I have never made the top 8 of a Grand Prix, so I don't know what I would personally do. However, I have made the top 8 of PTQs and any other Competitive REL tournament below Grand Prix. Most of these times, I have not split in the top 8. If I feel like I have a good chance of winning, there's no way that I'm splitting. I realize that the EV is usually better to split, but happily I can say that I've come ahead by NOT splitting. Many times, players have been salty about it, but usually they don't figure out who is the non-vote for "split."
I do ID into the top 8. That is completely different. But if I split and then win the tournament, I just essentially "gave" money to other people, which I can't afford to do. At least until I am a millionaire; then I would definitely split every time because I would be playing only to prove myself. I have even played with Pros before that have replied "yes" to split, so I know that most would split in these situations. Imagine their surprise when 1 person didn't vote the same way as them.
I have no issue with splitting; in fact, I think it's consistent with the "We don't play for money" mantra since all that's left to play for is glory. If I ever made top 8, I'd absolutely vote to split.
I also have no real issue with IDing into top 8 alone, as I would absolutely do that as well. But I'd be doing it purely for the money/PT qualification. That's why I think the "respect the game" nonsense that was leveled against Pascal was hypocritical: IDing into top 8 deprives the tournament of a natural conclusion, which can't possibly be positive for the game, but it's also the kind of guaranteed-money personal decision that no one should be berated for making.
Yeah I understand that. You're saying that if the Pros are against taking the Stamped Foil Goyf, then they are not playing for "the money." If they are not playing for the money, they would most likely not do the EV choice of split.
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These are the same "Pros" that almost always net deck into tournaments and rarely build their own decks. Often overloading tournaments with the same decks and breeding an incestuous metagame. The same "Pros" that don't even pay for cards and have to constantly borrow them from sponsors. Ever been to a Pro Tour? There are literally dozens of "Pro" players running around like chickens-with-their-heads-cut-off.....looking for the last few cards that they didn't bother to get in the weeks leading up to the Pro Tour. They care so much about the sanctity of the game that they don't even own any Magic cards.
The same "Pros" that are splitting the prizes? Or drawing into the Top 8?
Given how many players have been caught cheating I'd not be surprised if some of these outraged "Pros" are even cheaters. Like MTG is so sacred.
Yeah I understand that. You're saying that if the Pros are against taking the Stamped Foil Goyf, then they are not playing for "the money." If they are not playing for the money, they would most likely not do the EV choice of split.
Ah, ok, I see now. I hadn't considered that angle. I could see some pros choosing not to split on principle. I could also see some pros choosing to split because they figure "Now that the money implications are gone, let's just play some Magic and forget about the other stuff" and not necessarily because it's the EV play. I'd be curious to hear various pros' takes on whether they split and why or why not.
Not sure why others got so upset about the pick. Most people would do it. As far as any apologies made by other 'pros' they're only making them because sponsors are putting pressure on them. I doubt any of them are sincere.
I was watching the live stream when Pascal flipped up the foil Goyf. It was a big moment and fun to watch him mulling over what to do. He inspected the front AND back of the card, which was hilarious and made me laugh. The commentators were so hyped while he made his decision, asking something like, "Alright Pascal, what are you made of?" You could tell it was such a hard decision for him. When he picked the Goyf, I literally cheered. It was a really fun moment to watch unfold.
I was watching the live stream when Pascal flipped up the foil Goyf. It was a big moment and fun to watch him mulling over what to do. He inspected the front AND back of the card, which was hilarious and made me laugh. The commentators were so hyped while he made his decision, asking something like, "Alright Pascal, what are you made of?" You could tell it was such a hard decision for him. When he picked the Goyf, I literally cheered. It was a really fun moment to watch unfold.
This, I agree with your assessment 100%.
I think it is a real shame that this became anything other than an exciting top 8 moment to celebrate along with a record breaking, history making weekend for the game like it should have been.
