All threads about this topic I found are all old and locked down by mods, so I thought I would bring that discussion back up again so we can have as many people opinion as possible. I found this awesome article from Legit MTG that has been around for a year now and it goes as deep as I have seen on the subject, so I recommend everyone to check it out and comment about the guy's point of view, I for one think he is pretty right on on his points.
I still don't have an opinion about the matter, but I do think it would not hurt the game in anyway, it could affect the secondary market a little bit but the trade would be more limited quantity cards available to more people, it would end up discussions and else on LGS games, it could help some formats to get more traction and maybe test the ground for a future reprint policy revoke that would actually solve the problem on cards prices and if done right have little effect on the secondary market.
If you think they should not be made legal tell here why, and lets have a healthy and pro game/community talk here.
Some arguments I have seen that I disagree with:
They are proxies so every proxy should be legalized: of course GB cards are not proxies they are actual WOC Ofcial products, printed and sold by them under their total control of print run, quality and copyright laws, a proxy is something anyone can do at home and it's quantity and quality can't be controlled by WOC/hasbro creator and owner of the game, also proxies infringe copyrights laws so they are ilegal not only on tournaments, unless you are making a totally different proxy like a blank paper with ink on it saying what it represents.
They are not real magic cards: pretty much the same as above, it is printed by WOC and has the exactly same specs of every other magic card, except the GB and the marks (like different backs or square edges) on them that makes them under current rules tournament ilegal, thus they are as real as any other magic cards printed by WOC can be.
It would benefit only people who owns those cards and they would be able to make money: Well they actually would benefit anyone who wants to get their hands on those cards at a cheaper price. Also anyone can buy it right now for a long time so it is not unfair with who has it already, who does not own any of those cards opted not to buy them. I don't think too many people would make money in the first place because who owns them either play with them or collect and either of those people would only sell the cards as they see fit just as with any other card, also what is the problem with them making money, can't someone who paid 10 bucks on a BL back in the days sell it now for 15k? That is market and people should not be angry or complain about that.
It would go against the restrict list reprint policy: Well these cards are not being reprinted, they were already printed and before the policy came to exist, so I don't think it works that way. Also this policy is good for the secondary market only, and this topic is to help the game itself not protect the secondary market, which must exist and be looked by WOC but secondarily as the name implies.
They would require sleeves: yes they would and that is not an issue since you can choose to use sleeves in any kind of deck, or if you build an entire deck out of those cards thus making them unmarked since all of them have the same back and are indistinguishable. And if square corners are making marks on sleeves you could always replace the sleeves or even cut the corner and make it round.
The prices would not drop, and the prices of GB cards would go up: No and Yes, I do not think the prices would drop to a point where anyone could buy it, in the end they are and will always be restricted low availability bad-ass old cards, but they would see some price drop and eventually go up again. Also the price for GB cards of course would go up but not by much initially since they are already pretty expensive even not being tournament legal, but they would gradually go up in price until maybe stabilize quite a bit under the original printed cards mostly due to it being a different set and characteristics.
for what it's worth, everyone uses sleeves at the places where it matters (FNM/tournaments etc) so as long as you're using currently tournament legal sleeves (i.e. properly opaque) then surely there's no problem whatsoever with using these cards. it gives the player 0% advantage/disadvantage because in terms of size and print quality they are just magic cards, no difference.
the pointy corners collector's edition, hmm that's a bit different. but the Worlds cards - should already be legal, it's kinda silly that they aren't. if the problem is people using the wrong sleeves then they'd be cheating no matter what cards they were using, so it doesn't make any difference.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Proxies:
In chess, every player starts with the same pieces. Not so in Magic. While it is nice to go online and use programs that give you the opportunity to use every single card created, I respect that there is a dedicated team creating cards, paying artists to make card art, shipping and marketing these things which I play with on a daily basis. They should receive some compensation for their time, effort, and literal money spent. While we could waste time arguing about the amount(where many people justify proxying), I'm sure that we all understand: this isn't THEIR hobby, this is their job/career. If they made no money doing this thing they primarily do, they would stop doing it. They deserve more than nothing if we desire new content.
So did they receive compensation for these cards? Yes, yes they did.
