You might not have gotten bored. You might have been excited to get more versions of a Modern staple with different art (though to be honest, it sounds like you would be more excited that its price would have fallen below $3). But how can you be sure that nobody else would have been bored?
Oh, and while we're talking about people who supposedly don't exist, I'm one of the players who the LGS-forever faction has been deriding in this thread and others. I've spent thousands of dollars on the game over the last ten years, and own enough rare cards, including fetchlands, that you would probably say I'm part of the problem because they're not in circulation for effectively communal use by rising tournament stars. And I haven't been to a tournament since the Worldwake pre-release. I fulfill my interest in Magic by playing with friends and family, and I have no need for organized play.
Of course, you can all say that I'm doing it wrong, I'm not representative, or maybe I'm just outright lying. After all, it's not like anyone could point those last two accusations at anybody else.
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Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not watching.
They need more PLAYABLE/powerful CREATIVE cards. Not just pushed by being 1 mana less, unique effects.
It hurts the game that they removed land destruction, good counterspells, great enchantments and such from the game. New card types would help.
They wouldn't even need new card types if the game designers didn't focus their game into being super focused at the 3-5 cmc slot. The reason the older sets feel different is that they had cards that were playable at higher and lower CMCs, along with the means to access those cards via creatures like Llanowar Elves and originally Sol Ring. This was intentionally done so players could toolbox insane decks out of different expansion sets and had more freedom in building whatever they were seeking.
The newer design teams feel like they are choking on some sort of E-sport coolaid and picked up their set designs from competitors like Hearthstone, which is intentionally designed from the start to be a tighter game with more restrictions on deck building. This is also why legacy is getting crazy with the creatures, because all the power is focused right in the sweet spot for the kind of old enablers available in the format. The catch is that the old design team put in a bunch of cards to police those enablers, too, such as Wasteland, Stripmine, and Rishadan port, along with quick cast counter spells like Daze and Force of Will.
The new design team basically wants the core game to play out very tightly. The older design team wanted the game to be about discovery and coming up with interesting decks. Competition didn't really get pushed until later, but even during the blocks just before the modern era the game was still very much in the spirit of it's past sets.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
No it isnt. I mean if Pithing Needle is your hill to die on, sure I guess, but I'm talking about the concept behind these similar but different cards. If you want to just keep on with your desire for Pithing Needle (a $3 sideboard rare thats been reprinted), thats fine, but Spyglass in no way shape or form is a bad print, and it didnt NEED to be Pithing Needle.
Again, Vanquish? Yes, thats garbage, and Limited fodder, but Pithing Needle doesnt need a reprint, Spyglass is fine.
To be honest this feels more like you just decided to take an example and had some kind of personal thing going with taking it out of context. Replace X card that does roughly the same thing as a modern staple that has a tacked on bonus or negative and is set at +1/-1 cmc, it doesn't matter. Plus you are saying standard players would get bored and I've played standard recently: We weren't going to get bored if the sorcerous spyglass was pithing needle. The same could be said if they replaced Walk the Plank with some other removal spell that was printed before like Doom blade.
Again, no. In this case I actually am not taking issue with what you are saying (or how you like to say things) but I fundamentally disagree that 'It could have been pithing needle'. It NEEDS to be new things. It NEEDS to be different things, and we again KNOW they do not design/develop for Eternal formats.
I'm all for powering up the sets. I get you on that. I dont need an on theme removal spell to be replaced by Doom Blade though. I dont need Pithing needle when I can get functionally the same, but different SpyGlass.
Different cards, of the same function, are important. It makes decks possible. You need Seize, as much as you need IoK. You need strong creatures at the 2 and 3 cmc slot, and you need multiples, so that variance does not come in and bite you.
If all you do is focus on reprinting (unneeded) cards instead of exploring new space, the game gets dull. I mean look at field of ruin, nobody really cared, its still very cheap, but you know what? Its going to be a modern staple soon, just wait.
Reprints are not the end all be all, and we dont need them as much as you like to think.
You might not have gotten bored. You might have been excited to get more versions of a Modern staple with different art (though to be honest, it sounds like you would be more excited that its price would have fallen below $3). But how can you be sure that nobody else would have been bored?
Oh, and while we're talking about people who supposedly don't exist, I'm one of the players who the LGS-forever faction has been deriding in this thread and others. I've spent thousands of dollars on the game over the last ten years, and own enough rare cards, including fetchlands, that you would probably say I'm part of the problem because they're not in circulation for effectively communal use by rising tournament stars. And I haven't been to a tournament since the Worldwake pre-release. I fulfill my interest in Magic by playing with friends and family, and I have no need for organized play.
Of course, you can all say that I'm doing it wrong, I'm not representative, or maybe I'm just outright lying. After all, it's not like anyone could point those last two accusations at anybody else.
Why on gods sweet earth would you be a problem when it's Wizards of the Coasts job to print the cards that people actually want to play? Even if you bought 10+ copies of Scalding Tarn and just sit on them, that's what people do when a card is highly desirable and needed for multiple decks. People lose cards, they end up in one deck and are needed in another, etc. Having cards that cost 50+ or even 30+ usd in a game that uses sets of four is insane.
Also pithing needle isn't about needing the value to drop, it's about the fact that they printed a card that is effectively pithing needle all over again for the sake of being hip and different.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
...Its not 'effectively' pithing needle. Its close, but its different. Does that difference matter? Likely not, but is it good enough for the environment in which it was printed?
Absolutely.
There are reasons to do this. Now if Pithing needle had never had a reprint, and was a format all star, and cost $20? Yeah, at that point you have room to argue.
Honestly I wish I could say I'm surprised, but you have things like Pithing Needle and then you print Spyglass, because in an eventual state of the magic world, you could build pithing.dec
So even though the effect the card has is not unique to a specific set mechanic, does exactly what is needed, and can easily be fitted into the setting via some creative writing and probably made to fit on theme, they should still make a completely new card that does the same thing? That's kind of how we got to where we are right now in standard with overcosted removal spells. If your only arguments are that it would bore players and it doesn't fit the setting, the latter is easily rectifiable and the former is rather questionable.
The honest truth is it's probably another "too powerful for standard" argument. WoTC doesn't have a setting 3-7 on their 1-10 settings, it mostly just goes from 1 strait to 10 and back again. Also don't ask me how it could be too powerful because I have no idea.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I am going to make a rather different suggestion, Alot has been said about design space, power of cards ect, However what about something that would both lower the price of cards AND increase deck versitilty?
I suggest changing our card limit from 4 to 2. This will likely cut prices since demand will die down and spread out value in a block/set since more different cards must be used. This also maens your games will be mroe diferse and different with other play angles. You an no longer slot 4 of the best you can get 2 then need to pick which of the next two highest that are tried should be the next in your list.
A lot of this has been said elsewhere, but perhaps knowing a number of people want change will incite it.
1. Hearthstone the Gathering needs to die to doom blade. Quickly. I want more answers, more diverse play styles (GPG is a start, lets see some other non midrange decks).
