Not sure if this has been posted before, but if so, it must have been awhile, and each case is unique.
Me and my friends are big on commander. We do play a bit of modern, but on our weekly meets we always play a couple matches of commander. If it isn't cube night, it may as well be commander night.
I hold my deck close to me. I took multiple deck lists, proxied them up, modified and refined my commander deck before purchasing the cards (save for a few incredibly expensive 30-50 dollar cards I plan to hold off on.) It's good enough to be competitive easily, but stands it's own without it's primary win-con, thus making it fun to play against weaker decks.
My other friend began making a proxy of a deck he wanted to build, and it was not bad. He is weary on some cards, but ultimately has some cards that he knows are a must keep. In time, other friends began making proxies too.
It was fun because I could play my deck competitively and have a challenging, fun game. The problem is, it's been over a few months now, and no one has attempted to purchase any of the cards, but they only play EDH with their proxy deck.
Is this a money problem? Yes and no. They have the free money, but spend it elsewhere. They have said that they "will buy the cards eventually" but not even the cheapest of cards was purchased.
I suppose it bothers me the most because I took the time to craft my deck and actually purchase it, as well as get a lot of the cards signed. I grew onto my deck from the league matches to the casual matches. When we go to the store, we usually can get people to agree to play against their proxies, but I can never play in a league with them. It turned magic into a trading card game into a pre-packaged board game.
I suppose the ultimate question is where everyone else stands. Do you believe that people who only play proxies are sucking some fun out of magic, or that it's perfectly acceptable?
Ultimately, while I don't like it, I don't push their buttons about it. If they enjoy the game in the manor of proxy decks, then who am I to stop that? However, I feel like there is a fine line eventually.
Cill out friend! Not everybody wants to spend a lot of money on Magic even if they can, if it is about money then Magic it's a Pay-To-Win and that's orrible.
I have all of my decks, except the Standard one, proxied I don't like to buy cards, so I wait until someone want to trade the cards I need but that way I won't ever get to get a card like a original dual.
So the most important thing is the game, not the fact that you use proxies or not.
I'd feel stupid if I told someone who hadn't guzzled the Kool Aid that I paid $80+ for a land. Proxying lets me play those sorts of cards without feeling like a sucker with an unneccessarily gimped deck/cube or like a sucker who wastes my money on stupid *****.
The fun of magic does not come from buying the cards. As I said in the original post, I don't instigate the buying of the cards because we all still have fun.
The reason it annoys me is because they aren't able to play at my LGS league with me, because they don't allow proxy (the league hosts prizes, making it more competitive, less casual).
Bradipo: We do still have a lot of fun. I accept that they proxy. My only annoyance of it all is that, as I said, I can't play with them at my LGS league, which is weekly and goes on for a long while. I find the league to be a lot of fun because you encounter many other types of decks, and it's a shame I can't go with them (except one friend who actually bought his deck almost entirely.)
EbonPraetor: Not even *I* voted for "No, and it ruins the fun of the game" at the top. Like I said, it doesn't! Me and my friends still have a great time with proxies. The annoyance of it all is that they continue to claim that they are going to buy it so we can all play league (except for one person who actually bought the deck) but never do so, thus I can never go with them.
midnight_baker: I'd feel stupid if I told someone who was able to buy 90% of his commander via selling and trading cards that they are a sucker who wastes money on stupid *****. Jokes aside, you're making a lot of unqualified assumptions here. This post was meant to be a respectful one regarding people's opinions, not a shining opportunity for people to make assumptions and imply things.
I think it really depends on how you want to play magic. I enjoy the actual collecting portion of the game as well. Therefore, I personally like to purchase all of the cards and make a deck. In addition, if you want to play in any sanctioned events you have to have the real deal (although cards can be borrowed if you don't want to buy them).
I have a small play group and we each have our own decks. However, we have also proxied all of the major modern decks in tier 1, 2, and 3. So we each take turns playing our decks against whatever decks we need to practice against. This has been great for practice so I have no problem with proxied decks. I also think if a person doesn't have the funds to play, but still wants to enjoy the game, I have no problem with them using proxies to play.
