Yeah, I guess you are, especially since gavin launched this AFTER the invites for the community cup were sent.
I meant next year.. If he "makes" a grassroots format within the next year, he will be looking pretty good. I can tell when people really want to work for Wizards. Not that it's a bad thing to have aspirations or goals, I just dont have any time for my own so people that are trying just look like they are show boating to me.
I meant next year.. If he "makes" a grassroots format within the next year, he will be looking pretty good. I can tell when people really want to work for Wizards. Not that it's a bad thing to have aspirations or goals, I just dont have any time for my own so people that are trying just look like they are show boating to me.
I do not personally know Mr. Verhey, so I cannot speak to his integrity or honor in creating this format and trying to spearhead it. I can, however, speak for myself as an advocate of the format. I have been advocating for Overextended since the rumor first arose last summer (July 2010, I believe). While there might be some people who are showboating in trying to get on board/get noticed by Wizards (maybe this is Mr. Verhey and maybe this is not), there are DEFINITELY players like myself who don't give a darn about that.
We just want Overextended to exist because the format is fun, accessible, new, and innovative. I would be willing to bet that Mr. Verhey is one such player. Even if he is not, there is no reason to cast suspicion at those who want to work alongside him to make the format a reality. Some of us are genuine about this business.
I think having some amount of combo available is very healthy for a format, as long as it isn't dominant. Maybe I'm just not seeing things properly, but is Mind's Desire really that good without Dark Ritual, Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, and other cheap fast mana spells? I think he's got the right heart, but his banned list needs work.
As far as the format is concerned, I'm a Vintage/Legacy player, so to me I'd rather see Wizards support those formats via abolishing the reserved list and reprinting things than creating a new format (a stance I held back in the day when I owned the full power 9 and still hold now being that I still own several dual lands, forces, wastelands etc.) However, if people really want to play competitive Overextended tournaments, and get WotC to embrace that as they did EDH (although moreso due to getting sanctioning capabilities) then more power to y'all.
The fact that he has decided things on his own without the input of the community removes any respect I had for him.
There are too many people who have put these ideas up and talked about it, tested it, presented it to WotC and were basically ignored.
I think wizards is going where they want to go with Modern Magic. I think they want to leave all that graveyard recursion stuff, Storm, and cards like Deed and Vindicate in the past (land D must be bad right?)
If Gavin can get some of star city's money behind him, and get them running SCG OverExtended Open's for him, then power to him, but to me that's just SCG running a tournament, one that can't be sanctioned as anything but Legacy. One that if sanctioned as such would draw the dirty look from WotC.
So this is what he does:
1) Pick arbitrary sets.
2) Ban arbitrary cards to see if it feels different.
3) Declare himself OverExtended god.
I do not personally know Mr. Verhey, so I cannot speak to his integrity or honor in creating this format and trying to spearhead it. I can, however, speak for myself as an advocate of the format. I have been advocating for Overextended since the rumor first arose last summer (July 2010, I believe). While there might be some people who are showboating in trying to get on board/get noticed by Wizards (maybe this is Mr. Verhey and maybe this is not), there are DEFINITELY players like myself who don't give a darn about that.
We just want Overextended to exist because the format is fun, accessible, new, and innovative. I would be willing to bet that Mr. Verhey is one such player. Even if he is not, there is no reason to cast suspicion at those who want to work alongside him to make the format a reality. Some of us are genuine about this business.
-ktkenshinx-
Maybe, but to be frank, why has he been ignoring the rest of us? It's not like we were a hidden community, promoting the format on about 4 different venues and forums.
I emailed him shortly after he registered that domain asking if it was his, and got no response. Surely a "why yes, I plan on promoting overextended" would be ok, because then I could get behind him and encourage other people to do the same, but the arrogance of his SCG post that nobody else was going to do it is just frankly words that turn into smiles on this forum.
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
We just want Overextended to exist because the format is fun, accessible, new, and innovative.
-ktkenshinx-
Is it though?
No one played the old extended.
No one plays the new extended.
Why do you think people will play this version of extended?
The price of legacy thing is a pretty bad argument: If you want to play in sanctoined competetive games, IN ANY FORMAT, you're going to need to spend money. Period. That's just all there is to it. Making up new formats based on arbitrary set release dates isn't going to change that.
