@Soldier You can't compare reserved list antiquing to modern magic. The idea is that chase cards should hold value, but modern is a complete and utter disaster on the second hand market due to the lack of proper support and printings. Wizards created a format and then let it rot while players clamoured to it, resulting in unnaturally high prices on all the chase cards in the card pool. Unless they are intent on self sabotage, there is no way Wizards ever intended 100 usd Tarmogoyfs, Liliana of the Veil, etc. They did this unintentionally by refusing to print the cards sufficiently and pumping the tournament scene, increasing the demand on the cards further.
This is a far cry different than Reserved List cards that are antiques. They hold some value due to playability, but the real thing that holds RL card values is the fact they can never be reprinted. Cards in modern are supposed to be getting reprinted and not in a cash grab 240 msrp box set.
Edit: Actually, I know exactly who wanted 240 msrp box sets. That would be corporate thinking they can cause artificial scarcity, pump secondary market prices, and then sell people on 10 dollar sealed packs without a bunch of people getting angry enough to full out not buy the set. Funny enough it actually works because they neglected to print anything for so long people will literally nose dive the second something like a Cavern of Souls drops below 40 usd. And the real kicker is that those same people think these are good prices and that this is normal.
WoTC needs to continue their new trend of giving a 6+ month lead time when they unveil premium priced products. This has already been the case with the upcoming Commander Anthology product. People should be afforded the extra time to save up for $10 packs.
I'm already giving one store owner $40 a month towards a box of IMA
@Soldier You can't compare reserved list antiquing to modern magic. The idea is that chase cards should hold value, but modern is a complete and utter disaster on the second hand market due to the lack of proper support and printings. Wizards created a format and then let it rot while players clamoured to it, resulting in unnaturally high prices on all the chase cards in the card pool.
Actually, wizards mistake with the modern format started with extended and the overstayed dual land policy. Wizards banned duals from extended and extended players moved to type 1.5. Those players took a discarded format and finally broke it, to the point where wizards was forced to remodel Type 1 and Type 1.5 (as Vintage and Legacy).
But what happen after was a new demand for older cards that were unused in type 1, and the card prices jumped. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale jumped from 30 dollars to almost 500 dollars over night.
Because of the sudden explosion of card prices in Legacy, players were demanding for another eternal format that wasn't plagued with the reserve list policy. Wizards quickly answered with modern. There was already two mistakes upon creation. The first mistake was basing the new format on the new card face (which is why the ban list is long). The second mistake was starting the Modern format when Key cards were already out of print.
I really believe that Modern should had started with M10 and up. M10 because that's when wizards modernize the basic sets. I also believe it was around M10 when wizards announced the Modern format.
Unless they are intent on self sabotage, there is no way Wizards ever intended 100 usd Tarmogoyfs, Liliana of the Veil, etc. They did this unintentionally by refusing to print the cards sufficiently and pumping the tournament scene, increasing the demand on the cards further.
Well, just remember that goyf was already out of print when Modern was created.
If you really want to understand why these cards have a limited reprint run... you should look into the Carrion Ants story.
-------------------------
Carrion Ants Story:
The Reserved List was created in 1995/96, after the printing of 4E and Chronicles. Some of the cards included in those sets had been highly-sought-after cards in black border form; to cite the most notorious example, at one time, the second highest value rare from Legends (behind Mirror Universe) was Carrion Ants; it went for about $55. The price crashed after Carrion Ants was printed at uncommon in 4E.
Oh I'm aware of Chronicles, I lived through it. The difference is the size of the player base and the demand for the cards in question. It would be very hard for them to repeat Chronicles again, as in they'd have to deliberately try to do it rather than accidently do an over printing of a card.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Sadly wizards is NOT going to abolish the reserve list because the collectible value of most of those cards are established as high value. Also, I really believe wizard thinks legacy would be a better format if the dual's were shocklands. And we all know that would never happen because there are too many players willing to pay 300 dollars for an Underground Sea than 15 dollars for a Watery Grave.
If it was not for the reserved list. I think markrosewater would have probably have tried to use them in standard. I think him designing the shock-lands was his method of trying to get duals back in the game. Development though thinks the ABU dual lands are too strong most the time for standard.
Oh I'm aware of Chronicles, I lived through it. The difference is the size of the player base and the demand for the cards in question. It would be very hard for them to repeat Chronicles again, as in they'd have to deliberately try to do it rather than accidently do an over printing of a card.
Sure. I also believe the ban/restriction of sol ring could be a factor on the reduction of the price of Carrion Ants. And lets not forget that Legends had a packaging error that made even uncommon hard to find.