They aren't real Magic cards:
This is where it gets interesting and it ties in with the first argument. This is also "an opening of the floodgates". There are other mainstream card games that have in the past sold these types of decks, Pokémon being one of them. I've seen many kids in my neighborhood using these cards and they are good. Giving that much of a good thing to everyone raises the power level of the game. If you look at the initial sets of magic, most of the creatures sucked (I swear to God if someone brings up how often they've reprinted Serra Angel- I SAID MOST. PERIOD.). Savannah Lions was a rare as a 2/1 vanilla. War Mammoth would never be run due to Garruk's Companion. In most cases, creatures have seen a rise in power level and spells have been nerfed (Counterspell, Dark Ritual, Lightning Bolt, Timewalk, Giant Growth[is not legal in frontier, just checked.] etc.) Not so much Timewalk, but all the other cards I listed were staples. That meant you ran them in your deck if you could. If you didn't run Ritual in your monoblack deck premodern, your deck sucked (mostly because the brunt of black creatures sucked because RD knew that you could use dark Ritual to do things like a turn one Royal Assassin or turn two Juzam Djinn (which was why that card is worth so much). None of these are standard or frontier legal and they won't be (well, maybe Royal Assassin, seeing how it is a creature) nor will they have a functional reprint (like Elvish Mystic.
The hugest problem with this is: if you allow gold bordered cards under the premise of them being officially printed cards, the same could be argued for silver bordered cards...like Staying Power...
Only benefits the people that invested at that time: no problems there, I agree with you. Just think about all the times they unbanned a card...or changed the rules to make certain cards useless (Master of Arms) or accidently broken (Mana Drain).
Reprint policy: 100% agreed.
Sleeves: Cutting a card is dangerous territory, not only for likely ruining the card value (or accidently ruining the card) but for what constitutes and acceptable card modification for tournaments. Allowing card cutting would be bad. The way to get around square corners is the same way WotC did with double sided cards: placeholders.
Price modulation: I'd treat this just like a new more exclusive 'Master's set was released. Supply increases so overall price of the old will decrease dependent on the amount of market saturation.
TL;DR: I couldn't care less in any game I was playing in, so as long as the cards were properly sleeved to eliminate the concern of playing with marked cards. The biggest looming cloud would of course be the question of the legalization of the Un-sets that might follow.
The hugest problem with this is: if you allow gold bordered cards under the premise of them being officially printed cards, the same could be argued for silver bordered cards...like Staying Power...
Sleeves: Cutting a card is dangerous territory, not only for likely ruining the card value (or accidently ruining the card) but for what constitutes and acceptable card modification for tournaments. Allowing card cutting would be bad. The way to get around square corners is the same way WotC did with double sided cards: placeholders.
TL;DR: I couldn't care less in any game I was playing in, so as long as the cards were properly sleeved to eliminate the concern of playing with marked cards. The biggest looming cloud would of course be the question of the legalization of the Un-sets that might follow.
Thanks for you opinion man.
Yeah I haven't talked about the Un sets due the the fact although real magic cards (that is unquestionable) they were intended as a joke and I don't think they see fit in tournament plays, also they were never printed in any other set so they would not be legal in formats that restricts which sets can be used to build decks.
Am I wrong about that or do you think the SB cards could see oficial play? I mean GB cards are only reprints of oficial play sets, not the SB though.
About cutting the edges yes that is not the best solution indeed, placeholders or replacing marked sleeves (since when new you can't tell if there is a square or rounded corner card inside) would be a much better solution.
Problem is sleeves don't change the shape and I believe one of those two has pointy corners and that theoretically could affect how a player shuffles their deck.
The ones that are the right size? Sure.
And lol and the guy who thinks putting gold bordered real cards in somehow opens the door for silver bordered fake cards. All the gold cards were copies of real ones. No silver card is. (until it was, I'm looking at you, Look at Me I'm the Dci and I didn't forget about you Rocket Powered Turbo Slug.)
Problem is sleeves don't change the shape and I believe one of those two has pointy corners and that theoretically could affect how a player shuffles their deck.
The ones that are the right size? Sure.
And lol and the guy who thinks putting gold bordered real cards in somehow opens the door for silver bordered fake cards. All the gold cards were copies of real ones. No silver card is. (until it was, I'm looking at you, Look at Me I'm the Dci and I didn't forget about you Rocket Powered Turbo Slug.)
Thanks man for your opinion.
About the way someone shuffles, I dont think that is an issue, the only issue would be if you can tell what is coming from your library (marked cards)
Ýeah unsets lol those cards would not fit a legal play, imho, though they are fun.
They are +- like the cards that come exclusively in Duel decks PN decks and such, that has not been printed in any other set before so are not for oficial play.
Problem is sleeves don't change the shape and I believe one of those two has pointy corners and that theoretically could affect how a player shuffles their deck.
The ones that are the right size? Sure.
And lol and the guy who thinks putting gold bordered real cards in somehow opens the door for silver bordered fake cards. All the gold cards were copies of real ones. No silver card is. (until it was, I'm looking at you, Look at Me I'm the Dci and I didn't forget about you Rocket Powered Turbo Slug.)