I guess it all depends on your own personal preference and what level of play you are attempting to play.
ElAzar/CurdBros - Thank you. This was the kind of mature input I was looking for.
ElAzar - I agree. My friends all have budget decks, as do I, but they always choose to play their proxies over their budget decks because it is more fun to them. I always try to tell them "a lot of the fun cards in your proxy deck are super cheap, there's no reason not to buy them and put them in your budget deck" but they never care to do so. I have no problem with proxys if a buddy needs to test out their deck, but there is a fine line to me.
CurdBros - I also agree. Testing decks, or being ona budget, is a great reason to proxy. This post was more so directed at the topic of people who actually have the money, but choose not to get the deck, but it's still important to note that some people genuinely can't afford even a budget deck.
Ultimately, I feel like if it's fun to everyone, then enjoy it, but you should at least make an attempt to have a "real" deck. 30 dollars for a pre-made commander, then an additional 20 bucks for cards to buy and add in, means 50 dollars out of your pocket, assuming you don't trade in cards to get them. This is not something that is difficult to obtain over the course of months for *most* people.
Proxies are not bad in and of themselves. I am personally very forgiving for the most part. This comes from:
Not everyone has money for super-expensive cards.
Some people wish to 'test drive' cards in order to see how they affect the deck. EX: I had a friend who was convinced that he didn't need shocks, checks, fetches or the like for his mana base. We allowed him to proxy those cards for his deck. He quickly found how much more efficient his deck was and decided to invest in them.
However, I do have limits:
1. I am much more forgiving if the person proxies lands. Lands are the most expensive part of any deck as they are usually higher in demand and so many of them are needed to make a deck run well.
2. If a person starts to proxy 2/3, 1/2, an entire deck or the like, it begins to get to me. I understand money concerns. However, many people acquire cards not only through money but trade-ins, negotiations and others such deals. Having that many proxies kind of spits in their faces a bit. Also, if proxies become too prevalent in a group, this can shut down trade opportunities and turn away people who might want to join your group.
My playgroup used to be much more accepting of proxies of a whole. However, we ran into a problem. We had a guy we knew didn't have his own EDH deck and wanted to make one. He wanted to make Scion of the Ur-Dragon. He knew the deck would cost an arm and leg just for mana alone. So we allowed him to proxy it due to his financial situation at the time and that none us had any cards to spare for such a deck. The problem came that once we played him, we noticed that he wasn't just test driving the deck to see how it would work and if he'd like it, he was actively trying to win! IF he'd lose, he'd just go online and proxy some new cards to counter us or lock us out. We'd called him on that and decided that proxies would be banned from our group unless discussed before hand.
What I learned from that experience when dealing with proxies:
How much of the deck is made of proxies?
Are the proxies of expensive or high demand cards?
Are the proxies really powerful cards?
Do the people making proxies actually endeavor to get the actual cards?
In summation: Proxies are not bad, in and of themselves. They can serve a real purpose and help people out in a very practical way. However, too much of them will ruin certain things around the game. By making proxy decks and never moving on to actually get the cards, those decks don't really mean anything. There was no work put to getting them. If I lost to such a deck, I'd be quite mad. My own deck represents not only my financial stake in MtG, but a lot of time and effort I put into it. Strategies that I've tried, successes and failures. Refining my creations and the hours of playing and planing behind all of it. Not mention cards that I acquired from friends that help me out and allow me to play and enjoy this games. My decks aren't just pieces of cardboard: they represent me, my experiences, my friendships and so much more. If I were just to proxy all the time and never move to get those cards...it just wouldn't be the same.
Magic has never been a free game, and it shouldn't ever be. Magic is a pay to play game to one degree or another. This is not rummy or go-fish. If you want to play magic you should make a good faith effort to buy the cards you are playing after you have tested them and decided that they are good enough to play.
