Jace isn't on the restricted list
Force of Will isn't on the restricted list
Wasteland isn't on the restricted list
Primeval Titan isn't on the restricted list
Sword of Fire and Ice isn't on the restricted list
Aether Vial isn't on the restricted list
Crucible of Worlds isn't on the restricted list
Gofy isn't on the restricted list
And on and on and on. Not being on the reserve list doesn;t man a card is cheap, and is certainly no garauntee the card will ever be reprinted in the future.
Force of Will and Wasteland aren't in this format. Crucible of Worlds has been reprinted already. Aether Vial is an uncommon and had a FTV release, putting a decent cap on it's price (though it's still priced as a good rare). Sword of Fire and Ice is only ~$30 now, not the outrageous $70 it was for a moment and is likely never a more than a 2-of anyway. Tarmogoyf and Jace are the only real concerns on that list.
And none of it is contrary to the quote you were responding to.
Jace isn't on the restricted list $70 rare
Force of Will isn't on the restricted list Banned
Wasteland isn't on the restricted list Banned
Primeval Titan isn't on the restricted list $20 rare
Sword of Fire and Ice isn't on the restricted list $30 rare
Aether Vial isn't on the restricted list Banned
Crucible of Worlds isn't on the restricted list $10 rare
Gofy isn't on the restricted list $60 rare
And on and on and on. Not being on the reserve list doesn;t man a card is cheap, and is certainly no garauntee the card will ever be reprinted in the future.
Ok, so the average price of these horribly expensive rares that are going to break the format is ~$40.
Tabernacle and Moat are $200, Force of Will is $50 and there are a number more I could name. The other issue with Legacy is that even the less important cards are expensive, like sinkhole.
Jace isn't on the restricted list
Force of Will isn't on the restricted list
Wasteland isn't on the restricted list
Primeval Titan isn't on the restricted list
Sword of Fire and Ice isn't on the restricted list
Aether Vial isn't on the restricted list
Crucible of Worlds isn't on the restricted list
Gofy isn't on the restricted list
And on and on and on. Not being on the reserve list doesn't mean a card is cheap, and is certainly no guarantee the card will ever be reprinted in the future.
These cards are expensive because of a popular format -- a format that makes WotC very little money relative to others, and a format which they cannot fully support with reprints because many cards ARE on the restricted list.
If OverExtended were to become a sanctioned format then WotC would at least have the capability of fighting a price spike for ANY CARD via their ability to reprint. Is this a guarantee that they would? No. Would it be a good financial move to do so if the format is really popular? Yes, I think so. They have had success with their tournament decks so far, which is basically the same concept except for Standard. I think they're testing the waters and finding them to be quite warm.
These cards are expensive because of a popular format -- a format that makes WotC very little money relative to others, and a format which they cannot fully support with reprints because many cards ARE on the restricted list.
If OverExtended were to become a sanctioned format then WotC would at least have the capability of fighting a price spike for ANY CARD via their ability to reprint. Is this a guarantee that they would? No. Would it be a good financial move to do so if the format is really popular? Yes, I think so. They have had success with their tournament decks so far, which is basically the same concept except for Standard. I think they're testing the waters and finding them to be quite warm.
Does WoTC card about secondary market prices? As has been mentioned by many, neither Force of Will nor Wasteland are on the reserved list, both are in the upper tier of Legacy priced cards, and no reprints are to be seen.
Does WoTC card about secondary market prices? As has been mentioned by many, neither Force of Will nor Wasteland are on the reserved list, both are in the upper tier of Legacy priced cards, and no reprints are to be seen.
Wizards is a corporation and their only objective is to ensure that profits are maximized after every fiscal year. So no, they couldn't care less about secondary market prices.
What would matter to them, however, is if reprinting FoW and Wasteland would substantially increase their profits as opposed to not doing that. It's been discussed in nearly every Magic forum ever and the general consensus is that there's absolutely no good reason for those cards not to be reprinted.
On top of all that, some people have criticized my decision to go ahead with Overextended despite Modern being announced. Why go in a completely different direction that Wizards? Why be so pompous as to try and split the format? However, the opposite is true. Overextended just gives Wizards more knowledge to play with. The results of Modern and Overextended provides them with more results and information to draw upon for creating a new format. It's not like there are Modern events I'm drawing people away from to play Overextended; both discussions can exist and the data collected from both can be the fuel behind a new format.