2. Cheapen standard. Spending several hundred on a rotating format doesn't sit right. Especially if there is a real risk of your deck being banned due to R and D's apparent inability to design a balanced format. For an example, they need only look to Pokemon. Aside from a couple misses probably not reprinted because they moved a set by themselves and PCI knows it, they have released supplementary product making many popular cards from the standard format accessible. This tactic is now even reaching into expanded, Pokemon's equivalent of modern, as recent products have reprinted such staples as VS Seeker, Ghetsis, N, Colress, and Shaymin EX.
3. I would like to see more quality printing. The card stock needs to be thickened back up and the colors need to be bold again. Some actual quality control would be nice as well. My entire 2017 commander deck was miscut and it was not nearly the worst incident I have seen.
4. Using the yearly commander decks as a model, make it easier to get into other formats. Assuming the Challenger decks are decent, they are a step in the right direction, maybe even a leap. Hell, if they really want to get people into standard, they might as well bring back worlds decks so people can play casual games with tier 1 decks. If they like it, people might invest in the real thing.
Those are the biggest ones. I have a few more that are, in my eyes, less significant. I would appreciate them nonetheless.
5. Some of the art is boring. There were some hillarious arts in older sets and I'd like to see WotC have a bit of fun with the art. It's a fantasy game after all.
6. Squee better be in Dominaria.
7. Not liking the switch to an E Sports / franchising mentality. Get back to basics. Expanded your market share should not be your biggest concern when 40% of the player base has left in the last three years. Further, this shift in emphasis might explain many issues lately, from cards being overpowered to emphasize the lore to the game being oversimplified to spin off products destined to rot on shelves of unfortunate LGSs.
8. The "complexity" in the game comes largely from needless words on cards that don't contribute much function. I am sure they can design something more elegant then the equivalent of War and Peace amounting to "sometimes this creature gets +1/+1".
9. More good stuff at (un)common would incentivise me to buy packs. If most good cards are rares, why would I not buy singles?
That's it for now. I might add more later. Depends on what new mistakes are made.
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EDH Decks UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition) WRKalemne's Angels BRUG Yidris's Wild Party UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys UBRThe Pretender
I agree it's high time to reprint the higher cost cards across modern in tins and other products, because right now the only people getting their hands on them are people with deep pockets playing modern. Wizards seems to have forgotten that casual and non-GP / Pro-tour players use the same damn cards. If wizards announced an unlimited yearly run of a tin containing Liliana of the Veil or Snapcaster Mage, it's not going to matter how many tins get sold out on first wave. Eventually the supply would overtake the demand and it would set a price cap on the card, which is exactly what is needed right now on a lot of cards.
This is reminding me of how big companies look at nothing but sales charts and then when something goes wrong, they don't know why because their information they relied on seems to point to things being okay. There is no concept of customer satisfaction or where the money is coming from, only that money is coming in and the house isn't burning down. It takes a massive amount of fighting and player loss to get them to even move, and when they do they still rely on numbers and sales charts because it's what they always rely on. Forget the fact that a bunch of people are vocally saying prices are too high on the planechase anthology, or that no one really thinks that a set full of EDH bombs and just a handful of modern staple cards is worth the 240 msrp: What's important is that number line. We're at the point where LGS owners have to keep asking themselves if a set is going to actually sell from WoTC.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I agree it's high time to reprint the higher cost cards across modern in tins and other products, because right now the only people getting their hands on them are people with deep pockets playing modern. Wizards seems to have forgotten that casual and non-GP / Pro-tour players use the same damn cards. If wizards announced an unlimited yearly run of a tin containing Liliana of the Veil or Snapcaster Mage, it's not going to matter how many tins get sold out on first wave. Eventually the supply would overtake the demand and it would set a price cap on the card, which is exactly what is needed right now on a lot of cards.
This is reminding me of how big companies look at nothing but sales charts and then when something goes wrong, they don't know why because their information they relied on seems to point to things being okay. There is no concept of customer satisfaction or where the money is coming from, only that money is coming in and the house isn't burning down. It takes a massive amount of fighting and player loss to get them to even move, and when they do they still rely on numbers and sales charts because it's what they always rely on. Forget the fact that a bunch of people are vocally saying prices are too high on the planechase anthology, or that no one really thinks that a set full of EDH bombs and just a handful of modern staple cards is worth the 240 msrp: What's important is that number line. We're at the point where LGS owners have to keep asking themselves if a set is going to actually sell from WoTC.
I personally dislike the Pokémon tins (they have their own issues) but I agree.
Magic started life as a Collectable Card Game, that was where the game had its sweet spot. When players can acquire the cards they need to play their decks without emptying out their bank account. It was also a time when collectors can complete any given set for under $1000 USD. Far less if you ignore ABU.
Then we got the Reserved List.
Now the game is just an SCG. A Speculators Card Game. There is this huge divide between legitimate collectors and players and those who are investors and speculators. This divide will only grow wider until WotC finally grows a pair and pushes the game back in the hands of players or until the players get fed up and leave.
Last year I picked up a box of Havic: The Bothering. A cheesy spoof of MtG pushed out of the market by a WotC lawsuit. I picked up an opened pack for about $5. Sealed packs went for about $20. A few days ago, Alpha Investors did a video about Havic. Out of curiosity, I checked ebay and an auction for a single new starter is (as of this post) is $125 USD. A check of any auctions before his video? $20... This is the same guy that caused the price of Bazaar of Baghdad to explode from one of his other videos.
Magic does not need to be in a position where any one single "investor" can influence the price of any card in that manner.
I am going to make a rather different suggestion, Alot has been said about design space, power of cards ect, However what about something that would both lower the price of cards AND increase deck versitilty?
I suggest changing our card limit from 4 to 2. This will likely cut prices since demand will die down and spread out value in a block/set since more different cards must be used. This also maens your games will be mroe diferse and different with other play angles. You an no longer slot 4 of the best you can get 2 then need to pick which of the next two highest that are tried should be the next in your list.
That is a radical departure from the current game and would change the game fundamentally on how it is played. I don't think many would be behind your suggestion. Interesting but 0% likely happening. It could open up a new format though, some sort of "Twosies" format, kind of like Commander but with up to 2 copies available. Again though, don't think there would be a lot of interest in it.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
That's how markets work. Any pushing against investment in something that has a market is basically an attempt to deny the laws of economics...
Sure... Little Timmy doesn't need to play Magic if he doesn't have the money. It's not a basic necessity. However, Magic doesn't need to be an exclusive yacht club.
Economics also say Magic can bottom out. Players leave because they get fed up with this garbage, WotC decides to call it quit and the printings stop and where's your precious investment then?
I'm sure there'll be some residual "value". There'll be pockets of players who try to carry the game (see Star Wars TCG). Investors might try to prop their prices up one way or the other. Someone might even try to buy the brand and revitalize it.
As I alluded to before. Magic shouldn't be a game of price speculation.