I am cool with it taking a bit of time to get them, and in the mean time playing proxies in their place. I am cool with only owning one play-set (or single card in the case of Commander) of a card that is in multiple decks you build, and using proxies when you don't want to switch those cards between decks.
100% proxies with no intention of ever buying the cards goes against my ethical belief that people should be able to charge for the IP that they produce. I'm not talking about laws or DCI rules, I am talking about my personal beliefs, and I am not going to sacrifice them to play a game. There are plenty of things that I can't do because I can't afford them, and on some level that sucks, but I accept it without grumbling.
I'm all for it. I've probably spent thousands on MTG and assuming it all became worthless cardboard tomorrow... guess what, I'd still play MTG. I'm in it for the game, and while I'm happy Wizards is there making money and designing cards, things essential to optimized decks such as the dual lands, that won't ever get reprinted, put a lot of pressure on newer, poorer players.
I'm all for it. I've probably spent thousands on MTG and assuming it all became worthless cardboard tomorrow... guess what, I'd still play MTG. I'm in it for the game, and while I'm happy Wizards is there making money and designing cards, things essential to optimized decks such as the dual lands, that won't ever get reprinted, put a lot of pressure on newer, poorer players.
This is true. However, the problem with proxies is that many times, they get out of hand. Also, how many people really want to go that level of competitive? I mean, if you're aiming that high, I'd expect you would have to shell out some serious money at some point. In addition, it is possible to save up for such things, if you're truly committed. I know people who really got to work to get some money but have built their decks and collections over YEARS, not all at once.
I think a lot of it comes downs to how far are you truly willing to go.
What a group not mine does with proxies is no business of mine. I will share my store playgroup's attitude, however:
We discourage proxies based on power/rarity. The original starters of EDH night at the store (myself included) are mostly of ample financial regarding Magic. We can pretty much pick up whatever we want when needed. As such, we've chosen to not run certain cards that generally require other players to run the same cards to play on an even playing field. None of us are running Gaea's Cradle, Mana Crypt, Mana Drain, Force of Will, Candelabrea of Twanos, etc. We all could, but we don't want force a situation where the average player (and the average player generally CANNOT afford a Mana Crypt) has to run proxies to feel they can hang.
That said, even mid-range cards can get expensive. While I think the average player could afford a Serra's Sanctum or a Maze of Ith if needed, even then not everyone can. So we're generally cool with people proxying that level card. On top of that, Maze of Ith and Serra's Sanctum aren't (usually) the game-changers that Gaea's Cradle or Pendrall Vale can be. You can not have a Maze of Ith in your deck and not feel you're unable to play with the guys who do have one.
Basically, the rule of thumb is if the card is of a power level that running a proxy of it requires everyone else to get one or run a proxy to keep up, we discourage it. If it is one that is easy to get or that not having isn't that huge of deal, we usually don't care.
I disagree with proxies you do not own simply because some cards cannot be found anymore or at least not at a cost.
I invested money and time into my decks and I expect my opponents to play the same way.
The only time that I will agree on proxies is to playtest a deck before wanting to buy it.
Otherwise, buy what you can and play with it.
The best analogy I came up with against proxies is simply this: you go bowling with your friends, and 1 guy doesn't want to pay for the shoes, the ball or the game but still wants to play. As much as it is fun to play imaginary bowling with him, it gets boring and annoying very soon since he gets all the trickshots.
What a group not mine does with proxies is no business of mine. I will share my store playgroup's attitude, however:
That is nice, but what if I want to play with these cards on a more competitive level and want to bring the most broken pile of cards to the table (because everybody has a different explanation of fun, right?) but now I can't because others can't/won't afford them. The next problem is, where do you stop allowing/disallowing cards?
I think you still have pretty good answers to cards like Cradle,Tabernacle, even cheap answers that are bulk.
