I don't see how he is crucified, Burst lightning is a common, the chances both people to either side of him are in red are low. It's possible he'll be passed one. Taking one value pick in 45 cards is not bad. Especially since the repeated cards get worse and worse as you get more. So he might get passed a pack with a burst lightning, only want one and wish he'd taken the goyf
"That said I wouldn't call the people espousing the other position "online bullies". They are jerks at worst"
I could agree with that if all the people making the comments weren't all from the same pro team, it smacks of an elitist bulling attitude from them. It's not like these are flippant comments made to someone off hand you'd think if you're going to post things on twitter with thousands of followers you'd take 30 seconds to engage your brain. Especially if you're income depends on people not thinking you're an a**hole.
I'm also extremely disappointed in some of the pros who have come out against him. People like Turtenwald, Jensen, Zvi... whatever. I don't care, I aways got the impression from interviews and watching them play that they were snobby elitists anyway (watching Turtenwald's salty face as my countryman Stephen Madden crushed him on camera with Strength from the Fallen at Pro Tour Dragons of Tarkir was amazing). This reaction from them doesn't exactly surprise me. But Paul Rietzl, Reid Duke, Wrapter? I expected better of them, and I'm disheartened to see them joining in the online bullying campaign.
That match was brilliant. I, too, do love watching egotistical pros get crushed.
I'm with everyone else, in that the pro's responding negatively towards someone else's draft pick bothers me more than the draft pick itself. They're ruining the integrity of the game more than that rare draft.
I take the foil goyf there 100% of the time, assuming I get to keep the cards. Magic is a game, and trying to stay in the game is just as important as being able to play at a high level. Maintaining status as an "MTG pro" is a pretty miserable existence. Some people can subsidize this by getting sponsored and writing articles and the like, but unless you're david williams or eric froelich who've made mad money playing poker, chances are, you've probably got a larger networth in magic cards than in your bank account. And, let's not forget, the GP prize purse isn't exactly overflowing.
Playing MTGO is a good example. I watch some of the CFB drafts, and one of them was LSV passing a Pack 1 past in flames (this was a flashback draft a few months back). I take that there 100% of the time, because it guarantees that no matter what happens, I'll be able to afford to draft again with that single pick. If taking the goyf means that he will be able to attend an extra GP, then I completely agree with his decision, and would probably do the same. Being and MTG pro is all nice and good, but doesn't actually mean anything if you're spending more money just to travel to all these events than you can actually expect to make.
It is ridiculous that those pros are bagging on him. I mean, really? The difference between having the burst lightning and the next best card in his deck makes such a little percentage difference I can't honestly see how any intelligent person would not take the guaranteed super money card. Honestly it just makes them all like stuck up elitists.
Wow, how ******* pathetic. These idiots need to realize that most magic players, even most GP grinders, are not in their position where money for cards is a 0% concern.
For me, the most disappointing on this all is Owen Turtenwald's disgusting Twitter campaign. I lost all respect for this guy, as well as those who felt compelled to make pathetic statements like "I've devoted my life to Magic. It's very disappointing to see that one of my peers would sell out for so little" (Duke), "One could even say: If you can be bribed into rare drafting that easily, why are you spending all this time playing Magic?" (Mowshowitz) "I just lost all respect for Pascal Maynard." (Jensen). "have some goddamn respect for the game" (Utter-Leyton)
I have lost respect for all these guys. I do not know what motivates them to make such statements. It makes them look like elitist, pathetic poseurs beating one man who made a quite reasonable decision under time and stress restraint. I wonder how many of those smartasses would do otherwise in the same situation.
It just unveiled the true characters of some people, and what was seen is not pretty. And I am not talking about Maynard here.
Owen Turtenwald has always been a pretty huge douche canoe. Go watch some of his CFB draft videos. No one else gets as salty losing in MODO, and he almost always tries to cut down his opponents for their deck choices/lines of play. It's really pathetic. The best is listening to him nerd rage when he loses to someone playing a deck he doesn't think is good. He blames it on everything but himself.
so..he took a rare that could pose a threat over a common he was likely to see in another pack? seems kind of a no brainier if you ask me..i mean..isn't hate drafting a part of determining the meta while drafting?
also, honestly cant think of a single person, pro or not, that would pass that goyf. Pascel is just getting all this hate dumped on him when its clearly unwarranted.
tl/dr: move along, nothing to see here.
