And? None of those prices are completely unreasonable. Zoo is going to be an expensive deck to run because it's just a list of good creatures and an expensive mana base. Same with Bant. You can make an expensive list if you really want to. It's completely possible, however, to make effective decks that rely on synergy rather than card power and are significantly cheaper (mono blue fae, for example).
You're certainly right about price spikes. For this to work out any better than Legacy has, WotC will have to be on the ball when it comes to reprints. They will need to ACTIVELY watch the secondary market and adjust upcoming products accordingly.
IMO they should already be planning to reprint the Ravnica shocklands in M2013. It's time. The Onslaught fetches should be reprinted sometime shortly after Zen rotates. That's past due. Will they? We'll see.
IMO they should already be planning to reprint the Ravnica shocklands in M2013. It's time. The Onslaught fetches should be reprinted sometime shortly after Zen rotates. That's past due. Will they? We'll see.
The Onslaught fetches should have already been reprinted. :/ It'd be nice to see either those or the shocklands in the Commander product releasing this year.
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"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
Old extended before about 2005 was widely played. But for a variety of reasons, Affinity being one of them, it slowed down and lost followers. Wizards has been trying to fix it then. This new format is not extended, it is an Eternal format that is distinct and separate from, and cheaper than, Legacy.
Old extended was only ever played for a few month during extended season. That was it. It was never a seriously followed format. If the price of Legacy is a problem, proxy your Legacy cards, your deck wil be JUST as DCI legal as your overextended deck.
I must flatly disagree with you. The price of Legacy is a major issue in the community, and it is one that Wizards has addressed in the past. When staples are either 100+ or at 70+ and rising, the format is in trouble. It strangles the Legacy format away from Pro Tour sanctioning, because demand would be in such excess of supply.
Overextended is intended to fix a very real problem with Legacy. I don't mind spending a few hundred dollars on a deck, but spending 1500 on one single deck is really not for me, and I know it is not for most players. Overextended gives people the financial option to play multiple decks and have multiple staples, not to mention show up to a more widely supported tournament format.
-ktkenshinx-
P-R-O-X-Y. Your deck wil be JUST as DCI legal as your overextended deck
Yes, it will cost money, but some players (such as myself, an 18 year old student with little expendable income) cannot afford to spend hundreds of dollars/pounds on a fricken half decent mana base.
I want to play some goddamn MTG. I think it sucks that I can't play awesome decks because of how expensive it is. I want to play awesome decks too. Overextended solves the main problem I'm faced with in terms of playing powerful, competitive decks. As a result, I am behind it.
You can play any deck you want. Proxy any cards you need. Your deck wil be JUST as DCI legal as your overextended deck
If you read Gavin's site you will see that Overextended starting from Invasion+ really is a very different format from Legacy. Most staples are cut from the list; Force of Will, Wasteland, Natural Order, Daze, etc. It looks a lot tamer than Legacy, which leaves more options for creativity. Not every deck has to be packing Forces or Wastelands to prevent being blown out by a Natural Order.
Yeah, it's different than Legacy. I fail to see why that in itself is a good thing.
Standard has a limited card pool that is clearly defined and creates a decently healthy format that changes and refreshes regularly.
Legacy has a wide card pool, allowing access to almost all the cards, and creates a format where players are free to use those cards, but it doesn;t rotate.
Creating an inbetween format gets you the worst of both worlds. You get a stale format that doesn't have rotation, but you cut out access to a huge chunk of cards. That's why no one plays Block, that's why no one played hte old extended, that's why no one plays the new extended.
That would be a far cry from Legacy, where those who missed the train have to pay 4x - 5x as much as someone did in '05
Proxy whatever you want for free. Your deck wil be JUST as DCI legal as your overextended deck
Also, creating new formats makes new dominant cards, which rockets thier price up, JUST LIKE IN LEGACY. Get rid on the revised duals, and the ravnica duals become that much more powerful, and if overextended gets big, thier price will go up and up and up. Then people will complain a how expensvie Overentended has gotten, and make yet another format?
Was it honestly ever going anywhere? The Overextended thread has been around for over a year and still next to nothing has been decided. Last time I looked, people were still arguing over whether the format should start at Masques or not. To launch a format like this, it takes someone who is willing to put in the work and lay down a firm set of rules. Nobody is going to play the format if all you have is a bunch of people on a forum seesawing over where to start. Gavin has obviously done his homework and found what he thinks is best. If you disagree, go comment on his website. In the end, WotC has the ultimate say on this issue so he can't be "the Overextended overlord."
I can't see Gavin being the key to actually getting enough people rallied around his version of this to actually get WotC to call it a real format, unless they are behind this which I doubt.
Forget calling it overextended and call it Gavin's Format, along with Ben's Format, MagicLeague's format, My format, and Modern.
I know he hasn't played much of this format or Aether Vial wouldn't have even been on the table. It's a pretty weak card considering everything else running around. It's only in my Goblin deck as the backup plan.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I don't really get the whole "your deck will be just as DCI legal as your overextended deck". You do realize that proxies aren't legal in a Legacy format, but Legacy cards are, right? So, actually, your "overextended" deck could very well be a Legacy deck. (see: Affinity)
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"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
And? None of those prices are completely unreasonable. Zoo is going to be an expensive deck to run because it's just a list of good creatures and an expensive mana base. Same with Bant. You can make an expensive list if you really want to. It's completely possible, however, to make effective decks that rely on synergy rather than card power and are significantly cheaper (mono blue fae, for example).
That's the same reasoning as the people who argue that legacy is accessible because you can run dredge, affinity, and some combo decks very cheaply, sans a few cards. We're not even counting tier 2-3 decks that are possible for "legacy on a budget"
The point is that there is always going to be cost prohibitive factors. There's a difference to being able to play a deck in a format, and being able to play a format. To get the most out of legacy, i feel owning the duals, fetches, and most hardcore staples (force of will, wasteland, tarmogoyf) is the very least essential, while having enough cards to play a few full decks to add to variety. In legacy terms i can play nearly 3 decks, and the decks are accumulatively becoming more accessible all around if i just start focusing on getting the cards, and few format staples i don't own yet. Hoping to have most of the bigger taken care of by the end of the year.
Likewise if you wanted to be an overextended player, you're still looking at investing in rav duals and onslaught fetches and cards that are going to be expensive no matter which way you wanna turn it. It's the only way to get a full experience from the format.
In MTGO this format will be very easy. Nearly everything is accessible now, and will probably remain so. If legacy decks can be built for under half the price already, it stands to reason these decks wouldn't cost more than a couple hundred bucks, if even that to build there.
You're certainly right about price spikes. For this to work out any better than Legacy has, WotC will have to be on the ball when it comes to reprints. They will need to ACTIVELY watch the secondary market and adjust upcoming products accordingly.