What a group not mine does with proxies is no business of mine. I will share my store playgroup's attitude, however:
That is nice, but what if I want to play with these cards on a more competitive level and want to bring the most broken pile of cards to the table (because everybody has a different explanation of fun, right?) but now I can't because others can't/won't afford them. The next problem is, where do you stop allowing/disallowing cards?
I think you still have pretty good answers to cards like Cradle,Tabernacle, even cheap answers that are bulk.
I guess I'm unsure how you're unable to glean answers to all of the above from my initial response since the info is all there. If you want to play on an absolute cutting edge competitive level you're 100% welcome to do that, and I'm sure you'll have a great time. You're just not going to do it with the 12-15 people in my playgroup who have no interest in doing that for a variety of reasons. Have fun with it, though.
There's a guy I play EDH against who regularly carries like six decks, but he's only got one copy of some of the cards that each deck shares. Rather than deconstruct and reconstruct constantly, he uses proxies in some of the decks and keeps the original cards in another. It's all cool.
As far as my FLGS is concerned, as long as he has correct numbers of copies of the card he's using that he could build the decklist, he doesn't need to have them all in the same deck. It's just easier.
Thank you to everyone! Even though this was meant to be a forum for opinions, I believe you guys have also solved my problem.
Telling them that they are allowed to proxy cards they already own across multiple decks might just get them to buy a few cards, and from there, hopefully more.
maybe set a dollar limit on the amount of proxies or a number, or restrict it to lands. a proxy or two here or there is ok, but a whole deck is pretty lame if your not just playtesting before purchase.
It gets really funny if someone prints out a deck in color and the "proxy" is probably more expensive by printer ink compared to the common it should be.
Rares and the like ok, if a card has any reasonable value, a well made proxy doesnt hurt.
The pieces of paper that barely can be identified (or not at all) are pretty miserable and its a pain to play against that (and with it).
Really good proxies however, pretty much like a real card, theres simply nothing bad about it (ofcourse outside of any sanctioned tournament).
I have no problem with it at all because playing MtG without proxies has become egregiously expensive. If WotC doesn't want to properly support their formats thats fine but then they deserve the increasing lack of loyalty from their customers. I only have issues with proxies that are not well made, e.g. sharpied basic lands or b&w prints. The art on many cards is beautiful and I don't want to lose that aspect of the game because of proxies.
but that is not a lack of loyality, its a lack of moral integrity. They want to play, but don´t want to pay, so they copy a companys ip.
Are you trolling? I really have to ask you becasue this statement is as morally confused as it is factually wrong.
First of all, it's totally legal in most jurisdictions to make copies of pictures, put them on cards and play with them. MtG is no exception. I can play with my full proxy Vintage Workshop deck against my friends as much as I and they enjoy. Hell, you can put much more expensive stuff than a black lotus on a card. If you want, you can play with Mona Lisa proxies, regardless of how immeasurably valuable the original painting is.
Of course the whole story changes when people start SELLING these proxies but that is absolutely not the topic of this conversation and you know that.
Secondly, the term "ip" ("intellectual property") is extremely vague and "copying someones ip" is even more vague. What is that even supposed to mean? What law are you referring to?
"Intellectual Property" refers to A LOT of very different laws with very different purposes. What are you even talking about here, exactly?
Good are testing perspective, playing with friends and so. You save too much space with no need of
Too much proxy and only proxies are not healhtfy even.
I think one day, WOTC maybe allows their own printed proxy card with some limitation to tournaments (4-6 proxy per deck). WOTC proxy, - just none picture or spiruet with only name a text. Or they could print their own templates for proxy lands, artefacts, ... .
Why?
To avoid of none or low demands of specific cards, lower entry prices of decks. And preveting people to jump from Magic to another lower cost game(it could be even chess or another non TCG).
Some people love taking advantage of other's financial situation. I remember when I first started playing at community college, with a deck builders kit. There was this one guy who brought legacy ANT, and would go off first or second turn every game, because he knew we couldn't afford Force or Wills. He got really offended when we asked to use proxies, and didn't understand why we didn't want to play with him.