But we have to understand that Magic was very new and in 1994 a good number of CCG's appeared from the woodwork and in late 1995 was the CCG crash. Everybody including Wizards of the Coast was worried. I also believe the CCG crash forced wizards to make Urzas a power format, because the intent was to bring back the original fans, but they didn't realized that Tempest was a major success. Please note that back in those days it took 2 years to make a block.
Yes I do agree it would be hard for them to repeat the same mistake. Also, Magic is established to the point that fathers and teaching their sons in playing the game. Back in 1995, the game was only 2 years old. It was assumed that the game was like a trend - beanie babies - and it was assumed that the game was not going to be around for 10 years. And the CCG crash seemed to accelerate the fear.
If it was not for the reserved list. I think markrosewater would have probably have tried to use them in standard. I think him designing the shock-lands was his method of trying to get duals back in the game. Development though thinks the ABU dual lands are too strong most the time for standard.
I don't think so. Once Onslaught introduced fetchlands the power of dual lands escalated.
I also believe it was Mark that pushed the banning of dual's in extended so players could start playing with shocklands.... Please note that he made the shocklands.
I'm kind of surprised the subtle saltiness that is building up in the mtg community as of late has become so prolific even outside this forum. There has been a number of people I've talked with who don't even come to this forum that seem to share the same dislike of masters sets and the way wizards is handling reprints. Normally this stuff is kind of contained to the internet.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm kind of surprised the subtle saltiness that is building up in the mtg community as of late has become so prolific even outside this forum. There has been a number of people I've talked with who don't even come to this forum that seem to share the same dislike of masters sets and the way wizards is handling reprints. Normally this stuff is kind of contained to the internet.
I'm not sure of the saltiness that you are referring to. The master sets are intended to please a good number of players. Those that causally play the game (they may buy a few boosters), tournament players looking for a cheaper cost or an alternative pimp (they are the ones that buy boxes and/or buy playsets of desired cards), and collectors looking to add another set for their collection (they may buy boxes, but these guys will sit around the draft table and try to pick up cards needed for the set or wheel and deal cards - the object is to complete a collection without paying more than the cost of the collection).
What I found is people like the reprints and not so much the way and the cost they are reprinting sets. The draft experience was way better with Modern masters than amonket, but the cost per pack was a big deal breaker and still is.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I really believe that Modern should had started with M10 and up. M10 because that's when wizards modernize the basic sets. I also believe it was around M10 when wizards announced the Modern format.
...which would mean that at the time of creation, Modern would be one set larger than Standard and would take two years to even get as large as the 4-year Extended format. Terrible idea.
I really believe that Modern should had started with M10 and up. M10 because that's when wizards modernize the basic sets. I also believe it was around M10 when wizards announced the Modern format.
...which would mean that at the time of creation, Modern would be one set larger than Standard and would take two years to even get as large as the 4-year Extended format. Terrible idea.
Maybe wizards should announced the modern format about 6 month's before M10 rotates out of standard...
I really believe that Modern should had started with M10 and up. M10 because that's when wizards modernize the basic sets. I also believe it was around M10 when wizards announced the Modern format.
...which would mean that at the time of creation, Modern would be one set larger than Standard and would take two years to even get as large as the 4-year Extended format. Terrible idea.
I always thought when they created modern they should have started at 7th edition, but since the reprinting the Onslaught fetches my main reason for it is is less relevant. However, 7th edition does include counterspell and force spike.
I really believe that Modern should had started with M10 and up. M10 because that's when wizards modernize the basic sets. I also believe it was around M10 when wizards announced the Modern format.
...which would mean that at the time of creation, Modern would be one set larger than Standard and would take two years to even get as large as the 4-year Extended format. Terrible idea.
I always thought when they created modern they should have started at 7th edition, but since the reprinting the Onslaught fetches my main reason for it is is less relevant. However, 7th edition does include counterspell and force spike.
In a way it was probably a good thing they didn't include 7th edition, because then no one would be able to get an affordable playset of Counterspell and Force Spike. They so rarely reprint them that the prices would have easily gone to 10+ usd a card on counterspell and goodness knows for the later.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I really believe that Modern should had started with M10 and up. M10 because that's when wizards modernize the basic sets. I also believe it was around M10 when wizards announced the Modern format.
...which would mean that at the time of creation, Modern would be one set larger than Standard and would take two years to even get as large as the 4-year Extended format. Terrible idea.
I always thought when they created modern they should have started at 7th edition, but since the reprinting the Onslaught fetches my main reason for it is is less relevant. However, 7th edition does include counterspell and force spike.