This quote deserves highlighting because it underscores the most important aspects of the OverExtended format right now. Simply put, Overextended CAN succeed given the right popular support. This is an excellent time to try and implement it because the Magic environment has a number of proverbial planets in alignment.
1) Wizards announced Modern. That means they are actively considering a new eternal format and they want player feedback. Overextended is a type of feedback, and they will pay attention to it.
2) Wizards printed Event Decks with 2x Stoneforge Mystic, retailing the decks for $24.99. Mystic is itself about a $20 card, not to mention all the other good stuff in that deck. This means that Wizards cares about increasing format accessibility by printing overpriced cards, hoping for new players to break into a format.
3) The Legacy-price problem is again at the forefront of forum dialogue. This underscores the inherent problems with Legacy as an eternal format that is burdened by the Reserve List. While Wizards might be unwilling, and unable, to do anything about that List, they can certainly do something about enabling new formats to get around that horrible List. With duals at almost 100 each, Wastelands at 70, and FoW at 80, Legacy is in a newfound state of peril with new players unable to enter at the competitive level.
Any of these signs on their own would not be enough to warrant Overextended participation. But taken together, they have important consequences for the format's potential future.
Quote from Ruin »
Wizards is a corporation and their only objective is to ensure that profits are maximized after every fiscal year. So no, they couldn't care less about secondary market prices.
What would matter to them, however, is if reprinting FoW and Wasteland would substantially increase their profits as opposed to not doing that. It's been discussed in nearly every Magic forum ever and the general consensus is that there's absolutely no good reason for those cards not to be reprinted.
It's just a matter of when, not if.
I fear that reprinting FoW and Wasteland would ultimately do nothing to help Legacy. Initially, the prices of these cards would drop as supply increased. But then more new players would enter the format, empowered by their new purchases. This would drive up the demand for the other staples of Legacy (the dual lands) which are, unfortunately, not able to be reprinted right now. If the Reserve List policy changes, then we can revisit this assumption. But until that time, Legacy is not going to be benefited too much by reprintings of non-Dual staples. It would be a short term solution to a long-term problem.
I fear that reprinting FoW and Wasteland would ultimately do nothing to help Legacy. Initially, the prices of these cards would drop as supply increased. But then more new players would enter the format, empowered by their new purchases. This would drive up the demand for the other staples of Legacy (the dual lands) which are, unfortunately, not able to be reprinted right now. If the Reserve List policy changes, then we can revisit this assumption. But until that time, Legacy is not going to be benefited too much by reprintings of non-Dual staples. It would be a short term solution to a long-term problem.
That is a fear that has also been addressed multiple times.
Truly competitive decks like Goblins, Merfolk, and Dredge have more than one thing in common: none of them run full sets of dual lands (if any), but all of them run a full playset of either Wasteland and/or Force of Will. Even ANT runs only 2-3 dual lands total, at most. There are multiple other decks like Affinity and NO Elves that don't let any Legacy staples near their 75. In fact, I could go on for posts, really. Monoblack Gate needs only Wasteland, Death and Taxes the same, High Tide needs only FoW, etc.
There are examples like Team America, Zoo, and Fish that run dual lands to much success, but it's not required to be successful. Force of Will and Wasteland, however, are (with the exception of Dredge). In fact, it's only been recently in the SCG Legacy Opens that they've taken over due to the lack of hard aggro decks like Dredge to keep FoW decks in check.
BRAVO! Finally somone thinking about the health of a format and not to some way to create a legacy for the poor ones. No Dark rituals, dazes, ports, vials, disciples, sensei...
Great work, this way the format will have a real way to survive and grow.
Personally I don't think hipergenesis and dredge should have been banned, they were too weak against decent to good players that don't get totally surprised. But, whatever... I really give up dredge if it means I can play a format with no dazes, no vials, no counterbalance.
I'm ready to follow them!
Let's do a subforum on mtgs!
Counterbalance is still legal.
Honestly, I don't think Sensei's top needs to be banned in this format. It's good and all, but it loses Brainstorm which removes a lot of power from the deck in case you have Balance without Top.