If you don;t care about sanctioned events, you are proxy'ing your legacy cards and price is not an issue
So who then is "overextended" actually for? Who is going to bother building an "overextended" deck? Whats the point? If you are a competitive player, you are already spending what it takes to be competitive, if you are not competetive, you have all the pricey cards for free anyway.
I give this rought a 0% chance of taking off or going anywhere. It just seems like a REALLY roundabout way of saying "I can't afford Legacy cards"
The ugly truth is that Legacy IS becoming unaffordable for many, and the prime culprits are on the reserve list. An eternal format where pricey cards can be reprinted seems good. I'm fortunate in that I can afford pretty much whatever I want when it comes to mtg, but actually doing so is becoming tiresome.
I'm one of those many who can't afford to get into Legacy but loves to play competitively. Tried to build a non-dual land required deck, and neither one holds a candle to any of the Tier 1 decks still (I run Affinity and Burn).
Are there still going to be expensive cards in Overextended? Of course. I'm still gonna have to pony up cash for things like Thoughtseizeand Vindicate. However, take a look at some of the comparisons. If I were to run a U/B control deck of some sort, Legacy mana base would cost me $720 just to get the 4 U/B duals and 4 fetchlands. The Overextended mana base is only $160. That's a huge difference. And with the Ravnica duals being off that infamous list, they can be reprinted should WotC see the need to (although given the how popular the fetchlands are and still no reprint in 9 years makes me question how much they care).
Is Verhey handling things correctly? Don't know, we'll see. But if this gets us one step closer to a sanctioned format, then by all means, let's get this rolling.
The fact that he has decided things on his own without the input of the community removes any respect I had for him.
Perhaps he tried to launch it on his own just because no one else was taking the initiative. I for one am willing to give him the INITIAL benefit of the doubt. If he proves that he just wants to be "overextended god" and wants credit/fame/accolades, then i will be the first person to denounce him. But for now, I am willing to be understanding.
If Gavin can get some of star city's money behind him, and get them running SCG OverExtended Open's for him, then power to him, but to me that's just SCG running a tournament, one that can't be sanctioned as anything but Legacy. One that if sanctioned as such would draw the dirty look from WotC.
A better strategy would just be to get a community of players who want the format and want to see it succeed. This would be enough incentive for Wizards to put their own support into it.
So this is what he does:
1) Pick arbitrary sets.
2) Ban arbitrary cards to see if it feels different.
3) Declare himself OverExtended god.
This could definitely be true, and I totally see where you are coming from. Here is how I see it. Either Mr. Vehey did exactly what you thought just to become a big bad internet format mogul and draw Wizards' attention, OR he just wanted to create a starting platform that people can work from.
If he is doing the latter, which is more likely in my opinion, then they are not totally arbitrary. He made some arguments for the cards/sets that he picked, and just wants player input.
If, however, he IS being the arbitrary Overextended God, then that will not be too hard to prove. For example, if he continuously shoots down suggestions, takes credits for ideas, doesn't welcome help, etc. then we will know what his true story is. I would be one of the first to be angry at that, and would act accordingly. But I don't think that's the case.
No one played the old extended.
No one plays the new extended.
Why do you think people will play this version of extended?
Old extended before about 2005 was widely played. But for a variety of reasons, Affinity being one of them, it slowed down and lost followers. Wizards has been trying to fix it then. This new format is not extended, it is an Eternal format that is distinct and separate from, and cheaper than, Legacy.
The price of legacy thing is a pretty bad argument: If you want to play in sanctoined competetive games, IN ANY FORMAT, you're going to need to spend money. Period. That's just all there is to it. Making up new formats based on arbitrary set release dates isn't going to change that.
It just seems like a REALLY roundabout way of saying "I can't afford Legacy cards"
I must flatly disagree with you. The price of Legacy is a major issue in the community, and it is one that Wizards has addressed in the past. When staples are either 100+ or at 70+ and rising, the format is in trouble. It strangles the Legacy format away from Pro Tour sanctioning, because demand would be in such excess of supply.
Overextended is intended to fix a very real problem with Legacy. I don't mind spending a few hundred dollars on a deck, but spending 1500 on one single deck is really not for me, and I know it is not for most players. Overextended gives people the financial option to play multiple decks and have multiple staples, not to mention show up to a more widely supported tournament format.
