First, sidewalks are city owned property. Parking lots are owned by the business park, and are considered 'public areas'.
This means the store owner can no more complain about what you do on the sidewalk in front of his store than he can about what you do on the sidewalk in front of the store next to him, unless you are violating a law.
And if you're in a parking lot, then he really doesn't have any grounds to stand on so long as you are not violating a law.
Smokers have rights too, they have rights as people. Anyone who disagrees with the basic human right of freedom, is, well, a fascist by definition.
So long as they are not violating a law, people can smoke anywhere they want, and if you complain to them they can blow it in your face and call you a ******, because this is America, we have something called 'the bill of rights', along with more than 20 other amendments, most of which guarantee certain freedoms to people. It doesn't matter if someone's behavior is poor, they are entitled to that behavior. Smoking, school girl panty card sleeves, constant use of slurs and profane speech, it doesn't matter.
It seems your confusion is due to the fact that I did not specify that the store is in a shopping center. You are right that if the store was downtown or somehow connected to the cities sidewalks that the sidewalk would indeed be public property. Most shops are not downtown so if I want to ask someone to leave my property including my parking lot I can as long as the landlord has given me permission to do so.
I can kick someone out of my store for using school girl sleeves, cursing, etc. and yes it does matter. I can kick someone out of my store just because I do not like them if I want to(I wouldn't, but I could).
The new location that I'm looking at would be a purchase so then I would have even more power to not allow people to smoke in front of my store or parking lot.
So I'm a fascist because I do not want smokers in front of my store but your not a fascist because you want to limit my right to breath clean air? Does your right to smoke somehow supersede my right to clean air?
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I inherently voted yes, because I thought you meant literally smoking inside, during games. I still don't entirely understand your point. It seems like you have alot of issues with your habit (which is entirely curable I might add), and self hate.
No LGS owner in his right mind will ban smoking outside the store.
1. its bad PR for his business. If I was a smoker I'd never go to that store again.
2. he has no legal right to as long as the smokers are far enough away.
The problem is these so-called "curb-smokers" - and I'm not talking MtG/LGS, I mean anywhere in general, and speaking anecdoteally from experience (ie. multiple professionally populated work places with grown adults, etc. - though this also applies I find to many random lower-end businesses) are generally selfish, disrespectful, and not mindful of their environments and more often than not light up right outside doorways and often continue to linger right were everyone else is exposed.
Worst contstructed sentence ever so I'll summarize: I find "curb-smokers" generally linger and loiter on top of public space and entrances where everyone else must be exposed to their filthy smoke. Yes I'm biased, smoking is a deplorable habit.
Just read this one and it highlights the exact problem I'm talking about:
I just wish they wouldnt do it in front of the door. I had to hold my breath on the way in and out of GP DC because of all the people standing around smoking right in front of the entrance.
The biggest problem is keeping people far enough away from the door. My LGS is in a corner of a strip mall and none of the other stores would want people smoking in front of them either.
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The tax comments are hilarious. Do you tax payers realize how much money, tax money, is paid by Big Tobacco and users? I'm not a smoker myself, I find it feminine and disgusting, but I do "dip", which is no less vile a habit, and I even occasionally use while playing. So far I haven't had a player or store owner take issue but I would stop if asked even if I think me dipping is no worse than the slob eating his greasy chinese food across from me. I feel store owners have every right to ask customers not to loiter and disturb business.
The problem is these so-called "curb-smokers" - and I'm not talking MtG/LGS, I mean anywhere in general, and speaking anecdoteally from experience (ie. multiple professionally populated work places with grown adults, etc. - though this also applies I find to many random lower-end businesses) are generally selfish, disrespectful, and not mindful of their environments and more often than not light up right outside doorways and often continue to linger right were everyone else is exposed.
Worst contstructed sentence ever so I'll summarize: I find "curb-smokers" generally linger and loiter on top of public space and entrances where everyone else must be exposed to their filthy smoke. Yes I'm biased, smoking is a deplorable habit.
Just read this one and it highlights the exact problem I'm talking about:
If their in front of the door way then you have every legal right to ask them to move, or have the business move them.
Also, some businesses may not even allow that. Where I work, smokers cannot smoke anywhere on the campus, and must walk to the bench by the street. They especially cannot smoke anywhere near the other buildings we don't own, because those companies could fine us for it.