In a way it was probably a good thing they didn't include 7th edition, because then no one would be able to get an affordable playset of Counterspell and Force Spike. They so rarely reprint them that the prices would have easily gone to 10+ usd a card on counterspell and goodness knows for the later.
However, those cards are clearly fine in modern. However, yea the price would be annoying. Counterspell sees some play in legacy, but not a ton. It's still a .50 to 1.50 card. If it was modern legal I could easily see 10 dollars. Just more of a reason to bring the core sets back. Also when they bring core sets back they should be big like 7th edition was. 7th edition was like a 350 card set. A great place to reprint cards and not scalp players for cash.
I really believe that Modern should had started with M10 and up. M10 because that's when wizards modernize the basic sets. I also believe it was around M10 when wizards announced the Modern format.
...which would mean that at the time of creation, Modern would be one set larger than Standard and would take two years to even get as large as the 4-year Extended format. Terrible idea.
I always thought when they created modern they should have started at 7th edition, but since the reprinting the Onslaught fetches my main reason for it is is less relevant. However, 7th edition does include counterspell and force spike.
Starting with 7th Edition is an awkward start because 7th Edition was released between Planeshift and Apocalypse, and it seems goofy to include Apocalypse but not Planeshift or Fact or Fiction (especially because Apocalypse was the highest-powered set in that block). If you want 7th Edition, starting at Invasion would make more sense.
Though the least arbitrary point would honestly be Mercadian Masques. It's the first set free of the Reserved List, which was the whole reason they made the format.
In a way it was probably a good thing they didn't include 7th edition, because then no one would be able to get an affordable playset of Counterspell and Force Spike. They so rarely reprint them that the prices would have easily gone to 10+ usd a card on counterspell and goodness knows for the later.
Counterspell was printed in every core set up through 7th edition, multiple expansions, and a duel deck. That's a lot of printings and I don't think it'd get that expensive, plus if it was Modern legal we probably would've seen more printings of it in supplementary products like Commander decks.
As for Force Spike, it has far fewer printings than Counterspell, but it probably wouldn't get expensive for one simple reason: The card probably wouldn't see much play at all. How much is Mana Tithe used? Yes, I know Mana Tithe is in a less opportunistic color, but if Force Spike were so darn good, one would expect Mana Tithe wouldn't be roughly on the same level as Magma Spray in regards to how much it's used.
In a way it was probably a good thing they didn't include 7th edition, because then no one would be able to get an affordable playset of Counterspell and Force Spike. They so rarely reprint them that the prices would have easily gone to 10+ usd a card on counterspell and goodness knows for the later.
Counterspell was printed in every core set up through 7th edition, multiple expansions, and a duel deck. That's a lot of printings and I don't think it'd get that expensive, plus if it was Modern legal we probably would've seen more printings of it in supplementary products like Commander decks.
As for Force Spike, it has far fewer printings than Counterspell, but it probably wouldn't get expensive for one simple reason: The card probably wouldn't see much play at all. How much is Mana Tithe used? Yes, I know Mana Tithe is in a less opportunistic color, but if Force Spike were so darn good, one would expect Mana Tithe wouldn't be roughly on the same level as Magma Spray in regards to how much it's used.
Yea, I have tried using mana tither. I don't think force spike would see much play either. Although it is a fun card to watch your opponent go what... when your playing a deck like Black White tokens. Then watch tempo themselves playing around it.
True counterspell probably would have been reprinted some more if it was modern legal, but at it's current printing. I still see it going up.
To be frank, the problem is that they really need to get the soul of magic back to where it needs to be. Going from Legacy to modern to standard, Wizards just butchered this games soul into a parody similar to Fox Kids taking the axe to the One Piece anime. Prices on the second hand market are a side effect of this change in mindset to a degree, and this is also why I absolutely hate planeswalkers. They introduced those over-complicated pieces of crap because they wanted to mask the fact they are slowly turning magic into a big box of gray goop meant to be fed to a massive generic audience. History lesson: If you try to please everyone, you please no one.
The game used to be far more diverse, explosive, and interesting. Dark Ritual, Exhume, Memory Jar, Turnabout, Swords to Plowshares, and Lightning bolt were built to be high impact cards that could swing the tide of the game when used with creatures and other spells. Those certainly would break the game as it is now, but that's only because they tried to turn this game into an over complicated mid-ranged affair with walkers. In ways, the game has become more about 60 dollar sideboard singles on the secondary market, tournament results, and stale fast/mid ranged creature based decks than what it used to be, which was 0.25-15 usd cards being smacked together into a rough, but effective shell of a deck and then ramming it against your friends at some common meetup.