I don't want to jump on any bandwagons or anything, but I definitely found some of the tweets and such from the pros very disconcerting as well. It almost feels like cheaters like Speck didn't even get the vitriol that this situation produced toward Maynard. That is really sad to me from a community perspective as these guys are faces of the professional circuit for the game and basically just cyber-bullied someone for doing something totally within the rules of the game, that was obviously even encouraged by Wizards when they didn't remove foils from the packs. You know they that on some level they hoped it would happen, and it did, and the response ruined it.
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I was watching the live stream when Pascal flipped up the foil Goyf. It was a big moment and fun to watch him mulling over what to do. He inspected the front AND back of the card, which was hilarious and made me laugh. The commentators were so hyped while he made his decision, asking something like, "Alright Pascal, what are you made of?" You could tell it was such a hard decision for him. When he picked the Goyf, I literally cheered. It was a really fun moment to watch unfold.
I agree with this 100%. The pick really made the draft exciting and fun to watch. It's a shame that the pros have to blow something like this out of proportion. They turned something fun into a pointless argument. At the end of the day, someone is going to pick the Tarmogoyf. If I were in Pascal's shoes, I would have done the same thing. It's a great memento, and there was nothing else that was an auto pick in the pack. The burst lightning was NOT a backbreaking card that had to be picked. Just because he chose the Tarmogoyf doesn't mean he did anything wrong. I still have respect for him regardless of his choice in this one draft.
I was watching the live stream when Pascal flipped up the foil Goyf. It was a big moment and fun to watch him mulling over what to do. He inspected the front AND back of the card, which was hilarious and made me laugh. The commentators were so hyped while he made his decision, asking something like, "Alright Pascal, what are you made of?" You could tell it was such a hard decision for him. When he picked the Goyf, I literally cheered. It was a really fun moment to watch unfold.
I agree with this 100%. The pick really made the draft exciting and fun to watch. It's a shame that the pros have to blow something like this out of proportion. They turned something fun into a pointless argument. At the end of the day, someone is going to pick the Tarmogoyf. If I were in Pascal's shoes, I would have done the same thing. It's a great memento, and there was nothing else that was an auto pick in the pack. The burst lightning was NOT a backbreaking card that had to be picked. Just because he chose the Tarmogoyf doesn't mean he did anything wrong. I still have respect for him regardless of his choice in this one draft.
In all honesty... the negative feed back is provably good for Pascal. The tarmogoyf he got has hit 3k on ebay... with 6 days left. Even with the 50% donation... he's nearly made more money than he would have if he just passed it and won out. >: x
I would just like to compliment Paulo vito DDR for the very initial comment he made about this whole situation: Same. It baffles me and Pascal does not deserve this (IMO completely overblown) reaction. I am glad to see tha many of the pros that behaved so poorly in their initial reactions have at least in some way retracted their comments and apologized to to speak. However, Paulo gained an immense amount of respect for being a Hall of Famer who came to the defense of a fellow Magic player after he got so much unwarranted blowback from this whole situation. It just teaches us that we really need to think before we talk sometimes. Yes, you may completely disagree with the decision he made, but consider your words carefully when you are going to react.
As you said it's the only foil MM15 tarmogoyf with a gp stamp on it. Even if I didn't win that's some pretty sick memorabilia.
This isn't true. There are at least 3 other stamped foil mm2 goyfs from vegas, and I'd imagine more from the other 2 gps. I'm not sure why people keep repeating this as it's not true.
It's not true, you got me, but it's not like there's a large amount of them out there. Even if there were 1000 of those out there (which there almost definitely are not) it's still an incredible souvenir to take away from a GP. We're lucky it's in the hands of someone doing something good with it.
For everyone saying you wouldn't have taken that, stop fooling yourselves. A foil goyf is rare enough but a stamped foil goyf is easily worth your entry, your flight in and back, meals, and its very possible to have some money left over.
