Renewer
EDH Spike:
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Trades
Um, I played when Vintage was the ONLY format
There's a certain limited number of tier 1 decks, like any other formats, but you have a bazillion options for building rogue decks that are quite competitive.
The same thing I loved about the giant Standard of CSP-TSP-LRW-SHM.
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The rest of this thread efficiently skewed what was asked here. Hopefully fixing this 10 y/o thread will clear some things up for people thinking about delving into the eternal secrets.
To answer the original question: Vintage allows all cards ever printed that do not require ante (Demonic Attorney), sub games (Shahrazad), or physical feats (Chaos Orb). However, some cards like the Power 9, i.e. Black Lotus and Ancestral Recall are restricted to 1 copy per deck. Similarly, newer format-warping cards occasionally warrant a restriction such as Monastery Mentor and Mental Misstep. Also, Brainstorm, Ponder, and Gush are restricted due to the abundance of powerful draw spells in the format among other factors.
Legacy's card pool is approximately the same as vintage, but banning the power 9 and other uber-powerful cards, hence creating a vastly different gameplay experience. There is no restricted list in Legacy.
For the full banned and restricted lists visit:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/banned-restricted
Vintage is not necessarily more expensive than Legacy!!! 99% of Vintage events allow 10 to 15 proxies. Therefore it CAN be significantly less expensive to dive in and start playing Vintage.
The 2 formats are entirely different entities though countless cards overlap. Both have their pros and cons and both are expensive. There you have it.
If I missed something, which I did, please post it here.