I agree, smoking is a disgusting habit, and those who do it too close to the building are jerks who should be fined, but as long as they are on a sidewalk or public ground, you can't force them to stop. (even worse sentece structure).
The tax comments are hilarious. Do you tax payers realize how much money, tax money, is paid by Big Tobacco and users? I'm not a smoker myself, I find it feminine and disgusting, but I do "dip", which is no less vile a habit, and I even occasionally use while playing. So far I haven't had a player or store owner take issue but I would stop if asked even if I think me dipping is no worse than the slob eating his greasy chinese food across from me. I feel store owners have every right to ask customers not to loiter and disturb business.
Actually my LGS owner dips as well. Doesn't bother me, and I've never smelled his breath. Actually I think dip and vapor cigarettes are an acceptable comprimise.
It seems your confusion is due to the fact that I did not specify that the store is in a shopping center. You are right that if the store was downtown or somehow connected to the cities sidewalks that the sidewalk would indeed be public property. Most shops are not downtown so if I want to ask someone to leave my property including my parking lot I can as long as the landlord has given me permission to do so.
I can kick someone out of my store for using school girl sleeves, cursing, etc. and yes it does matter. I can kick someone out of my store just because I do not like them if I want to(I wouldn't, but I could).
The new location that I'm looking at would be a purchase so then I would have even more power to not allow people to smoke in front of my store or parking lot.
So I'm a fascist because I do not want smokers in front of my store but your not a fascist because you want to limit my right to breath clean air? Does your right to smoke somehow supersede my right to clean air?
The store is in a shopping center. This means that there is a landlord. No one buys retail space. The land is almost always owned by someone else. This is because it's a lot more cost effective when you don't have to spend $100,000 to buy a building to put a store you honestly can't expect to not fail.
The sidewalk in front of a store in a shopping center could be owned by the shopping center, but if it's connected to a road, chances are it's owned by the city. Most sidewalks are owned by the city, all roads are owned by government.
You can not say that people aren't allowed to do something completely legal outside of your rented property when you are renting property.
You are wrong about what the law says you can and can not do. For instance, the law is very serious about not discriminating.
Yes, you can kick someone out of your store for no reason, even if you only don't like them. There is probably a reason why there aren't many stores that do this, though. Namely they'd go out of business.
And according to the dictionary, the second definition of fascism is : "a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control". Basically saying 'I don't like that you have X right, and if you excercise said right in the near vicinity of my store such as the law allows you to do, then you will be banned from my establishment' is pretty damn close to fascism on a small scale.
And the other stores in the area will be glad to take the business of your former patrons. Especially the non smokers who will eventually leave your store after you impart more of your rules.
The store is in a shopping center. This means that there is a landlord. No one buys retail space. The land is almost always owned by someone else. This is because it's a lot more cost effective when you don't have to spend $100,000 to buy a building to put a store you honestly can't expect to not fail.
The sidewalk in front of a store in a shopping center could be owned by the shopping center, but if it's connected to a road, chances are it's owned by the city. Most sidewalks are owned by the city, all roads are owned by government.
You can not say that people aren't allowed to do something completely legal outside of your rented property when you are renting property.
You are wrong about what the law says you can and can not do. For instance, the law is very serious about not discriminating.
Yes, you can kick someone out of your store for no reason, even if you only don't like them. There is probably a reason why there aren't many stores that do this, though. Namely they'd go out of business.
And according to the dictionary, the second definition of fascism is : "a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control". Basically saying 'I don't like that you have X right, and if you excercise said right in the near vicinity of my store such as the law allows you to do, then you will be banned from my establishment' is pretty damn close to fascism on a small scale.
And the other stores in the area will be glad to take the business of your former patrons. Especially the non smokers who will eventually leave your store after you impart more of your rules.
You do realize that I'm arguing against smoking and yes I am a store owner but no I do not do a lot of the things I'm arguing about. I'm saying that store owners could do them.
My previous reply had clear answers to the rest of your post but it seems you ignored them so I think it's best that we just agree to disagree. I actually rent retail space and know the laws fairly well having rented a retail location and I'm now in the process of buying a retail location. I do not see any further benefit for us having this disagreement but do hope that you will speak to someone you know that is well versed in the topic that you trust. I believe that you will find that a few of your assumptions are inaccurate.