I would 100% take the goyf here, but no, in terms of pure strategy taking the goyf was 100% wrong.
First, you should never, ever hate draft overt taking a strong playable (in a normal draft - team draft is a different story). When you factor in that you don't play every other person, and people don't draw all their cards, the chance of you actually playing against the card you passed is very low.
Second, goyf is not good in normal limited. Without fetches, cantrips, and lots of removal/cards interacting, it's way too often a 1/2 or 2/3 got 1G, which is just not great. It's certainly not strong enough that you are worried about your opponent having it.
I'd take the Goyf, and anyone who would attack my character for doing so is in the wrong. It's okay to disagree with a draft pick, but disdain is by no means warranted, especially when a foil Goyf is involved.
Goyf over Burst Lightning is the incorrect pick. Pascal has already admitted as much on his Facebook post. The issue, of course, isn't that Pascal made the wrong pick. It's that a bunch of formerly well-respected pros decided that the game was more important than a fellow human being, and that their sanctimony was more important than the game.
The problem I have with it all is the hypocrisy: "We don't play for the money." "Raredrafting is disrepectful to the game." These same guys routinely ID their way into top 8s rather than risk their spot (and money!) for the higher seed. I have seen no argument that treating the Pro Tour as a 15 round tournament with an optional ID round is showing respect for the game. The only real argument is that the higher seed doesn't convey a significant enough advantage to make playing out the last round worth it in terms of EV, which would be fine except for the fact that these same guys have been arguing that it's not about EV, it's about trying to secure every possible edge you can to win the whole thing. If that's the case, then the defense of IDing really does boil down to "I'm not going to risk my spot in the top 8 for the right to play first." That's the exact kind of hedging that Pascal was getting lambasted for.
By deciding to go to VP Vegas, with its huge attendance, book a flight, hotel, pay for restaurants... you've already spent more than a foil goyf and given up on EV calculations.
To throw away all these expenses in the final top 8 is an error in judgment. If you won't gun for the top in the final, when are you going to do it? Talking about EV doesn't make sense. You're not playing in GP top-8 often enough to try to even out your gains. To me, taking the goyf is like not sprinting at the end of a race when you're among the potential winners. That's not a time to hold back.
That being said, insulting him is totally out of line.
OTOH, now with all the publicity it got, he will make a killing on eBay and it will be remembered. On-camera bad decisions leading to a loss tend to do that, like the time Finkel chose not to block Kibler. The parallel are stricking given that Pascal lost in part to burst lightning in the semi-final.
There isn't a "top 8" stamp, there have been at least 3 foil goyfs with the stamps showing. That being said, he made the right choice, the lightning would only give him a marginal advantage. Would you pay $500 to play with a burst lightning in your draft deck?
As you said it's the only foil MM15 tarmogoyf with a gp stamp on it. Even if I didn't win that's some pretty sick memorabilia.
This isn't true. There are at least 3 other stamped foil mm2 goyfs from vegas, and I'd imagine more from the other 2 gps. I'm not sure why people keep repeating this as it's not true.
I lost alot of respect for the other pros in this fiasco, especially Owen. I don't think I'll ever take his advice legitimately again.
There's no reason not to take his advice about the game itself. This incident doesn't somehow make him a bad player. Magic players aren't that different from pro athletes or other celebrities in that regard: just because you admire them for their play skill doesn't mean you should admire them as human beings. Conversely, just because you don't look up to someone doesn't mean they don't have something valuable to teach you in some specific area.
I lost alot of respect for the other pros in this fiasco, especially Owen. I don't think I'll ever take his advice legitimately again.
There's no reason not to take his advice about the game itself. This incident doesn't somehow make him a bad player. Magic players aren't that different from pro athletes or other celebrities in that regard: just because you admire them for their play skill doesn't mean you should admire them as human beings. Conversely, just because you don't look up to someone doesn't mean they don't have something valuable to teach you in some specific area.
He claims you should play to win... but will draw into top 8... yes. Makes perfect sense
I lost alot of respect for the other pros in this fiasco, especially Owen. I don't think I'll ever take his advice legitimately again.
I would say that just because he is blatantly wrong in this situation doesn't mean he is wrong in other advice. Most of the time, it is correct to listen to Owen Turtenwald's advice in MAGIC. Nobody's perfect though...