Remember, part of banning SDT isn't its power level, but to do with it slowing down play (even adding 5-10 seconds topping and thinking every turn from turn one adds up significantly).
People do this all the time in Legacy. It's not an issue.
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The problem with this is that this format doesn't help the whole financial issue. People have been moving into legacy slowly, and buying what they can. Creating a whole new format for people to re-invest their money in is against the solution to the finance issue.
This format isn't interesting at all. There are limited Force of Will and Wasteland -type effects, and it seems like there are a limited amount of combos banned. There's going to be limited interaction in this format where fast combos are possible but fast reactions are not. The format will basically be: overload the board as fast as possible (or combo out as fast as possible), or play nothing and stabilize as fast as possible; midrange decks are going to get overwhelmed. Games are going to be essentially over in a few turns.
Just seems like a way for SCG to make more money by creating demand for cards that don't see play in real formats.
Maybe, but I doubt it. There's nothing to make overextended even slightly more appealing than old or new extended, and those were/are DCI sanctioned, and even during the PTQ season which was the only time anyone EVER played extended, none of the card prices appreciated greatly because they saw play in extended decks.
Exactly, even if it doesn't catch on and is only turned into another SCG Open event format, playing Wake and Slide again would be fun.
Wake is too slow, and there are likely better mana ramp options. Slide.. eh maybe.
SCG hasn't announced any official support for this have they?
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I agree tug... most of my decks are ones that held their own just fine when they were in standard but would be destroyed if I brought them to a legit Legacy event. Not saying it wouldn't happen again once the top teir decks showed face, but the chance to play Greater Gifts, Slide, Wake, KCI, Pickles, etc while testing the format would be a blast.
Fingers crossed on Overextended... although I believe since the Legacy issue is based upon "money" then it should be wise to make overextended much newer and younger... maybe the starting point is 5 or 4 years old; or the starting point is at M2010 (since Wizards has changed the standard design at that point)
That makes zero sense. Just because cards from Onslaught are old doesn't make them expensive. It's a great arguement for someone who is new and doesn't want to take the time to learn classic decks... but I think the issue is just as much "EXT is no fun and LEG is too deep a cardpool to be enjoyable for everyone... let's have a middle ground." not "EXT sucks, let's ban Time Spiral, LOR, and ALA blocks."
Truly competitive decks like Goblins, Merfolk, and Dredge have more than one thing in common: none of them run full sets of dual lands (if any), but all of them run a full playset of either Wasteland and/or Force of Will. Even ANT runs only 2-3 dual lands total, at most. There are multiple other decks like Affinity and NO Elves that don't let any Legacy staples near their 75. In fact, I could go on for posts, really. Monoblack Gate needs only Wasteland, Death and Taxes the same, High Tide needs only FoW, etc.
Yes, the mono colored tempo decks don't run duals, but I'm not sure what the point is. Goblins and Merfolk have serious holes and those other decks mentioned here are tier 2 at best.
There are examples like Team America, Zoo, and Fish that run dual lands to much success, but it's not required to be successful. Force of Will and Wasteland, however, are (with the exception of Dredge). In fact, it's only been recently in the SCG Legacy Opens that they've taken over due to the lack of hard aggro decks like Dredge to keep FoW decks in check.
Pretty much all Tier 1 decks run at least 6 duals. There are decks like Goblins and Merfolk that get pushed into the top 8s just by the sheer number of people playing them, but the decks that you see consistently in the top spots relative to number played rely on the easy mana that dual lands enable.
EDIT: Hell, looking at the Merfolk lists it isn't even that cheap any more. I think you're looking at ~$600+ if you are building from scratch.
Yes, the mono colored tempo decks don't run duals, but I'm not sure what the point is. Goblins and Merfolk have serious holes and those other decks mentioned here are tier 2 at best.
I have to concede that the examples I mentioned aren't exactly tier 1, but those decks still get results all over the world. The main point that I was pushing was that you don't need dual lands to start playing Legacy or even win a tournament. However, you do need Wasteland or FoW simply because Junk/Zoo is going to hose you tempo-wise or ANT/Belcher is going to combo off on or before your second turn. Dual lands don't help in any of the situations I just mentioned, Wastelands and FoW do. Playing competitively without Wastelands and FoW is like showing up to a gunfight naked with a cowboy hat and nothing else; people are going to want to shoot you.