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I personally would have taken the Goyf. It just seems like a nice fallback plan if you lose since it isn't like the Burst Lightning guarantees a win.
It looks like the mature people are the one defending him, while the immature people are the ones bullying him. I must say that Duke and Shenhar are a surprise. I've always heard great things about him but I guess it could be an act. Shenhar I never heard anything from before so I guess I just defaulted him to be a nice guy in my mind. People will never learn that its better to keep your mouth shut and let people think better of you than what you actually are.
Owen, I pretty much expect this kind of garbage from. I don't think 100 handed one could have a more backhanded apology than Owen tried to present. He just seems to be a horrible human.
At the same time I am very glad that some of the older and more established players came out and were supportive. I must say that I like PV a lot more now than before.
Overall this seems to be a net negative. As my personal feeling is if I went to any major event I would just hate the experience that someone like Owen would give. Even with so many other better people and better players being more positive, the negative makes me just view the community as worst. Not that I was likely to try out for any event, but this makes gives me pause if the opportunity did present itself. Now if I had the time and the opportunity I would probably be more likely to pass anyway.
I personally would have taken the Goyf. It just seems like a nice fallback plan if you lose since it isn't like the Burst Lightning guarantees a win.
It looks like the mature people are the one defending him, while the immature people are the ones bullying him. I must say that Duke and Shenhar are a surprise. I've always heard great things about him but I guess it could be an act. Shenhar I never heard anything from before so I guess I just defaulted him to be a nice guy in my mind. People will never learn that its better to keep your mouth shut and let people think better of you than what you actually are.
Owen, I pretty much expect this kind of garbage from. I don't think 100 handed one could have a more backhanded apology than Owen tried to present. He just seems to be a horrible human.
At the same time I am very glad that some of the older and more established players came out and were supportive. I must say that I like PV a lot more now than before.
Overall this seems to be a net negative. As my personal feeling is if I went to any major event I would just hate the experience that someone like Owen would give. Even with so many other better people and better players being more positive, the negative makes me just view the community as worst. Not that I was likely to try out for any event, but this makes gives me pause if the opportunity did present itself. Now if I had the time and the opportunity I would probably be more likely to pass anyway.
I wouldn't. $500 pays for a GP trip. And I'm not made of money.
I don't blame him one bit. Goyf is the bird in hand, beating 7 other of the best in the world and winning more than that is the bird in the bush, and very unlikely. I have 0 respect for the pros bashing him. it sure would be nice to have my cards and travel expenses paid for by someone else, along with a healthy income for writing basically sales pitches, but very few people are in that position. they are like politicians, they judge from high above where real life matters.
I also blame Wizards, if the card in a form that was not unique was not $400 I am sure he would have passed the Goyf,but people with bills to pay who don't have everything handed to them won't pass that. It is WotC's fault for having the card be so valuable that this is an issue
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I don't want to jump on any bandwagons or anything, but I definitely found some of the tweets and such from the pros very disconcerting as well. It almost feels like cheaters like Speck didn't even get the vitriol that this situation produced toward Maynard. That is really sad to me from a community perspective as these guys are faces of the professional circuit for the game and basically just cyber-bullied someone for doing something totally within the rules of the game, that was obviously even encouraged by Wizards when they didn't remove foils from the packs. You know they that on some level they hoped it would happen, and it did, and the response ruined it.
You know why the Pros didn't comment on Speck? Because Stephen Speck is a nobody to them, while Pascal Maynard is an accomplished Gold Status (probably will be Platinum soon) Pro. What they did was still wrong obviously. However, it is most certainly contributing to the overinflated current Ebay price right now (along with donating half to charity of course).
For all we know, this was a publicity stunt and some Magic collector is going to be paying a LOT of extra dollars to get his Stamped GP Foil Goyf/Pascal Maynard put down in Tweets etc. etc. Biggest GP of all time Tarmogoyf. It is probably "just as likely this" as some Pro Players not agreeing with his choice. In the old days, many players would say stuff in articles just to move the masses and make a profit, whether it was telling them to play a BAD deck or buy or sell certain cards. Look up Mike Flores, who is most certainly not the only one (but he is the one that everyone knows...).