The point is, if your playgroup has that much of a difference in cardpool or financial power, the people with more powerful/expensive cards really should either let other people proxy, or tone the powerlevel down. It hardly seems fair to say "I spent more than you, so I have strictly better cards", and then get mad about people wanting to proxy. Commander is particularly bad because its vintage singleton advertised as a super casual format.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy
Death and Taxes Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
Are you trolling? I really have to ask you becasue this statement is as morally confused as it is factually wrong.
First of all, it's totally legal in most jurisdictions to make copies of pictures, put them on cards and play with them. MtG is no exception.
There was nothing said about legality, it was morals the poster mentioned which may have nothing to do with a legal system. There are plenty of things that are perfectly legal that people see as immoral.
Secondly, the term "ip" ("intellectual property") is extremely vague and "copying someones ip" is even more vague. What is that even supposed to mean? What law are you referring to?
Again, no mention of laws in the post. IP is pretty clear in the case of MTG cards- WotC pays a lot of artists, and card creators quite a lot of money to make new cards. Do you not think that if you created something that you should be able to charge for others to use it?
I personally like that not everyone can play every card. If that was the case then very few of the cards that wizards has made would ever see play. Why bother playing a shockland if you can play original duals? Restrictions breed creativity, IMO. I have no power, no original duals, and no FOW (amongst many others). What I do have are a lot of cards, even if they are mostly $.05 commons, and a drive to solve problems in a creative way. If I have access to everything by way of proxying with no intention to buy then there is no reason for deck creativity. There is nothing to overcome.
Me and my friends are big on commander. We do play a bit of modern, but on our weekly meets we always play a couple matches of commander. If it isn't cube night, it may as well be commander night.
I hold my deck close to me. I took multiple deck lists, proxied them up, modified and refined my commander deck before purchasing the cards (save for a few incredibly expensive 30-50 dollar cards I plan to hold off on.) It's good enough to be competitive easily, but stands it's own without it's primary win-con, thus making it fun to play against weaker decks.
My other friend began making a proxy of a deck he wanted to build, and it was not bad. He is weary on some cards, but ultimately has some cards that he knows are a must keep. In time, other friends began making proxies too.
It was fun because I could play my deck competitively and have a challenging, fun game. The problem is, it's been over a few months now, and no one has attempted to purchase any of the cards, but they only play EDH with their proxy deck.
Is this a money problem? Yes and no. They have the free money, but spend it elsewhere. They have said that they "will buy the cards eventually" but not even the cheapest of cards was purchased.
I suppose it bothers me the most because I took the time to craft my deck and actually purchase it, as well as get a lot of the cards signed. I grew onto my deck from the league matches to the casual matches. When we go to the store, we usually can get people to agree to play against their proxies, but I can never play in a league with them. It turned magic into a trading card game into a pre-packaged board game.
I suppose the ultimate question is where everyone else stands. Do you believe that people who only play proxies are sucking some fun out of magic, or that it's perfectly acceptable?
Ultimately, while I don't like it, I don't push their buttons about it. If they enjoy the game in the manor of proxy decks, then who am I to stop that? However, I feel like there is a fine line eventually.
I have all of my decks, except the Standard one, proxied I don't like to buy cards, so I wait until someone want to trade the cards I need but that way I won't ever get to get a card like a original dual.
So the most important thing is the game, not the fact that you use proxies or not.
Play the game and have fun!
Modern: UB Zombie hunt UB - WR Boros tokens WR - BGW Treefolk tribal BGW
Commander: UR Mizzix, a Storm of spells UR (Decklist)
The fun of magic does not come from buying the cards. As I said in the original post, I don't instigate the buying of the cards because we all still have fun.
The reason it annoys me is because they aren't able to play at my LGS league with me, because they don't allow proxy (the league hosts prizes, making it more competitive, less casual).
Bradipo: We do still have a lot of fun. I accept that they proxy. My only annoyance of it all is that, as I said, I can't play with them at my LGS league, which is weekly and goes on for a long while. I find the league to be a lot of fun because you encounter many other types of decks, and it's a shame I can't go with them (except one friend who actually bought his deck almost entirely.)