Speculation isn't in itself the reason the prices go up. Speculators are speculating that the price on something will rise because of knowledge and foresight with how the market works that they are speculating in. The main reason people complain about MtG finance and speculators isn't really due to the speculators themselves as much as wizards own behavior in regards to handling demand on cards. To me, it feels like the company has decided to do a crop rotation on the player base and just sort of farm the market for cash instead of supporting the market and the players.
Wizards genuinely needs to do a huge restock on zen fetches, snaps, lilies, tarmogoyf, and other hilariously overpriced cards somehow, but instead they have fallen into a bad pattern of not reprinting high demand cards because of the price tag. Their best effort has been to throw everything high value into masters sets, limit the print runs, and set a really high floor to a lot of the biggest cards in competitive magic at the detriment to just about everyone playing the game.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Reading through some of the posts in this thread there seems to be a very common trend. Everyone (almost everyone) is complaining about the price of playing magic.
I think this argument has mostly referred to modern and eternal formats, but I don't think lowering the price of playing modern/legacy is what is going to make magic a better game. The large price of buying a modern or legacy deck to me seems to be more so an indicator that magic isn't in a horrible spot given the demand exists to create those prices.
What is going to make magic a healthier game is likely focusing more on standard. In the past wizards printed cards without really thinking or caring about the impact on other formats. Now when printing cards they're keeping multiple formats in mind such as edh and modern.
For magic to be a healthier game, wizards should pay a little less mind to other formats. Their watchful eye on how their printings affect other formats has kept the complexity of standard very low, and as a result has diminished the quality of gameplay and reduced diversity within the format.
More complexity in standard at lower rarity levels addresses two issues. It adds more depth to the standard format making for more interesting gameplay. It also helps address price concerns within the flagship format by printing more commons and uncommons that will see tournament play.
This goes directly against wizards' New World Order, but I think New World Order was a mistake to begin with. Sure there is a balance to be struck, but as it stands, standard is neither an engaging format nor a fun one.
The key to magic's long term success is through making standard enjoyable. This might mean enabling more archetypes to be powerful, it might mean printing land destruction again, and it could be just printing more complex cards. Making standard better should be the number one priority as that is always a big source of Wizard's revenue. Ensuring that Magic is profitable for the company producing it is what will increase magic's longevity.
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--> Modern <-- RBUSplinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBU UUUMono U TronUUU GRGGR TronGRG GWURKnight FallGWUR
1. Use better quality card stock.
2. Use better quality foiling process.
3. Reduce the MSRP of boosters to around $3.33 a pack.
4. Reduce the MSRP of Masters boosters to $6.99 a pack.
5. Print stronger cards in Standard.
6. Do away with common foils in Masters packs. Only Uncommons and above.
7. Find a better random packaging process of boosters that doesn't include tracking. (Rarities within a rarity)
8. Make playable, reasonable value Event Decks.
9. Give away occasional rares and Modern or Legacy promo cards at FNM.
10. Listen to the consumer better. Engage us on sites like these.
That's my top 10. I've got more.
This doesn't make business sense. Dropping MSRP is an awful idea. Drops to MSRP cut into the margins of stores that are distributing the product making the game less accessible. Many stores are already re-evaluating their relationship with wizards after the background check rules. The last thing wizards needs to do is chase more off. Magic has been stable in price per pack for years, and I'm sure printing costs are not going down. I would guess that the quality issues we've seen are a symptom of this. I sincerely doubt that wizards has much room in their margins to drop prices, especially with Hasbro breathing over their shoulders (if you don't know what I'm talking about read into why D&D 4th edition exists).
As for number 5, card power is relative. We've don't need more powerful cards. Vanilla 1 mana 3/3's are more powerful, but I don't think anyone would claim that they would be healthy for the game. Instead what they've done with rivals of ixalan is much more interesting. We've seen spins on old powerful cards with the transform lands and some awesome mechanics with the "Exile, then cast for free" spell. Playing with new design spaces is much better than targeting a high card power level. We don't need another Jace the Mindscultor in standard. I do agree that we went through a pretty bad year with Battle for Zendikar and Shadows blocks. Power level was low, but the real issue was that the design space was so stagnant. The sets were basically ramp versus aggro without anything more than power/toughness to make cards interesting. Kaladesh was excellent even if the standard format wasn't fabulous. That block has a ton of cards that can get a boost into modern or legacy if new cards get printed to benefit them.
6. For the love of god, no. Don't take away my pauper toys.
10. I guarantee that not all consumers are saying the same things.
I suggest changing our card limit from 4 to 2. This will likely cut prices since demand will die down and spread out value in a block/set since more different cards must be used. This also maens your games will be mroe diferse and different with other play angles. You an no longer slot 4 of the best you can get 2 then need to pick which of the next two highest that are tried should be the next in your list.
Honestly, I would probably quit, or just keep playing with 4 casually. I play magic to build consistent decks. I take a wacky idea, and the format restrictions, add on a few of my own, and then build the best, most consistent deck I can out of that. I have a number of friends that do the same. Moving from 10 cards per deck to 20 would be a massive change, and destroy many of the more interesting cards in the game. Also, this would kill burn strageties. Red could move to aggro or maybe sligh, but the color's power comes from draw consistency far more than others. Green breaks its consistency with ramp, blue and black compensate for silver bullets with card selection, only red or white really play the 4 copies of everything strategy often. Are those the colors that we really need to nerf?
Reading through some of the posts in this thread there seems to be a very common trend. Everyone (almost everyone) is complaining about the price of playing magic.
I think this argument has mostly referred to modern and eternal formats, but I don't think lowering the price of playing modern/legacy is what is going to make magic a better game. The large price of buying a modern or legacy deck to me seems to be more so an indicator that magic isn't in a horrible spot given the demand exists to create those prices.
What is going to make magic a healthier game is likely focusing more on standard. In the past wizards printed cards without really thinking or caring about the impact on other formats. Now when printing cards they're keeping multiple formats in mind such as edh and modern.
For magic to be a healthier game, wizards should pay a little less mind to other formats. Their watchful eye on how their printings affect other formats has kept the complexity of standard very low, and as a result has diminished the quality of gameplay and reduced diversity within the format.
More complexity in standard at lower rarity levels addresses two issues. It adds more depth to the standard format making for more interesting gameplay. It also helps address price concerns within the flagship format by printing more commons and uncommons that will see tournament play.
This goes directly against wizards' New World Order, but I think New World Order was a mistake to begin with. Sure there is a balance to be struck, but as it stands, standard is neither an engaging format nor a fun one.
The key to magic's long term success is through making standard enjoyable. This might mean enabling more archetypes to be powerful, it might mean printing land destruction again, and it could be just printing more complex cards. Making standard better should be the number one priority as that is always a big source of Wizard's revenue. Ensuring that Magic is profitable for the company producing it is what will increase magic's longevity.