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I wouldn't. $500 pays for a GP trip. And I'm not made of money.
I didn't mean pass on the card. I meant pass on attending a major event. If I was in the position I would of taken the card. I also admire his courage to do this.
I remember when I first started drafting and reading on message boards about doing the winning move of taking the card for winning over the money. I did it once. Don't remember how the draft went but I would guess I didn't even prize out. Then I thought to myself that what am I trying to accomplish with this. I am trying to win the draft so I can get some packs so that I hopefully open in a prize the expensive card I just passed.
It is nice that all of this controversy has made this Goyf worth at least $3,250 according to ebay. That plus his 3rd place money is already higher than the amount of money he would have gotten from getting first place. Assuming the price keeps going up, he will be able to go to more grand prix using this money than he would have been able to go to off of winning the GP, which seems more useful than that one point.
It is nice that all of this controversy has made this Goyf worth at least $3,250 according to ebay. That plus his 3rd place money is already higher than the amount of money he would have gotten from getting first place. Assuming the price keeps going up, he will be able to go to more grand prix using this money than he would have been able to go to off of winning the GP, which seems more useful than that one point.
I would take the goyf since it is hedging bets if you do not win and the common burst lightning doesn't increase your chances that much. Now, if you take a results oriented view, it is amusing how often he got blown out by burst lighting...if one of those were in his deck instead of someone elses, his deck would be that much better...but it doesn't guarantee a win.
Also, I wonder how much of the saltiness of the tweets is because he ended up not winning. Would the position change had he taken the Goyf and still won?
I would take the goyf since it is hedging bets if you do not win and the common burst lightning doesn't increase your chances that much. Now, if you take a results oriented view, it is amusing how often he got blown out by burst lighting...if one of those were in his deck instead of someone elses, his deck would be that much better...but it doesn't guarantee a win.
Also, I wonder how much of the saltiness of the tweets is because he ended up not winning. Would the position change had he taken the Goyf and still won?
No, because they seem to be objecting to it on principle, not because of his not winning (they tweeted as soon as he drafted it).
I would take the goyf since it is hedging bets if you do not win and the common burst lightning doesn't increase your chances that much. Now, if you take a results oriented view, it is amusing how often he got blown out by burst lighting...if one of those were in his deck instead of someone elses, his deck would be that much better...but it doesn't guarantee a win.
Also, I wonder how much of the saltiness of the tweets is because he ended up not winning. Would the position change had he taken the Goyf and still won?
No, because they seem to be objecting to it on principle, not because of his not winning (they tweeted as soon as he drafted it).
They may have been objecting to it on principle, but they had very few principles when they did so. What they said was clearly out of line. in my estimation. As for being able to pay for a GP out of 500 bucks, that is optimistic when you count in hotel fees, plane fees, and other stuff. In fact, that is ludicrous to even think you can do that. Even if you only count hotel fees and food fees, it is too low.
"That said I wouldn't call the people espousing the other position "online bullies". They are jerks at worst"
I could agree with that if all the people making the comments weren't all from the same pro team, it smacks of an elitist bulling attitude from them. It's not like these are flippant comments made to someone off hand you'd think if you're going to post things on twitter with thousands of followers you'd take 30 seconds to engage your brain. Especially if you're income depends on people not thinking you're an a**hole.
I draw a line between being a jerk and online bullying, and that line is trying to cause significant psychological distress.
I don't think those people are over that line. They are still being jerks and it's still low-level harassment.
It's like IRL laws regarding assault (in Australia) have Assault (basically anything), Assault causing actual bodily harm (breaking someone's finger), assault causing grievous bodily harm (hospitalizing someone for a week) and armed assault (stabbing someone in the stomach). Those sorts of divisions matter, IMO.