Thanks man for your opinion.
About the way someone shuffles, I dont think that is an issue, the only issue would be if you can tell what is coming from your library (marked cards)
Ýeah unsets lol those cards would not fit a legal play, imho, though they are fun.
They are +- like the cards that come exclusively in Duel decks PN decks and such, that has not been printed in any other set before so are not for oficial play.
Cheers
Ssleeves aren't stiff enough to hide the corners. I noticed this once playing type four. And if I notify,then someone could notice intentionally.
The only reason gold bordered cards are cheaper is because they're not legal to play with. Moment they become legal, they'll be just as "cheap" as their black bordered counterparts (with a VERY slight adjustment accounting for the increased availibility)
The only reason gold bordered cards are cheaper is because they're not legal to play with. Moment they become legal, they'll be just as "cheap" as their black bordered counterparts (with a VERY slight adjustment accounting for the increased availibility)
thanks for commenting man.
I think they will be cheaper than the original cards, since usually or maybe always the reprints are cheaper than their counterparts.
As I said they won't be dirty cheap, hell they aren't already, but they would be and make the other ones cheaper and thus allowing more people to buy and play with them officially.
I'm all for legalizing gold bordered cards for Vintage and Legacy for selfish reasons, I collect Collector's Edition cards. I think that it wouldn't affect tournaments in any negative way. As Pollaski stated, if you legalize gold bordered cards, their prices would sky-rocket. The only people who would benefit would be people like me who already own said cards. As far as pricing is concerned, I don't believe that legalizing these cards would allow new players to enter eternal formats cheaply.
As far as availability is concerned, there were only 15,000 combined sets of Collector's/International editions printed. I don't have numbers for the pro tour decks. But for CE/IE cards that's really not that many more cards for the formats. Currently on ebay a Revised Tundra costs between $115 to $130 US, and there are around thirty available(only looking at "Buy it Now" cards). There are only four CE/IE Tundras available, and while there's one for around $99, the rest are over $130. So no savings for the masses there. Gaea's Cradle costs upwards of $180 and there are eighteen online compared to the eight pro tour Gaea's Cradles, which average about $45. There are probably more Revised cards on the market, by a large volume, than CE/IE cards. The only real savings is on P9 cards. Price is by and far a larger barrier to entrance in eternal formats than card availability is.
There's an unsanctioned old school format that allows CE/IE cards(Old School 93/94), once that format gained traction those cards started climbing up in price. I don't feel that by legalizing gold bordered cards you'd be solving many of the issues involved with eternal participation, other than getting people who already own gold bordered cards to join. But I have an inkling that would not be a significant enough number to matter much. The only way to increase participation and garner new players into eternal formats(Vintage and Legacy specifically) is to abolish the Reserved List and print aggressively, not likely to happen. So while I'm all for legalizing GB cards, I truly don't believe it would affect much, sadly.
When it comes to the square edge, just double sleeve.(card in a perfect fit sleeve inside an opaque sleeve) That tends to solve that problem>
Edit: according to magiclibrarities.net there were 20,000 Pro Tour Collector's Sets produced.
I've posted a few times on these forums in favor of such an action as unbanning GB cards. I'm in favor of an unban because this is literally the only option to increase the exchange of hands or increase new ownership of reserve list cards.
I'd suggest people give a thought to what else could be done to increase availability of tournament legal reserved list cards. Unfortunately any other options I'm aware of require a reprint. We all know WOTC will not do reprints so.......this is the only option I see.
Many people I've debated on this subject take the position that this is only reasonable if everyone can afford the cards and that affordability is only possible with reprints (to provide necessary quantities to drop prices). They argue that if there's not enough reprints to make the RL cards affordable to all, then there's no point at all. I think this line if thought is flawed.
I would suggest that we take a moment to accept, finally, that reprints are not an option for WOTC. The best alternative as players that we can get in hindsight is an unbanning. I see this as the only means of increasing how many people own these cards and can use them for legal tournament gameplay.
We have to take the history of these cards into consideration though and accept that not everyone is still going to be able to afford them if unbanned, and that's ok. We can't be so greedy as to argue for nothing instead of something, and trust me -something is absolutely better than nothing in this case.
I've posted a few times on these forums in favor of such an action as unbanning GB cards. I'm in favor of an unban because this is literally the only option to increase the exchange of hands or increase new ownership of reserve list cards.