IMO they should already be planning to reprint the Ravnica shocklands in M2013. It's time. The Onslaught fetches should be reprinted sometime shortly after Zen rotates. That's past due. Will they? We'll see.
I feel like the onslaught fetches would be perfect to reprint in a core set or future expansion. They don't need the zen lands, and it goes with wizards liking to support ally colored lands for their current dual models (m10 duals, man lands, scars lands). I have most of the onslaught ones, but i would still welcome a reprint. They're too essential.
Though i don't think wizards wants standard to have fetches and fetchable duals together, so we'd definitely have time to wait between each if they were standard legal. both sets are more than welcome to come back, even if just the ally colors.
That's the same reasoning as the people who argue that legacy is accessible because you can run dredge, affinity, and some combo decks very cheaply, sans a few cards. We're not even counting tier 2-3 decks that are possible for "legacy on a budget"
In legacy, the best lands are always the Duals. They're just straight up better than regular lands. In this format it's a trade-off. Shocklands are good, and they're probably better than most of the other lands, but if you want to search one up and use it that's 3 life. That's a fair amount. Unless you're playing a deck that needs lands with basic types, grabbing some of the scars lands, filters and maybe a couple tribal lands might be better.
Basically, in legacy you might be paying $700 for the mana base for a decent deck while in this overextended you'll probably be paying that much for the more expensive decks.
I can't see Gavin being the key to actually getting enough people rallied around his version of this to actually get WotC to call it a real format, unless they are behind this which I doubt.
Forget calling it overextended and call it Gavin's Format, along with Ben's Format, MagicLeague's format, My format, and Modern.
I know he hasn't played much of this format or Aether Vial wouldn't have even been on the table. It's a pretty weak card considering everything else running around. It's only in my Goblin deck as the backup plan.
The only reason I can see is to make merfolk not super dominant. They aren't losing a ton in this format, and are very solid legacy strats. They lose wasteland, lose daze, and lose force of will.
Wasteland can be replaced with tec edge, or dropped all together. And Merfolk don't like having to play daze or FoW, they just have to to avoid being rolled by turn 2-3 combos. And without every other deck having FoW, that leaves only mental missteps to take out an early vial.
I just see vial making Zoo really strong, Goblins could be decent with it, but Merfolk would be the best of overextended with very little question. It's a top 3 legacy deck and it would almost be a direct port to a narrower format. Without vial, it can't just roll out lords and counter everything as easily.
Read the article, and I guess I have to give him some sort of credit for taking initiative.
Over-Extended still seems like a terrible format though, barring (essentially) a Force of Will and Wasteland reprint. Elsewise there isn't strong enough non-basic hate or enough tools to reliably stop combo "universally" (i.e. tools to stop all kinds of combo, not just hate at one archetype).
Old Extended was a combo fest before it got the axe. That's what happens when you have a lot of sets in the mix; combos pop up. And nothing can really match Force of Will for boning combo.
Basically to stabilize Over-Extended you need to either port in a bunch of Legacy, or go through with the ban-hammer until you've killed the "openess" that makes Legacy fun, making it a poor substitute as an Eternal format.
I used to tolerate that *unmentionable list*, but now it's really grating my nerves. Take it out back Wizards and do what needs to be done.
Read the article, and I guess I have to give him some sort of credit for taking initiative.
Over-Extended still seems like a terrible format though, barring (essentially) a Force of Will and Wasteland reprint. Elsewise there isn't strong enough non-basic hate or enough tools to reliably stop combo "universally" (i.e. tools to stop all kinds of combo, not just hate at one archetype).
Old Extended was a combo fest before it got the axe. That's what happens when you have a lot of sets in the mix; combos pop up. And nothing can really match Force of Will for boning combo.
Basically to stabilize Over-Extended you need to either port in a bunch of Legacy, or go through with the ban-hammer until you've killed the "openess" that makes Legacy fun, making it a poor substitute as an Eternal format.
I used to tolerate that *unmentionable list*, but now it's really grating my nerves. Take it out back Wizards and do what needs to be done.
no it wasnt, prior to them removing Mirrodin till TS it was mid-range zoo, small zoo, Boom-bust zoo, swans, elves, spliter twin and AIR, it wasnt fae, Jund, and basically type 2 2years ago.
This thread is full of idiots... Lightning Bolt is NOT being reprinted.
Many times has a writer in Wizards said so, because of the plain and simple fact that it's too powerful for what it costs. x/3 creatures shouldn't be able to die at instant speed for one mana without a signifigant drawback. (like PTE giving you a land)
I absolutely guarantee that LB will not be printed in M10, and you can quote me on that.
Gavin here. Thanks for all the discussion. This has been a great to read! I want to comment on a few different popular topics of discussion to answer any questions you guys have. I'd be happy to answer any others as well.
1. This is an attention seeking move/way to get invited to the community cup.
This is an attempt to promote Overextended as a format. If you think it's an attention seeking move there's nothing I can do about that, but I assure you, it isn't. The only proof I can provide is this: who started this thread?
If I was just trying to promote myself, I would be posting everywhere, spreading myself further . Instead, I want people who are genuinely interested to talk about the format. If there isn't a community large enough to push this format by talking over it in forums, then how is it going to have any legs in the first place? I started the spark, but I want other people to set the discussion ablaze.
And as far as the Community Cup goes, I was already there once and, from what I've heard, they don't want to do repeats. Doing all this work now with the intent of having a slim-none chance of making the Community Cup again next year is a pretty big stretch.
2. Talking to the community first
I actually did talk to the community a lot about Overextended, just not on here. There have been several discussions on Twitter about the format. Additionally, I have had two rather long posts on my Facebook with nearly 200 total replying comments on the subject. If you're questioning my use of Facebook as a medium for this discussion, I'm friends with a lot of people from casual to competitive and, since I don't post here much anymore, it gave me a good range of people to receive feedback from.
What I learned, however, is that (as we have seen here) getting a large group of people to agree on anything is impossible. So I took the information I learned from those discussions and began to play games, craft a banned list, and write about the format.
I had to take initiative on the format because nobody else was going to. As noted, the discussion has been around for a year and amounted to little more than something fun to reference. We're all great at talking, but seldom does someone actually put all of those words into action.
I'm certainly not trying to be the god of Overextended, just a leader that could create some action. In fact, the posts on this thread and some of the other feedback on the format are giving me some great ideas already! I'm more than happy to listen to all of what you guys have to say. For example, I am considering unbanning one of the three Dredge cards come the next Overextended B&R announcement (July 7th) thanks to all of your discussion. We'll see what happens in the events, and I would definitely look for some banned list updates after more people play the format. (More on that below.)