I give this rought a 0% chance of taking off or going anywhere. It just seems like a REALLY roundabout way of saying "I can't afford Legacy cards"
If you read Gavin's site you will see that Overextended starting from Invasion+ really is a very different format from Legacy. Most staples are cut from the list; Force of Will, Wasteland, Natural Order, Daze, etc. It looks a lot tamer than Legacy, which leaves more options for creativity. Not every deck has to be packing Forces or Wastelands to prevent being blown out by a Natural Order.
Also looking at the deck lists, there are numerous expensive cards on them. Jace 2.0, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, etc. As much as I detest the phrase, I don't think this is a "poor man's" Legacy.
It also has more staying power than Legacy. Gavin makes a convincing argument as to why Wizards would want to support this format. They could release event decks containing hard to obtain staples that would sell very well and make the format accessible to newcomers. That would be a far cry from Legacy, where those who missed the train have to pay 4x - 5x as much as someone did in '05.
Quote from the_cardfather »
I emailed him shortly after he registered that domain asking if it was his, and got no response. Surely a "why yes, I plan on promoting overextended" would be ok, because then I could get behind him and encourage other people to do the same, but the arrogance of his SCG post that nobody else was going to do it is just frankly words that turn into smiles on this forum.
Was it honestly ever going anywhere? The Overextended thread has been around for over a year and still next to nothing has been decided. Last time I looked, people were still arguing over whether the format should start at Masques or not. To launch a format like this, it takes someone who is willing to put in the work and lay down a firm set of rules. Nobody is going to play the format if all you have is a bunch of people on a forum seesawing over where to start. Gavin has obviously done his homework and found what he thinks is best. If you disagree, go comment on his website. In the end, WotC has the ultimate say on this issue so he can't be "the Overextended overlord."
I'm firmly behind him in this. Taking the initiative and making the site and everything Gavin just did for trying to push overextended/modern/legacy lite whatever you want to call it into the heads over at WotC is a very good thing. I doubt he's trying to get recognition in this matter/be the "God" of overextended for all time he's just trying to get support behind it so Wizards will hopefully make it an official format that will replace current extended which is a gigantic joke of a format if I ever saw one. This new invasion forward format would be sweet; I get to play with cards from Invasion block? Hells yes I like that. Same with all those other old blocks that haven't seen the light of day outside of legacy for years. Shocklands? Back in force. Dark Confidant as well. Getting to play enduring ideal is sweet. Same with dragonstorm, psychatog, gifts ungiven, etc. etc. There aren't broken cards like wasteland, force, lion's eye diamond, survival of the fittest, dark ritual, etc. etc. in this format. If this format becomes sanctioned it would be the most diverse format in magic mark my words.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I'm one of those many who can't afford to get into Legacy but loves to play competitively. Tried to build a non-dual land required deck, and neither one holds a candle to any of the Tier 1 decks still (I run Affinity and Burn).
Are there still going to be expensive cards in Overextended? Of course. I'm still gonna have to pony up cash for things like Thoughtseizeand Vindicate. However, take a look at some of the comparisons. If I were to run a U/B control deck of some sort, Legacy mana base would cost me $720 just to get the 4 U/B duals and 4 fetchlands. The Overextended mana base is only $160. That's a huge difference. And with the Ravnica duals being off that infamous list, they can be reprinted should WotC see the need to (although given the how popular the fetchlands are and still no reprint in 9 years makes me question how much they care).
Is Verhey handling things correctly? Don't know, we'll see. But if this gets us one step closer to a sanctioned format, then by all means, let's get this rolling.
Small nitpick: 4 Seas and 4 Polluted Deltas are not $780. You can easily add in a playset of Force of Wills, pay less than $780, and move the duals later for more when you're done with the deck for likely no loss.
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Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
Was it honestly ever going anywhere? The Overextended thread has been around for over a year and still next to nothing has been decided. Last time I looked, people were still arguing over whether the format should start at Masques or not. To launch a format like this, it takes someone who is willing to put in the work and lay down a firm set of rules. Nobody is going to play the format if all you have is a bunch of people on a forum seesawing over where to start. Gavin has obviously done his homework and found what he thinks is best. If you disagree, go comment on his website. In the end, WotC has the ultimate say on this issue so he can't be "the Overextended overlord."