This would be nothing more than a very short lived increase in supply, at best. As soon as WOTC agreed to make Gold border and CE cards legal, the #mtgfinance sector's investors and speculators would be buying out the market to relist for a ridiculous profit. Some already go for $10+ depending on what they are (Grim Monolith, Rishadan Port) because of EDH and Cube and they're the closest things to legitimized proxies. But one also has to assume that those who have these cards would want to trade or sell them to begin with. Most people who sought out those cards up until this point had their own reasons in doing so. The supply of these cards specifically won't necessarily increase as a result. What little in circulation there is will instantly become inflated beyond reasonable levels. This really isn't the solution that some people believe it could be. Yes, one could argue "Something is better than nothing", but I disagree that essentially making those in collection of CE or Gold Bordered cards instantly in possession of live tournament staples is healthy for Magic or their formats, and don't even go as far as to assume that find their market. If they became an item, they may very well be marked up as expensive as their legitimate copies because of the rarity and low print runs. Then you're screwing over the people who collect them or want them for Cubes or EDH for playgroups that allow them because of a losing gamble that it might make Legacy or Vintage more affordable, when the cards that make those formats so inaccessible are underrepresented or not available in the form of those items, anyway.
This would be nothing more than a very short lived increase in supply, at best...
Actually, this would increase supply permanently. A one-shot increase =/= a temporary increase.
yes permanent and add to that that the print run is pretty much the same from alpha and beta (considering the CE and IE sets) so it has the potential to double the supply of legal cards.
it is all said on the article I linked at the OP. please guys go read that it is really informative.
I still can´t see the advantage of unbanning gb cards, other than giving free money to the people who have them.
I dont think it helps legacy, i don´t think it helps the actual legacy players. It might hurt commander players, who use those cards.
maybe it is just that because you don't want to see it, it is all there in front of us.
also what bad could happen to the community or to the game, nothing that I could think... the worst that could happen is the cards supply are not enough or the prices end up too high and then we failed... but at least we tried and that's is much better than do nothing...
also as I said before it could be the first step to a future RL waive.
I think the big flaw in logic that players have is that they need to allow gold bordered cards at all and that tournament legality even matters in the Legacy format anymore. The sheer rarity of some prints along with the reserve list makes owning the official cards impossible for the majority (like, probably 95%) of all magic players compared to modern, which can at least be bought into. If there ever was a format that may live and die off of third party alternate art cards it's probably legacy. Unfortunately, I have found some of these alternate art prints can be... a bit odd. Namely, I was not aware there was a market for anime character swamps until about two weeks ago... and every other basic land. Also many legendaries... and it seems there is a Merit Lage alternate art token that has a giant dragon on it when it's a spaghetti monster.
Well now I want to peruse ebay and see what madness there is out there for legacy cards.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The reason gold-bordered cards were not legal for use in tournaments and whatnot is because you were literally able to buy preconstructed decks containing 4 Gaea's Cradle, 4 Force of Will, 4 Goblin Piledriver, etc. for close to nothing. These decks were developed so you can play with a copy of the top 4 decks of that year's world championship tournament. Basically, for kitchen table Magic.
That being said, they stopped printing them because fewer and fewer people were willing to pay anything for something that a lot of people didn't allow to play with (tournaments) so it because more of a gimmick than something useful. Even so, I've seen playsets of gold-bordered Force of Wills go for close to $100 on eBay and a single gold-bordered Gaea's Cradle go for around $40 - which is ridiculous, in my opinion. Paying so much for something you can only use for kitchen table Magic - and even then, some playgroups disallow them (which is even more ridiculous, since they are actual Magic cards, say what you will) is beyond words to me. It goes to show how adversely the Reserved List affects the playing aspect of Magic (which is a whole other can of worms).
Since gold-bordered is not legal for tournament play, Wizards should use this apparent "loophole" in the Reserve List verbal promise and reprint cards in gold-border. People wouldn't be able to play them in tournaments so players playing Vintage and Legacy can't use them. So prices on dual lands, Gaea's Cradle, etc. won't drop, which should be okay with collectors. This would be the perfect opportunity so that players who only play casual formats and don't participate in tournaments can still have access to great cards.
Thus, I wouldn't legalize gold-border cards; I would rather have them still be unavailable for official tournaments. That way, more gold-bordered, special-backed cards can be reprinted so that I don't have to spend thousands of dollars for my EDH deck which I only use at the kitchen table.
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The reason gold-bordered cards were not legal for use in tournaments and whatnot is because you were literally able to buy preconstructed decks containing 4 Gaea's Cradle, 4 Force of Will, 4 Goblin Piledriver, etc. for close to nothing. These decks were developed so you can play with a copy of the top 4 decks of that year's world championship tournament. Basically, for kitchen table Magic.