None of this is defending the actions being taken.
Having just opened a foil Tarmogoyf myself (out of sheer dumb luck, only my second pack of MM and the last one I planned on opening), I can safely say that no, I would not pass it for Burst Lightning. Even without the controversy, this likely would have been one of the most expensive Goyfs of all time, thanks to the GP top 8 stamp and getting shown on camera at the most massive TCG weekend of all time.
It's like getting a $1000 bonus and your boss suggesting you should go blow it all on a new suit and overpriced restaurant to please a client. Maybe it's the critical difference in sealing the deal and getting a future raise, but your previous suit and restaurant choice were fine, you're a talented salesperson, and you can solve a lot of problems in your life with that money (Student loans! Leaky roof! Empty savings account!). Life goes on outside of our little bubble.
I have no issue with splitting; in fact, I think it's consistent with the "We don't play for money" mantra since all that's left to play for is glory. If I ever made top 8, I'd absolutely vote to split.
I also have no real issue with IDing into top 8 alone, as I would absolutely do that as well. But I'd be doing it purely for the money/PT qualification. That's why I think the "respect the game" nonsense that was leveled against Pascal was hypocritical: IDing into top 8 deprives the tournament of a natural conclusion, which can't possibly be positive for the game, but it's also the kind of guaranteed-money personal decision that no one should be berated for making.
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Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)The same "Pros" that are splitting the prizes? Or drawing into the Top 8?
Given how many players have been caught cheating I'd not be surprised if some of these outraged "Pros" are even cheaters. Like MTG is so sacred.
Ah, ok, I see now. I hadn't considered that angle. I could see some pros choosing not to split on principle. I could also see some pros choosing to split because they figure "Now that the money implications are gone, let's just play some Magic and forget about the other stuff" and not necessarily because it's the EV play. I'd be curious to hear various pros' takes on whether they split and why or why not.
This, I agree with your assessment 100%.
I think it is a real shame that this became anything other than an exciting top 8 moment to celebrate along with a record breaking, history making weekend for the game like it should have been.
I don't want to jump on any bandwagons or anything, but I definitely found some of the tweets and such from the pros very disconcerting as well. It almost feels like cheaters like Speck didn't even get the vitriol that this situation produced toward Maynard. That is really sad to me from a community perspective as these guys are faces of the professional circuit for the game and basically just cyber-bullied someone for doing something totally within the rules of the game, that was obviously even encouraged by Wizards when they didn't remove foils from the packs. You know they that on some level they hoped it would happen, and it did, and the response ruined it.
I agree with this 100%. The pick really made the draft exciting and fun to watch. It's a shame that the pros have to blow something like this out of proportion. They turned something fun into a pointless argument. At the end of the day, someone is going to pick the Tarmogoyf. If I were in Pascal's shoes, I would have done the same thing. It's a great memento, and there was nothing else that was an auto pick in the pack. The burst lightning was NOT a backbreaking card that had to be picked. Just because he chose the Tarmogoyf doesn't mean he did anything wrong. I still have respect for him regardless of his choice in this one draft.
In all honesty... the negative feed back is provably good for Pascal. The tarmogoyf he got has hit 3k on ebay... with 6 days left. Even with the 50% donation... he's nearly made more money than he would have if he just passed it and won out. >: x
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It's not true, you got me, but it's not like there's a large amount of them out there. Even if there were 1000 of those out there (which there almost definitely are not) it's still an incredible souvenir to take away from a GP. We're lucky it's in the hands of someone doing something good with it.
For everyone saying you wouldn't have taken that, stop fooling yourselves. A foil goyf is rare enough but a stamped foil goyf is easily worth your entry, your flight in and back, meals, and its very possible to have some money left over.