Agreed. I believe that the appropriate phrase is "☺☺☺☺ or get off the pot." Well, Gavin probably couldn't hold it anymore :tongue:. Good for him.
I'm not a huge fan of seeing all the money I've spent on Legacy to be flushed down the toilet by a newer more popular format. But I agree - overextended can be the most diverse format in the game if worked right. I'd be anxious to see if they bother with restrictions, and what would be banned right out the gates.
After reading Gavin's articles, I agreed with just about everything he said. I don't like that WotC created this Modern format, where Tarmogoyf is legal but Arcbound Ravager is not, where Rav Duals are legal but Artifact Lands are not, and where Hypergen is legal but Dark Depths is not. This format is going to be terrible and ridiculous because WotC banned all the interactive, medium-power-level cards but left legal all the uninteractive smash-your-face-in cards. I, for one, will not play Modern.
However, I would love to play Invasion-forward Overextended. It seems balanced in a similar way that Legacy is balanced, where the most ridiculous cards all balance each other out, and the truly ridiculous among the ridiculous (Clamp, Vial, Hypergen) are banned.
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Old terminology reference:
Play (noun): Battlefield
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
I applaud Gavin's article, mainly because it was one of the few that wasn't about irrelevant details regarding his personal life and relationships with women.
Hopefully this new format pans out and isn't just a way for certain companies to create bubbles on certain staple cards.
Can a mod say where we should discuss decks and such for this? Extended seems pretty dead, but it might be better to go to casual.
I'm not sure why Top and Vial are banned, though. The other cards are key parts of powerful combo decks that he doesn't seem to want, but Top and Vial are both fairly reasonable (if powerful) cards.
Can a mod say where we should discuss decks and such for this? Extended seems pretty dead, but it might be better to go to casual.
I'm not sure why Top and Vial are banned, though. The other cards are key parts of powerful combo decks that he doesn't seem to want, but Top and Vial are both fairly reasonable (if powerful) cards.
I can see top because it's such a huge time waster. But come on... Vial? If top is banned, than there are few reasons to ban vial. Vial is the "FU" to counter-top. How many decks run vial? 3? Merfolk, Goblins, and sometimes Junk. Vial is the backbone for tribal decks. Are gobbos going to be that nuts without Lackey? I doubt it.
I could see top if it was about the play time problems, but his stuff seems to indicate that it's just to give it a different identity. Banning Counterbalance should do that well enough if he's worried about CounterTop being too big. Top is just a good card that's fun to play with (except for the possible time issues, which haven't been a problem in legacy and isn't a problem in MTGO) and isn't ridiculously powerful.
Vial makes all low CMC creature decks 1000% better. It gets a little unfair staring down a free creature every turn. But yeah, I don't think it should have been banned.
The only problem I foresse in a format like this is that cards like:
Tarmogoyf
Sword of Fire and Ice
will most likely have a huge price jump. ESPECIALLY 'goyf.
I can't think of many combos that will be available, so it's going ot be a whole lot of control with...goyfs. It would probably be wise to ban that card based on the fact that it's price will make it ridicoulously unaccessible for those who dont want to spend 400$ on a playset. It'll be a format rampant with JtMS and goyfs.
But maybe Jund would make a re-appearence and be able to stomp on that sort of deck. Dunno.
I really hate the idea of making ANOTHER format. Just because Wizards *can* print the cards doesn't mean they will. They won't print Mana Drain even though they can. What makes people think they will print anything remotely relevant to "overextended" or "modern"? They won't reprint Rishadan Port or at least not on a scale big enough to matter.
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I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
I've heavily considered joining the MTGO world simply for modern existing on it. I'm heavily considering putting together a list of "overextended" and "modern" staple cards in playsets in hopes that if this format does come to play i will have what i need already worked out. With this announcement i would have joined full force if it wasn't tuesday nights, or just an hour or two after (EST) so i could join in after legacy and while still on my eternal kick, but of course "tuesday night overextended" won't work for everyone. If the format is popular enough on MTGO nonetheless you'll see me slinging pixels rather than cardboard.
As for the whole legacy lite issue that's been coming up in this thread, consider if overextended does become a PTQ seasonal format, and its popular did stick that the staples and manabases will go up. Onslaught fetches if not reprinted will all be $20+ and i'm sure the deltas/strands over $30 easily. They might all even hit the $30-40 range and we're back to square one. Rav duals would be back to the $15-20 they were in standard once upon a time.