That being said, they stopped printing them because fewer and fewer people were willing to pay anything for something that a lot of people didn't allow to play with (tournaments) so it because more of a gimmick than something useful. Even so, I've seen playsets of gold-bordered Force of Wills go for close to $100 on eBay and a single gold-bordered Gaea's Cradle go for around $40 - which is ridiculous, in my opinion. Paying so much for something you can only use for kitchen table Magic - and even then, some playgroups disallow them (which is even more ridiculous, since they are actual Magic cards, say what you will) is beyond words to me. It goes to show how adversely the Reserved List affects the playing aspect of Magic (which is a whole other can of worms).
Since gold-bordered is not legal for tournament play, Wizards should use this apparent "loophole" in the Reserve List verbal promise and reprint cards in gold-border. People wouldn't be able to play them in tournaments so players playing Vintage and Legacy can't use them. So prices on dual lands, Gaea's Cradle, etc. won't drop, which should be okay with collectors. This would be the perfect opportunity so that players who only play casual formats and don't participate in tournaments can still have access to great cards.
Thus, I wouldn't legalize gold-border cards; I would rather have them still be unavailable for official tournaments. That way, more gold-bordered, special-backed cards can be reprinted so that I don't have to spend thousands of dollars for my EDH deck which I only use at the kitchen table.
thanks for your opinions.
I don't think even a GB reprint is allowed under RL rules...
Also not making it legal would still leave them in a limbo where you would depend on the house/opponent rules to let you use them on your lgs and still illegal on officual tournaments and so would still have zero benefi on that matter.
I know it would hurt non oficial plays like edh or kitchen table due to eventually price spikes on GB cards but those have much less strict play rules in a way you could even use a proxy as your opponent could also. imho.
@crimhead: Cannot find any info about World Championship print runs. The 1996 Inaugural Pro Tour decks print run was 20,000 sets.
Also, Lion's Eye Diamond was never printed in gold border. Back in the day everyone thought it was a junk card. It wasn't until the Legacy format started getting explored that player's finally saw it's value.
Even if the reserve list wasn't in place the rate WoTC can reprint cards and actually stop price climbs has been mediocre to downright inadequate. It's literally gotten to the point that they wont reprint any card of high secondary market value in a set card product like commander because they are afraid of arbitrage, even though it will just translate to more orders. The last two times they did put a card of value into a commander deck they ended up with the same situation they are having now with Atraxa for example, and they didn't reprint much of anything that had above a 10 dollar msrp secondary market wise. The real problem is sometimes more about how they go about printing products like Commander, from the vault, and other side products than the quantity.
But you know, even if they made gold cards legal the tendency with that direction is that it causes more interest in related cards to those gold products, so instead of making things cheaper it ends up doing the opposite. Take a look at what Atraxa and Breya decks did on the market. Ajani Steadfast went from 5 usd to 13, Scourglass went from chump rare at sub 1 usd to a 7 usd card over night. Spike weaver, a card on the reserve list that was largely ignored suddenly spiked, and the list keeps going on. All of this comes back to the problem with Eternal: It's just too big for the parent company to ever manage.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
@crimhead: Cannot find any info about World Championship print runs. The 1996 Inaugural Pro Tour decks print run was 20,000 sets.
Also, Lion's Eye Diamond was never printed in gold border. Back in the day everyone thought it was a junk card. It wasn't until the Legacy format started getting explored that player's finally saw it's value.
LED needs Storm and Dredge around to really allow itself to be useful. Maybe there could have been a Yawgmoth's Will/LED deck before storm, but I doubt it.
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That was pretty interesting. But dropping a warship on me is cheating. Take it back!
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All threads about this topic I found are all old and locked down by mods, so I thought I would bring that discussion back up again so we can have as many people opinion as possible. I found this awesome article from Legit MTG that has been around for a year now and it goes as deep as I have seen on the subject, so I recommend everyone to check it out and comment about the guy's point of view, I for one think he is pretty right on on his points.
I still don't have an opinion about the matter, but I do think it would not hurt the game in anyway, it could affect the secondary market a little bit but the trade would be more limited quantity cards available to more people, it would end up discussions and else on LGS games, it could help some formats to get more traction and maybe test the ground for a future reprint policy revoke that would actually solve the problem on cards prices and if done right have little effect on the secondary market.
If you think they should not be made legal tell here why, and lets have a healthy and pro game/community talk here.