Just for the record I'm extremely nice to all of my customers including the ones that smoke. When I ask them to move to the side of the building I do so in a very respectful way. Please do not let my argument come across in a way that makes it seem like that is how I actually treat my customers.
Have a good day, thank you for the discussion and I will double check a few of the points you made just to insure that I am not in the wrong.
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I voted no, but more accurately I would say: it's completely up to the store owner. If you want to ban people from smoking in front of your store, do it. If you want to let people smoke outside or inside, do it. If you want to let people drink beer and shoot smack in your store, whatever, do it. OP, I think you should focus less on what other people are doing and more on what you are doing. You obviously want to quit smoking, and it is within your power to do so. Here's a few tips from someone who has been there:
1. When you are having a strong urge, find something else to chew/suck on. I chewed up quite a few pens while I was quitting.
2. Figure out a mantra and repeat it to yourself over and over when you are tempted, something like: "I don't need to smoke" or "Cigarettes have no power over me." It sounds silly, but this really helped me through some tough times.
3. Bumming is okay, buying isn't. Take this one with a grain of salt; it was true for me, but may not be for everyone. Buying a pack starts you down a slippery slope that normally ends up with you back on a pack a day. Bumming a cigarette every now and then when you are around people who are smoking relieves some of the tension and isn't a big deal provided you don't have regular access to cigs.
4. Quit with a buddy! My girlfriend and I quit together, and having someone going through the same thing as me was really helpful.
5. Just because you tried and failed before, doesn't mean you will fail this time! This one is huge. Most people who are heavy smokers will not be able to quit the first time out. I was a pack a day man for over a decade and over the course of those years I tried to quit at least four or five times before it finally stuck. Don't beat yourself up if you fall off the wagon. You really have to make up your mind that you are done in order to succeed.
If their in front of the door way then you have every legal right to ask them to move, or have the business move them.
You have every legal right to ask them to leave no matter where they are.
You can scream about your rights all you want, but even if you have the right to smoke, a store owner has the right to ask you to leave the area and non smokers have a right to call you disgusting as much as we want.
And once you are in the store, forget it. A store owner can have someone who hasn't showered removed because they are disgusting and they have the right to tell a smoker to stop stinking up the store and the merchandise.
You do realize that I'm arguing against smoking and yes I am a store owner but no I do not do a lot of the things I'm arguing about. I'm saying that store owners could do them.
My previous reply had clear answers to the rest of your post but it seems you ignored them so I think it's best that we just agree to disagree. I actually rent retail space and know the laws fairly well having rented a retail location and I'm now in the process of buying a retail location. I do not see any further benefit for us having this disagreement but do hope that you will speak to someone you know that is well versed in the topic that you trust. I believe that you will find that a few of your assumptions are inaccurate.
Just for the record I'm extremely nice to all of my customers including the ones that smoke. When I ask them to move to the side of the building I do so in a very respectful way. Please do not let my argument come across in a way that makes it seem like that is how I actually treat my customers.
Have a good day, thank you for the discussion and I will double check a few of the points you made just to insure that I am not in the wrong.
Asking someone to smoke on the side of a building is absolutely fine, and no one should have a problem with it. The minute you tell them they are not allowed at your store, you are literally throwing away money.
Perhaps the reasons you do not take the actions you have prescribed in your previous posts is because you know that they are foolish actions to take, that will cost you money and eventually your business?
Are we honestly having this discussion? Magic General must have really ran out of things to talk about. Yes smokers should be 300 ft away from the store (a girl at our LGS is allergic to smoke) but outside of that let em smoke like a chimney if they want to. Frankly, im actually pretty disgusted with some of the more extreme anti smoking measures i have seen talked about in this thread. Bunch of damn Nazis....
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You have every legal right to ask them to leave no matter where they are.
You can scream about your rights all you want, but even if you have the right to smoke, a store owner has the right to ask you to leave the area and non smokers have a right to call you disgusting as much as we want.
And once you are in the store, forget it. A store owner can have someone who hasn't showered removed because they are disgusting and they have the right to tell a smoker to stop stinking up the store and the merchandise.
I don't think you quite grasp how personal rights work. If someone is smoking on grounds legal for it there's not much a police officer can do. However if you are vehemently calling them a disgusting chiminey to their face you have violated their rights.