Only not saying 20 since the duals aren't blue, if it's $15-20 again for rav duals, the blue ones will be $20 and the non-blue might be $15, the unpopular ones (Godless shrine, sacred foundry, blood crypt?) might even be $10-12. That's already $300+ in the mana base alone.
Tarmogoyfs are already $60 on a good day, and retail they even are closer to $70-75 so goyf might go back up to $90-100 ranges if not reprinted, that's another $360-400 in your deck. We're already up to over $700 without including anything but some of the manabase. With current prices we still have around $100-150 in cards beyond that when you count canopys, lavamancers, if you choose to run stoneforge excalibur package (i would all day in overextended, and have considered running it at my next big legacy tournament). We're still looking at nearly the same price as legacy zoo, and if you want to convert your deck to the legacy verson.
Bant? You've got the same goyfs but now a blue mana base to consider.
Flooded Strand? It could hit $35 so 2-3 of those is now $70-100 depending on where you go.
Hallowed Fountain? They're currently $12 retail, in the new format we could see $20-25. In 2-3? That's $40-75.
Breeding Pools x4 would be $80 at least
Misty Rainforests would be another $40
Temple Garden and Windswept heaths have also been discussed.
The mana base would be $400+ for a blue-based deck easily that runs duals/fetches.
Unlike the legacy duals, they can reprint the rav duals and even the fetches, but the issue is time. Who cares if they reprint them eventually when you have overextended PTQs to grind?
This doesn't count other staples.
Confidants are $18, but many already settle $20 as being a fair price. We're looking at $25-40 if overextended is popular enough.
Aether Vials if legal will break the $20 mark.
Vindicates will probably hit $40 too.
Merfolk stuff will rise a bit, while we're talking $3 cards becoming $5 cards at worst, the overall value of a merfolk deck will probably be similar to it's current legacy prices anyway.
Jaces will keep their current price tags as it'll be an auto-include in any blue-based control as a win condition. I'd run it in my overextended bant or in decks like BUG control all day long.
Thoughtseize will stay at $20-25, and may even revert back to extended boom prices of $30 a piece.
Wizards can reprint these cards to keep the prices down, but then we're just playing yugioh, and the next chase card will be more expensive because of it. The difference is you can trade up. If you have a single confidant that's $30 and can't get the other three since you don't want to spend $90? Trade it against an onslaught fetch or rav dual, maybe a few if they get reprinted and confidant does not.
The best part about new formats is some cards become relevant that weren't before, so it boosts the secondary market and trade economy. Cards that shined in extended before rotating out or even standard favorites in older standard formats will have a chance to shine that they don't in legacy due to the very high entry barrier cards require for that format (and let's not even get into vintage there), so now if you have that card that used to be a tournament super star-now bulk rare you have something tangible. Rav duals have demand, but i'll admit my steam vents sit in my binder, i basically was delighted to give away my godless shrine and the watery grave i picked up doesn't get a second thought since the only people who want them is EDH players, and it's a singleton there that anyone who's played for the past few years since then has or could have picked up by now. Maybe things will change next month with the EDH precons out, but i know if overextended became popular these cards would trade as hot as my zendikar fetchlands have and i'll probably have people asking for them pretty regularly for this and that deck. Any time a card can get more say on the trade tables that has been collecting dust is a-okay to me, even when i'm trading for them and have to say to myself "this card was $X before when i wouldn't touch it...now i'm paying/trading $Y for it...geez." (this is my story with tops, i remember seeing a $5 price tag once and thinking that was stupid high for any uncommon and immediately passed, now i'm setting aside $60 and going to buy a playset immediately if they don't end up in any EDH precons instead since i could use a set. Times change.)
I meant next year.. If he "makes" a grassroots format within the next year, he will be looking pretty good. I can tell when people really want to work for Wizards. Not that it's a bad thing to have aspirations or goals, I just dont have any time for my own so people that are trying just look like they are show boating to me.
I do not personally know Mr. Verhey, so I cannot speak to his integrity or honor in creating this format and trying to spearhead it. I can, however, speak for myself as an advocate of the format. I have been advocating for Overextended since the rumor first arose last summer (July 2010, I believe). While there might be some people who are showboating in trying to get on board/get noticed by Wizards (maybe this is Mr. Verhey and maybe this is not), there are DEFINITELY players like myself who don't give a darn about that.