Why does Magic the Gathering need to become a digital sports game? Why does there need to be so much focus on pitch perfect balance and the application of numbing agents to remove any sense of emotion from it? I think these are better reasons not to buy a masters set, or any set for that matter, than to just stop buying a set to force reprints in other sets.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Engineered Explosives was one of them, but it dropped to 51 usd now. Chalice of the Void is still hovering over 60 usd per card and Fulminator Mage is in the mid 30s right now. None of those cards have any right to be where they are at in price, and technically no card really has a right to be over 30 usd tops, but wizards management of non-rotating formats is basically the stuff of legends at this point. The only thing they want to do is print standard card packs and pretend no one else matters when the game is a sprawling menagerie of different player bases.
The common problem magic has is that fair spontaneous play is near impossible. One person walks into an LGS and asks someone to play magic. He has a modern deck and the other guy has a deck from some past standard. They sit down and play, who do you think walks out winning? Or the scenario one guy walks in with a commander deck, finds another player playing with what looks like a commander deck but is really a canadian highlander deck, who wins? I've seen spontaneous games of magic where one guy owns a tournament level merfolk deck and literally takes out two players at a game table playing scrapped together limited decks. Needless to say those two other players aren't happy.
It all comes down to the fact everyone needs to have the ability to afford the same card pool. If WoTC can't do that then casual magic is dead and all we got left are formats, tournament play, and even more net decking due to lack of security both in feeling you have a fair chance against a stranger and financially.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I used to take out players 2 on 1 with my Mono Black Necropotence, players trying to force cross-format games is not something I am getting worked up over...like come on man.
I couldnt give a single ***** over limited decks losing to tournament decks. If you want to play limited, play limited, dont ruin the game by letting limited compete with tuned, tight, tournament (TTT) deck lists.
I used to take out players 2 on 1 with my Mono Black Necropotence, players trying to force cross-format games is not something I am getting worked up over...like come on man.
I couldnt give a single ***** over limited decks losing to tournament decks. If you want to play limited, play limited, dont ruin the game by letting limited compete with tuned, tight, tournament (TTT) deck lists.
The problem isn't that someone beats the guys using limited decks (that's kind of expected if someone is running a modern deck) the problem is when those players try to come around for round 2, find out the cards they need are scarce and cost a ton on the secondary market to compete, and then never play against you or stop playing magic altogether. Then, it's either you power down or you go find a new play group. Does that sound like fun to you? None of this would even be a problem if wizards actually supported modern and wasn't awful at managing non-rotating card pools. These buffoons can't even figure out that the reason you reprint through standard is that it makes cards available to new players so they can gravitate into playing against people in non-rotating formats. It increases the supply naturally of needed cards like path to exile or land cards like Scalding Tarn in numbers that make these cards available and eventually drive down costs to where more players can access them.
But no, instead we have modern masters 240 msrp box sets that keep the prices high because WOTC has to sell the junk they are making in standard. Then, a couple of years down the line we can all wonder why wizards basically gives up reprinting anything because they made too many unique cards and can't ever hope to reprint them all. That and them enforcing this artificially created line in the sand with prices and where to reprint them.
Message to WoTC: The secondary market is telling you what people want. Stop ignoring it and actually do something with it besides being mr money grabber and slowly killing your freaking non-rotating format by turning into an unofficially supported reserved list, which is basically what is happening with modern masters reprints being the only place they will ever reprint super expensive cards.
(And now to go find the ice packs and cool off for a while before this rumination session begins to cause heat stroke. )
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I like how they use the word "generous" as if it actually applies, when the reality is WoTC has a monopoly on the card game industry that is measurably detrimental to the world economy. The game is simply a means of entertainment, these flimsy pieces of cardboard marginally cost like 4 cents to produce, maybe 10 before shipping in bulk, at most and shipping would probably boost it. WoTC could always print any and all artwork they want at any time they want, but instead of making the game about allowing people to build the creative decks they want, they made it solely about taking as much money from people as they can get away with. All someone needs to do is create a card game of similar to greater complexity with the same universally appealing style of artwork except sell the cards for $1-$2 a piece. Half the people who see it who are familiar with magic will resist, but gradually over time come over to it as friends or people they know choose it over the vastly more expensive magic, and the hardcore fans will fight for some sentimental integrity aspect for the game, but overall will gradually stop participating in the game altogether. Wizards will gradually and appropriately go bankrupt if they do not adapt by lowering their prices, then and people will get what they want. And if the new company does the same, old magic card concepts can be revived, it's not like someone removed them from the game. The only barrier of this is investment money, only a game designer or mathematician with a sufficiently large reputation would be able to garner the loans or investors to fund the $500,000-$1,500,000 or so startup costs that it would take to create a company that would start competing with WoTC, assuming that the company only starts locally. A kickstarter fund wouldn't work because publicly revealing the plans would allow WoTC to legally prepare much too well in advance to immediately sue the new company for alleged infringement on intellectual property rights and/or create counter marketing measures with their vast array of elite lawyers. At a certain point in the future though, it won't matter. WoTC will have grown too big and own too many different games and ideas, the only hope would be if the Federal Trade Commission stepped in after it could be shown WoTC is abusing its monopoly.