Also, to the specific comment from The Cardfather about not responding to your Tweet, I apologize. I definitely remember seeing that tweet. I often quickly check my Twitter via phone while I'm out, and sometimes I see something, get back to doing whatever what I was supposed to be doing, and then forget to reply. Not replying was entirely my mistake, and I'm sorry if it seemed like I ignored you
3. Banned List
There are some important notes before addressing specific cards. First off, the Overextended banned list has several purposes. (Check out this page if you haven't read it already.) In short, the banned list needed to address unfun cards, too powerful cards, and potentially help differentiate the format from Legacy.
Another important note is that I wanted to encourage innovation. If it's a close call, I would rather see what innovations people come up with and then slowly release banned cards if they seemed safe in the format than start with all of the banned cards legal and then ban several of them, changing the format entirely and making a lot of the data useless. (It's worth noting that Dark Depths is legal for the inverse reasons.)
As far as individual cards go:
[CARD]
AEther Vial [/CARD]
It's actually pretty interesting this question came up, because I was asking the same question last year: why was Vial banned in Extended? I felt like it could be safely unbanned and began to do research. When I asked several pros about the topic, they all agreed it was unsafe for various reasons ranging from Faeries, to Affinity, to raw power. We built some decks with it and Vial was pretty insane. There's a lot more you can do than just put Silvergill Adepts onto the battlefield. (Though that isn't bad either.)
Aside from that, AEther Vial is a defining Legacy card. People have called for Vial to be banned at several points in time in Legacy, and by banning it in Overextended it helps differentiate the format at first. This wasn't the main reason to set it aside, but it was certainly a factor. However, I could see unbanning it at some later point once the format is more defined.
With all that said, most of my Overextended testing was pre-Mental Misstep. Now that Misstep exists, Aether Vial might be okay. This is definitely a card that will be considered for unbanning July 7th.
Top, however, is a card I cannot get behind unbanning. The card is immensely powerful and would be played in a ton of decks alongside fetches. For those are suggesting you just ban Counterbalance, Top would still see a ton of play. Also, don't forget why Top was originally banned: because it really slows games down and caused too many draws. That's definitely a factor. Having played a ton of Extended with and without Top, I am definitely happy to have it banned. It also helps differentiate the format from Legacy, which is a plus.
I think a lot of you are still thinking old Extended here. With all of the Invasion cracklands (Sulfur Vent, etc), Chancellor of the Tangle, and Simian Spirit Guide, Hypergenesis can very consistently go off on turn 2. Turn 2! The right turn for combo decks in this format feels like 4, and turn 2 is far earlier than Hypergenesis should be resolving.
Instead, you can still just play Living End. It's much more interactive, can't combo out on turn two, but still a very powerful, yet much more fair, combo deck. It's a much better fit for the format.
Some people say that I must "really hate losing to Dredge" because of this banned list. In fact, it's quite the opposite! I've played a ton of Dredge in Standard, Extended, and Legacy. I know just how powerful the deck can be. In it's hyper-fast version, it just isn't a good deck to have exist in Overextended. It's unfun, warps the format, and overly powerful. You can play the same maindeck and 10-12 of the same sideboards as the Feldman Legacy version!
With all of that said, it's probably okay if some kind of graveyard deck that revolves around Dread Return and Ichorid/Llanowar Mentor wants to exist. There is a good chance one of these three cards will be unbanned come July 7th.
Hopefully that helps answer some of your questions! I'll be reading this thread, so if you have any questions feel free to ask. I may be slow to respond this week because I'm leaving for GP Providence, but I can definitely reply after I return on Monday.
Gavin here. Thanks for all the discussion. This has been a great to read! I want to comment on a few different popular topics of discussion to answer any questions you guys have. I'd be happy to answer any others as well.
1. This is an attention seeking move/way to get invited to the community cup.
This is an attempt to promote Overextended as a format. If you think it's an attention seeking move there's nothing I can do about that, but I assure you, it isn't. The only proof I can provide is this: who started this thread?
If I was just trying to promote myself, I would be posting everywhere, spreading myself further . Instead, I want people who are genuinely interested to talk about the format. If there isn't a community large enough to push this format by talking over it in forums, then how is it going to have any legs in the first place? I started the spark, but I want other people to set the discussion ablaze.
And as far as the Community Cup goes, I was already there once and, from what I've heard, they don't want to do repeats. Doing all this work now with the intent of having a slim-none chance of making the Community Cup again next year is a pretty big stretch.
2. Talking to the community first
I actually did talk to the community a lot about Overextended, just not on here. There have been several discussions on Twitter about the format. Additionally, I have had two rather long posts on my Facebook with nearly 200 total replying comments on the subject. If you're questioning my use of Facebook as a medium for this discussion, I'm friends with a lot of people from casual to competitive and, since I don't post here much anymore, it gave me a good range of people to receive feedback from.
What I learned, however, is that (as we have seen here) getting a large group of people to agree on anything is impossible. So I took the information I learned from those discussions and began to play games, craft a banned list, and write about the format.
I had to take initiative on the format because nobody else was going to. As noted, the discussion has been around for a year and amounted to little more than something fun to reference. We're all great at talking, but seldom does someone actually put all of those words into action.
I'm certainly not trying to be the god of Overextended, just a leader that could create some action. In fact, the posts on this thread and some of the other feedback on the format are giving me some great ideas already! I'm more than happy to listen to all of what you guys have to say. For example, I am considering unbanning one of the three Dredge cards come the next Overextended B&R announcement (July 7th) thanks to all of your discussion. We'll see what happens in the events, and I would definitely look for some banned list updates after more people play the format. (More on that below.)
Also, to the specific comment from The Cardfather about not responding to your Tweet, I apologize. I definitely remember seeing that tweet. I often quickly check my Twitter via phone while I'm out, and sometimes I see something, get back to doing whatever what I was supposed to be doing, and then forget to reply. Not replying was entirely my mistake, and I'm sorry if it seemed like I ignored you
3. Banned List
There are some important notes before addressing specific cards. First off, the Overextended banned list has several purposes. (Check out this page if you haven't read it already.) In short, the banned list needed to address unfun cards, too powerful cards, and potentially help differentiate the format from Legacy.
Another important note is that I wanted to encourage innovation. If it's a close call, I would rather see what innovations people come up with and then slowly release banned cards if they seemed safe in the format than start with all of the banned cards legal and then ban several of them, changing the format entirely and making a lot of the data useless. (It's worth noting that Dark Depths is legal for the inverse reasons.)
As far as individual cards go:
[card]
AEther Vial [/card]
It's actually pretty interesting this question came up, because I was asking the same question last year: why was Vial banned in Extended? I felt like it could be safely unbanned and began to do research. When I asked several pros about the topic, they all agreed it was unsafe for various reasons ranging from Faeries, to Affinity, to raw power. We built some decks with it and Vial was pretty insane. There's a lot more you can do than just put Silvergill Adepts onto the battlefield. (Though that isn't bad either.)