That being said, Pascal Maynard made an amazing choice. I originally thought that there was some leeway in making the decision; now I realize that NOT TAKING THE Foil Goyf is horribly incorrect here. I actually didn't realize how valuable it would be and donating 50% to charity with the salty comments has made this card explode into the stratosphere. It is currently at $2,275 with 6 days left.
I'm really glad to see the apology by Reid Duke. He is a Pro who I've always considered not just one of the best in world, but a great spokesperson for the game.
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They were always going to apologise, as soon as the community and rest of the pros turned against them.
This. The apologies really mean very little at this point as they pressure was on. I personally drafted an email to Channel Fireball about sponsoring such shameful players. I think everyone should do so as well. They should be reprimanded or dropped from CFB sponsorship for this, imo.
So for me A round trip flight to Vegas, a hotel, and registration for the GP would be just over 700 dollars. That's no small amount of money. Especially considering that's not including food etc. Now certainly the Burst Lightning would have given him a few percentage points but that's not likely to matter. Saying that he would have drawn the BL rather than whatever is ridiculous.
Point is I would have windmill slammed that Goyf so hard and fast it would have broken the table. I'm also not the good guy that Pascal is to donate half to charity. That thing is currently selling for 5 months of my rent. I have little interest in what the pros would think of me or what I was doing to the integrity of the game. Especially considering the fact that Pascal was the one in the Top 8 not any of the people disparaging him.
I lost alot of respect for the other pros in this fiasco, especially Owen. I don't think I'll ever take his advice legitimately again.
There's no reason not to take his advice about the game itself. This incident doesn't somehow make him a bad player. Magic players aren't that different from pro athletes or other celebrities in that regard: just because you admire them for their play skill doesn't mean you should admire them as human beings. Conversely, just because you don't look up to someone doesn't mean they don't have something valuable to teach you in some specific area.
He claims you should play to win... but will draw into top 8... yes. Makes perfect sense
Yes, I've been trying to get some of the more sanctimonious pros to explain themselves on that point on Twitter, but none of them have responded. Seems pretty clear to me that drawing into Top 8 only gives you a better chance of making top 8 (guarantee vs. what we'll call a coin flip), but that once you're there you have a worse chance of winning due to lower seed (I asked LSV about how big a deal going first is and while the advantage of going first isn't humongous, it's still an edge). I mean, essentially these guys walk into the last round of Swiss and are told "We'll let you into top 8, but you have to go second. Deal?" And so they willingly take that handicap, which to me as a casual observer at least is incompatible with "give yourself the best chance of winning." You already have to win 3 matches in a row when you make top 8, so the possibility of losing the last round of Swiss shouldn't be a consideration.
In terms of poker, what gives you the best chance to win the WSOP? Folding your way into the final table as the short stack? Or making a few late moves here and there to improve your chip position, even if it means risking being the bubble boy?
The situation is even more unclear when you look at people who were locks for top 8 and then scooped to a friend so they'd make top 8 too. Imagine Owen scooping to Huey so they both make top 8. In what universe is a top 8 with Huey in it easier for Owen to win than one without?
What my previous comment meant, though, was if Owen puts out an article on how to play a certain deck, I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by boycotting the article based on this incident if you're primarily motivated by improving your game. If he puts out an article on Magic etiquette or something similar, sure, feel free to pass on that one.
I'm really glad to see the apology by Reid Duke. He is a Pro who I've always considered not just one of the best in world, but a great spokesperson for the game.
Owen and Huey's takes didn't surprise me. Wrapter's was more aggressive than I would have expected, but Reid's was the stomach punch. I kept reading it over and over again and actually feeling bad for him, because I was 99% sure he would deeply and sincerely regret it later in the day. Looks like that turned out to be correct, and if he's anything like I think he is, this is legitimately eating him up inside.
He claims you should play to win... but will draw into top 8... yes. Makes perfect sense
I have never made the top 8 of a Grand Prix, so I don't know what I would personally do. However, I have made the top 8 of PTQs and any other Competitive REL tournament below Grand Prix. Most of these times, I have not split in the top 8. If I feel like I have a good chance of winning, there's no way that I'm splitting. I realize that the EV is usually better to split, but happily I can say that I've come ahead by NOT splitting. Many times, players have been salty about it, but usually they don't figure out who is the non-vote for "split."