We just want Overextended to exist because the format is fun, accessible, new, and innovative. I would be willing to bet that Mr. Verhey is one such player. Even if he is not, there is no reason to cast suspicion at those who want to work alongside him to make the format a reality. Some of us are genuine about this business.
-ktkenshinx-
As far as the format is concerned, I'm a Vintage/Legacy player, so to me I'd rather see Wizards support those formats via abolishing the reserved list and reprinting things than creating a new format (a stance I held back in the day when I owned the full power 9 and still hold now being that I still own several dual lands, forces, wastelands etc.) However, if people really want to play competitive Overextended tournaments, and get WotC to embrace that as they did EDH (although moreso due to getting sanctioning capabilities) then more power to y'all.
There are too many people who have put these ideas up and talked about it, tested it, presented it to WotC and were basically ignored.
I think wizards is going where they want to go with Modern Magic. I think they want to leave all that graveyard recursion stuff, Storm, and cards like Deed and Vindicate in the past (land D must be bad right?)
If Gavin can get some of star city's money behind him, and get them running SCG OverExtended Open's for him, then power to him, but to me that's just SCG running a tournament, one that can't be sanctioned as anything but Legacy. One that if sanctioned as such would draw the dirty look from WotC.
So this is what he does:
1) Pick arbitrary sets.
2) Ban arbitrary cards to see if it feels different.
3) Declare himself OverExtended god.
Maybe, but to be frank, why has he been ignoring the rest of us? It's not like we were a hidden community, promoting the format on about 4 different venues and forums.
I emailed him shortly after he registered that domain asking if it was his, and got no response. Surely a "why yes, I plan on promoting overextended" would be ok, because then I could get behind him and encourage other people to do the same, but the arrogance of his SCG post that nobody else was going to do it is just frankly words that turn into smiles on this forum.
Is it though?
No one played the old extended.
No one plays the new extended.
Why do you think people will play this version of extended?
The price of legacy thing is a pretty bad argument: If you want to play in sanctoined competetive games, IN ANY FORMAT, you're going to need to spend money. Period. That's just all there is to it. Making up new formats based on arbitrary set release dates isn't going to change that.
If you don;t care about sanctioned events, you are proxy'ing your legacy cards and price is not an issue
So who then is "overextended" actually for? Who is going to bother building an "overextended" deck? Whats the point? If you are a competitive player, you are already spending what it takes to be competitive, if you are not competetive, you have all the pricey cards for free anyway.
I give this rought a 0% chance of taking off or going anywhere. It just seems like a REALLY roundabout way of saying "I can't afford Legacy cards"
Are there still going to be expensive cards in Overextended? Of course. I'm still gonna have to pony up cash for things like Thoughtseizeand Vindicate. However, take a look at some of the comparisons. If I were to run a U/B control deck of some sort, Legacy mana base would cost me $720 just to get the 4 U/B duals and 4 fetchlands. The Overextended mana base is only $160. That's a huge difference. And with the Ravnica duals being off that infamous list, they can be reprinted should WotC see the need to (although given the how popular the fetchlands are and still no reprint in 9 years makes me question how much they care).
Is Verhey handling things correctly? Don't know, we'll see. But if this gets us one step closer to a sanctioned format, then by all means, let's get this rolling.
Perhaps he tried to launch it on his own just because no one else was taking the initiative. I for one am willing to give him the INITIAL benefit of the doubt. If he proves that he just wants to be "overextended god" and wants credit/fame/accolades, then i will be the first person to denounce him. But for now, I am willing to be understanding.
A better strategy would just be to get a community of players who want the format and want to see it succeed. This would be enough incentive for Wizards to put their own support into it.
This could definitely be true, and I totally see where you are coming from. Here is how I see it. Either Mr. Vehey did exactly what you thought just to become a big bad internet format mogul and draw Wizards' attention, OR he just wanted to create a starting platform that people can work from.
If he is doing the latter, which is more likely in my opinion, then they are not totally arbitrary. He made some arguments for the cards/sets that he picked, and just wants player input.