Ofcourse an owner can throw someone smelly out of their shop. I don't think that was a topic I brought up. I just said you can't stop someone from smoking on legal grounds. I never said you had to let them back in.
Smoking everywhere should be discouraged. We've known about how awful smoking is for you for so long that there's no reason anyone under the age of 50 should smoke. It's disgusting, expensive, pointless and unhealthy. Plus, it makes people say hilariously stupid things in their defense. The "why is my insurance more" nonsense they come up with never ceases to make me laugh out loud.
Asking someone to smoke on the side of a building is absolutely fine, and no one should have a problem with it. The minute you tell them they are not allowed at your store, you are literally throwing away money.
Perhaps the reasons you do not take the actions you have prescribed in your previous posts is because you know that they are foolish actions to take, that will cost you money and eventually your business?
I never said anything about banning smokers from my store. I said I would like to ban smoking near my store. I do not feel like having smokers in-front of my store does anything to benefit my store and it does a lot of damage to the image of my store. Why should I continue to allow it? Half of the people that sit out there and smoke are not even customers and are just friends of friends that are hanging out. I feel like you keep twisting my words into things that I did not say.
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I haven't read all of this, but my take on this is generally that I don't care if people smoke as long as they do it far away from me. I would be very upset if there was someone smoking at a magic tournament I attended, but don't really have a problem with people smoking outside.
When I was younger, there was magic night at a mini-mall near my house I would go to. This was in the 90's, before a lot of the indoor smoking laws were passed, and there were a number of people who smoked heavily there. Being 13 and kind of shy, I was not overly inclined to ask them to stop, so I stayed even though I would get headaches and sore throats almost immediately. After one particularly long game against a chain smoker, I ended up coming down with Bronchitis and missing a week of school. Now that I am older, I wouldn't put up with that. If people do it outside away from me though, then the worst I have to put up with is a mild headache when I walk past them entering the store, which dissipates pretty quickly.
I don't buy the argument that smoker's increased health care costs somehow give society the right to boss them around. They pay huge amounts of tax on cigarettes precisely for this reason, to offset government medical costs. Further, smokers are much more likely to do what my uncle did; pay social security and medicare for 35 years, then die before retirement from lung cancer or a heart attack. From a societal standpoint, this is about as far away from being a burden as you can get; most of the years smoking cuts off someone's life are usually from retirement, where you would be a net taker from the government. Smoking much less frequently interferes too much with someone's productive life span, when they're paying into the government.
I haven't read all of this, but my take on this is generally that I don't care if people smoke as long as they do it far away from me. I would be very upset if there was someone smoking at a magic tournament I attended, but don't really have a problem with people smoking outside.
When I was younger, there was magic night at a mini-mall near my house I would go to. This was in the 90's, before a lot of the indoor smoking laws were passed, and there were a number of people who smoked heavily there. Being 13 and kind of shy, I was not overly inclined to ask them to stop, so I stayed even though I would get headaches and sore throats almost immediately. After one particularly long game against a chain smoker, I ended up coming down with Bronchitis and missing a week of school. Now that I am older, I wouldn't put up with that. If people do it outside away from me though, then the worst I have to put up with is a mild headache when I walk past them entering the store, which dissipates pretty quickly.
I don't buy the argument that smoker's increased health care costs somehow give society the right to boss them around. They pay huge amounts of tax on cigarettes precisely for this reason, to offset government medical costs. Further, smokers are much more likely to do what my uncle did; pay social security and medicare for 35 years, then die before retirement from lung cancer or a heart attack. From a societal standpoint, this is about as far away from being a burden as you can get; most of the years smoking cuts off someone's life are usually from retirement, where you would be a net taker from the government. Smoking much less frequently interferes too much with someone's productive life span, when they're paying into the government.
Holy logic batman! You better cut that out before you hurt yourself! These forums are rather intolerant of sensible arguments!
I, too, am sick and tired of the "smokers burden healthcare" nonsense. Does nobody realize how high the tax per pack is? It's more than $2 a pack in CA, and in places like NYC it's something like $5 per pack. That's the TAX ON THE PACK.
Holy logic batman! You better cut that out before you hurt yourself! These forums are rather intolerant of sensible arguments!