The problem is that the prices are not just a factor of demand, but how the cards are being printed and distributed. There's basically two sides to the entire "how to make magic better" ordeal. The first is to get the game design back on track so people can actually enjoy standard again. A fact I've come across multiple times is that the design team actually plays draft with the sets in their off time and don't really play constructed and it's kind of shown in how they tried to put together sets over the last few years. This caused a lot of problems recently, such as a remarkable number of unplayable cards along with some just punching way over their weight in constructed such as Smuggler's Copter. The other part of the problem is that wizards of the coast changed how they did card distribution a few years ago and pulled cards that see high demand from secondary products, with the excuse being they did it so that casual players could buy them. My own thoughts are that they did this to sell masters sets, which has created massive supply problems on major spotlight cards such as Tarmogoyf, Fetch lands, and other such cards for ages that just haven't been rectified.
The thing is the game is played by people in many different ways and all the players draw from the same pool of cards. Because of the massive price discrepancy on cards that get played in modern specifically, this has locked out a lot of rather good build around cards in regards to players who didn't get on board during standard. Right now I'm watching the same situation start all over again with Collective Brutality, and that card probably wont see a reprint until masters 2027 unless WoTC is finally changing their policy and reprinting these in other sets.
Now if people still complain after prices on zen fetches are in the 10-30 usd range or Snapcaster Mage costs 25 dollars a pop, that's more a personal bemoaning of ones financial situation. A booster box of standard is 120 msrp and that's probably a fair price to pay for basically four of a highly desired card. The problem is they are distributing cards in a way that is never going to get the prices under control. Right now the best they are doing is making investors want to jump ship and make players who own the cards have to play the speculator / MTG finance game to get even a decent deal on anything. Just look at how big of a window someone had to get zen fetches with the last masters set: They didn't even drop enough to hit the "buy" zone for most players. Maybe on this forum it hit a bunch of people, but that's because the people here already kind of know how this game ends up playing out.
Basically, WoTC sort of leaves the MTG market to eat itself, while the group in charge of pokemon is avoiding that issue by setting a cap on any of the big name cards.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Reading through some of the posts in this thread there seems to be a very common trend. Everyone (almost everyone) is complaining about the price of playing magic.
I think this argument has mostly referred to modern and eternal formats, but I don't think lowering the price of playing modern/legacy is what is going to make magic a better game. The large price of buying a modern or legacy deck to me seems to be more so an indicator that magic isn't in a horrible spot given the demand exists to create those prices.
What is going to make magic a healthier game is likely focusing more on standard. In the past wizards printed cards without really thinking or caring about the impact on other formats. Now when printing cards they're keeping multiple formats in mind such as edh and modern.
For magic to be a healthier game, wizards should pay a little less mind to other formats. Their watchful eye on how their printings affect other formats has kept the complexity of standard very low, and as a result has diminished the quality of gameplay and reduced diversity within the format.
More complexity in standard at lower rarity levels addresses two issues. It adds more depth to the standard format making for more interesting gameplay. It also helps address price concerns within the flagship format by printing more commons and uncommons that will see tournament play.
This goes directly against wizards' New World Order, but I think New World Order was a mistake to begin with. Sure there is a balance to be struck, but as it stands, standard is neither an engaging format nor a fun one.
The key to magic's long term success is through making standard enjoyable. This might mean enabling more archetypes to be powerful, it might mean printing land destruction again, and it could be just printing more complex cards. Making standard better should be the number one priority as that is always a big source of Wizard's revenue. Ensuring that Magic is profitable for the company producing it is what will increase magic's longevity.
The problem is that the prices are not just a factor of demand, but how the cards are being printed and distributed. There's basically two sides to the entire "how to make magic better" ordeal. The first is to get the game design back on track so people can actually enjoy standard again. A fact I've come across multiple times is that the design team actually plays draft with the sets in their off time and don't really play constructed and it's kind of shown in how they tried to put together sets over the last few years. This caused a lot of problems recently, such as a remarkable number of unplayable cards along with some just punching way over their weight in constructed such as Smuggler's Copter. The other part of the problem is that wizards of the coast changed how they did card distribution a few years ago and pulled cards that see high demand from secondary products, with the excuse being they did it so that casual players could buy them. My own thoughts are that they did this to sell masters sets, which has created massive supply problems on major spotlight cards such as Tarmogoyf, Fetch lands, and other such cards for ages that just haven't been rectified.
The thing is the game is played by people in many different ways and all the players draw from the same pool of cards. Because of the massive price discrepancy on cards that get played in modern specifically, this has locked out a lot of rather good build around cards in regards to players who didn't get on board during standard. Right now I'm watching the same situation start all over again with Collective Brutality, and that card probably wont see a reprint until masters 2027 unless WoTC is finally changing their policy and reprinting these in other sets.
Now if people still complain after prices on zen fetches are in the 10-30 usd range or Snapcaster Mage costs 25 dollars a pop, that's more a personal bemoaning of ones financial situation. A booster box of standard is 120 msrp and that's probably a fair price to pay for basically four of a highly desired card. The problem is they are distributing cards in a way that is never going to get the prices under control. Right now the best they are doing is making investors want to jump ship and make players who own the cards have to play the speculator / MTG finance game to get even a decent deal on anything. Just look at how big of a window someone had to get zen fetches with the last masters set: They didn't even drop enough to hit the "buy" zone for most players. Maybe on this forum it hit a bunch of people, but that's because the people here already kind of know how this game ends up playing out.
Basically, WoTC sort of leaves the MTG market to eat itself, while the group in charge of pokemon is avoiding that issue by setting a cap on any of the big name cards.
Isn't that just another reason why they should focus on making standard better?
Not everyone has to play modern, and I would argue that not everyone should play modern. The fact of the past two years has been that standard has been a trash format that most people don't want to play. Given a constant player base, if you have more people playing standard, then the demand (and thus prices) for modern go down, making things like Zendikar fetches and key format staples cheaper.
There seems to be this idea that is almost universal on this thread that the way to make magic better is to make modern cheaper. Sure, maybe for some people individually, but looking at the game as a whole, what Wizards needs to do is make standard a more desirable format to play. If this were to happen then prices may organically decrease on modern staples.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--> Modern <-- RBUSplinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBU UUUMono U TronUUU GRGGR TronGRG GWURKnight FallGWUR
1. Use better quality card stock.
2. Use better quality foiling process.
3. Reduce the MSRP of boosters to around $3.33 a pack.
4. Reduce the MSRP of Masters boosters to $6.99 a pack.
5. Print stronger cards in Standard.
6. Do away with common foils in Masters packs. Only Uncommons and above.
7. Find a better random packaging process of boosters that doesn't include tracking. (Rarities within a rarity)
8. Make playable, reasonable value Event Decks.
9. Give away occasional rares and Modern or Legacy promo cards at FNM.
10. Listen to the consumer better. Engage us on sites like these.
That's my top 10. I've got more.
This doesn't make business sense. Dropping MSRP is an awful idea. Drops to MSRP cut into the margins of stores that are distributing the product making the game less accessible. Many stores are already re-evaluating their relationship with wizards after the background check rules. The last thing wizards needs to do is chase more off. Magic has been stable in price per pack for years, and I'm sure printing costs are not going down. I would guess that the quality issues we've seen are a symptom of this. I sincerely doubt that wizards has much room in their margins to drop prices, especially with Hasbro breathing over their shoulders (if you don't know what I'm talking about read into why D&D 4th edition exists).