EbonPraetor: Not even *I* voted for "No, and it ruins the fun of the game" at the top. Like I said, it doesn't! Me and my friends still have a great time with proxies. The annoyance of it all is that they continue to claim that they are going to buy it so we can all play league (except for one person who actually bought the deck) but never do so, thus I can never go with them.
midnight_baker: I'd feel stupid if I told someone who was able to buy 90% of his commander via selling and trading cards that they are a sucker who wastes money on stupid *****. Jokes aside, you're making a lot of unqualified assumptions here. This post was meant to be a respectful one regarding people's opinions, not a shining opportunity for people to make assumptions and imply things.
I have a small play group and we each have our own decks. However, we have also proxied all of the major modern decks in tier 1, 2, and 3. So we each take turns playing our decks against whatever decks we need to practice against. This has been great for practice so I have no problem with proxied decks. I also think if a person doesn't have the funds to play, but still wants to enjoy the game, I have no problem with them using proxies to play.
I guess it all depends on your own personal preference and what level of play you are attempting to play.
ElAzar - I agree. My friends all have budget decks, as do I, but they always choose to play their proxies over their budget decks because it is more fun to them. I always try to tell them "a lot of the fun cards in your proxy deck are super cheap, there's no reason not to buy them and put them in your budget deck" but they never care to do so. I have no problem with proxys if a buddy needs to test out their deck, but there is a fine line to me.
CurdBros - I also agree. Testing decks, or being ona budget, is a great reason to proxy. This post was more so directed at the topic of people who actually have the money, but choose not to get the deck, but it's still important to note that some people genuinely can't afford even a budget deck.
Ultimately, I feel like if it's fun to everyone, then enjoy it, but you should at least make an attempt to have a "real" deck. 30 dollars for a pre-made commander, then an additional 20 bucks for cards to buy and add in, means 50 dollars out of your pocket, assuming you don't trade in cards to get them. This is not something that is difficult to obtain over the course of months for *most* people.
However, I do have limits:
1. I am much more forgiving if the person proxies lands. Lands are the most expensive part of any deck as they are usually higher in demand and so many of them are needed to make a deck run well.
2. If a person starts to proxy 2/3, 1/2, an entire deck or the like, it begins to get to me. I understand money concerns. However, many people acquire cards not only through money but trade-ins, negotiations and others such deals. Having that many proxies kind of spits in their faces a bit. Also, if proxies become too prevalent in a group, this can shut down trade opportunities and turn away people who might want to join your group.
My playgroup used to be much more accepting of proxies of a whole. However, we ran into a problem. We had a guy we knew didn't have his own EDH deck and wanted to make one. He wanted to make Scion of the Ur-Dragon. He knew the deck would cost an arm and leg just for mana alone. So we allowed him to proxy it due to his financial situation at the time and that none us had any cards to spare for such a deck. The problem came that once we played him, we noticed that he wasn't just test driving the deck to see how it would work and if he'd like it, he was actively trying to win! IF he'd lose, he'd just go online and proxy some new cards to counter us or lock us out. We'd called him on that and decided that proxies would be banned from our group unless discussed before hand.
What I learned from that experience when dealing with proxies:
How much of the deck is made of proxies?
Are the proxies of expensive or high demand cards?
Are the proxies really powerful cards?
Do the people making proxies actually endeavor to get the actual cards?
In summation: Proxies are not bad, in and of themselves. They can serve a real purpose and help people out in a very practical way. However, too much of them will ruin certain things around the game. By making proxy decks and never moving on to actually get the cards, those decks don't really mean anything. There was no work put to getting them. If I lost to such a deck, I'd be quite mad. My own deck represents not only my financial stake in MtG, but a lot of time and effort I put into it. Strategies that I've tried, successes and failures. Refining my creations and the hours of playing and planing behind all of it. Not mention cards that I acquired from friends that help me out and allow me to play and enjoy this games. My decks aren't just pieces of cardboard: they represent me, my experiences, my friendships and so much more. If I were just to proxy all the time and never move to get those cards...it just wouldn't be the same.