Aside from that, AEther Vial is a defining Legacy card. People have called for Vial to be banned at several points in time in Legacy, and by banning it in Overextended it helps differentiate the format at first. This wasn't the main reason to set it aside, but it was certainly a factor. However, I could see unbanning it at some later point once the format is more defined.
With all that said, most of my Overextended testing was pre-Mental Misstep. Now that Misstep exists, Aether Vial might be okay. This is definitely a card that will be considered for unbanning July 7th.
Top, however, is a card I cannot get behind unbanning. The card is immensely powerful and would be played in a ton of decks alongside fetches. For those are suggesting you just ban Counterbalance, Top would still see a ton of play. Also, don't forget why Top was originally banned: because it really slows games down and caused too many draws. That's definitely a factor. Having played a ton of Extended with and without Top, I am definitely happy to have it banned. It also helps differentiate the format from Legacy, which is a plus.
I think a lot of you are still thinking old Extended here. With all of the Invasion cracklands (Sulfur Vent, etc), Chancellor of the Tangle, and Simian Spirit Guide, Hypergenesis can very consistently go off on turn 2. Turn 2! The right turn for combo decks in this format feels like 4, and turn 2 is far earlier than Hypergenesis should be resolving.
Instead, you can still just play Living End. It's much more interactive, can't combo out on turn two, but still a very powerful, yet much more fair, combo deck. It's a much better fit for the format.
Some people say that I must "really hate losing to Dredge" because of this banned list. In fact, it's quite the opposite! I've played a ton of Dredge in Standard, Extended, and Legacy. I know just how powerful the deck can be. In it's hyper-fast version, it just isn't a good deck to have exist in Overextended. It's unfun, warps the format, and overly powerful. You can play the same maindeck and 10-12 of the same sideboards as the Feldman Legacy version!
With all of that said, it's probably okay if some kind of graveyard deck that revolves around Dread Return and Ichorid/Llanowar Mentor wants to exist. There is a good chance one of these three cards will be unbanned come July 7th.
Hopefully that helps answer some of your questions! I'll be reading this thread, so if you have any questions feel free to ask. I may be slow to respond this week because I'm leaving for GP Providence, but I can definitely reply after I return on Monday.
Thanks for all of the great posts and feedback!
Gavin
I would like to advocate my point in starting with
a.) Invasion (Overextended from Gavin) and b.) Mirrodin (Modern from Wizards.)
a.) Invasion:
This is probably the best block to start another eternal format as you said. I do understand that Card Availabilty is the crux here, however the point is to have a great card pool to create diverse decks. Since Odyssey provided many options to grave-based decks and Onslaught to amazing search lands and storm based decks, Invasion adds to thematic deckbuilding without overpowering the format like Mercadian Masques would. I would love to play in a format where a Combo Deck goes off consistently at turn 4, no free penalty-less countermagic, nor aggro decks that make or break the game in 3 turns. Which brings me to bad points about starting here - You do not want to set a format in motion immediately banning 20+ cards. I will list a few cards, with their reason, that will most likely be banned almost instantly:
Gifts Ungiven (Odyssey will break this card in two); Umezawa's Jitte (No real free/cheap answers to jitte-aggro, however this is added to Modern aswell); Mind's Desire (Storm will become way too powerful with Odyssey and familiars from Invasion);
Dredge Package (Odyssey ruins that one too.)
b.) Mirrodin; or Modern
There is a scent of OCD with this one. (Let's not start with Invasion because there will be 3 blocks that are older and EVERYTHING else will look new.)
In all seriousness - Like I listed above, Odyssey is too powerful for many combo decks and seems pointless to start at Invasion, ban Odyssey, then start from Onslaught. From a flavour point of view it's also useless to start from Onslaught, however the cards from that block might define the format. You have to get the fetchlands, you will most likely deal with Storm and Mind's Desire, and if anyone played against it - you know how scary it is. Starting with Mirrodin does give the stigma that Affinity is crazy. But remember, in Mirrodin, safe from Affinity, you had a lot of great cards to protect you. Chalice of the Void could help vs. Storm decks, Combo decks, which will run rampart in the beginning stages of the format. You have access to the Swords, Pulses, Tooth and Nail, Eternal Witness and whacky cards like Fatespinner.
Setting this format in motion will warrant quite a few bannings from Affinity and a few combo breaking cards:
So in the end, the Wizards format of Modern is most likely the best option, in my opinion. However, we need the community to define the banlist, even the starting one.
-Necroticah
I posted this on one of your articles on your site.
For others on this thread - To make a new format appealing to people not buying cards is the first, great step that Wizards can take. If Wizards decides to make OverExtended the format, they surely need to reprint the staple lands from pre-mirrodin. But seeing that they want Modern, means they do not plan on reprinting fetches, IMO.
The thing here are the cards that form the pillars of legacy decks:
force of will
Brainstorm
Wasteland
LED
Dark ritual
Duals
Swords to Plowshares
Id argue that 90% of legacy matches contain at least a playset of some of those cards.
Without those cards, legacy will feel very very different.
Without force or brainstorm, blue just feels different. The U/x tempo shell is gone, and that will give the format a new feel.
Without wasteland or rishadan port, aggro decks and stax decks just lose a bunch of power.
Without force of will and brainstorm, blues ability to stop early plays and stay alive long enough to gain control sort of ends.
Without duals, the crazy 3/4 color decks will have a much more difficult time being consistent.
Without swords to plowshares, white's 1 mana nearly drawbackless for control removal spell is gone.
Without all of those key cards, its just plain going to feel very different.
Also, protectionless combo should have a theoretical shot at turn 2 with a fair shot at turn 3 and a protected and fairly consistent if not disrupted turn 4 combo.
Why? I've lost turn 4 in limitted, combo should be able to win then too. In fact, scars blocks gives you turn 3 combo with the phyrexian breathing into assault strobe. Yeah, that might be broken, yes you can protect with vines of the vastwood in standard while also giving it trample with other green spells. So let combo live. Zoo and aggro are pretty good at being consistent.
Gavin here. Thanks for all the discussion. This has been a great to read! I want to comment on a few different popular topics of discussion to answer any questions you guys have. I'd be happy to answer any others as well.
Hello Gavin.
It looks like Wizards is testing out Modern Magic and will probably be keeping an eye on the community response to their upcoming event. Frankly, I think the format sounds great. I feel like the new card borders are an interesting starting point and offer an actual reason to start at a specific block without just picking one (like Invasion) to keep powerful Legacy cards out.
That said, I think Overextended sounds good too.
But surely you must feel that if Wizards has already chosen a direction to go for this 'middle Magic' format then your cause is futile. I'm interested in your response to Modern Magic -- because I think players are going to get behind it, and it's already ahead of your idea by coming from WOTC themselves.