As for number 5, card power is relative. We've don't need more powerful cards. Vanilla 1 mana 3/3's are more powerful, but I don't think anyone would claim that they would be healthy for the game. Instead what they've done with rivals of ixalan is much more interesting. We've seen spins on old powerful cards with the transform lands and some awesome mechanics with the "Exile, then cast for free" spell. Playing with new design spaces is much better than targeting a high card power level. We don't need another Jace the Mindscultor in standard. I do agree that we went through a pretty bad year with Battle for Zendikar and Shadows blocks. Power level was low, but the real issue was that the design space was so stagnant. The sets were basically ramp versus aggro without anything more than power/toughness to make cards interesting. Kaladesh was excellent even if the standard format wasn't fabulous. That block has a ton of cards that can get a boost into modern or legacy if new cards get printed to benefit them.
6. For the love of god, no. Don't take away my pauper toys.
10. I guarantee that not all consumers are saying the same things.
I suggest changing our card limit from 4 to 2. This will likely cut prices since demand will die down and spread out value in a block/set since more different cards must be used. This also maens your games will be mroe diferse and different with other play angles. You an no longer slot 4 of the best you can get 2 then need to pick which of the next two highest that are tried should be the next in your list.
Honestly, I would probably quit, or just keep playing with 4 casually. I play magic to build consistent decks. I take a wacky idea, and the format restrictions, add on a few of my own, and then build the best, most consistent deck I can out of that. I have a number of friends that do the same. Moving from 10 cards per deck to 20 would be a massive change, and destroy many of the more interesting cards in the game. Also, this would kill burn strageties. Red could move to aggro or maybe sligh, but the color's power comes from draw consistency far more than others. Green breaks its consistency with ramp, blue and black compensate for silver bullets with card selection, only red or white really play the 4 copies of everything strategy often. Are those the colors that we really need to nerf?
Dropping MSRP a bit hurts the bottom line of course. But possibly losing tens of thousands of players a year that don't then buy those packs hurts even worse. Its the same fallacy that happens all the time. Business loses money and customers, they raise prices to try to maintain cash flow, pushes more customers out, they raise prices again, pushes more out, rinse and repeat to insolvency. Happens in my area of the country all the time and the dunces never figure it out. Drop it slightly and you may see an increase in packs sold. I'm fine with them leaving the MSRP then if other areas would be addressed as I've stated. If I"m paying 4 bucks a pop or 10 bucks a pop I want at least some value on my investment, not a pack full of bulk.
As for #6 you can still get foil pauper jank in Standard Sets and Conspiracy/Draft style sets. Foil commons make me want to puke 99% of the time I pull one and I'm sure I'm in the majority on this one.
As for #10 you are correct. But they still need to listen TO THE CONSENSUS of players/voices out there. Ignoring your customer base is a recipe for disaster.
As for #5 we need better cards period, more powerful can be subjective as well. When 95% of a set is useless in Constructed, there needs to be a change. No I'm not saying they all need to be bombs, but at least get that rate up.
I am enjoying our discourse though, thanks for your rebuttals.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Reading through some of the posts in this thread there seems to be a very common trend. Everyone (almost everyone) is complaining about the price of playing magic.
I think this argument has mostly referred to modern and eternal formats, but I don't think lowering the price of playing modern/legacy is what is going to make magic a better game. The large price of buying a modern or legacy deck to me seems to be more so an indicator that magic isn't in a horrible spot given the demand exists to create those prices.
What is going to make magic a healthier game is likely focusing more on standard. In the past wizards printed cards without really thinking or caring about the impact on other formats. Now when printing cards they're keeping multiple formats in mind such as edh and modern.
For magic to be a healthier game, wizards should pay a little less mind to other formats. Their watchful eye on how their printings affect other formats has kept the complexity of standard very low, and as a result has diminished the quality of gameplay and reduced diversity within the format.
More complexity in standard at lower rarity levels addresses two issues. It adds more depth to the standard format making for more interesting gameplay. It also helps address price concerns within the flagship format by printing more commons and uncommons that will see tournament play.
This goes directly against wizards' New World Order, but I think New World Order was a mistake to begin with. Sure there is a balance to be struck, but as it stands, standard is neither an engaging format nor a fun one.
The key to magic's long term success is through making standard enjoyable. This might mean enabling more archetypes to be powerful, it might mean printing land destruction again, and it could be just printing more complex cards. Making standard better should be the number one priority as that is always a big source of Wizard's revenue. Ensuring that Magic is profitable for the company producing it is what will increase magic's longevity.
The problem is that the prices are not just a factor of demand, but how the cards are being printed and distributed. There's basically two sides to the entire "how to make magic better" ordeal. The first is to get the game design back on track so people can actually enjoy standard again. A fact I've come across multiple times is that the design team actually plays draft with the sets in their off time and don't really play constructed and it's kind of shown in how they tried to put together sets over the last few years. This caused a lot of problems recently, such as a remarkable number of unplayable cards along with some just punching way over their weight in constructed such as Smuggler's Copter. The other part of the problem is that wizards of the coast changed how they did card distribution a few years ago and pulled cards that see high demand from secondary products, with the excuse being they did it so that casual players could buy them. My own thoughts are that they did this to sell masters sets, which has created massive supply problems on major spotlight cards such as Tarmogoyf, Fetch lands, and other such cards for ages that just haven't been rectified.
The thing is the game is played by people in many different ways and all the players draw from the same pool of cards. Because of the massive price discrepancy on cards that get played in modern specifically, this has locked out a lot of rather good build around cards in regards to players who didn't get on board during standard. Right now I'm watching the same situation start all over again with Collective Brutality, and that card probably wont see a reprint until masters 2027 unless WoTC is finally changing their policy and reprinting these in other sets.
Now if people still complain after prices on zen fetches are in the 10-30 usd range or Snapcaster Mage costs 25 dollars a pop, that's more a personal bemoaning of ones financial situation. A booster box of standard is 120 msrp and that's probably a fair price to pay for basically four of a highly desired card. The problem is they are distributing cards in a way that is never going to get the prices under control. Right now the best they are doing is making investors want to jump ship and make players who own the cards have to play the speculator / MTG finance game to get even a decent deal on anything. Just look at how big of a window someone had to get zen fetches with the last masters set: They didn't even drop enough to hit the "buy" zone for most players. Maybe on this forum it hit a bunch of people, but that's because the people here already kind of know how this game ends up playing out.
Basically, WoTC sort of leaves the MTG market to eat itself, while the group in charge of pokemon is avoiding that issue by setting a cap on any of the big name cards.
Isn't that just another reason why they should focus on making standard better?
Not everyone has to play modern, and I would argue that not everyone should play modern. The fact of the past two years has been that standard has been a trash format that most people don't want to play. Given a constant player base, if you have more people playing standard, then the demand (and thus prices) for modern go down, making things like Zendikar fetches and key format staples cheaper.
There seems to be this idea that is almost universal on this thread that the way to make magic better is to make modern cheaper. Sure, maybe for some people individually, but looking at the game as a whole, what Wizards needs to do is make standard a more desirable format to play. If this were to happen then prices may organically decrease on modern staples.