I do ID into the top 8. That is completely different. But if I split and then win the tournament, I just essentially "gave" money to other people, which I can't afford to do. At least until I am a millionaire; then I would definitely split every time because I would be playing only to prove myself. I have even played with Pros before that have replied "yes" to split, so I know that most would split in these situations. Imagine their surprise when 1 person didn't vote the same way as them.
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But...I'm not a pro looking to maximize my pro points. If that were the case then the math would get a lot muddier.
I could agree with that if all the people making the comments weren't all from the same pro team, it smacks of an elitist bulling attitude from them. It's not like these are flippant comments made to someone off hand you'd think if you're going to post things on twitter with thousands of followers you'd take 30 seconds to engage your brain. Especially if you're income depends on people not thinking you're an a**hole.
That match was brilliant. I, too, do love watching egotistical pros get crushed.
I'm with everyone else, in that the pro's responding negatively towards someone else's draft pick bothers me more than the draft pick itself. They're ruining the integrity of the game more than that rare draft.
I take the foil goyf there 100% of the time, assuming I get to keep the cards. Magic is a game, and trying to stay in the game is just as important as being able to play at a high level. Maintaining status as an "MTG pro" is a pretty miserable existence. Some people can subsidize this by getting sponsored and writing articles and the like, but unless you're david williams or eric froelich who've made mad money playing poker, chances are, you've probably got a larger networth in magic cards than in your bank account. And, let's not forget, the GP prize purse isn't exactly overflowing.
Playing MTGO is a good example. I watch some of the CFB drafts, and one of them was LSV passing a Pack 1 past in flames (this was a flashback draft a few months back). I take that there 100% of the time, because it guarantees that no matter what happens, I'll be able to afford to draft again with that single pick. If taking the goyf means that he will be able to attend an extra GP, then I completely agree with his decision, and would probably do the same. Being and MTG pro is all nice and good, but doesn't actually mean anything if you're spending more money just to travel to all these events than you can actually expect to make.
Wow, how ******* pathetic. These idiots need to realize that most magic players, even most GP grinders, are not in their position where money for cards is a 0% concern.
What ******** reponses. **** these guys.
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Owen Turtenwald has always been a pretty huge douche canoe. Go watch some of his CFB draft videos. No one else gets as salty losing in MODO, and he almost always tries to cut down his opponents for their deck choices/lines of play. It's really pathetic. The best is listening to him nerd rage when he loses to someone playing a deck he doesn't think is good. He blames it on everything but himself.
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I would 100% take the goyf here, but no, in terms of pure strategy taking the goyf was 100% wrong.
First, you should never, ever hate draft overt taking a strong playable (in a normal draft - team draft is a different story). When you factor in that you don't play every other person, and people don't draw all their cards, the chance of you actually playing against the card you passed is very low.
Second, goyf is not good in normal limited. Without fetches, cantrips, and lots of removal/cards interacting, it's way too often a 1/2 or 2/3 got 1G, which is just not great. It's certainly not strong enough that you are worried about your opponent having it.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
The problem I have with it all is the hypocrisy: "We don't play for the money." "Raredrafting is disrepectful to the game." These same guys routinely ID their way into top 8s rather than risk their spot (and money!) for the higher seed. I have seen no argument that treating the Pro Tour as a 15 round tournament with an optional ID round is showing respect for the game. The only real argument is that the higher seed doesn't convey a significant enough advantage to make playing out the last round worth it in terms of EV, which would be fine except for the fact that these same guys have been arguing that it's not about EV, it's about trying to secure every possible edge you can to win the whole thing. If that's the case, then the defense of IDing really does boil down to "I'm not going to risk my spot in the top 8 for the right to play first." That's the exact kind of hedging that Pascal was getting lambasted for.
To throw away all these expenses in the final top 8 is an error in judgment. If you won't gun for the top in the final, when are you going to do it? Talking about EV doesn't make sense. You're not playing in GP top-8 often enough to try to even out your gains. To me, taking the goyf is like not sprinting at the end of a race when you're among the potential winners. That's not a time to hold back.
That being said, insulting him is totally out of line.
OTOH, now with all the publicity it got, he will make a killing on eBay and it will be remembered. On-camera bad decisions leading to a loss tend to do that, like the time Finkel chose not to block Kibler. The parallel are stricking given that Pascal lost in part to burst lightning in the semi-final.
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This isn't true. There are at least 3 other stamped foil mm2 goyfs from vegas, and I'd imagine more from the other 2 gps. I'm not sure why people keep repeating this as it's not true.