Appreciate the work you do for this game, by the way!
How confident are you about not banning Artifact lands? Even without disciple, I think these make Affinity too strong (although it may be too weak without them) and they seem like the kind of "no-splash-damage" cards you mentioned with dredge.
How confident are you about not banning Artifact lands? Even without disciple, I think these make Affinity too strong (although it may be too weak without them) and they seem like the kind of "no-splash-damage" cards you mentioned with dredge.
Affinity isn't that ridiculous. Disciple and Skullclamp abo☺☺☺☺ely break it, but they'll also break a lot of things.
I don't really get the whole "your deck will be just as DCI legal as your overextended deck". You do realize that proxies aren't legal in a Legacy format, but Legacy cards are, right? So, actually, your "overextended" deck could very well be a Legacy deck. (see: Affinity)
Overextended is not a real format, so any overextended tournament is not sanctioned. A proxy Legacy tournament is also not sanctioned.
So if the tournament isn't going to be sancitoned anyway, just run a proxy legacy tournament, you remove the price barrier to play.
To get the most out of legacy, i feel owning the duals, fetches, and most hardcore staples (force of will, wasteland, tarmogoyf) is the very least essential
People really need to get over this "duals are required" thing. It depends on your meta. EVERYONE I play Legacy with runs wasteland, which is why almost no one plays any duals, they run fetches and basics.
The only real "required" card for Legacy is FoW if you are playing blue.
Very funny. Obviously, the end goal here is to get OverExtended as a DCI-sanctioned format. Surely you realize that.
Until then, it has no price advantage over Legacy.
Also, I still don;t see how overextended solves the price problem, since all it will do is make new high priced cards. It's not like Legacy has a lock on expensive cards, JtMS didn't get to $100 because of his impact in Legacy. Once the broken cards of this format are found, thier prices will go up. It's basic economics, you can't change that. All you do by making a new format is change the play value of certain cards, wihch changes your demand, which changes the price.
Like I said before, any inbetween format (extended, modern, overxtended) gets you the worse aspects of standard with out the benefits of Legacy.
Look at the only real succesful user invested format: EDH. It didn't succedd by putting time based restrictions on what cards you could play. It succeeded because ot make deck changes that made the game different to play. Time/set based formats don't change enough from the existing time/set based formats to make them worthwhile.
I applaud anyone who takes the initative to persue something they believe in and want to see happen. But every peice of evidence we have points to this being a complete non starter.
Also, I still don;t see how overextended solves the price problem, since all it will do is make new high priced cards. It's not like Legacy has a lock on expensive cards, JtMS didn't get to $100 because of his impact in Legacy. Once the broken cards of this format are found, thier prices will go up. It's basic economics, you can't change that. All you do by making a new format is change the play value of certain cards, wihch changes your demand, which changes the price.
Sure, they'll go up, but you can't compare the availability of Invasion/Onslaught to the availability of ABU/Tempest. Also, it's been mentioned a few times how no card in Overextended is on the reserved list.
It looks like Wizards is testing out Modern Magic and will probably be keeping an eye on the community response to their upcoming event. Frankly, I think the format sounds great. I feel like the new card borders are an interesting starting point and offer an actual reason to start at a specific block without just picking one (like Invasion) to keep powerful Legacy cards out.
That said, I think Overextended sounds good too.
But surely you must feel that if Wizards has already chosen a direction to go for this 'middle Magic' format then your cause is futile. I'm interested in your response to Modern Magic -- because I think players are going to get behind it, and it's already ahead of your idea by coming from WOTC themselves.
Appreciate the work you do for this game, by the way!
Hey Madding,
This is an important point and I'm going to talk about this some in a post I'm hoping to have up on the site tonight/tomorrow. In a nutshell, Modern seems like just as much of a test format as Overextended right now.
Wizards announced Modern and instantly wanted feedback on it, showing that they weren't sure about it and wanted to know what people thought. They're debuting it at the Community Cup to see how it goes, and I expect revisions to happen. It'd be a much, much different story if they announced a Modern PTQ season, but that's not at all the situation. The only thing distinguishing Modern from Overextended right now is that Modern has a single casual-level event acknowledged by Wizards. Let me quote a piece out of my article:
Last Thursday, Wizards announced that the “Modern” format would be used for the Magic Online Community Cup. The Modern format is a brand new format to be used at the Community Cup that is all the cards with new card frames. (So 8th Edition forward.) This announcement comes with rather impeccable timing considering I had planned on announcing this today, so since we have the opportunity, I'd like to take a moment to look over their format proposal and provide some thoughts.
First, I want to say that what I presume they are doing is giving the idea of a non-rotating current age of Magic format a trial run. After all of the discussion surrounding a new format, where better to test out the idea than a tournament where new and crazy formats are used anyway? However, importantly what I do not believe is that they have married themselves to the Mirrodin forward plan. Most likely, they are looking to try out ideas, had an internal discussion on the topic, and came up with Mirrodin forward.
If anything, Wizards' Modern format proposal is good news for Overextended. It shows that they are seriously considering a new format. Now it's just a matter of which set to start from.
On top of all that, some people have criticized my decision to go ahead with Overextended despite Modern being announced. Why go in a completely different direction that Wizards? Why be so pompous as to try and split the format? However, the opposite is true. Overextended just gives Wizards more knowledge to play with. The results of Modern and Overextended provides them with more results and information to draw upon for creating a new format. It's not like there are Modern events I'm drawing people away from to play Overextended; both discussions can exist and the data collected from both can be the fuel behind a new format.
Sure, they'll go up, but you can't compare the availability of Invasion/Onslaught to the availability of ABU/Tempest. Also, it's been mentioned a few times how no card in Overextended is on the reserved list.
This is big. IIRC we're looking at the rarest cards in this format being orders of magnitude more common than some legacy staples.
People really need to get over this "duals are required" thing. It depends on your meta. EVERYONE I play Legacy with runs wasteland, which is why almost no one plays any duals, they run fetches and basics. .
This is true... but of course Wastelands aren't cheap either.
This is big. IIRC we're looking at the rarest cards in this format being orders of magnitude more common than some legacy staples.
Jace isn't on the restricted list
Force of Will isn't on the restricted list
Wasteland isn't on the restricted list
Primeval Titan isn't on the restricted list
Sword of Fire and Ice isn't on the restricted list
Aether Vial isn't on the restricted list
Crucible of Worlds isn't on the restricted list
Gofy isn't on the restricted list
And on and on and on. Not being on the reserve list doesn;t man a card is cheap, and is certainly no garauntee the card will ever be reprinted in the future.
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You're certainly right about price spikes. For this to work out any better than Legacy has, WotC will have to be on the ball when it comes to reprints. They will need to ACTIVELY watch the secondary market and adjust upcoming products accordingly.
