Some of the pros were saying that him possibly losing out on a spot in the world championships would cost him more money than the Goyf would get him. He's already made more money off of the Goyf than he would have for winning Grand Prix Las Vegas and getting into the top 4 of the World Championships.
Poker players will throw hands in tourney play even when they have it, and they will go for it even when they don't. It is part of the game. Assuming your making the worlds and that you will do well is once again ultimately a financial decision and a risk right? you are playing for money at the end of the day, he could scrub out at worlds.
I think the people pointing to the rising value are missing the point Reid, Huey, etc. were going for.
The idea is that they're against making a decision based on out of game reasons in the Top 8 of a GP. It's hard to come up with a sports analogy that specifically fits this situation, but in general you want to be watching athletes going for the win, not playing to maximize their endorsements or anything like that. For what it's worth, I think that PGO honestly wouldn't take the card. The idea that this is jealousy or something is unfounded.
I mean, if you don't agree with them, that's fine. I'm just saying they didn't get more wrong just because the price is going up.
PGO were completely correct when they said that it was bad drafting. Pascal didn't go for the win, which is disappointing, and instead went for immediate financial gain. That goes against the Magic mentality. I don't disagree that Pascal got out of it astonishingly well, but the concept of what he was doing was incorrect in a competitive sense.
You guys realize that these kinds of auctions get a ton of fake bidders, right? Sure, there's a (slim) chance that it's a real 16k bid, and the final bid could even be something stupid like 30k, but I guarantee you the seller will never pay, and then the auction will get relisted.
I think the people pointing to the rising value are missing the point Reid, Huey, etc. were going for.
The idea is that they're against making a decision based on out of game reasons in the Top 8 of a GP. It's hard to come up with a sports analogy that specifically fits this situation, but in general you want to be watching athletes going for the win, not playing to maximize their endorsements or anything like that. For what it's worth, I think that PGO honestly wouldn't take the card. The idea that this is jealousy or something is unfounded.
I mean, if you don't agree with them, that's fine. I'm just saying they didn't get more wrong just because the price is going up.
PGO were completely correct when they said that it was bad drafting. Pascal didn't go for the win, which is disappointing, and instead went for immediate financial gain. That goes against the Magic mentality. I don't disagree that Pascal got out of it astonishingly well, but the concept of what he was doing was incorrect in a competitive sense.
Yes and No. If you are hoping to win money to actually afford future events taking the immediate financial gain gauruntees you the money to play the game you love.
I too would have made the same decision. $500 can easily pay for flight + hotel for a GP for 2-3 nights (if you get discounted rates via price line or other organization).
I would highly recommend avoiding all sales by eBay seller Gurumtg for this incredibly dick-ish behavior. Show him that his 2-minutes of pleasure translates to hundreds if not thousands of dollars of lost revenue.
Well, Gurumtg isn't the top bidder at $16k, so...
I mean, sure, it's possible s***o or l***u also have false bids, but I see 7 distinct accounts bidding more than $5k, which (combined with his actual winnings from the tournament) gets him at least as much money as actually taking first place.
The problem is false incentives. Imagine that every time a professional athlete did some flashy (but competitively useless) maneuver, we rewarded them monetarily. Like 10,000 for spinning a basketball on your finger. You really can't blame players for doing this, you should only blame the game itself for creating incentives other than simply *to win*.
PGO were completely correct when they said that it was bad drafting. Pascal didn't go for the win, which is disappointing, and instead went for immediate financial gain. That goes against the Magic mentality. I don't disagree that Pascal got out of it astonishingly well, but the concept of what he was doing was incorrect in a competitive sense.
He made the highest EV play. In magic especially; players don't really make much money. For a very large amount of them, a foil goyf could probably let them play a whole extra event. In that sense, the pick could be correct *even from a competitive sense*. And it's not like PGO was *throwing*, just sacrificing a small percentage on a single choice which gave him a guaranteed and immediate payoff.
I think many pros out there are still not understanding why this is so upsetting to casual players. Pascal by all we know of him is a good guy. Yet in ways he's gotten harsher feedback than cheaters who have been caught. Pascal only had a short time to make this pick and quite obviously struggled with it. He took the Goyf but by no means should a 45 second choice condemn him to be a disgrace or losing all respect from people. But all of us FMN players and casual players would have made that same pick too. So are we a disgrace too? I know we're probably filthy casuals in their eyes, but that certainly doesn't make me want to look up to them and follow them on social media/twitch/podcasts and such if we feel their opinions/thoughts are such.