My argument is that I want to see everything get better. A healthy standard will help modern as much as modern can help standard. The reason modern is so expensive is partially because of changes to standard and these changes are also why many have sworn off standard entirely. If people could get to use modern powered cards in a more limited environment (read managed and balanced), that would be a big first step, which is why I'm very much for setting caps on card prices. They can't use Engineered Explosives in standard if the card is costing 50+ usd on the market when the set goes to pre-order.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Reading through some of the posts in this thread there seems to be a very common trend. Everyone (almost everyone) is complaining about the price of playing magic.
I think this argument has mostly referred to modern and eternal formats, but I don't think lowering the price of playing modern/legacy is what is going to make magic a better game. The large price of buying a modern or legacy deck to me seems to be more so an indicator that magic isn't in a horrible spot given the demand exists to create those prices.
What is going to make magic a healthier game is likely focusing more on standard. In the past wizards printed cards without really thinking or caring about the impact on other formats. Now when printing cards they're keeping multiple formats in mind such as edh and modern.
For magic to be a healthier game, wizards should pay a little less mind to other formats. Their watchful eye on how their printings affect other formats has kept the complexity of standard very low, and as a result has diminished the quality of gameplay and reduced diversity within the format.
More complexity in standard at lower rarity levels addresses two issues. It adds more depth to the standard format making for more interesting gameplay. It also helps address price concerns within the flagship format by printing more commons and uncommons that will see tournament play.
This goes directly against wizards' New World Order, but I think New World Order was a mistake to begin with. Sure there is a balance to be struck, but as it stands, standard is neither an engaging format nor a fun one.
The key to magic's long term success is through making standard enjoyable. This might mean enabling more archetypes to be powerful, it might mean printing land destruction again, and it could be just printing more complex cards. Making standard better should be the number one priority as that is always a big source of Wizard's revenue. Ensuring that Magic is profitable for the company producing it is what will increase magic's longevity.
The problem is that the prices are not just a factor of demand, but how the cards are being printed and distributed. There's basically two sides to the entire "how to make magic better" ordeal. The first is to get the game design back on track so people can actually enjoy standard again. A fact I've come across multiple times is that the design team actually plays draft with the sets in their off time and don't really play constructed and it's kind of shown in how they tried to put together sets over the last few years. This caused a lot of problems recently, such as a remarkable number of unplayable cards along with some just punching way over their weight in constructed such as Smuggler's Copter. The other part of the problem is that wizards of the coast changed how they did card distribution a few years ago and pulled cards that see high demand from secondary products, with the excuse being they did it so that casual players could buy them. My own thoughts are that they did this to sell masters sets, which has created massive supply problems on major spotlight cards such as Tarmogoyf, Fetch lands, and other such cards for ages that just haven't been rectified.
The thing is the game is played by people in many different ways and all the players draw from the same pool of cards. Because of the massive price discrepancy on cards that get played in modern specifically, this has locked out a lot of rather good build around cards in regards to players who didn't get on board during standard. Right now I'm watching the same situation start all over again with Collective Brutality, and that card probably wont see a reprint until masters 2027 unless WoTC is finally changing their policy and reprinting these in other sets.
Now if people still complain after prices on zen fetches are in the 10-30 usd range or Snapcaster Mage costs 25 dollars a pop, that's more a personal bemoaning of ones financial situation. A booster box of standard is 120 msrp and that's probably a fair price to pay for basically four of a highly desired card. The problem is they are distributing cards in a way that is never going to get the prices under control. Right now the best they are doing is making investors want to jump ship and make players who own the cards have to play the speculator / MTG finance game to get even a decent deal on anything. Just look at how big of a window someone had to get zen fetches with the last masters set: They didn't even drop enough to hit the "buy" zone for most players. Maybe on this forum it hit a bunch of people, but that's because the people here already kind of know how this game ends up playing out.
Basically, WoTC sort of leaves the MTG market to eat itself, while the group in charge of pokemon is avoiding that issue by setting a cap on any of the big name cards.
Isn't that just another reason why they should focus on making standard better?
Not everyone has to play modern, and I would argue that not everyone should play modern. The fact of the past two years has been that standard has been a trash format that most people don't want to play. Given a constant player base, if you have more people playing standard, then the demand (and thus prices) for modern go down, making things like Zendikar fetches and key format staples cheaper.
There seems to be this idea that is almost universal on this thread that the way to make magic better is to make modern cheaper. Sure, maybe for some people individually, but looking at the game as a whole, what Wizards needs to do is make standard a more desirable format to play. If this were to happen then prices may organically decrease on modern staples.
My argument is that I want to see everything get better. A healthy standard will help modern as much as modern can help standard. The reason modern is so expensive is partially because of changes to standard and these changes are also why many have sworn off standard entirely. If people could get to use modern powered cards in a more limited environment (read managed and balanced), that would be a big first step, which is why I'm very much for setting caps on card prices. They can't use Engineered Explosives in standard if the card is costing 50+ usd on the market when the set goes to pre-order.
This is where I think Wizards shouldn't take card prices into consideration when designing sets. I don't think there needs to be a price cap, but I don't think wizards should decide to not reprint a card due to price.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--> Modern <-- RBUSplinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBU UUUMono U TronUUU GRGGR TronGRG GWURKnight FallGWUR
It's pretty likely the reason they aren't reprinting expensive cards in standard is due to the complaints about how expensive standard is. When they tried it with Thoughtsieze the problem is pretty much exactly as I described: The card started out the gate at 25 dollars a piece, then as packs got opened the price slowly dropped dollar by dollar as the weeks passed, so if they put something like Noble Heirarch in standard again it's starting price will be a whopping 54 dollars and follow the same exact trajectory due to standard demand. The only way they can ever print these cards in standard again is to print these in other products that cap the price first. That is something WoTC is notoriously bad at: basically running fire control on the secondary market for rotated cards. If they actually did things that made sense they'd have been printing the fetchlands, goyf, etc, like crazy until things settled down. Instead they basically just ignore it or let it churn up so they can reap a harvest season with masters sets.
Some cards like JTMS will never see standard again, but there's plenty of cards that are fair in standard that are just being priced out. Arcbound Ravager, Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster Mage, and a few other creatures are safe in a standard environment. Liliana of the Veil is safe as well, but the price alone was probably the reason it didn't show up in Eldrich moon.
The fact is that wizards has to do fire control. None of these price spikes would be as bad as they are if wizards did regular promo runs, put these cards in secondary products that show up in walmarts with high print runs, etc.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
You might not have gotten bored. You might have been excited to get more versions of a Modern staple with different art (though to be honest, it sounds like you would be more excited that its price would have fallen below $3). But how can you be sure that nobody else would have been bored?
Oh, and while we're talking about people who supposedly don't exist, I'm one of the players who the LGS-forever faction has been deriding in this thread and others. I've spent thousands of dollars on the game over the last ten years, and own enough rare cards, including fetchlands, that you would probably say I'm part of the problem because they're not in circulation for effectively communal use by rising tournament stars. And I haven't been to a tournament since the Worldwake pre-release. I fulfill my interest in Magic by playing with friends and family, and I have no need for organized play.