Engineered Explosives was one of them, but it dropped to 51 usd now. Chalice of the Void is still hovering over 60 usd per card and Fulminator Mage is in the mid 30s right now. None of those cards have any right to be where they are at in price, and technically no card really has a right to be over 30 usd tops, but wizards management of non-rotating formats is basically the stuff of legends at this point. The only thing they want to do is print standard card packs and pretend no one else matters when the game is a sprawling menagerie of different player bases.
What?!? Chalice is over 60?!? I still have at least a playset of that from playing it in Vintage! Jeez.
Yeah, at times it feels like Wizards didn't really learn from making the Reserved List, and are overly cautious about reprints.
The game used to be far more diverse, explosive, and interesting. Dark Ritual, Exhume, Memory Jar, Turnabout, Swords to Plowshares, and Lightning bolt were built to be high impact cards that could swing the tide of the game when used with creatures and other spells. Those certainly would break the game as it is now, but that's only because they tried to turn this game into an over complicated mid-ranged affair with walkers.
"Those certainly would break the game as it is now." That's ignoring the fact some of them broke the game as it was back then. Dark Ritual was eventually banned in Extended, and Memory Jar got banned pretty much everywhere. Weirdly, Memory Jar might actually be safer in Standard nowadays because the mana acceleration isn't as powerful and there isn't Megrim (or the better Megrim, Liliana's Caress) to combo with, but you throw out the name as if Memory Jar didn't break the game in its original environment.
And while Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares didn't break the game back then (then again, they wouldn't now either--heck, Bolt came back for two years in Standard), even back then they did recognize the fact the cards were a bit above the power level they'd normally want and discontinued them.
Exhume would be kinda crazy today, but that's largely because creatures are better than they used to be and has nothing whatsoever to do with planeswalkers. Turnabout would probably be perfectly fine as long as they didn't put something like High Tide in the same environment, which was the main reason that card was good back then.
Your statement gets even weirder when we consider the original environments some of those cards were printed in. Turnabout, Exhume, and Memory Jar were from the Urza's Saga block... is that really a time we're supposed to be nostalgic for? The time period where things were so utterly broken that, in the space of one year, they had to ban/restrict 10 cards in Standard, 10 cards in Extended, 7 cards in Block Constructed, and 23 cards in Vintage/Legacy?
The game used to be far more diverse, explosive, and interesting. Dark Ritual, Exhume, Memory Jar, Turnabout, Swords to Plowshares, and Lightning bolt were built to be high impact cards that could swing the tide of the game when used with creatures and other spells. Those certainly would break the game as it is now, but that's only because they tried to turn this game into an over complicated mid-ranged affair with walkers.
"Those certainly would break the game as it is now." That's ignoring the fact some of them broke the game as it was back then. Dark Ritual was eventually banned in Extended, and Memory Jar got banned pretty much everywhere. Weirdly, Memory Jar might actually be safer in Standard nowadays because the mana acceleration isn't as powerful and there isn't Megrim (or the better Megrim, Liliana's Caress) to combo with, but you throw out the name as if Memory Jar didn't break the game in its original environment.
And while Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares didn't break the game back then (then again, they wouldn't now either--heck, Bolt came back for two years in Standard), even back then they did recognize the fact the cards were a bit above the power level they'd normally want and discontinued them.
Exhume would be kinda crazy today, but that's largely because creatures are better than they used to be and has nothing whatsoever to do with planeswalkers. Turnabout would probably be perfectly fine as long as they didn't put something like High Tide in the same environment, which was the main reason that card was good back then.
Your statement gets even weirder when we consider the original environments some of those cards were printed in. Turnabout, Exhume, and Memory Jar were from the Urza's Saga block... is that really a time we're supposed to be nostalgic for? The time period where things were so utterly broken that, in the space of one year, they had to ban/restrict 10 cards in Standard, 10 cards in Extended, 7 cards in Block Constructed, and 23 cards in Vintage/Legacy?