It looks like the mature people are the one defending him, while the immature people are the ones bullying him. I must say that Duke and Shenhar are a surprise. I've always heard great things about him but I guess it could be an act. Shenhar I never heard anything from before so I guess I just defaulted him to be a nice guy in my mind. People will never learn that its better to keep your mouth shut and let people think better of you than what you actually are.
Owen, I pretty much expect this kind of garbage from. I don't think 100 handed one could have a more backhanded apology than Owen tried to present. He just seems to be a horrible human.
At the same time I am very glad that some of the older and more established players came out and were supportive. I must say that I like PV a lot more now than before.
Overall this seems to be a net negative. As my personal feeling is if I went to any major event I would just hate the experience that someone like Owen would give. Even with so many other better people and better players being more positive, the negative makes me just view the community as worst. Not that I was likely to try out for any event, but this makes gives me pause if the opportunity did present itself. Now if I had the time and the opportunity I would probably be more likely to pass anyway.
I wouldn't. $500 pays for a GP trip. And I'm not made of money.
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I also blame Wizards, if the card in a form that was not unique was not $400 I am sure he would have passed the Goyf,but people with bills to pay who don't have everything handed to them won't pass that. It is WotC's fault for having the card be so valuable that this is an issue
You know why the Pros didn't comment on Speck? Because Stephen Speck is a nobody to them, while Pascal Maynard is an accomplished Gold Status (probably will be Platinum soon) Pro. What they did was still wrong obviously. However, it is most certainly contributing to the overinflated current Ebay price right now (along with donating half to charity of course).
For all we know, this was a publicity stunt and some Magic collector is going to be paying a LOT of extra dollars to get his Stamped GP Foil Goyf/Pascal Maynard put down in Tweets etc. etc. Biggest GP of all time Tarmogoyf. It is probably "just as likely this" as some Pro Players not agreeing with his choice. In the old days, many players would say stuff in articles just to move the masses and make a profit, whether it was telling them to play a BAD deck or buy or sell certain cards. Look up Mike Flores, who is most certainly not the only one (but he is the one that everyone knows...).
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Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I didn't mean pass on the card. I meant pass on attending a major event. If I was in the position I would of taken the card. I also admire his courage to do this.
I remember when I first started drafting and reading on message boards about doing the winning move of taking the card for winning over the money. I did it once. Don't remember how the draft went but I would guess I didn't even prize out. Then I thought to myself that what am I trying to accomplish with this. I am trying to win the draft so I can get some packs so that I hopefully open in a prize the expensive card I just passed.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
This... all of this.
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Also, I wonder how much of the saltiness of the tweets is because he ended up not winning. Would the position change had he taken the Goyf and still won?
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No, because they seem to be objecting to it on principle, not because of his not winning (they tweeted as soon as he drafted it).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
They may have been objecting to it on principle, but they had very few principles when they did so. What they said was clearly out of line. in my estimation. As for being able to pay for a GP out of 500 bucks, that is optimistic when you count in hotel fees, plane fees, and other stuff. In fact, that is ludicrous to even think you can do that. Even if you only count hotel fees and food fees, it is too low.
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I draw a line between being a jerk and online bullying, and that line is trying to cause significant psychological distress.
I don't think those people are over that line. They are still being jerks and it's still low-level harassment.
It's like IRL laws regarding assault (in Australia) have Assault (basically anything), Assault causing actual bodily harm (breaking someone's finger), assault causing grievous bodily harm (hospitalizing someone for a week) and armed assault (stabbing someone in the stomach). Those sorts of divisions matter, IMO.
None of this is defending the actions being taken.
It's like getting a $1000 bonus and your boss suggesting you should go blow it all on a new suit and overpriced restaurant to please a client. Maybe it's the critical difference in sealing the deal and getting a future raise, but your previous suit and restaurant choice were fine, you're a talented salesperson, and you can solve a lot of problems in your life with that money (Student loans! Leaky roof! Empty savings account!). Life goes on outside of our little bubble.
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