IMO they should already be planning to reprint the Ravnica shocklands in M2013. It's time. The Onslaught fetches should be reprinted sometime shortly after Zen rotates. That's past due. Will they? We'll see.
The Onslaught fetches should have already been reprinted. :/ It'd be nice to see either those or the shocklands in the Commander product releasing this year.
Old extended was only ever played for a few month during extended season. That was it. It was never a seriously followed format. If the price of Legacy is a problem, proxy your Legacy cards, your deck wil be JUST as DCI legal as your overextended deck.
P-R-O-X-Y. Your deck wil be JUST as DCI legal as your overextended deck
You can play any deck you want. Proxy any cards you need. Your deck wil be JUST as DCI legal as your overextended deck
Yeah, it's different than Legacy. I fail to see why that in itself is a good thing.
Standard has a limited card pool that is clearly defined and creates a decently healthy format that changes and refreshes regularly.
Legacy has a wide card pool, allowing access to almost all the cards, and creates a format where players are free to use those cards, but it doesn;t rotate.
Creating an inbetween format gets you the worst of both worlds. You get a stale format that doesn't have rotation, but you cut out access to a huge chunk of cards. That's why no one plays Block, that's why no one played hte old extended, that's why no one plays the new extended.
Proxy whatever you want for free. Your deck wil be JUST as DCI legal as your overextended deck
Also, creating new formats makes new dominant cards, which rockets thier price up, JUST LIKE IN LEGACY. Get rid on the revised duals, and the ravnica duals become that much more powerful, and if overextended gets big, thier price will go up and up and up. Then people will complain a how expensvie Overentended has gotten, and make yet another format?
I can't see Gavin being the key to actually getting enough people rallied around his version of this to actually get WotC to call it a real format, unless they are behind this which I doubt.
Forget calling it overextended and call it Gavin's Format, along with Ben's Format, MagicLeague's format, My format, and Modern.
I know he hasn't played much of this format or Aether Vial wouldn't have even been on the table. It's a pretty weak card considering everything else running around. It's only in my Goblin deck as the backup plan.
I don't really get the whole "your deck will be just as DCI legal as your overextended deck". You do realize that proxies aren't legal in a Legacy format, but Legacy cards are, right? So, actually, your "overextended" deck could very well be a Legacy deck. (see: Affinity)
That's the same reasoning as the people who argue that legacy is accessible because you can run dredge, affinity, and some combo decks very cheaply, sans a few cards. We're not even counting tier 2-3 decks that are possible for "legacy on a budget"
The point is that there is always going to be cost prohibitive factors. There's a difference to being able to play a deck in a format, and being able to play a format. To get the most out of legacy, i feel owning the duals, fetches, and most hardcore staples (force of will, wasteland, tarmogoyf) is the very least essential, while having enough cards to play a few full decks to add to variety. In legacy terms i can play nearly 3 decks, and the decks are accumulatively becoming more accessible all around if i just start focusing on getting the cards, and few format staples i don't own yet. Hoping to have most of the bigger taken care of by the end of the year.
Likewise if you wanted to be an overextended player, you're still looking at investing in rav duals and onslaught fetches and cards that are going to be expensive no matter which way you wanna turn it. It's the only way to get a full experience from the format.
In MTGO this format will be very easy. Nearly everything is accessible now, and will probably remain so. If legacy decks can be built for under half the price already, it stands to reason these decks wouldn't cost more than a couple hundred bucks, if even that to build there.
I feel like the onslaught fetches would be perfect to reprint in a core set or future expansion. They don't need the zen lands, and it goes with wizards liking to support ally colored lands for their current dual models (m10 duals, man lands, scars lands). I have most of the onslaught ones, but i would still welcome a reprint. They're too essential.
Though i don't think wizards wants standard to have fetches and fetchable duals together, so we'd definitely have time to wait between each if they were standard legal. both sets are more than welcome to come back, even if just the ally colors.
In legacy, the best lands are always the Duals. They're just straight up better than regular lands. In this format it's a trade-off. Shocklands are good, and they're probably better than most of the other lands, but if you want to search one up and use it that's 3 life. That's a fair amount. Unless you're playing a deck that needs lands with basic types, grabbing some of the scars lands, filters and maybe a couple tribal lands might be better.
Basically, in legacy you might be paying $700 for the mana base for a decent deck while in this overextended you'll probably be paying that much for the more expensive decks.
Very funny. Obviously, the end goal here is to get OverExtended as a DCI-sanctioned format. Surely you realize that.
The only reason I can see is to make merfolk not super dominant. They aren't losing a ton in this format, and are very solid legacy strats. They lose wasteland, lose daze, and lose force of will.
Wasteland can be replaced with tec edge, or dropped all together. And Merfolk don't like having to play daze or FoW, they just have to to avoid being rolled by turn 2-3 combos. And without every other deck having FoW, that leaves only mental missteps to take out an early vial.
I just see vial making Zoo really strong, Goblins could be decent with it, but Merfolk would be the best of overextended with very little question. It's a top 3 legacy deck and it would almost be a direct port to a narrower format. Without vial, it can't just roll out lords and counter everything as easily.
=
"Sup dawg! I herd u like mountains so I equipped a mountain on your mountain so your can swing with land while you swing with land!"
Over-Extended still seems like a terrible format though, barring (essentially) a Force of Will and Wasteland reprint. Elsewise there isn't strong enough non-basic hate or enough tools to reliably stop combo "universally" (i.e. tools to stop all kinds of combo, not just hate at one archetype).
Old Extended was a combo fest before it got the axe. That's what happens when you have a lot of sets in the mix; combos pop up. And nothing can really match Force of Will for boning combo.
Basically to stabilize Over-Extended you need to either port in a bunch of Legacy, or go through with the ban-hammer until you've killed the "openess" that makes Legacy fun, making it a poor substitute as an Eternal format.
I used to tolerate that *unmentionable list*, but now it's really grating my nerves. Take it out back Wizards and do what needs to be done.
no it wasnt, prior to them removing Mirrodin till TS it was mid-range zoo, small zoo, Boom-bust zoo, swans, elves, spliter twin and AIR, it wasnt fae, Jund, and basically type 2 2years ago.
“Homo homini lupus est.”
Gavin here. Thanks for all the discussion. This has been a great to read! I want to comment on a few different popular topics of discussion to answer any questions you guys have. I'd be happy to answer any others as well.
1. This is an attention seeking move/way to get invited to the community cup.
This is an attempt to promote Overextended as a format. If you think it's an attention seeking move there's nothing I can do about that, but I assure you, it isn't. The only proof I can provide is this: who started this thread?
If I was just trying to promote myself, I would be posting everywhere, spreading myself further . Instead, I want people who are genuinely interested to talk about the format. If there isn't a community large enough to push this format by talking over it in forums, then how is it going to have any legs in the first place? I started the spark, but I want other people to set the discussion ablaze.