I, too, am sick and tired of the "smokers burden healthcare" nonsense. Does nobody realize how high the tax per pack is? It's more than $2 a pack in CA, and in places like NYC it's something like $5 per pack. That's the TAX ON THE PACK.
While that logic sounds good in a quick forum post it doesn't cover the many different costs of smokers on our society and healthcare.
The main reason that you should quit smoking? It makes your cards stink and if you smoke enough around them they turn brown on the edges are are no longer NM even if they are in sleeves. I've seen it many times.
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The main reason that you should quit smoking? It makes your cards stink and if you smoke enough around them they turn brown on the edges are are no longer NM even if they are in sleeves. I've seen it many times.
A lot of those "costs to society" primarily afflict the smoker, however. They pay through higher taxes, higher insurance, lower job performance. These lost productivity things assume that a smoker's output belongs to society, when it really belongs to them; it is their business (and their employer's) how much they produce. The true cost that would justify further taxing or restricting smoker's behavior would the be cost that they're not paying and passing on to everyone else, and while these costs exist, I believe they are probably covered adequately by the taxation.
The CDC doesn't say how much of the treatment costs are paid by government run programs vs. the smokers themselves, for example. They also count all the smokers dying as a negative, when that cost is again, not borne by the rest of society. It actually -helps- everyone except themselves and their loved ones by pulling them out of the retirement pool before they can collect on all the money they put in, leaving more for everyone else. I suspect that over a lifetime, a smoker has a higher percentage of their time spent being productive than a non-smoker; you chop an average of 10 years of life expectancy off the end of their lives, where they wouldn't be working anyway, in exchange for something like 8 extra lost days of productivity a year.
This all being said, I am on board with smoking being a terrible, terrible idea. Lighting your money on fire to poison yourself is just a bad idea no matter how you slice it. But if an adult that isn't part of my family wants to do it for some reason, I'm not going to try and stop them. It is their life, and their choice. Just don't do it around me.
This all being said, I am on board with smoking being a terrible, terrible idea. Lighting your money on fire to poison yourself is just a bad idea no matter how you slice it. But if an adult that isn't part of my family wants to do it for some reason, I'm not going to try and stop them. It is their life, and their choice. Just don't do it around me.
Something we can agree on!
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A lot of those "costs to society" primarily afflict the smoker, however. They pay through higher taxes, higher insurance, lower job performance. These lost productivity things assume that a smoker's output belongs to society, when it really belongs to them; it is their business (and their employer's) how much they produce. The true cost that would justify further taxing or restricting smoker's behavior would the be cost that they're not paying and passing on to everyone else, and while these costs exist, I believe they are probably covered adequately by the taxation.
It makes it hard to take your opinion on whether or not the taxation covers the increased burden on society seriously when you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of economics, as in the bold sentence.
The CDC doesn't say how much of the treatment costs are paid by government run programs vs. the smokers themselves, for example. They also count all the smokers dying as a negative, when that cost is again, not borne by the rest of society. It actually -helps- everyone except themselves and their loved ones by pulling them out of the retirement pool before they can collect on all the money they put in, leaving more for everyone else. I suspect that over a lifetime, a smoker has a higher percentage of their time spent being productive than a non-smoker; you chop an average of 10 years of life expectancy off the end of their lives, where they wouldn't be working anyway, in exchange for something like 8 extra lost days of productivity a year.
As a healthcare provider, I can say the increase in medical care costs are not because smoking caused pathologies are expensive to treat, but because smoking damage to the cardiopulmonary system effects the entire body anytime you get sick or injured, a lifetime smoker's body takes about 30% longer to go through its natural healing/recovery process. They are not only more prone to pathologies related the actual smoking, but anytime they get sick or injured for any reason at all, they take a lot longer to recover, which means increased medical bills, and more time spent off of work. An injury that a person with a full intact cardiopulminary system might be able to recover from, like a serious back injury, a smoker has a high chance of taking much longer to recover, or never full recovering at all which means we will pay them disability checks, and they can qualify for medicare (which costs the gov a lot more than medicaid, which they might have been on for financial reasons).
A similar argument could be said for an number of other factors like body weight, stress level, etc. But unlike those things, smoking is a choice. There are no confounding genetic or socioeconomic variables that make the argument hard to validate.
Does the taxes on tobacco, and the gain in social security add up to equal the increase in government medicare and disability checks, I honestly don't know, but I am skeptical that they do.