There is one principal which would resolve these disputes: if enough "op" cards are reprinted such that everyone has op cards, no one has op cards, because being op would simply be the new normal, there'd be nothing wrong with being nostalgic then. Those cards are only op relative to the bulk of crappy cards that are printed now, but the urza cards would only be average compared to the core cards from the alpha/beta editions. Every legacy player knows 90% of the cards in the game will never get played in a tournament-worthy deck in a million years anyway, so players really don't have anything against op combos until they're on the losing side of them.
The game used to be far more diverse, explosive, and interesting. Dark Ritual, Exhume, Memory Jar, Turnabout, Swords to Plowshares, and Lightning bolt were built to be high impact cards that could swing the tide of the game when used with creatures and other spells. Those certainly would break the game as it is now, but that's only because they tried to turn this game into an over complicated mid-ranged affair with walkers.
"Those certainly would break the game as it is now." That's ignoring the fact some of them broke the game as it was back then. Dark Ritual was eventually banned in Extended, and Memory Jar got banned pretty much everywhere. Weirdly, Memory Jar might actually be safer in Standard nowadays because the mana acceleration isn't as powerful and there isn't Megrim (or the better Megrim, Liliana's Caress) to combo with, but you throw out the name as if Memory Jar didn't break the game in its original environment.
And while Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares didn't break the game back then (then again, they wouldn't now either--heck, Bolt came back for two years in Standard), even back then they did recognize the fact the cards were a bit above the power level they'd normally want and discontinued them.
Exhume would be kinda crazy today, but that's largely because creatures are better than they used to be and has nothing whatsoever to do with planeswalkers. Turnabout would probably be perfectly fine as long as they didn't put something like High Tide in the same environment, which was the main reason that card was good back then.
Your statement gets even weirder when we consider the original environments some of those cards were printed in. Turnabout, Exhume, and Memory Jar were from the Urza's Saga block... is that really a time we're supposed to be nostalgic for? The time period where things were so utterly broken that, in the space of one year, they had to ban/restrict 10 cards in Standard, 10 cards in Extended, 7 cards in Block Constructed, and 23 cards in Vintage/Legacy?
There is one principal which would resolve these disputes: if enough "op" cards are reprinted such that everyone has op cards, no one has op cards, because being op would simply be the new normal, there'd be nothing wrong with being nostalgic then. Those cards are only op relative to the bulk of crappy cards that are printed now, but the urza cards would only be average compared to the core cards from the alpha/beta editions. Every legacy player knows 90% of the cards in the game will never get played in a tournament-worthy deck in a million years anyway, so players really don't have anything against op combos unless they're on the losing side of them.
Then you get where Yu-Gi-Oh is right now, with having to print even more powerful cards every set to keep up with the crazy powerful cards they printed last set. Then ban the old stuff.
Some people don't like the wax and wane style of power creep/power seep in Magic. I prefer it over out of control power creep.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
WoTC needs to continue their new trend of giving a 6+ month lead time when they unveil premium priced products. This has already been the case with the upcoming Commander Anthology product. People should be afforded the extra time to save up for $10 packs.
I'm already giving one store owner $40 a month towards a box of IMA
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
Actually, wizards mistake with the modern format started with extended and the overstayed dual land policy. Wizards banned duals from extended and extended players moved to type 1.5. Those players took a discarded format and finally broke it, to the point where wizards was forced to remodel Type 1 and Type 1.5 (as Vintage and Legacy).
But what happen after was a new demand for older cards that were unused in type 1, and the card prices jumped. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale jumped from 30 dollars to almost 500 dollars over night.
Because of the sudden explosion of card prices in Legacy, players were demanding for another eternal format that wasn't plagued with the reserve list policy. Wizards quickly answered with modern. There was already two mistakes upon creation. The first mistake was basing the new format on the new card face (which is why the ban list is long). The second mistake was starting the Modern format when Key cards were already out of print.
I really believe that Modern should had started with M10 and up. M10 because that's when wizards modernize the basic sets. I also believe it was around M10 when wizards announced the Modern format.
Well, just remember that goyf was already out of print when Modern was created.
If you really want to understand why these cards have a limited reprint run... you should look into the Carrion Ants story.
-------------------------
Carrion Ants Story:
The Reserved List was created in 1995/96, after the printing of 4E and Chronicles. Some of the cards included in those sets had been highly-sought-after cards in black border form; to cite the most notorious example, at one time, the second highest value rare from Legends (behind Mirror Universe) was Carrion Ants; it went for about $55. The price crashed after Carrion Ants was printed at uncommon in 4E.