I can find you dozens of examples of decks that placed in the Top 4 without dual lands, but you won't find any decks without FoW or Wasteland (Dredge/Belcher are the exceptions here). That's the reason they need to be reprinted; the real barrier to entry isn't a playset of dual lands, it's a playset of FoW/Wastes.
Pretty much all Tier 1 decks run at least 6 duals. There are decks like Goblins and Merfolk that get pushed into the top 8s just by the sheer number of people playing them, but the decks that you see consistently in the top spots relative to number played rely on the easy mana that dual lands enable.
Now you're speculating. In fact, Jared Sylva from SCG already posted several spreadsheet analyses to debunk the "brute force" argument. Goblins and Merfolk swept last year's invitationals because people were running too many dual lands, even though Zoo and ANT made up 25% of the field. Rishadan Port and Wasteland completely decimate multi-colored decks. However, I do concede that dual lands open up opportunities for people to run the best cards which are, unfortunately, spread across many different colors. But my point still stands; dual lands aren't required to play in or win a Legacy tournament. Maybe to win big, but not to play.
EDIT: Hell, looking at the Merfolk lists it isn't even that cheap any more. I think you're looking at ~$600+ if you are building from scratch.
I also concede this point, mainly because times have changed and that's just an unfortunate example of inflation. Merfolk are getting too damn popular at the moment because it's so easy to play. It's practically the launching pad for any up and coming competitive Legacy player because buying a Merfolk deck means having 60% of Legacy's bread and butter staples as well (FoW/Wasteland/Aether Vial). But you can't argue that Merfolk is putting up serious results, despite its glaring weakness to certain archetypes, and that just proves my point: you don't need dual lands to be at the top.
While I think this is interesting, and would be a great replacement for extended, I have to admit that I am very concerned with this killing the Legacy format. I love magic I play 3-5 times a week and have been playing since revised. After sampling Standard and Extended I have come to the conclusion that I LOVE LEGACY. It is an awesome format for a number of reasons. It's a real shame that the only reason we are having this discussion is WotC won't support the format by reprinting cards for a PTQ season because of some reaction that had to do with the printing of chronicles. I mean come on! That was like for ever ago. I have never once said this before, you have my word, if WotC kills Legacy I will cash out. I am not alone. there are many players who strictly play Legacy. I own a standard deck and even an extended deck. Legacy? I have 10 decks. That's cause they never rotate! I build a deck a year slowly trading for cards when I see the opportunity. Being a big proponent of Legacy and starting and promoting several Legacy events in the Chicago area, I would be heart broke if this was the case. It's such a diverse and fair format, that lets you feel like your really playing "old school" Magic when you play. That is; it feels nostalgic.
I took me a long time to acquire the Legacy staples I have know. I literally just finished my set of duals 2 months ago! If WotC kills Legacy, like they did Vintage, I won't have the momentum to want to acquire the Ravnica Shocks. I just really hope this doesn't happen for the sake of Legacy. I would like to think they will still support it, but lets be real. if this is the new eternal format, it will be the new eternal format.
I just hope WotC can figure out a way to support both formats. I don't like feeling like I'm being punished for playing and sticking around since the beginning. I am a devoted Legacy player, and now they are trying to take my format away. It's just not right.
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I'm glad he's taking the initiative to get this thing off the ground, hope WotC notices. However, I do wish he included masques fr dark ritual and brainstorm though...
This + Modern has provided some of the most fun I've had in a while brewing up decks.
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However, in today's culture of Justin Bieber, Jersey Shore, and Twilight, where every song on the radio, every program on television and every site on the internet is just another monument to the pinnacle of human stupidity, it's certainly not the worst thing that people could be watching.
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Force of Will and Wasteland aren't in this format. Crucible of Worlds has been reprinted already. Aether Vial is an uncommon and had a FTV release, putting a decent cap on it's price (though it's still priced as a good rare). Sword of Fire and Ice is only ~$30 now, not the outrageous $70 it was for a moment and is likely never a more than a 2-of anyway. Tarmogoyf and Jace are the only real concerns on that list.
And none of it is contrary to the quote you were responding to.
Ok, so the average price of these horribly expensive rares that are going to break the format is ~$40.