I think many pros out there are still not understanding why this is so upsetting to casual players. Pascal by all we know of him is a good guy. Yet in ways he's gotten harsher feedback than cheaters who have been caught. Pascal only had a short time to make this pick and quite obviously struggled with it. He took the Goyf but by no means should a 45 second choice condemn him to be a disgrace or losing all respect from people. But all of us FMN players and casual players would have made that same pick too. So are we a disgrace too? I know we're probably filthy casuals in their eyes, but that certainly doesn't make me want to look up to them and follow them on social media/twitch/podcasts and such if we feel their opinions/thoughts are such.
I think it's upsetting to any magic player that doesn't live in magical Christmas land. Money is money. More money means more events.
It's not that hard of a concept ._.
I think many pros out there are still not understanding why this is so upsetting to casual players. Pascal by all we know of him is a good guy. Yet in ways he's gotten harsher feedback than cheaters who have been caught.
Yeah, I agree with you completely. I mean, he made a suboptimal pick, but that is never a situation that makes it okay to post things like "You disgust me", "I have lost all respect for you", etc and then try to go back later after you get crapped on by the community and be like "jk jk jk I was just criticizing the pick", yeah...okay, whatever helps you sleep at night bub.
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Yeah, I agree with you completely. I mean, he made a suboptimal pick, but that is never a situation that makes it okay to post things like "You disgust me", "I have lost all respect for you", etc and then try to go back later after you get crapped on by the community and be like "jk jk jk I was just criticizing the pick", yeah...okay, whatever helps you sleep at night bub.
I agree with this. I don't even feel many of the apologies were genuine, since most came with a "but" attached and seemed to be just said in order to put the fire out. There are certain pros that I won't read/watch content from anymore. Alternately there are some pros whose opinion has risen for me.
I'm a personal friend of Pascal Maynard. Not incredibly close but we've known each other for 7 years and attended GPs together.
I can say he handled the backlash like a true master, and I'm proud of him in that regard. He's a way-above-average magic player and is socially capable, which is more than we can say of some pros.
The fun thing in there is that he knows he should have picked the burst lightning. He also had only one minute to think about it. He made the wrong call and endured criticism. The fact is that I don't know anything about the lives of Owen Turtlewald, Reid Duke, Zwi Mowshowitz or any other pros who criticized him. I do know however that Pascal was raised in a family which was poor to a level few of you can understand.
He had to sustain his MTG passion by himself since he was extremely young, without any help from Mom or Dad to buy cards. He works part of the year with a very modest wage to afford going to GPs and so far his money earning from pro events have been fairly unimpressive. He needs money to fuel his passion. That need for money was a bias and it made him pick the foil tarmogoyf instead of the card he should have picked. AND HE KNOWS IT. He knows it and acknowledges it.
The fact that people are creating false ebay accounts to create false bids and wreck his attempt at raising charity is sickening.
The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
Shame on you Huey Jensen, shame on you Reid Duke, shame on you Josh-Utter Leyton. Shame on every single one of you who write protest letters demanding sanction for Pascal Maynard. Hope Wizards decide to preserve the integrity and the fundamentals of the game by banning YOU for a long long time.
Agree with absolutely everything you said except this - banning them is not the right response. The right response has already happened. They spouted their idiotic nonsense, everyone said "hey, you guys are idiots and jerks," and several were shamed into apologizing.
Agree with absolutely everything you said except this - banning them is not the right response. The right response has already happened. They spouted their idiotic nonsense, everyone said "hey, you guys are idiots and jerks," and several were shamed into apologizing.
Well this, but I would also like to see CFB drop them from sponsorships. Let them feel what it is like to be concerned about how to pay for that next event.
I still think it's hilarious that people who concede games for friends quote "integrity of the game," "play to win," and other cliche statements. As someone noted earlier, I'm not surprised the the young players who haven't won Pro Tours are the ones whining while the true professionals like Finkel, Kai, etc. are the reasonable ones. I've been playing for nearly 20 years and I actually don't even recognize half of the names of the people shaming him and had to look them up. Sad part is, I now know who they are and my opinion is unfavorable.
I still think it's hilarious that people who concede games for friends quote "integrity of the game," "play to win," and other cliche statements. As someone noted earlier, I'm not surprised the the young players who haven't won Pro Tours are the ones whining while the true professionals like Finkel, Kai, etc. are the reasonable ones. I've been playing for nearly 20 years and I actually don't even recognize half of the names of the people shaming him and had to look them up. Sad part is, I now know who they are and my opinion is unfavorable.
It's not an old vs young thing. See Rietzl, Zvi and Huey for that. Some very supportive posts in Pascal's favor have been from younger players. What I think is that people who have taken a step back from the game like Kai/Finkel/Martel are more voices of reason in this whole thing. Magic no longer is their whole life.