-------------------------
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If it was not for the reserved list. I think markrosewater would have probably have tried to use them in standard. I think him designing the shock-lands was his method of trying to get duals back in the game. Development though thinks the ABU dual lands are too strong most the time for standard.
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/80133684365/overall-what-do-you-think-is-the-best-designed
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/124771616898/barring-the-original-abu-dual-lands-which-dual
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/60487823476/discounting-the-alpha-duals-what-is-your-favorite
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
Sure. I also believe the ban/restriction of sol ring could be a factor on the reduction of the price of Carrion Ants. And lets not forget that Legends had a packaging error that made even uncommon hard to find.
But we have to understand that Magic was very new and in 1994 a good number of CCG's appeared from the woodwork and in late 1995 was the CCG crash. Everybody including Wizards of the Coast was worried. I also believe the CCG crash forced wizards to make Urzas a power format, because the intent was to bring back the original fans, but they didn't realized that Tempest was a major success. Please note that back in those days it took 2 years to make a block.
Yes I do agree it would be hard for them to repeat the same mistake. Also, Magic is established to the point that fathers and teaching their sons in playing the game. Back in 1995, the game was only 2 years old. It was assumed that the game was like a trend - beanie babies - and it was assumed that the game was not going to be around for 10 years. And the CCG crash seemed to accelerate the fear.
I don't think so. Once Onslaught introduced fetchlands the power of dual lands escalated.
I also believe it was Mark that pushed the banning of dual's in extended so players could start playing with shocklands.... Please note that he made the shocklands.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm not sure of the saltiness that you are referring to. The master sets are intended to please a good number of players. Those that causally play the game (they may buy a few boosters), tournament players looking for a cheaper cost or an alternative pimp (they are the ones that buy boxes and/or buy playsets of desired cards), and collectors looking to add another set for their collection (they may buy boxes, but these guys will sit around the draft table and try to pick up cards needed for the set or wheel and deal cards - the object is to complete a collection without paying more than the cost of the collection).
I think the master sets are ok.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Maybe wizards should announced the modern format about 6 month's before M10 rotates out of standard...
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
I always thought when they created modern they should have started at 7th edition, but since the reprinting the Onslaught fetches my main reason for it is is less relevant. However, 7th edition does include counterspell and force spike.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
In a way it was probably a good thing they didn't include 7th edition, because then no one would be able to get an affordable playset of Counterspell and Force Spike. They so rarely reprint them that the prices would have easily gone to 10+ usd a card on counterspell and goodness knows for the later.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
However, those cards are clearly fine in modern. However, yea the price would be annoying. Counterspell sees some play in legacy, but not a ton. It's still a .50 to 1.50 card. If it was modern legal I could easily see 10 dollars. Just more of a reason to bring the core sets back. Also when they bring core sets back they should be big like 7th edition was. 7th edition was like a 350 card set. A great place to reprint cards and not scalp players for cash.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
Though the least arbitrary point would honestly be Mercadian Masques. It's the first set free of the Reserved List, which was the whole reason they made the format.
As for Force Spike, it has far fewer printings than Counterspell, but it probably wouldn't get expensive for one simple reason: The card probably wouldn't see much play at all. How much is Mana Tithe used? Yes, I know Mana Tithe is in a less opportunistic color, but if Force Spike were so darn good, one would expect Mana Tithe wouldn't be roughly on the same level as Magma Spray in regards to how much it's used.
Yea, I have tried using mana tither. I don't think force spike would see much play either. Although it is a fun card to watch your opponent go what... when your playing a deck like Black White tokens. Then watch tempo themselves playing around it.
True counterspell probably would have been reprinted some more if it was modern legal, but at it's current printing. I still see it going up.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
The game used to be far more diverse, explosive, and interesting. Dark Ritual, Exhume, Memory Jar, Turnabout, Swords to Plowshares, and Lightning bolt were built to be high impact cards that could swing the tide of the game when used with creatures and other spells. Those certainly would break the game as it is now, but that's only because they tried to turn this game into an over complicated mid-ranged affair with walkers. In ways, the game has become more about 60 dollar sideboard singles on the secondary market, tournament results, and stale fast/mid ranged creature based decks than what it used to be, which was 0.25-15 usd cards being smacked together into a rough, but effective shell of a deck and then ramming it against your friends at some common meetup.