I am cool with it taking a bit of time to get them, and in the mean time playing proxies in their place. I am cool with only owning one play-set (or single card in the case of Commander) of a card that is in multiple decks you build, and using proxies when you don't want to switch those cards between decks.
100% proxies with no intention of ever buying the cards goes against my ethical belief that people should be able to charge for the IP that they produce. I'm not talking about laws or DCI rules, I am talking about my personal beliefs, and I am not going to sacrifice them to play a game. There are plenty of things that I can't do because I can't afford them, and on some level that sucks, but I accept it without grumbling.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I'm all for it. I've probably spent thousands on MTG and assuming it all became worthless cardboard tomorrow... guess what, I'd still play MTG. I'm in it for the game, and while I'm happy Wizards is there making money and designing cards, things essential to optimized decks such as the dual lands, that won't ever get reprinted, put a lot of pressure on newer, poorer players.
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
This is true. However, the problem with proxies is that many times, they get out of hand. Also, how many people really want to go that level of competitive? I mean, if you're aiming that high, I'd expect you would have to shell out some serious money at some point. In addition, it is possible to save up for such things, if you're truly committed. I know people who really got to work to get some money but have built their decks and collections over YEARS, not all at once.
I think a lot of it comes downs to how far are you truly willing to go.
We discourage proxies based on power/rarity. The original starters of EDH night at the store (myself included) are mostly of ample financial regarding Magic. We can pretty much pick up whatever we want when needed. As such, we've chosen to not run certain cards that generally require other players to run the same cards to play on an even playing field. None of us are running Gaea's Cradle, Mana Crypt, Mana Drain, Force of Will, Candelabrea of Twanos, etc. We all could, but we don't want force a situation where the average player (and the average player generally CANNOT afford a Mana Crypt) has to run proxies to feel they can hang.
That said, even mid-range cards can get expensive. While I think the average player could afford a Serra's Sanctum or a Maze of Ith if needed, even then not everyone can. So we're generally cool with people proxying that level card. On top of that, Maze of Ith and Serra's Sanctum aren't (usually) the game-changers that Gaea's Cradle or Pendrall Vale can be. You can not have a Maze of Ith in your deck and not feel you're unable to play with the guys who do have one.
Basically, the rule of thumb is if the card is of a power level that running a proxy of it requires everyone else to get one or run a proxy to keep up, we discourage it. If it is one that is easy to get or that not having isn't that huge of deal, we usually don't care.
GReki, the History of Kamigawa Legendfall
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest Drawmaster of Trest | GBGlissa the Traitor A Touch of Death | WBTeysa, Orzhov Scion Spinning in Graves
UWIsperia, Supreme Judge A Riddles of Sphinxes | RG Mena and Denn, Wildborn Beware Falling Rocks | GWSigarda, Host of Hurons The Enchantress
WRGRith the Awakener Superfriendly Tokens
I invested money and time into my decks and I expect my opponents to play the same way.
The only time that I will agree on proxies is to playtest a deck before wanting to buy it.
Otherwise, buy what you can and play with it.
The best analogy I came up with against proxies is simply this: you go bowling with your friends, and 1 guy doesn't want to pay for the shoes, the ball or the game but still wants to play. As much as it is fun to play imaginary bowling with him, it gets boring and annoying very soon since he gets all the trickshots.
RETIRED - GAME SUCKS
Modern:
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Legacy:
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That is nice, but what if I want to play with these cards on a more competitive level and want to bring the most broken pile of cards to the table (because everybody has a different explanation of fun, right?) but now I can't because others can't/won't afford them. The next problem is, where do you stop allowing/disallowing cards?
I think you still have pretty good answers to cards like Cradle,Tabernacle, even cheap answers that are bulk.