Some arguments I have seen that I disagree with:
They are proxies so every proxy should be legalized: of course GB cards are not proxies they are actual WOC Ofcial products, printed and sold by them under their total control of print run, quality and copyright laws, a proxy is something anyone can do at home and it's quantity and quality can't be controlled by WOC/hasbro creator and owner of the game, also proxies infringe copyrights laws so they are ilegal not only on tournaments, unless you are making a totally different proxy like a blank paper with ink on it saying what it represents.
They are not real magic cards: pretty much the same as above, it is printed by WOC and has the exactly same specs of every other magic card, except the GB and the marks (like different backs or square edges) on them that makes them under current rules tournament ilegal, thus they are as real as any other magic cards printed by WOC can be.
It would benefit only people who owns those cards and they would be able to make money: Well they actually would benefit anyone who wants to get their hands on those cards at a cheaper price. Also anyone can buy it right now for a long time so it is not unfair with who has it already, who does not own any of those cards opted not to buy them. I don't think too many people would make money in the first place because who owns them either play with them or collect and either of those people would only sell the cards as they see fit just as with any other card, also what is the problem with them making money, can't someone who paid 10 bucks on a BL back in the days sell it now for 15k? That is market and people should not be angry or complain about that.
It would go against the restrict list reprint policy: Well these cards are not being reprinted, they were already printed and before the policy came to exist, so I don't think it works that way. Also this policy is good for the secondary market only, and this topic is to help the game itself not protect the secondary market, which must exist and be looked by WOC but secondarily as the name implies.
They would require sleeves: yes they would and that is not an issue since you can choose to use sleeves in any kind of deck, or if you build an entire deck out of those cards thus making them unmarked since all of them have the same back and are indistinguishable. And if square corners are making marks on sleeves you could always replace the sleeves or even cut the corner and make it round.
The prices would not drop, and the prices of GB cards would go up: No and Yes, I do not think the prices would drop to a point where anyone could buy it, in the end they are and will always be restricted low availability bad-ass old cards, but they would see some price drop and eventually go up again. Also the price for GB cards of course would go up but not by much initially since they are already pretty expensive even not being tournament legal, but they would gradually go up in price until maybe stabilize quite a bit under the original printed cards mostly due to it being a different set and characteristics.
Just my 2 cents.
Cheers
the pointy corners collector's edition, hmm that's a bit different. but the Worlds cards - should already be legal, it's kinda silly that they aren't. if the problem is people using the wrong sleeves then they'd be cheating no matter what cards they were using, so it doesn't make any difference.
In chess, every player starts with the same pieces. Not so in Magic. While it is nice to go online and use programs that give you the opportunity to use every single card created, I respect that there is a dedicated team creating cards, paying artists to make card art, shipping and marketing these things which I play with on a daily basis. They should receive some compensation for their time, effort, and literal money spent. While we could waste time arguing about the amount(where many people justify proxying), I'm sure that we all understand: this isn't THEIR hobby, this is their job/career. If they made no money doing this thing they primarily do, they would stop doing it. They deserve more than nothing if we desire new content.
So did they receive compensation for these cards? Yes, yes they did.
They aren't real Magic cards:
This is where it gets interesting and it ties in with the first argument. This is also "an opening of the floodgates". There are other mainstream card games that have in the past sold these types of decks, Pokémon being one of them. I've seen many kids in my neighborhood using these cards and they are good. Giving that much of a good thing to everyone raises the power level of the game. If you look at the initial sets of magic, most of the creatures sucked (I swear to God if someone brings up how often they've reprinted Serra Angel- I SAID MOST. PERIOD.). Savannah Lions was a rare as a 2/1 vanilla. War Mammoth would never be run due to Garruk's Companion. In most cases, creatures have seen a rise in power level and spells have been nerfed (Counterspell, Dark Ritual, Lightning Bolt, Timewalk, Giant Growth[is not legal in frontier, just checked.] etc.) Not so much Timewalk, but all the other cards I listed were staples. That meant you ran them in your deck if you could. If you didn't run Ritual in your monoblack deck premodern, your deck sucked (mostly because the brunt of black creatures sucked because RD knew that you could use dark Ritual to do things like a turn one Royal Assassin or turn two Juzam Djinn (which was why that card is worth so much). None of these are standard or frontier legal and they won't be (well, maybe Royal Assassin, seeing how it is a creature) nor will they have a functional reprint (like Elvish Mystic.
The hugest problem with this is: if you allow gold bordered cards under the premise of them being officially printed cards, the same could be argued for silver bordered cards...like Staying Power...
Only benefits the people that invested at that time: no problems there, I agree with you. Just think about all the times they unbanned a card...or changed the rules to make certain cards useless (Master of Arms) or accidently broken (Mana Drain).
Reprint policy: 100% agreed.