There's no reason not to take his advice about the game itself. This incident doesn't somehow make him a bad player. Magic players aren't that different from pro athletes or other celebrities in that regard: just because you admire them for their play skill doesn't mean you should admire them as human beings. Conversely, just because you don't look up to someone doesn't mean they don't have something valuable to teach you in some specific area.
He claims you should play to win... but will draw into top 8... yes. Makes perfect sense
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I would say that just because he is blatantly wrong in this situation doesn't mean he is wrong in other advice. Most of the time, it is correct to listen to Owen Turtenwald's advice in MAGIC. Nobody's perfect though...
That being said, Pascal Maynard made an amazing choice. I originally thought that there was some leeway in making the decision; now I realize that NOT TAKING THE Foil Goyf is horribly incorrect here. I actually didn't realize how valuable it would be and donating 50% to charity with the salty comments has made this card explode into the stratosphere. It is currently at $2,275 with 6 days left.
I'm really glad to see the apology by Reid Duke. He is a Pro who I've always considered not just one of the best in world, but a great spokesperson for the game.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)This. The apologies really mean very little at this point as they pressure was on. I personally drafted an email to Channel Fireball about sponsoring such shameful players. I think everyone should do so as well. They should be reprimanded or dropped from CFB sponsorship for this, imo.
Point is I would have windmill slammed that Goyf so hard and fast it would have broken the table. I'm also not the good guy that Pascal is to donate half to charity. That thing is currently selling for 5 months of my rent. I have little interest in what the pros would think of me or what I was doing to the integrity of the game. Especially considering the fact that Pascal was the one in the Top 8 not any of the people disparaging him.
If Wizards put foil Tarmogoyfs in every booster pack, players would complain about first-picking them.
| Ad Nauseam
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Big Johnny.
Yes, I've been trying to get some of the more sanctimonious pros to explain themselves on that point on Twitter, but none of them have responded. Seems pretty clear to me that drawing into Top 8 only gives you a better chance of making top 8 (guarantee vs. what we'll call a coin flip), but that once you're there you have a worse chance of winning due to lower seed (I asked LSV about how big a deal going first is and while the advantage of going first isn't humongous, it's still an edge). I mean, essentially these guys walk into the last round of Swiss and are told "We'll let you into top 8, but you have to go second. Deal?" And so they willingly take that handicap, which to me as a casual observer at least is incompatible with "give yourself the best chance of winning." You already have to win 3 matches in a row when you make top 8, so the possibility of losing the last round of Swiss shouldn't be a consideration.
In terms of poker, what gives you the best chance to win the WSOP? Folding your way into the final table as the short stack? Or making a few late moves here and there to improve your chip position, even if it means risking being the bubble boy?
The situation is even more unclear when you look at people who were locks for top 8 and then scooped to a friend so they'd make top 8 too. Imagine Owen scooping to Huey so they both make top 8. In what universe is a top 8 with Huey in it easier for Owen to win than one without?
What my previous comment meant, though, was if Owen puts out an article on how to play a certain deck, I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by boycotting the article based on this incident if you're primarily motivated by improving your game. If he puts out an article on Magic etiquette or something similar, sure, feel free to pass on that one.
Owen and Huey's takes didn't surprise me. Wrapter's was more aggressive than I would have expected, but Reid's was the stomach punch. I kept reading it over and over again and actually feeling bad for him, because I was 99% sure he would deeply and sincerely regret it later in the day. Looks like that turned out to be correct, and if he's anything like I think he is, this is legitimately eating him up inside.
I have never made the top 8 of a Grand Prix, so I don't know what I would personally do. However, I have made the top 8 of PTQs and any other Competitive REL tournament below Grand Prix. Most of these times, I have not split in the top 8. If I feel like I have a good chance of winning, there's no way that I'm splitting. I realize that the EV is usually better to split, but happily I can say that I've come ahead by NOT splitting. Many times, players have been salty about it, but usually they don't figure out who is the non-vote for "split."
I do ID into the top 8. That is completely different. But if I split and then win the tournament, I just essentially "gave" money to other people, which I can't afford to do. At least until I am a millionaire; then I would definitely split every time because I would be playing only to prove myself. I have even played with Pros before that have replied "yes" to split, so I know that most would split in these situations. Imagine their surprise when 1 person didn't vote the same way as them.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)