I'm not a smoker myself, I find it feminine and disgusting, but I do "dip", which is no less vile a habit, and I even occasionally use while playing. So far I haven't had a player or store owner take issue but I would stop if asked even if I think me dipping is no worse than the slob eating his greasy chinese food across from me. I feel store owners have every right to ask customers not to loiter and disturb business.
A) Watching someone spit black slime into a cup or soda can turns my stomach to just think about. I would be one that would ask you very nicely to wait until after our match for you to "dip"
B) I entirely agree with you about greasy or otherwise messy food being eaten where people are playing, it is just as gross.
C) Did you really just use "feminine" as a pejorative?
It seems your confusion is due to the fact that I did not specify that the store is in a shopping center. You are right that if the store was downtown or somehow connected to the cities sidewalks that the sidewalk would indeed be public property. Most shops are not downtown so if I want to ask someone to leave my property including my parking lot I can as long as the landlord has given me permission to do so.
I can kick someone out of my store for using school girl sleeves, cursing, etc. and yes it does matter. I can kick someone out of my store just because I do not like them if I want to(I wouldn't, but I could).
The new location that I'm looking at would be a purchase so then I would have even more power to not allow people to smoke in front of my store or parking lot.
So I'm a fascist because I do not want smokers in front of my store but your not a fascist because you want to limit my right to breath clean air? Does your right to smoke somehow supersede my right to clean air?
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The problem is these so-called "curb-smokers" - and I'm not talking MtG/LGS, I mean anywhere in general, and speaking anecdoteally from experience (ie. multiple professionally populated work places with grown adults, etc. - though this also applies I find to many random lower-end businesses) are generally selfish, disrespectful, and not mindful of their environments and more often than not light up right outside doorways and often continue to linger right were everyone else is exposed.
Worst contstructed sentence ever so I'll summarize: I find "curb-smokers" generally linger and loiter on top of public space and entrances where everyone else must be exposed to their filthy smoke. Yes I'm biased, smoking is a deplorable habit.
Just read this one and it highlights the exact problem I'm talking about:
If their in front of the door way then you have every legal right to ask them to move, or have the business move them.
Also, some businesses may not even allow that. Where I work, smokers cannot smoke anywhere on the campus, and must walk to the bench by the street. They especially cannot smoke anywhere near the other buildings we don't own, because those companies could fine us for it.
I agree, smoking is a disgusting habit, and those who do it too close to the building are jerks who should be fined, but as long as they are on a sidewalk or public ground, you can't force them to stop. (even worse sentece structure).
Actually my LGS owner dips as well. Doesn't bother me, and I've never smelled his breath. Actually I think dip and vapor cigarettes are an acceptable comprimise.
Yes, another list of decks sig.
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
WBR Zurgo Helmsmasher Equipment
BBB Erebos, God of the Dead Goodstuff
UBG The Mimeoplasm
URG All Creatures Animar, Soul of Elements
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion sac and combo
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius
WUG Rafiq of the Many Aggro-Control
UBR Nekusar, The Mindrazer
WRG Mayael, the Anima
Casual:
BB Ad Nauseam Combo
BB Burn
The store is in a shopping center. This means that there is a landlord. No one buys retail space. The land is almost always owned by someone else. This is because it's a lot more cost effective when you don't have to spend $100,000 to buy a building to put a store you honestly can't expect to not fail.
The sidewalk in front of a store in a shopping center could be owned by the shopping center, but if it's connected to a road, chances are it's owned by the city. Most sidewalks are owned by the city, all roads are owned by government.
You can not say that people aren't allowed to do something completely legal outside of your rented property when you are renting property.
You are wrong about what the law says you can and can not do. For instance, the law is very serious about not discriminating.
Yes, you can kick someone out of your store for no reason, even if you only don't like them. There is probably a reason why there aren't many stores that do this, though. Namely they'd go out of business.
And according to the dictionary, the second definition of fascism is : "a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control". Basically saying 'I don't like that you have X right, and if you excercise said right in the near vicinity of my store such as the law allows you to do, then you will be banned from my establishment' is pretty damn close to fascism on a small scale.
And the other stores in the area will be glad to take the business of your former patrons. Especially the non smokers who will eventually leave your store after you impart more of your rules.