Sleeves: Cutting a card is dangerous territory, not only for likely ruining the card value (or accidently ruining the card) but for what constitutes and acceptable card modification for tournaments. Allowing card cutting would be bad. The way to get around square corners is the same way WotC did with double sided cards: placeholders.
Price modulation: I'd treat this just like a new more exclusive 'Master's set was released. Supply increases so overall price of the old will decrease dependent on the amount of market saturation.
TL;DR: I couldn't care less in any game I was playing in, so as long as the cards were properly sleeved to eliminate the concern of playing with marked cards. The biggest looming cloud would of course be the question of the legalization of the Un-sets that might follow.
Thanks for you opinion man.
Yeah I haven't talked about the Un sets due the the fact although real magic cards (that is unquestionable) they were intended as a joke and I don't think they see fit in tournament plays, also they were never printed in any other set so they would not be legal in formats that restricts which sets can be used to build decks.
Am I wrong about that or do you think the SB cards could see oficial play? I mean GB cards are only reprints of oficial play sets, not the SB though.
About cutting the edges yes that is not the best solution indeed, placeholders or replacing marked sleeves (since when new you can't tell if there is a square or rounded corner card inside) would be a much better solution.
Cheers
The ones that are the right size? Sure.
And lol and the guy who thinks putting gold bordered real cards in somehow opens the door for silver bordered fake cards. All the gold cards were copies of real ones. No silver card is. (until it was, I'm looking at you, Look at Me I'm the Dci and I didn't forget about you Rocket Powered Turbo Slug.)
Thanks man for your opinion.
About the way someone shuffles, I dont think that is an issue, the only issue would be if you can tell what is coming from your library (marked cards)
Ýeah unsets lol those cards would not fit a legal play, imho, though they are fun.
They are +- like the cards that come exclusively in Duel decks PN decks and such, that has not been printed in any other set before so are not for oficial play.
Cheers
thanks for commenting man.
I think they will be cheaper than the original cards, since usually or maybe always the reprints are cheaper than their counterparts.
As I said they won't be dirty cheap, hell they aren't already, but they would be and make the other ones cheaper and thus allowing more people to buy and play with them officially.
Cheers
As far as availability is concerned, there were only 15,000 combined sets of Collector's/International editions printed. I don't have numbers for the pro tour decks. But for CE/IE cards that's really not that many more cards for the formats. Currently on ebay a Revised Tundra costs between $115 to $130 US, and there are around thirty available(only looking at "Buy it Now" cards). There are only four CE/IE Tundras available, and while there's one for around $99, the rest are over $130. So no savings for the masses there. Gaea's Cradle costs upwards of $180 and there are eighteen online compared to the eight pro tour Gaea's Cradles, which average about $45. There are probably more Revised cards on the market, by a large volume, than CE/IE cards. The only real savings is on P9 cards. Price is by and far a larger barrier to entrance in eternal formats than card availability is.
There's an unsanctioned old school format that allows CE/IE cards(Old School 93/94), once that format gained traction those cards started climbing up in price. I don't feel that by legalizing gold bordered cards you'd be solving many of the issues involved with eternal participation, other than getting people who already own gold bordered cards to join. But I have an inkling that would not be a significant enough number to matter much. The only way to increase participation and garner new players into eternal formats(Vintage and Legacy specifically) is to abolish the Reserved List and print aggressively, not likely to happen. So while I'm all for legalizing GB cards, I truly don't believe it would affect much, sadly.
When it comes to the square edge, just double sleeve.(card in a perfect fit sleeve inside an opaque sleeve) That tends to solve that problem>
Edit: according to magiclibrarities.net there were 20,000 Pro Tour Collector's Sets produced.
I'd suggest people give a thought to what else could be done to increase availability of tournament legal reserved list cards. Unfortunately any other options I'm aware of require a reprint. We all know WOTC will not do reprints so.......this is the only option I see.
Many people I've debated on this subject take the position that this is only reasonable if everyone can afford the cards and that affordability is only possible with reprints (to provide necessary quantities to drop prices). They argue that if there's not enough reprints to make the RL cards affordable to all, then there's no point at all. I think this line if thought is flawed.
I would suggest that we take a moment to accept, finally, that reprints are not an option for WOTC. The best alternative as players that we can get in hindsight is an unbanning. I see this as the only means of increasing how many people own these cards and can use them for legal tournament gameplay.