If, however, he IS being the arbitrary Overextended God, then that will not be too hard to prove. For example, if he continuously shoots down suggestions, takes credits for ideas, doesn't welcome help, etc. then we will know what his true story is. I would be one of the first to be angry at that, and would act accordingly. But I don't think that's the case.
Old extended before about 2005 was widely played. But for a variety of reasons, Affinity being one of them, it slowed down and lost followers. Wizards has been trying to fix it then. This new format is not extended, it is an Eternal format that is distinct and separate from, and cheaper than, Legacy.
I must flatly disagree with you. The price of Legacy is a major issue in the community, and it is one that Wizards has addressed in the past. When staples are either 100+ or at 70+ and rising, the format is in trouble. It strangles the Legacy format away from Pro Tour sanctioning, because demand would be in such excess of supply.
Overextended is intended to fix a very real problem with Legacy. I don't mind spending a few hundred dollars on a deck, but spending 1500 on one single deck is really not for me, and I know it is not for most players. Overextended gives people the financial option to play multiple decks and have multiple staples, not to mention show up to a more widely supported tournament format.
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If you read Gavin's site you will see that Overextended starting from Invasion+ really is a very different format from Legacy. Most staples are cut from the list; Force of Will, Wasteland, Natural Order, Daze, etc. It looks a lot tamer than Legacy, which leaves more options for creativity. Not every deck has to be packing Forces or Wastelands to prevent being blown out by a Natural Order.
Also looking at the deck lists, there are numerous expensive cards on them. Jace 2.0, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, etc. As much as I detest the phrase, I don't think this is a "poor man's" Legacy.
It also has more staying power than Legacy. Gavin makes a convincing argument as to why Wizards would want to support this format. They could release event decks containing hard to obtain staples that would sell very well and make the format accessible to newcomers. That would be a far cry from Legacy, where those who missed the train have to pay 4x - 5x as much as someone did in '05.
Was it honestly ever going anywhere? The Overextended thread has been around for over a year and still next to nothing has been decided. Last time I looked, people were still arguing over whether the format should start at Masques or not. To launch a format like this, it takes someone who is willing to put in the work and lay down a firm set of rules. Nobody is going to play the format if all you have is a bunch of people on a forum seesawing over where to start. Gavin has obviously done his homework and found what he thinks is best. If you disagree, go comment on his website. In the end, WotC has the ultimate say on this issue so he can't be "the Overextended overlord."
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Small nitpick: 4 Seas and 4 Polluted Deltas are not $780. You can easily add in a playset of Force of Wills, pay less than $780, and move the duals later for more when you're done with the deck for likely no loss.
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Agreed. I believe that the appropriate phrase is "☺☺☺☺ or get off the pot." Well, Gavin probably couldn't hold it anymore :tongue:. Good for him.
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However, I would love to play Invasion-forward Overextended. It seems balanced in a similar way that Legacy is balanced, where the most ridiculous cards all balance each other out, and the truly ridiculous among the ridiculous (Clamp, Vial, Hypergen) are banned.
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RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Fetchland: Arid Mesa
Shockland: Watery Grave
M10 Dual: Glacial Fortress
Hopefully this new format pans out and isn't just a way for certain companies to create bubbles on certain staple cards.
I'm not sure why Top and Vial are banned, though. The other cards are key parts of powerful combo decks that he doesn't seem to want, but Top and Vial are both fairly reasonable (if powerful) cards.
I can see top because it's such a huge time waster. But come on... Vial? If top is banned, than there are few reasons to ban vial. Vial is the "FU" to counter-top. How many decks run vial? 3? Merfolk, Goblins, and sometimes Junk. Vial is the backbone for tribal decks. Are gobbos going to be that nuts without Lackey? I doubt it.
That's pretty much what I was wondering, I've got some decklists already lined up.
Tarmogoyf
Sword of Fire and Ice
will most likely have a huge price jump. ESPECIALLY 'goyf.
I can't think of many combos that will be available, so it's going ot be a whole lot of control with...goyfs. It would probably be wise to ban that card based on the fact that it's price will make it ridicoulously unaccessible for those who dont want to spend 400$ on a playset. It'll be a format rampant with JtMS and goyfs.
But maybe Jund would make a re-appearence and be able to stomp on that sort of deck. Dunno.