Of course, you can all say that I'm doing it wrong, I'm not representative, or maybe I'm just outright lying. After all, it's not like anyone could point those last two accusations at anybody else.
They wouldn't even need new card types if the game designers didn't focus their game into being super focused at the 3-5 cmc slot. The reason the older sets feel different is that they had cards that were playable at higher and lower CMCs, along with the means to access those cards via creatures like Llanowar Elves and originally Sol Ring. This was intentionally done so players could toolbox insane decks out of different expansion sets and had more freedom in building whatever they were seeking.
The newer design teams feel like they are choking on some sort of E-sport coolaid and picked up their set designs from competitors like Hearthstone, which is intentionally designed from the start to be a tighter game with more restrictions on deck building. This is also why legacy is getting crazy with the creatures, because all the power is focused right in the sweet spot for the kind of old enablers available in the format. The catch is that the old design team put in a bunch of cards to police those enablers, too, such as Wasteland, Stripmine, and Rishadan port, along with quick cast counter spells like Daze and Force of Will.
The new design team basically wants the core game to play out very tightly. The older design team wanted the game to be about discovery and coming up with interesting decks. Competition didn't really get pushed until later, but even during the blocks just before the modern era the game was still very much in the spirit of it's past sets.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Again, no. In this case I actually am not taking issue with what you are saying (or how you like to say things) but I fundamentally disagree that 'It could have been pithing needle'. It NEEDS to be new things. It NEEDS to be different things, and we again KNOW they do not design/develop for Eternal formats.
I'm all for powering up the sets. I get you on that. I dont need an on theme removal spell to be replaced by Doom Blade though. I dont need Pithing needle when I can get functionally the same, but different SpyGlass.
Different cards, of the same function, are important. It makes decks possible. You need Seize, as much as you need IoK. You need strong creatures at the 2 and 3 cmc slot, and you need multiples, so that variance does not come in and bite you.
If all you do is focus on reprinting (unneeded) cards instead of exploring new space, the game gets dull. I mean look at field of ruin, nobody really cared, its still very cheap, but you know what? Its going to be a modern staple soon, just wait.
Reprints are not the end all be all, and we dont need them as much as you like to think.
Spirits
Why on gods sweet earth would you be a problem when it's Wizards of the Coasts job to print the cards that people actually want to play? Even if you bought 10+ copies of Scalding Tarn and just sit on them, that's what people do when a card is highly desirable and needed for multiple decks. People lose cards, they end up in one deck and are needed in another, etc. Having cards that cost 50+ or even 30+ usd in a game that uses sets of four is insane.
Also pithing needle isn't about needing the value to drop, it's about the fact that they printed a card that is effectively pithing needle all over again for the sake of being hip and different.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Absolutely.
There are reasons to do this. Now if Pithing needle had never had a reprint, and was a format all star, and cost $20? Yeah, at that point you have room to argue.
Spirits
Thats how decks come to be.
Loam Lion
Kird Ape
Wild Nacatl
Thats how you get Zoo.
So no, dont hate on slightly different, because its missing the forest for the trees.
Spirits
The honest truth is it's probably another "too powerful for standard" argument. WoTC doesn't have a setting 3-7 on their 1-10 settings, it mostly just goes from 1 strait to 10 and back again. Also don't ask me how it could be too powerful because I have no idea.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I suggest changing our card limit from 4 to 2. This will likely cut prices since demand will die down and spread out value in a block/set since more different cards must be used. This also maens your games will be mroe diferse and different with other play angles. You an no longer slot 4 of the best you can get 2 then need to pick which of the next two highest that are tried should be the next in your list.
2) Reprint high-vale cards to bring down prices.
3) Abolish the Reserved List. See above.
4) Finish cycles of dual lands with basic land types! It's outrageous that allied colors have two more options than enemy colors in EDH!
5) Figure out a new business model that recognizes they can't beat counterfeits in the long term.
1. Hearthstone the Gathering needs to die to doom blade. Quickly. I want more answers, more diverse play styles (GPG is a start, lets see some other non midrange decks).
2. Cheapen standard. Spending several hundred on a rotating format doesn't sit right. Especially if there is a real risk of your deck being banned due to R and D's apparent inability to design a balanced format. For an example, they need only look to Pokemon. Aside from a couple misses probably not reprinted because they moved a set by themselves and PCI knows it, they have released supplementary product making many popular cards from the standard format accessible. This tactic is now even reaching into expanded, Pokemon's equivalent of modern, as recent products have reprinted such staples as VS Seeker, Ghetsis, N, Colress, and Shaymin EX.
3. I would like to see more quality printing. The card stock needs to be thickened back up and the colors need to be bold again. Some actual quality control would be nice as well. My entire 2017 commander deck was miscut and it was not nearly the worst incident I have seen.
4. Using the yearly commander decks as a model, make it easier to get into other formats. Assuming the Challenger decks are decent, they are a step in the right direction, maybe even a leap. Hell, if they really want to get people into standard, they might as well bring back worlds decks so people can play casual games with tier 1 decks. If they like it, people might invest in the real thing.
Those are the biggest ones. I have a few more that are, in my eyes, less significant. I would appreciate them nonetheless.
5. Some of the art is boring. There were some hillarious arts in older sets and I'd like to see WotC have a bit of fun with the art. It's a fantasy game after all.
6. Squee better be in Dominaria.
7. Not liking the switch to an E Sports / franchising mentality. Get back to basics. Expanded your market share should not be your biggest concern when 40% of the player base has left in the last three years. Further, this shift in emphasis might explain many issues lately, from cards being overpowered to emphasize the lore to the game being oversimplified to spin off products destined to rot on shelves of unfortunate LGSs.
8. The "complexity" in the game comes largely from needless words on cards that don't contribute much function. I am sure they can design something more elegant then the equivalent of War and Peace amounting to "sometimes this creature gets +1/+1".
9. More good stuff at (un)common would incentivise me to buy packs. If most good cards are rares, why would I not buy singles?
That's it for now. I might add more later. Depends on what new mistakes are made.
EDH Decks
UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic's spring of life
RUG Animar, Soul of the Elements and friends... lots of them
WBG Karador king of two worlds (value and attrition)
WRKalemne's Angels
BRUG Yidris's Wild Party
UWBR Breya's Terrifying Tinker Toys
UBR The Pretender
This is reminding me of how big companies look at nothing but sales charts and then when something goes wrong, they don't know why because their information they relied on seems to point to things being okay. There is no concept of customer satisfaction or where the money is coming from, only that money is coming in and the house isn't burning down. It takes a massive amount of fighting and player loss to get them to even move, and when they do they still rely on numbers and sales charts because it's what they always rely on. Forget the fact that a bunch of people are vocally saying prices are too high on the planechase anthology, or that no one really thinks that a set full of EDH bombs and just a handful of modern staple cards is worth the 240 msrp: What's important is that number line. We're at the point where LGS owners have to keep asking themselves if a set is going to actually sell from WoTC.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I personally dislike the Pokémon tins (they have their own issues) but I agree.