I find it funny that the people who are making a public statement about it, huey, reid, owen and josh are all top 200 lifetime MTG earners (over 100k EACH), are sponsored by teams, by the sounds of discussions on magic tv and vintage / standard super league with LSV and Randy they have the opportunity to go to these events, I'm going to guess at little cost to them both financially, and then you have people like Pascal who are known players, but aren't top earners, don't appear to be on one of the top mtg teams, and has to manage getting to these events by himself. The players who made a big deal about it have the benefit of being able to acquire a playset of foil goyfs if they want, and for pascal, that goyf is going to cover his plane ticket and majority of the expenses of GP Vegas, and will most likely cover the next event he wants to attend.
Much like other people here, lots of respect lost to some of the pro's who were so vocal against this...
There really does seem to be a disconnect here. I think the pros are thinking is that they're disagreeing with Pascal's choice and saying that disrespect of the game calls his character into question. As in Pascal's alone. However they seem to be totally missing that taking a 500 dollar card for a slight drop in WP% of your deck is something hundreds of thousands of magic players would do and that them shaming him is also shaming all of us. Like was said very well up thread, chasing rares is as big a part of this game as anything else. So while I've seen apologies to Pascal, I've not seen any pro comment on why these comments were so hurtful to the magic community in general.
Not to mention the sadness that two days after a great weekend of magic, all that is being talked about is this which is another thing to be upset at.
One thing I find hilarious is that nobody is interested in what happens IF he did pass it? Does it go to the "right" deck or does it just get snapped by the next person to his right?
At what point is it okay to draft the best +EV card?
There really does seem to be a disconnect here. I think the pros are thinking is that they're disagreeing with Pascal's choice and saying that disrespect of the game calls his character into question. As in Pascal's alone. However they seem to be totally missing that taking a 500 dollar card for a slight drop in WP% of your deck is something hundreds of thousands of magic players would do and that them shaming him is also shaming all of us. Like was said very well up thread, chasing rares is as big a part of this game as anything else. So while I've seen apologies to Pascal, I've not seen any pro comment on why these comments were so hurtful to the magic community in general.
Not to mention the sadness that two days after a great weekend of magic, all that is being talked about is this which is another thing to be upset at.
I do think at a certain level of "commentary" there is a point where the "don't take the goyf" discussion is just commentary, it's necessary to have the contrary view to fuel the discussion. I think a lot of the in the moment tweets probably didn't come across the way they were intended, and I haven't really followed further but I can see how the Pros could quickly paint themselves in to a corner trying to defend/justify spur of the moment comments.
Basically it's just social media, exploding over a pretty interesting moment. People say dumb stuff all day long, we just live in an age where it spreads like wildfire the moment you say it.
I do think at a certain level of "commentary" there is a point where the "don't take the goyf" discussion is just commentary, it's necessary to have the contrary view to fuel the discussion. I think a lot of the in the moment tweets probably didn't come across the way they were intended, and I haven't really followed further but I can see how the Pros could quickly paint themselves in to a corner trying to defend/justify spur of the moment comments.
Basically it's just social media, exploding over a pretty interesting moment. People say dumb stuff all day long, we just live in an age where it spreads like wildfire the moment you say it.
Perhaps you're right. If the comments were a lot more "I can't believe he made that pick in the top 8 of a GP. What a dummy." I think I would have taken it better. I only really got upset when terms like disgust and disgrace started getting tossed around.
I do think at a certain level of "commentary" there is a point where the "don't take the goyf" discussion is just commentary, it's necessary to have the contrary view to fuel the discussion. I think a lot of the in the moment tweets probably didn't come across the way they were intended, and I haven't really followed further but I can see how the Pros could quickly paint themselves in to a corner trying to defend/justify spur of the moment comments.
Basically it's just social media, exploding over a pretty interesting moment. People say dumb stuff all day long, we just live in an age where it spreads like wildfire the moment you say it.
Perhaps you're right. If the comments were a lot more "I can't believe he made that pick in the top 8 of a GP. What a dummy." I think I would have taken it better. I only really got upset when terms like disgust and disgrace started getting tossed around.
Sure... but lets face it that's setting a pretty low bar for what upsets us. Let's stop giving SO much weight to a 5 word statement on twitter, I don't know maybe the immediacy of it is what makes it such a great revealer of character, But I just think you loss so much context.
I also don't really understand what is that makes us want to paint everyone as simple heroes or villians so quickly. I get it you think the commentary bagged on Pascal, so you jump in and bag on the commenters it's not REAL just vapid social media entertainment, pick a side and go to WAR!
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Poker players will throw hands in tourney play even when they have it, and they will go for it even when they don't. It is part of the game. Assuming your making the worlds and that you will do well is once again ultimately a financial decision and a risk right? you are playing for money at the end of the day, he could scrub out at worlds.
Take the Goyf, no question.
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PGO were completely correct when they said that it was bad drafting. Pascal didn't go for the win, which is disappointing, and instead went for immediate financial gain. That goes against the Magic mentality. I don't disagree that Pascal got out of it astonishingly well, but the concept of what he was doing was incorrect in a competitive sense.