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As for the whole legacy lite issue that's been coming up in this thread, consider if overextended does become a PTQ seasonal format, and its popular did stick that the staples and manabases will go up. Onslaught fetches if not reprinted will all be $20+ and i'm sure the deltas/strands over $30 easily. They might all even hit the $30-40 range and we're back to square one. Rav duals would be back to the $15-20 they were in standard once upon a time.
Lets assume you ran zoo:
4 Arid Mesa - $10 ($40)
3 Windswept Heath - $30 ($90)
3 Wooded Foothills - $30 ($90)
3 Sacred Foundry - $15 ($45)
2 Stomping Ground - $15 ($30)
1 Temple Garden - $15 ($15)
Only not saying 20 since the duals aren't blue, if it's $15-20 again for rav duals, the blue ones will be $20 and the non-blue might be $15, the unpopular ones (Godless shrine, sacred foundry, blood crypt?) might even be $10-12. That's already $300+ in the mana base alone.
Tarmogoyfs are already $60 on a good day, and retail they even are closer to $70-75 so goyf might go back up to $90-100 ranges if not reprinted, that's another $360-400 in your deck. We're already up to over $700 without including anything but some of the manabase. With current prices we still have around $100-150 in cards beyond that when you count canopys, lavamancers, if you choose to run stoneforge excalibur package (i would all day in overextended, and have considered running it at my next big legacy tournament). We're still looking at nearly the same price as legacy zoo, and if you want to convert your deck to the legacy verson.
Bant? You've got the same goyfs but now a blue mana base to consider.
Flooded Strand? It could hit $35 so 2-3 of those is now $70-100 depending on where you go.
Hallowed Fountain? They're currently $12 retail, in the new format we could see $20-25. In 2-3? That's $40-75.
Breeding Pools x4 would be $80 at least
Misty Rainforests would be another $40
Temple Garden and Windswept heaths have also been discussed.
The mana base would be $400+ for a blue-based deck easily that runs duals/fetches.
Unlike the legacy duals, they can reprint the rav duals and even the fetches, but the issue is time. Who cares if they reprint them eventually when you have overextended PTQs to grind?
This doesn't count other staples.
Confidants are $18, but many already settle $20 as being a fair price. We're looking at $25-40 if overextended is popular enough.
Aether Vials if legal will break the $20 mark.
Vindicates will probably hit $40 too.
Merfolk stuff will rise a bit, while we're talking $3 cards becoming $5 cards at worst, the overall value of a merfolk deck will probably be similar to it's current legacy prices anyway.
Jaces will keep their current price tags as it'll be an auto-include in any blue-based control as a win condition. I'd run it in my overextended bant or in decks like BUG control all day long.
Thoughtseize will stay at $20-25, and may even revert back to extended boom prices of $30 a piece.
Wizards can reprint these cards to keep the prices down, but then we're just playing yugioh, and the next chase card will be more expensive because of it. The difference is you can trade up. If you have a single confidant that's $30 and can't get the other three since you don't want to spend $90? Trade it against an onslaught fetch or rav dual, maybe a few if they get reprinted and confidant does not.
The best part about new formats is some cards become relevant that weren't before, so it boosts the secondary market and trade economy. Cards that shined in extended before rotating out or even standard favorites in older standard formats will have a chance to shine that they don't in legacy due to the very high entry barrier cards require for that format (and let's not even get into vintage there), so now if you have that card that used to be a tournament super star-now bulk rare you have something tangible. Rav duals have demand, but i'll admit my steam vents sit in my binder, i basically was delighted to give away my godless shrine and the watery grave i picked up doesn't get a second thought since the only people who want them is EDH players, and it's a singleton there that anyone who's played for the past few years since then has or could have picked up by now. Maybe things will change next month with the EDH precons out, but i know if overextended became popular these cards would trade as hot as my zendikar fetchlands have and i'll probably have people asking for them pretty regularly for this and that deck. Any time a card can get more say on the trade tables that has been collecting dust is a-okay to me, even when i'm trading for them and have to say to myself "this card was $X before when i wouldn't touch it...now i'm paying/trading $Y for it...geez." (this is my story with tops, i remember seeing a $5 price tag once and thinking that was stupid high for any uncommon and immediately passed, now i'm setting aside $60 and going to buy a playset immediately if they don't end up in any EDH precons instead since i could use a set. Times change.)