Tabernacle and Moat are $200, Force of Will is $50 and there are a number more I could name. The other issue with Legacy is that even the less important cards are expensive, like sinkhole.
This format would be nowhere near legacy.
These cards are expensive because of a popular format -- a format that makes WotC very little money relative to others, and a format which they cannot fully support with reprints because many cards ARE on the restricted list.
If OverExtended were to become a sanctioned format then WotC would at least have the capability of fighting a price spike for ANY CARD via their ability to reprint. Is this a guarantee that they would? No. Would it be a good financial move to do so if the format is really popular? Yes, I think so. They have had success with their tournament decks so far, which is basically the same concept except for Standard. I think they're testing the waters and finding them to be quite warm.
Does WoTC card about secondary market prices? As has been mentioned by many, neither Force of Will nor Wasteland are on the reserved list, both are in the upper tier of Legacy priced cards, and no reprints are to be seen.
Wizards is a corporation and their only objective is to ensure that profits are maximized after every fiscal year. So no, they couldn't care less about secondary market prices.
What would matter to them, however, is if reprinting FoW and Wasteland would substantially increase their profits as opposed to not doing that. It's been discussed in nearly every Magic forum ever and the general consensus is that there's absolutely no good reason for those cards not to be reprinted.
It's just a matter of when, not if.
Ruin's Trading Post
This quote deserves highlighting because it underscores the most important aspects of the OverExtended format right now. Simply put, Overextended CAN succeed given the right popular support. This is an excellent time to try and implement it because the Magic environment has a number of proverbial planets in alignment.
1) Wizards announced Modern. That means they are actively considering a new eternal format and they want player feedback. Overextended is a type of feedback, and they will pay attention to it.
2) Wizards printed Event Decks with 2x Stoneforge Mystic, retailing the decks for $24.99. Mystic is itself about a $20 card, not to mention all the other good stuff in that deck. This means that Wizards cares about increasing format accessibility by printing overpriced cards, hoping for new players to break into a format.
3) The Legacy-price problem is again at the forefront of forum dialogue. This underscores the inherent problems with Legacy as an eternal format that is burdened by the Reserve List. While Wizards might be unwilling, and unable, to do anything about that List, they can certainly do something about enabling new formats to get around that horrible List. With duals at almost 100 each, Wastelands at 70, and FoW at 80, Legacy is in a newfound state of peril with new players unable to enter at the competitive level.
Any of these signs on their own would not be enough to warrant Overextended participation. But taken together, they have important consequences for the format's potential future.
I fear that reprinting FoW and Wasteland would ultimately do nothing to help Legacy. Initially, the prices of these cards would drop as supply increased. But then more new players would enter the format, empowered by their new purchases. This would drive up the demand for the other staples of Legacy (the dual lands) which are, unfortunately, not able to be reprinted right now. If the Reserve List policy changes, then we can revisit this assumption. But until that time, Legacy is not going to be benefited too much by reprintings of non-Dual staples. It would be a short term solution to a long-term problem.
-ktkenshinx-
That is a fear that has also been addressed multiple times.
Truly competitive decks like Goblins, Merfolk, and Dredge have more than one thing in common: none of them run full sets of dual lands (if any), but all of them run a full playset of either Wasteland and/or Force of Will. Even ANT runs only 2-3 dual lands total, at most. There are multiple other decks like Affinity and NO Elves that don't let any Legacy staples near their 75. In fact, I could go on for posts, really. Monoblack Gate needs only Wasteland, Death and Taxes the same, High Tide needs only FoW, etc.
There are examples like Team America, Zoo, and Fish that run dual lands to much success, but it's not required to be successful. Force of Will and Wasteland, however, are (with the exception of Dredge). In fact, it's only been recently in the SCG Legacy Opens that they've taken over due to the lack of hard aggro decks like Dredge to keep FoW decks in check.
Ruin's Trading Post
Counterbalance is still legal.
Honestly, I don't think Sensei's top needs to be banned in this format. It's good and all, but it loses Brainstorm which removes a lot of power from the deck in case you have Balance without Top.
People do this all the time in Legacy. It's not an issue.