And as far as the Community Cup goes, I was already there once and, from what I've heard, they don't want to do repeats. Doing all this work now with the intent of having a slim-none chance of making the Community Cup again next year is a pretty big stretch.
2. Talking to the community first
I actually did talk to the community a lot about Overextended, just not on here. There have been several discussions on Twitter about the format. Additionally, I have had two rather long posts on my Facebook with nearly 200 total replying comments on the subject. If you're questioning my use of Facebook as a medium for this discussion, I'm friends with a lot of people from casual to competitive and, since I don't post here much anymore, it gave me a good range of people to receive feedback from.
What I learned, however, is that (as we have seen here) getting a large group of people to agree on anything is impossible. So I took the information I learned from those discussions and began to play games, craft a banned list, and write about the format.
I had to take initiative on the format because nobody else was going to. As noted, the discussion has been around for a year and amounted to little more than something fun to reference. We're all great at talking, but seldom does someone actually put all of those words into action.
I'm certainly not trying to be the god of Overextended, just a leader that could create some action. In fact, the posts on this thread and some of the other feedback on the format are giving me some great ideas already! I'm more than happy to listen to all of what you guys have to say. For example, I am considering unbanning one of the three Dredge cards come the next Overextended B&R announcement (July 7th) thanks to all of your discussion. We'll see what happens in the events, and I would definitely look for some banned list updates after more people play the format. (More on that below.)
Also, to the specific comment from The Cardfather about not responding to your Tweet, I apologize. I definitely remember seeing that tweet. I often quickly check my Twitter via phone while I'm out, and sometimes I see something, get back to doing whatever what I was supposed to be doing, and then forget to reply. Not replying was entirely my mistake, and I'm sorry if it seemed like I ignored you
3. Banned List
There are some important notes before addressing specific cards. First off, the Overextended banned list has several purposes. (Check out this page if you haven't read it already.) In short, the banned list needed to address unfun cards, too powerful cards, and potentially help differentiate the format from Legacy.
Another important note is that I wanted to encourage innovation. If it's a close call, I would rather see what innovations people come up with and then slowly release banned cards if they seemed safe in the format than start with all of the banned cards legal and then ban several of them, changing the format entirely and making a lot of the data useless. (It's worth noting that Dark Depths is legal for the inverse reasons.)
As far as individual cards go:
[CARD]
AEther Vial [/CARD]
It's actually pretty interesting this question came up, because I was asking the same question last year: why was Vial banned in Extended? I felt like it could be safely unbanned and began to do research. When I asked several pros about the topic, they all agreed it was unsafe for various reasons ranging from Faeries, to Affinity, to raw power. We built some decks with it and Vial was pretty insane. There's a lot more you can do than just put Silvergill Adepts onto the battlefield. (Though that isn't bad either.)
Aside from that, AEther Vial is a defining Legacy card. People have called for Vial to be banned at several points in time in Legacy, and by banning it in Overextended it helps differentiate the format at first. This wasn't the main reason to set it aside, but it was certainly a factor. However, I could see unbanning it at some later point once the format is more defined.
With all that said, most of my Overextended testing was pre-Mental Misstep. Now that Misstep exists, Aether Vial might be okay. This is definitely a card that will be considered for unbanning July 7th.
Sensei's Divining Top
Top, however, is a card I cannot get behind unbanning. The card is immensely powerful and would be played in a ton of decks alongside fetches. For those are suggesting you just ban Counterbalance, Top would still see a ton of play. Also, don't forget why Top was originally banned: because it really slows games down and caused too many draws. That's definitely a factor. Having played a ton of Extended with and without Top, I am definitely happy to have it banned. It also helps differentiate the format from Legacy, which is a plus.
Hypergenesis
I think a lot of you are still thinking old Extended here. With all of the Invasion cracklands (Sulfur Vent, etc), Chancellor of the Tangle, and Simian Spirit Guide, Hypergenesis can very consistently go off on turn 2. Turn 2! The right turn for combo decks in this format feels like 4, and turn 2 is far earlier than Hypergenesis should be resolving.
Instead, you can still just play Living End. It's much more interactive, can't combo out on turn two, but still a very powerful, yet much more fair, combo deck. It's a much better fit for the format.
The dredge hate cards (Narcomoeba, Bridge From Below, Dread Return)
Some people say that I must "really hate losing to Dredge" because of this banned list. In fact, it's quite the opposite! I've played a ton of Dredge in Standard, Extended, and Legacy. I know just how powerful the deck can be. In it's hyper-fast version, it just isn't a good deck to have exist in Overextended. It's unfun, warps the format, and overly powerful. You can play the same maindeck and 10-12 of the same sideboards as the Feldman Legacy version!
With all of that said, it's probably okay if some kind of graveyard deck that revolves around Dread Return and Ichorid/Llanowar Mentor wants to exist. There is a good chance one of these three cards will be unbanned come July 7th.
Hopefully that helps answer some of your questions! I'll be reading this thread, so if you have any questions feel free to ask. I may be slow to respond this week because I'm leaving for GP Providence, but I can definitely reply after I return on Monday.
Thanks for all of the great posts and feedback!
Gavin
I would like to advocate my point in starting with
a.) Invasion (Overextended from Gavin) and b.) Mirrodin (Modern from Wizards.)
a.) Invasion:
This is probably the best block to start another eternal format as you said. I do understand that Card Availabilty is the crux here, however the point is to have a great card pool to create diverse decks. Since Odyssey provided many options to grave-based decks and Onslaught to amazing search lands and storm based decks, Invasion adds to thematic deckbuilding without overpowering the format like Mercadian Masques would. I would love to play in a format where a Combo Deck goes off consistently at turn 4, no free penalty-less countermagic, nor aggro decks that make or break the game in 3 turns. Which brings me to bad points about starting here - You do not want to set a format in motion immediately banning 20+ cards. I will list a few cards, with their reason, that will most likely be banned almost instantly:
Gifts Ungiven (Odyssey will break this card in two);
Umezawa's Jitte (No real free/cheap answers to jitte-aggro, however this is added to Modern aswell);
Mind's Desire (Storm will become way too powerful with Odyssey and familiars from Invasion);
Dredge Package (Odyssey ruins that one too.)
b.) Mirrodin; or Modern
There is a scent of OCD with this one. (Let's not start with Invasion because there will be 3 blocks that are older and EVERYTHING else will look new.)