You do realize that I'm arguing against smoking and yes I am a store owner but no I do not do a lot of the things I'm arguing about. I'm saying that store owners could do them.
My previous reply had clear answers to the rest of your post but it seems you ignored them so I think it's best that we just agree to disagree. I actually rent retail space and know the laws fairly well having rented a retail location and I'm now in the process of buying a retail location. I do not see any further benefit for us having this disagreement but do hope that you will speak to someone you know that is well versed in the topic that you trust. I believe that you will find that a few of your assumptions are inaccurate.
Just for the record I'm extremely nice to all of my customers including the ones that smoke. When I ask them to move to the side of the building I do so in a very respectful way. Please do not let my argument come across in a way that makes it seem like that is how I actually treat my customers.
Have a good day, thank you for the discussion and I will double check a few of the points you made just to insure that I am not in the wrong.
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1. When you are having a strong urge, find something else to chew/suck on. I chewed up quite a few pens while I was quitting.
2. Figure out a mantra and repeat it to yourself over and over when you are tempted, something like: "I don't need to smoke" or "Cigarettes have no power over me." It sounds silly, but this really helped me through some tough times.
3. Bumming is okay, buying isn't. Take this one with a grain of salt; it was true for me, but may not be for everyone. Buying a pack starts you down a slippery slope that normally ends up with you back on a pack a day. Bumming a cigarette every now and then when you are around people who are smoking relieves some of the tension and isn't a big deal provided you don't have regular access to cigs.
4. Quit with a buddy! My girlfriend and I quit together, and having someone going through the same thing as me was really helpful.
5. Just because you tried and failed before, doesn't mean you will fail this time! This one is huge. Most people who are heavy smokers will not be able to quit the first time out. I was a pack a day man for over a decade and over the course of those years I tried to quit at least four or five times before it finally stuck. Don't beat yourself up if you fall off the wagon. You really have to make up your mind that you are done in order to succeed.
You can scream about your rights all you want, but even if you have the right to smoke, a store owner has the right to ask you to leave the area and non smokers have a right to call you disgusting as much as we want.
And once you are in the store, forget it. A store owner can have someone who hasn't showered removed because they are disgusting and they have the right to tell a smoker to stop stinking up the store and the merchandise.
Asking someone to smoke on the side of a building is absolutely fine, and no one should have a problem with it. The minute you tell them they are not allowed at your store, you are literally throwing away money.
Perhaps the reasons you do not take the actions you have prescribed in your previous posts is because you know that they are foolish actions to take, that will cost you money and eventually your business?
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
I don't think you quite grasp how personal rights work. If someone is smoking on grounds legal for it there's not much a police officer can do. However if you are vehemently calling them a disgusting chiminey to their face you have violated their rights.
Ofcourse an owner can throw someone smelly out of their shop. I don't think that was a topic I brought up. I just said you can't stop someone from smoking on legal grounds. I never said you had to let them back in.
Yes, another list of decks sig.
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
WBR Zurgo Helmsmasher Equipment
BBB Erebos, God of the Dead Goodstuff
UBG The Mimeoplasm
URG All Creatures Animar, Soul of Elements
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion sac and combo
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius
WUG Rafiq of the Many Aggro-Control
UBR Nekusar, The Mindrazer
WRG Mayael, the Anima
Casual:
BB Ad Nauseam Combo
BB Burn
great business model.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
I never said anything about banning smokers from my store. I said I would like to ban smoking near my store. I do not feel like having smokers in-front of my store does anything to benefit my store and it does a lot of damage to the image of my store. Why should I continue to allow it? Half of the people that sit out there and smoke are not even customers and are just friends of friends that are hanging out. I feel like you keep twisting my words into things that I did not say.
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When I was younger, there was magic night at a mini-mall near my house I would go to. This was in the 90's, before a lot of the indoor smoking laws were passed, and there were a number of people who smoked heavily there. Being 13 and kind of shy, I was not overly inclined to ask them to stop, so I stayed even though I would get headaches and sore throats almost immediately. After one particularly long game against a chain smoker, I ended up coming down with Bronchitis and missing a week of school. Now that I am older, I wouldn't put up with that. If people do it outside away from me though, then the worst I have to put up with is a mild headache when I walk past them entering the store, which dissipates pretty quickly.