We have to take the history of these cards into consideration though and accept that not everyone is still going to be able to afford them if unbanned, and that's ok. We can't be so greedy as to argue for nothing instead of something, and trust me -something is absolutely better than nothing in this case.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
This would be nothing more than a very short lived increase in supply, at best. As soon as WOTC agreed to make Gold border and CE cards legal, the #mtgfinance sector's investors and speculators would be buying out the market to relist for a ridiculous profit. Some already go for $10+ depending on what they are (Grim Monolith, Rishadan Port) because of EDH and Cube and they're the closest things to legitimized proxies. But one also has to assume that those who have these cards would want to trade or sell them to begin with. Most people who sought out those cards up until this point had their own reasons in doing so. The supply of these cards specifically won't necessarily increase as a result. What little in circulation there is will instantly become inflated beyond reasonable levels. This really isn't the solution that some people believe it could be. Yes, one could argue "Something is better than nothing", but I disagree that essentially making those in collection of CE or Gold Bordered cards instantly in possession of live tournament staples is healthy for Magic or their formats, and don't even go as far as to assume that find their market. If they became an item, they may very well be marked up as expensive as their legitimate copies because of the rarity and low print runs. Then you're screwing over the people who collect them or want them for Cubes or EDH for playgroups that allow them because of a losing gamble that it might make Legacy or Vintage more affordable, when the cards that make those formats so inaccessible are underrepresented or not available in the form of those items, anyway.
(Also known as Xenphire)
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
yes permanent and add to that that the print run is pretty much the same from alpha and beta (considering the CE and IE sets) so it has the potential to double the supply of legal cards.
it is all said on the article I linked at the OP. please guys go read that it is really informative.
cheers
Beta 7.3 million cards
Unlimited 40 million cards
CE/IE 4.3 million cards
Revised 500 million cards
Just for some perspective.
maybe it is just that because you don't want to see it, it is all there in front of us.
also what bad could happen to the community or to the game, nothing that I could think... the worst that could happen is the cards supply are not enough or the prices end up too high and then we failed... but at least we tried and that's is much better than do nothing...
also as I said before it could be the first step to a future RL waive.
cheera
Well now I want to peruse ebay and see what madness there is out there for legacy cards.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
That being said, they stopped printing them because fewer and fewer people were willing to pay anything for something that a lot of people didn't allow to play with (tournaments) so it because more of a gimmick than something useful. Even so, I've seen playsets of gold-bordered Force of Wills go for close to $100 on eBay and a single gold-bordered Gaea's Cradle go for around $40 - which is ridiculous, in my opinion. Paying so much for something you can only use for kitchen table Magic - and even then, some playgroups disallow them (which is even more ridiculous, since they are actual Magic cards, say what you will) is beyond words to me. It goes to show how adversely the Reserved List affects the playing aspect of Magic (which is a whole other can of worms).
Since gold-bordered is not legal for tournament play, Wizards should use this apparent "loophole" in the Reserve List verbal promise and reprint cards in gold-border. People wouldn't be able to play them in tournaments so players playing Vintage and Legacy can't use them. So prices on dual lands, Gaea's Cradle, etc. won't drop, which should be okay with collectors. This would be the perfect opportunity so that players who only play casual formats and don't participate in tournaments can still have access to great cards.
Thus, I wouldn't legalize gold-border cards; I would rather have them still be unavailable for official tournaments. That way, more gold-bordered, special-backed cards can be reprinted so that I don't have to spend thousands of dollars for my EDH deck which I only use at the kitchen table.
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I'm more interested to know about the print runs of LED, Gaea's Cradle, and City Of Traitors from the world championship decks.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
thanks for your opinions.
I don't think even a GB reprint is allowed under RL rules...
Also not making it legal would still leave them in a limbo where you would depend on the house/opponent rules to let you use them on your lgs and still illegal on officual tournaments and so would still have zero benefi on that matter.
I know it would hurt non oficial plays like edh or kitchen table due to eventually price spikes on GB cards but those have much less strict play rules in a way you could even use a proxy as your opponent could also. imho.
Also, Lion's Eye Diamond was never printed in gold border. Back in the day everyone thought it was a junk card. It wasn't until the Legacy format started getting explored that player's finally saw it's value.
But you know, even if they made gold cards legal the tendency with that direction is that it causes more interest in related cards to those gold products, so instead of making things cheaper it ends up doing the opposite. Take a look at what Atraxa and Breya decks did on the market. Ajani Steadfast went from 5 usd to 13, Scourglass went from chump rare at sub 1 usd to a 7 usd card over night. Spike weaver, a card on the reserve list that was largely ignored suddenly spiked, and the list keeps going on. All of this comes back to the problem with Eternal: It's just too big for the parent company to ever manage.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
LED needs Storm and Dredge around to really allow itself to be useful. Maybe there could have been a Yawgmoth's Will/LED deck before storm, but I doubt it.