I guess I'm unsure how you're unable to glean answers to all of the above from my initial response since the info is all there. If you want to play on an absolute cutting edge competitive level you're 100% welcome to do that, and I'm sure you'll have a great time. You're just not going to do it with the 12-15 people in my playgroup who have no interest in doing that for a variety of reasons. Have fun with it, though.
GReki, the History of Kamigawa Legendfall
UGEdric, Spymaster of Trest Drawmaster of Trest | GBGlissa the Traitor A Touch of Death | WBTeysa, Orzhov Scion Spinning in Graves
UWIsperia, Supreme Judge A Riddles of Sphinxes | RG Mena and Denn, Wildborn Beware Falling Rocks | GWSigarda, Host of Hurons The Enchantress
WRGRith the Awakener Superfriendly Tokens
As far as my FLGS is concerned, as long as he has correct numbers of copies of the card he's using that he could build the decklist, he doesn't need to have them all in the same deck. It's just easier.
Art is life itself.
Telling them that they are allowed to proxy cards they already own across multiple decks might just get them to buy a few cards, and from there, hopefully more.
Rares and the like ok, if a card has any reasonable value, a well made proxy doesnt hurt.
The pieces of paper that barely can be identified (or not at all) are pretty miserable and its a pain to play against that (and with it).
Really good proxies however, pretty much like a real card, theres simply nothing bad about it (ofcourse outside of any sanctioned tournament).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
That doesn't make sense to me. They want to play MtG so that's what they do...
Are you trolling? I really have to ask you becasue this statement is as morally confused as it is factually wrong.
First of all, it's totally legal in most jurisdictions to make copies of pictures, put them on cards and play with them. MtG is no exception. I can play with my full proxy Vintage Workshop deck against my friends as much as I and they enjoy. Hell, you can put much more expensive stuff than a black lotus on a card. If you want, you can play with Mona Lisa proxies, regardless of how immeasurably valuable the original painting is.
Of course the whole story changes when people start SELLING these proxies but that is absolutely not the topic of this conversation and you know that.
Secondly, the term "ip" ("intellectual property") is extremely vague and "copying someones ip" is even more vague. What is that even supposed to mean? What law are you referring to?
"Intellectual Property" refers to A LOT of very different laws with very different purposes. What are you even talking about here, exactly?
Good are testing perspective, playing with friends and so. You save too much space with no need of
Too much proxy and only proxies are not healhtfy even.
I think one day, WOTC maybe allows their own printed proxy card with some limitation to tournaments (4-6 proxy per deck). WOTC proxy, - just none picture or spiruet with only name a text. Or they could print their own templates for proxy lands, artefacts, ... .
Why?
To avoid of none or low demands of specific cards, lower entry prices of decks. And preveting people to jump from Magic to another lower cost game(it could be even chess or another non TCG).
The point is, if your playgroup has that much of a difference in cardpool or financial power, the people with more powerful/expensive cards really should either let other people proxy, or tone the powerlevel down. It hardly seems fair to say "I spent more than you, so I have strictly better cards", and then get mad about people wanting to proxy. Commander is particularly bad because its vintage singleton advertised as a super casual format.
Death and Taxes
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Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
There was nothing said about legality, it was morals the poster mentioned which may have nothing to do with a legal system. There are plenty of things that are perfectly legal that people see as immoral.
Again, no mention of laws in the post. IP is pretty clear in the case of MTG cards- WotC pays a lot of artists, and card creators quite a lot of money to make new cards. Do you not think that if you created something that you should be able to charge for others to use it?
I personally like that not everyone can play every card. If that was the case then very few of the cards that wizards has made would ever see play. Why bother playing a shockland if you can play original duals? Restrictions breed creativity, IMO. I have no power, no original duals, and no FOW (amongst many others). What I do have are a lot of cards, even if they are mostly $.05 commons, and a drive to solve problems in a creative way. If I have access to everything by way of proxying with no intention to buy then there is no reason for deck creativity. There is nothing to overcome.
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