Standard
UGRB Emerge
Modern
U Tron
Legacy
UWBRG The E.P.I.C. Storm
This format isn't interesting at all. There are limited Force of Will and Wasteland -type effects, and it seems like there are a limited amount of combos banned. There's going to be limited interaction in this format where fast combos are possible but fast reactions are not. The format will basically be: overload the board as fast as possible (or combo out as fast as possible), or play nothing and stabilize as fast as possible; midrange decks are going to get overwhelmed. Games are going to be essentially over in a few turns.
Maybe, but I doubt it. There's nothing to make overextended even slightly more appealing than old or new extended, and those were/are DCI sanctioned, and even during the PTQ season which was the only time anyone EVER played extended, none of the card prices appreciated greatly because they saw play in extended decks.
Exactly, even if it doesn't catch on and is only turned into another SCG Open event format, playing Wake and Slide again would be fun.
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Wake is too slow, and there are likely better mana ramp options. Slide.. eh maybe.
SCG hasn't announced any official support for this have they?
Last time I played Wake, it was a control deck.
I don't think SCG has but, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch of the imagination to think they might down the road.
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WRU Star Spangled Failure
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In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Yes, the mono colored tempo decks don't run duals, but I'm not sure what the point is. Goblins and Merfolk have serious holes and those other decks mentioned here are tier 2 at best.
Pretty much all Tier 1 decks run at least 6 duals. There are decks like Goblins and Merfolk that get pushed into the top 8s just by the sheer number of people playing them, but the decks that you see consistently in the top spots relative to number played rely on the easy mana that dual lands enable.
EDIT: Hell, looking at the Merfolk lists it isn't even that cheap any more. I think you're looking at ~$600+ if you are building from scratch.
I have to concede that the examples I mentioned aren't exactly tier 1, but those decks still get results all over the world. The main point that I was pushing was that you don't need dual lands to start playing Legacy or even win a tournament. However, you do need Wasteland or FoW simply because Junk/Zoo is going to hose you tempo-wise or ANT/Belcher is going to combo off on or before your second turn. Dual lands don't help in any of the situations I just mentioned, Wastelands and FoW do. Playing competitively without Wastelands and FoW is like showing up to a gunfight naked with a cowboy hat and nothing else; people are going to want to shoot you.
I can find you dozens of examples of decks that placed in the Top 4 without dual lands, but you won't find any decks without FoW or Wasteland (Dredge/Belcher are the exceptions here). That's the reason they need to be reprinted; the real barrier to entry isn't a playset of dual lands, it's a playset of FoW/Wastes.
Now you're speculating. In fact, Jared Sylva from SCG already posted several spreadsheet analyses to debunk the "brute force" argument. Goblins and Merfolk swept last year's invitationals because people were running too many dual lands, even though Zoo and ANT made up 25% of the field. Rishadan Port and Wasteland completely decimate multi-colored decks. However, I do concede that dual lands open up opportunities for people to run the best cards which are, unfortunately, spread across many different colors. But my point still stands; dual lands aren't required to play in or win a Legacy tournament. Maybe to win big, but not to play.
I also concede this point, mainly because times have changed and that's just an unfortunate example of inflation. Merfolk are getting too damn popular at the moment because it's so easy to play. It's practically the launching pad for any up and coming competitive Legacy player because buying a Merfolk deck means having 60% of Legacy's bread and butter staples as well (FoW/Wasteland/Aether Vial). But you can't argue that Merfolk is putting up serious results, despite its glaring weakness to certain archetypes, and that just proves my point: you don't need dual lands to be at the top.
Ruin's Trading Post
I took me a long time to acquire the Legacy staples I have know. I literally just finished my set of duals 2 months ago! If WotC kills Legacy, like they did Vintage, I won't have the momentum to want to acquire the Ravnica Shocks. I just really hope this doesn't happen for the sake of Legacy. I would like to think they will still support it, but lets be real. if this is the new eternal format, it will be the new eternal format.
I just hope WotC can figure out a way to support both formats. I don't like feeling like I'm being punished for playing and sticking around since the beginning. I am a devoted Legacy player, and now they are trying to take my format away. It's just not right.
Standard
UB Tezzeret Control
Legacy
UBG Team America
UBR The Epic Storm
UB Stax
UW Thopter Top
UG Hogworts
This + Modern has provided some of the most fun I've had in a while brewing up decks.
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