I don't buy the argument that smoker's increased health care costs somehow give society the right to boss them around. They pay huge amounts of tax on cigarettes precisely for this reason, to offset government medical costs. Further, smokers are much more likely to do what my uncle did; pay social security and medicare for 35 years, then die before retirement from lung cancer or a heart attack. From a societal standpoint, this is about as far away from being a burden as you can get; most of the years smoking cuts off someone's life are usually from retirement, where you would be a net taker from the government. Smoking much less frequently interferes too much with someone's productive life span, when they're paying into the government.
Holy logic batman! You better cut that out before you hurt yourself! These forums are rather intolerant of sensible arguments!
I, too, am sick and tired of the "smokers burden healthcare" nonsense. Does nobody realize how high the tax per pack is? It's more than $2 a pack in CA, and in places like NYC it's something like $5 per pack. That's the TAX ON THE PACK.
While that logic sounds good in a quick forum post it doesn't cover the many different costs of smokers on our society and healthcare.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5745a3.htm
http://www.nbcnews.com/health/smoking-employees-cost-6-000-year-more-study-finds-6C10182631
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/07/the-cost-of-a-smoker-5816/?_r=0
The main reason that you should quit smoking? It makes your cards stink and if you smoke enough around them they turn brown on the edges are are no longer NM even if they are in sleeves. I've seen it many times.
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A lot of those "costs to society" primarily afflict the smoker, however. They pay through higher taxes, higher insurance, lower job performance. These lost productivity things assume that a smoker's output belongs to society, when it really belongs to them; it is their business (and their employer's) how much they produce. The true cost that would justify further taxing or restricting smoker's behavior would the be cost that they're not paying and passing on to everyone else, and while these costs exist, I believe they are probably covered adequately by the taxation.
The CDC doesn't say how much of the treatment costs are paid by government run programs vs. the smokers themselves, for example. They also count all the smokers dying as a negative, when that cost is again, not borne by the rest of society. It actually -helps- everyone except themselves and their loved ones by pulling them out of the retirement pool before they can collect on all the money they put in, leaving more for everyone else. I suspect that over a lifetime, a smoker has a higher percentage of their time spent being productive than a non-smoker; you chop an average of 10 years of life expectancy off the end of their lives, where they wouldn't be working anyway, in exchange for something like 8 extra lost days of productivity a year.
This all being said, I am on board with smoking being a terrible, terrible idea. Lighting your money on fire to poison yourself is just a bad idea no matter how you slice it. But if an adult that isn't part of my family wants to do it for some reason, I'm not going to try and stop them. It is their life, and their choice. Just don't do it around me.
Something we can agree on!
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These things are more of a problem IMO, especially when people are using the scented ones, they actually smell TERRIBLE.
At a recent SCG a dude next to me kept using his and he smelled like a ****in dumpster, it was absolutely disgusting.
It makes it hard to take your opinion on whether or not the taxation covers the increased burden on society seriously when you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of economics, as in the bold sentence.
As a healthcare provider, I can say the increase in medical care costs are not because smoking caused pathologies are expensive to treat, but because smoking damage to the cardiopulmonary system effects the entire body anytime you get sick or injured, a lifetime smoker's body takes about 30% longer to go through its natural healing/recovery process. They are not only more prone to pathologies related the actual smoking, but anytime they get sick or injured for any reason at all, they take a lot longer to recover, which means increased medical bills, and more time spent off of work. An injury that a person with a full intact cardiopulminary system might be able to recover from, like a serious back injury, a smoker has a high chance of taking much longer to recover, or never full recovering at all which means we will pay them disability checks, and they can qualify for medicare (which costs the gov a lot more than medicaid, which they might have been on for financial reasons).
A similar argument could be said for an number of other factors like body weight, stress level, etc. But unlike those things, smoking is a choice. There are no confounding genetic or socioeconomic variables that make the argument hard to validate.
Does the taxes on tobacco, and the gain in social security add up to equal the increase in government medicare and disability checks, I honestly don't know, but I am skeptical that they do.
A) Watching someone spit black slime into a cup or soda can turns my stomach to just think about. I would be one that would ask you very nicely to wait until after our match for you to "dip"
B) I entirely agree with you about greasy or otherwise messy food being eaten where people are playing, it is just as gross.
C) Did you really just use "feminine" as a pejorative?
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