Why does Magic the Gathering need to become a digital sports game? Why does there need to be so much focus on pitch perfect balance and the application of numbing agents to remove any sense of emotion from it? I think these are better reasons not to buy a masters set, or any set for that matter, than to just stop buying a set to force reprints in other sets.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Engineered Explosives was one of them, but it dropped to 51 usd now. Chalice of the Void is still hovering over 60 usd per card and Fulminator Mage is in the mid 30s right now. None of those cards have any right to be where they are at in price, and technically no card really has a right to be over 30 usd tops, but wizards management of non-rotating formats is basically the stuff of legends at this point. The only thing they want to do is print standard card packs and pretend no one else matters when the game is a sprawling menagerie of different player bases.
The common problem magic has is that fair spontaneous play is near impossible. One person walks into an LGS and asks someone to play magic. He has a modern deck and the other guy has a deck from some past standard. They sit down and play, who do you think walks out winning? Or the scenario one guy walks in with a commander deck, finds another player playing with what looks like a commander deck but is really a canadian highlander deck, who wins? I've seen spontaneous games of magic where one guy owns a tournament level merfolk deck and literally takes out two players at a game table playing scrapped together limited decks. Needless to say those two other players aren't happy.
It all comes down to the fact everyone needs to have the ability to afford the same card pool. If WoTC can't do that then casual magic is dead and all we got left are formats, tournament play, and even more net decking due to lack of security both in feeling you have a fair chance against a stranger and financially.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I couldnt give a single ***** over limited decks losing to tournament decks. If you want to play limited, play limited, dont ruin the game by letting limited compete with tuned, tight, tournament (TTT) deck lists.
Spirits
The problem isn't that someone beats the guys using limited decks (that's kind of expected if someone is running a modern deck) the problem is when those players try to come around for round 2, find out the cards they need are scarce and cost a ton on the secondary market to compete, and then never play against you or stop playing magic altogether. Then, it's either you power down or you go find a new play group. Does that sound like fun to you? None of this would even be a problem if wizards actually supported modern and wasn't awful at managing non-rotating card pools. These buffoons can't even figure out that the reason you reprint through standard is that it makes cards available to new players so they can gravitate into playing against people in non-rotating formats. It increases the supply naturally of needed cards like path to exile or land cards like Scalding Tarn in numbers that make these cards available and eventually drive down costs to where more players can access them.
But no, instead we have modern masters 240 msrp box sets that keep the prices high because WOTC has to sell the junk they are making in standard. Then, a couple of years down the line we can all wonder why wizards basically gives up reprinting anything because they made too many unique cards and can't ever hope to reprint them all. That and them enforcing this artificially created line in the sand with prices and where to reprint them.
Message to WoTC: The secondary market is telling you what people want. Stop ignoring it and actually do something with it besides being mr money grabber and slowly killing your freaking non-rotating format by turning into an unofficially supported reserved list, which is basically what is happening with modern masters reprints being the only place they will ever reprint super expensive cards.
(And now to go find the ice packs and cool off for a while before this rumination session begins to cause heat stroke. )
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
What?!? Chalice is over 60?!? I still have at least a playset of that from playing it in Vintage! Jeez.
Yeah, at times it feels like Wizards didn't really learn from making the Reserved List, and are overly cautious about reprints.
And while Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares didn't break the game back then (then again, they wouldn't now either--heck, Bolt came back for two years in Standard), even back then they did recognize the fact the cards were a bit above the power level they'd normally want and discontinued them.
Exhume would be kinda crazy today, but that's largely because creatures are better than they used to be and has nothing whatsoever to do with planeswalkers. Turnabout would probably be perfectly fine as long as they didn't put something like High Tide in the same environment, which was the main reason that card was good back then.
Your statement gets even weirder when we consider the original environments some of those cards were printed in. Turnabout, Exhume, and Memory Jar were from the Urza's Saga block... is that really a time we're supposed to be nostalgic for? The time period where things were so utterly broken that, in the space of one year, they had to ban/restrict 10 cards in Standard, 10 cards in Extended, 7 cards in Block Constructed, and 23 cards in Vintage/Legacy?
There is one principal which would resolve these disputes: if enough "op" cards are reprinted such that everyone has op cards, no one has op cards, because being op would simply be the new normal, there'd be nothing wrong with being nostalgic then. Those cards are only op relative to the bulk of crappy cards that are printed now, but the urza cards would only be average compared to the core cards from the alpha/beta editions. Every legacy player knows 90% of the cards in the game will never get played in a tournament-worthy deck in a million years anyway, so players really don't have anything against op combos until they're on the losing side of them.
Then you get where Yu-Gi-Oh is right now, with having to print even more powerful cards every set to keep up with the crazy powerful cards they printed last set. Then ban the old stuff.
Some people don't like the wax and wane style of power creep/power seep in Magic. I prefer it over out of control power creep.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."