In all seriousness - Like I listed above, Odyssey is too powerful for many combo decks and seems pointless to start at Invasion, ban Odyssey, then start from Onslaught. From a flavour point of view it's also useless to start from Onslaught, however the cards from that block might define the format. You have to get the fetchlands, you will most likely deal with Storm and Mind's Desire, and if anyone played against it - you know how scary it is. Starting with Mirrodin does give the stigma that Affinity is crazy. But remember, in Mirrodin, safe from Affinity, you had a lot of great cards to protect you. Chalice of the Void could help vs. Storm decks, Combo decks, which will run rampart in the beginning stages of the format. You have access to the Swords, Pulses, Tooth and Nail, Eternal Witness and whacky cards like Fatespinner.
Setting this format in motion will warrant quite a few bannings from Affinity and a few combo breaking cards:
Artifact Lands (Affinity);
Jitte (Same reason as Invasion);
Hypergenesis (Powerful Combo card);
Dark Depths (Since Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is in this format and no Wasteland);
Sword of teh Meek (ban one component from Thopter/Swords and I guess ban the more useless one?);
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (Teh nutz with many cards like Tooth and Nail, Through the Breach, Goryo's Vengeance and what-not.)
So in the end, the Wizards format of Modern is most likely the best option, in my opinion. However, we need the community to define the banlist, even the starting one.
-Necroticah
I posted this on one of your articles on your site.
For others on this thread - To make a new format appealing to people not buying cards is the first, great step that Wizards can take. If Wizards decides to make OverExtended the format, they surely need to reprint the staple lands from pre-mirrodin. But seeing that they want Modern, means they do not plan on reprinting fetches, IMO.
Seems worth it. I'm all for starting at Invasion. I love me some Fact or Fiction (pretty much the only playable card left from that large set)
Juju Alters - Altered MTG Cards
force of will
Brainstorm
Wasteland
LED
Dark ritual
Duals
Swords to Plowshares
Id argue that 90% of legacy matches contain at least a playset of some of those cards.
Without those cards, legacy will feel very very different.
Without force or brainstorm, blue just feels different. The U/x tempo shell is gone, and that will give the format a new feel.
Without wasteland or rishadan port, aggro decks and stax decks just lose a bunch of power.
Without force of will and brainstorm, blues ability to stop early plays and stay alive long enough to gain control sort of ends.
Without duals, the crazy 3/4 color decks will have a much more difficult time being consistent.
Without swords to plowshares, white's 1 mana nearly drawbackless for control removal spell is gone.
Without all of those key cards, its just plain going to feel very different.
Also, protectionless combo should have a theoretical shot at turn 2 with a fair shot at turn 3 and a protected and fairly consistent if not disrupted turn 4 combo.
Why? I've lost turn 4 in limitted, combo should be able to win then too. In fact, scars blocks gives you turn 3 combo with the phyrexian breathing into assault strobe. Yeah, that might be broken, yes you can protect with vines of the vastwood in standard while also giving it trample with other green spells. So let combo live. Zoo and aggro are pretty good at being consistent.
Legacy:WUBG Jace Rock
Trade thread
Sig by: heroes of the plane studios
Hello Gavin.
It looks like Wizards is testing out Modern Magic and will probably be keeping an eye on the community response to their upcoming event. Frankly, I think the format sounds great. I feel like the new card borders are an interesting starting point and offer an actual reason to start at a specific block without just picking one (like Invasion) to keep powerful Legacy cards out.
That said, I think Overextended sounds good too.
But surely you must feel that if Wizards has already chosen a direction to go for this 'middle Magic' format then your cause is futile. I'm interested in your response to Modern Magic -- because I think players are going to get behind it, and it's already ahead of your idea by coming from WOTC themselves.
Appreciate the work you do for this game, by the way!
Affinity isn't that ridiculous. Disciple and Skullclamp abo☺☺☺☺ely break it, but they'll also break a lot of things.
Overextended is not a real format, so any overextended tournament is not sanctioned. A proxy Legacy tournament is also not sanctioned.
So if the tournament isn't going to be sancitoned anyway, just run a proxy legacy tournament, you remove the price barrier to play.
People really need to get over this "duals are required" thing. It depends on your meta. EVERYONE I play Legacy with runs wasteland, which is why almost no one plays any duals, they run fetches and basics.
The only real "required" card for Legacy is FoW if you are playing blue.
Until then, it has no price advantage over Legacy.
Also, I still don;t see how overextended solves the price problem, since all it will do is make new high priced cards. It's not like Legacy has a lock on expensive cards, JtMS didn't get to $100 because of his impact in Legacy. Once the broken cards of this format are found, thier prices will go up. It's basic economics, you can't change that. All you do by making a new format is change the play value of certain cards, wihch changes your demand, which changes the price.
Like I said before, any inbetween format (extended, modern, overxtended) gets you the worse aspects of standard with out the benefits of Legacy.
Look at the only real succesful user invested format: EDH. It didn't succedd by putting time based restrictions on what cards you could play. It succeeded because ot make deck changes that made the game different to play. Time/set based formats don't change enough from the existing time/set based formats to make them worthwhile.
I applaud anyone who takes the initative to persue something they believe in and want to see happen. But every peice of evidence we have points to this being a complete non starter.
Sure, they'll go up, but you can't compare the availability of Invasion/Onslaught to the availability of ABU/Tempest. Also, it's been mentioned a few times how no card in Overextended is on the reserved list.
Hey Madding,
This is an important point and I'm going to talk about this some in a post I'm hoping to have up on the site tonight/tomorrow. In a nutshell, Modern seems like just as much of a test format as Overextended right now.
Wizards announced Modern and instantly wanted feedback on it, showing that they weren't sure about it and wanted to know what people thought. They're debuting it at the Community Cup to see how it goes, and I expect revisions to happen. It'd be a much, much different story if they announced a Modern PTQ season, but that's not at all the situation. The only thing distinguishing Modern from Overextended right now is that Modern has a single casual-level event acknowledged by Wizards. Let me quote a piece out of my article:
On top of all that, some people have criticized my decision to go ahead with Overextended despite Modern being announced. Why go in a completely different direction that Wizards? Why be so pompous as to try and split the format? However, the opposite is true. Overextended just gives Wizards more knowledge to play with. The results of Modern and Overextended provides them with more results and information to draw upon for creating a new format. It's not like there are Modern events I'm drawing people away from to play Overextended; both discussions can exist and the data collected from both can be the fuel behind a new format.
I hope that helps answer your question.
This is big. IIRC we're looking at the rarest cards in this format being orders of magnitude more common than some legacy staples.
This is true... but of course Wastelands aren't cheap either.
Jace isn't on the restricted list
Force of Will isn't on the restricted list
Wasteland isn't on the restricted list
Primeval Titan isn't on the restricted list
Sword of Fire and Ice isn't on the restricted list
Aether Vial isn't on the restricted list
Crucible of Worlds isn't on the restricted list
Gofy isn't on the restricted list
And on and on and on. Not being on the reserve list doesn;t man a card is cheap, and is certainly no garauntee the card will ever be reprinted in the future.