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Yes and No. If you are hoping to win money to actually afford future events taking the immediate financial gain gauruntees you the money to play the game you love.
I too would have made the same decision. $500 can easily pay for flight + hotel for a GP for 2-3 nights (if you get discounted rates via price line or other organization).
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Splashing for a goyf in limited is a bad idea. Splashing for 2 drops in general is a bad idea.. And Goyf is not amazing in limited..
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I mean, sure, it's possible s***o or l***u also have false bids, but I see 7 distinct accounts bidding more than $5k, which (combined with his actual winnings from the tournament) gets him at least as much money as actually taking first place.
With the exception of DFCs and certain specific cards from Conspiracy, that's against MTR 7.7.
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He made the highest EV play. In magic especially; players don't really make much money. For a very large amount of them, a foil goyf could probably let them play a whole extra event. In that sense, the pick could be correct *even from a competitive sense*. And it's not like PGO was *throwing*, just sacrificing a small percentage on a single choice which gave him a guaranteed and immediate payoff.
I think it's upsetting to any magic player that doesn't live in magical Christmas land. Money is money. More money means more events.
It's not that hard of a concept ._.
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Yeah, I agree with you completely. I mean, he made a suboptimal pick, but that is never a situation that makes it okay to post things like "You disgust me", "I have lost all respect for you", etc and then try to go back later after you get crapped on by the community and be like "jk jk jk I was just criticizing the pick", yeah...okay, whatever helps you sleep at night bub.
I agree with this. I don't even feel many of the apologies were genuine, since most came with a "but" attached and seemed to be just said in order to put the fire out. There are certain pros that I won't read/watch content from anymore. Alternately there are some pros whose opinion has risen for me.
We should start a trend by asking all these "Pros" to sign foil Goyfs.
I can say he handled the backlash like a true master, and I'm proud of him in that regard. He's a way-above-average magic player and is socially capable, which is more than we can say of some pros.
The fun thing in there is that he knows he should have picked the burst lightning. He also had only one minute to think about it. He made the wrong call and endured criticism. The fact is that I don't know anything about the lives of Owen Turtlewald, Reid Duke, Zwi Mowshowitz or any other pros who criticized him. I do know however that Pascal was raised in a family which was poor to a level few of you can understand.
He had to sustain his MTG passion by himself since he was extremely young, without any help from Mom or Dad to buy cards. He works part of the year with a very modest wage to afford going to GPs and so far his money earning from pro events have been fairly unimpressive. He needs money to fuel his passion. That need for money was a bias and it made him pick the foil tarmogoyf instead of the card he should have picked. AND HE KNOWS IT. He knows it and acknowledges it.
The fact that people are creating false ebay accounts to create false bids and wreck his attempt at raising charity is sickening.
Agree with absolutely everything you said except this - banning them is not the right response. The right response has already happened. They spouted their idiotic nonsense, everyone said "hey, you guys are idiots and jerks," and several were shamed into apologizing.
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Well this, but I would also like to see CFB drop them from sponsorships. Let them feel what it is like to be concerned about how to pay for that next event.
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It's not an old vs young thing. See Rietzl, Zvi and Huey for that. Some very supportive posts in Pascal's favor have been from younger players. What I think is that people who have taken a step back from the game like Kai/Finkel/Martel are more voices of reason in this whole thing. Magic no longer is their whole life.
Much like other people here, lots of respect lost to some of the pro's who were so vocal against this...
Not to mention the sadness that two days after a great weekend of magic, all that is being talked about is this which is another thing to be upset at.
At what point is it okay to draft the best +EV card?
I do think at a certain level of "commentary" there is a point where the "don't take the goyf" discussion is just commentary, it's necessary to have the contrary view to fuel the discussion. I think a lot of the in the moment tweets probably didn't come across the way they were intended, and I haven't really followed further but I can see how the Pros could quickly paint themselves in to a corner trying to defend/justify spur of the moment comments.
Basically it's just social media, exploding over a pretty interesting moment. People say dumb stuff all day long, we just live in an age where it spreads like wildfire the moment you say it.
Perhaps you're right. If the comments were a lot more "I can't believe he made that pick in the top 8 of a GP. What a dummy." I think I would have taken it better. I only really got upset when terms like disgust and disgrace started getting tossed around.
Sure... but lets face it that's setting a pretty low bar for what upsets us. Let's stop giving SO much weight to a 5 word statement on twitter, I don't know maybe the immediacy of it is what makes it such a great revealer of character, But I just think you loss so much context.
I also don't really understand what is that makes us want to paint everyone as simple heroes or villians so quickly. I get it you think the commentary bagged on Pascal, so you jump in and bag on the commenters it's not REAL just vapid social media entertainment, pick a side and go to WAR!