Magic started life as a Collectable Card Game, that was where the game had its sweet spot. When players can acquire the cards they need to play their decks without emptying out their bank account. It was also a time when collectors can complete any given set for under $1000 USD. Far less if you ignore ABU.
Then we got the Reserved List.
Now the game is just an SCG. A Speculators Card Game. There is this huge divide between legitimate collectors and players and those who are investors and speculators. This divide will only grow wider until WotC finally grows a pair and pushes the game back in the hands of players or until the players get fed up and leave.
Last year I picked up a box of Havic: The Bothering. A cheesy spoof of MtG pushed out of the market by a WotC lawsuit. I picked up an opened pack for about $5. Sealed packs went for about $20. A few days ago, Alpha Investors did a video about Havic. Out of curiosity, I checked ebay and an auction for a single new starter is (as of this post) is $125 USD. A check of any auctions before his video? $20... This is the same guy that caused the price of Bazaar of Baghdad to explode from one of his other videos.
Magic does not need to be in a position where any one single "investor" can influence the price of any card in that manner.
That is a radical departure from the current game and would change the game fundamentally on how it is played. I don't think many would be behind your suggestion. Interesting but 0% likely happening. It could open up a new format though, some sort of "Twosies" format, kind of like Commander but with up to 2 copies available. Again though, don't think there would be a lot of interest in it.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Sure... Little Timmy doesn't need to play Magic if he doesn't have the money. It's not a basic necessity. However, Magic doesn't need to be an exclusive yacht club.
Economics also say Magic can bottom out. Players leave because they get fed up with this garbage, WotC decides to call it quit and the printings stop and where's your precious investment then?
I'm sure there'll be some residual "value". There'll be pockets of players who try to carry the game (see Star Wars TCG). Investors might try to prop their prices up one way or the other. Someone might even try to buy the brand and revitalize it.
As I alluded to before. Magic shouldn't be a game of price speculation.
Wizards genuinely needs to do a huge restock on zen fetches, snaps, lilies, tarmogoyf, and other hilariously overpriced cards somehow, but instead they have fallen into a bad pattern of not reprinting high demand cards because of the price tag. Their best effort has been to throw everything high value into masters sets, limit the print runs, and set a really high floor to a lot of the biggest cards in competitive magic at the detriment to just about everyone playing the game.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think this argument has mostly referred to modern and eternal formats, but I don't think lowering the price of playing modern/legacy is what is going to make magic a better game. The large price of buying a modern or legacy deck to me seems to be more so an indicator that magic isn't in a horrible spot given the demand exists to create those prices.
What is going to make magic a healthier game is likely focusing more on standard. In the past wizards printed cards without really thinking or caring about the impact on other formats. Now when printing cards they're keeping multiple formats in mind such as edh and modern.
For magic to be a healthier game, wizards should pay a little less mind to other formats. Their watchful eye on how their printings affect other formats has kept the complexity of standard very low, and as a result has diminished the quality of gameplay and reduced diversity within the format.
More complexity in standard at lower rarity levels addresses two issues. It adds more depth to the standard format making for more interesting gameplay. It also helps address price concerns within the flagship format by printing more commons and uncommons that will see tournament play.
This goes directly against wizards' New World Order, but I think New World Order was a mistake to begin with. Sure there is a balance to be struck, but as it stands, standard is neither an engaging format nor a fun one.
The key to magic's long term success is through making standard enjoyable. This might mean enabling more archetypes to be powerful, it might mean printing land destruction again, and it could be just printing more complex cards. Making standard better should be the number one priority as that is always a big source of Wizard's revenue. Ensuring that Magic is profitable for the company producing it is what will increase magic's longevity.
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
This doesn't make business sense. Dropping MSRP is an awful idea. Drops to MSRP cut into the margins of stores that are distributing the product making the game less accessible. Many stores are already re-evaluating their relationship with wizards after the background check rules. The last thing wizards needs to do is chase more off. Magic has been stable in price per pack for years, and I'm sure printing costs are not going down. I would guess that the quality issues we've seen are a symptom of this. I sincerely doubt that wizards has much room in their margins to drop prices, especially with Hasbro breathing over their shoulders (if you don't know what I'm talking about read into why D&D 4th edition exists).
As for number 5, card power is relative. We've don't need more powerful cards. Vanilla 1 mana 3/3's are more powerful, but I don't think anyone would claim that they would be healthy for the game. Instead what they've done with rivals of ixalan is much more interesting. We've seen spins on old powerful cards with the transform lands and some awesome mechanics with the "Exile, then cast for free" spell. Playing with new design spaces is much better than targeting a high card power level. We don't need another Jace the Mindscultor in standard. I do agree that we went through a pretty bad year with Battle for Zendikar and Shadows blocks. Power level was low, but the real issue was that the design space was so stagnant. The sets were basically ramp versus aggro without anything more than power/toughness to make cards interesting. Kaladesh was excellent even if the standard format wasn't fabulous. That block has a ton of cards that can get a boost into modern or legacy if new cards get printed to benefit them.
6. For the love of god, no. Don't take away my pauper toys.
10. I guarantee that not all consumers are saying the same things.
Honestly, I would probably quit, or just keep playing with 4 casually. I play magic to build consistent decks. I take a wacky idea, and the format restrictions, add on a few of my own, and then build the best, most consistent deck I can out of that. I have a number of friends that do the same. Moving from 10 cards per deck to 20 would be a massive change, and destroy many of the more interesting cards in the game. Also, this would kill burn strageties. Red could move to aggro or maybe sligh, but the color's power comes from draw consistency far more than others. Green breaks its consistency with ramp, blue and black compensate for silver bullets with card selection, only red or white really play the 4 copies of everything strategy often. Are those the colors that we really need to nerf?
The problem is that the prices are not just a factor of demand, but how the cards are being printed and distributed. There's basically two sides to the entire "how to make magic better" ordeal. The first is to get the game design back on track so people can actually enjoy standard again. A fact I've come across multiple times is that the design team actually plays draft with the sets in their off time and don't really play constructed and it's kind of shown in how they tried to put together sets over the last few years. This caused a lot of problems recently, such as a remarkable number of unplayable cards along with some just punching way over their weight in constructed such as Smuggler's Copter. The other part of the problem is that wizards of the coast changed how they did card distribution a few years ago and pulled cards that see high demand from secondary products, with the excuse being they did it so that casual players could buy them. My own thoughts are that they did this to sell masters sets, which has created massive supply problems on major spotlight cards such as Tarmogoyf, Fetch lands, and other such cards for ages that just haven't been rectified.
The thing is the game is played by people in many different ways and all the players draw from the same pool of cards. Because of the massive price discrepancy on cards that get played in modern specifically, this has locked out a lot of rather good build around cards in regards to players who didn't get on board during standard. Right now I'm watching the same situation start all over again with Collective Brutality, and that card probably wont see a reprint until masters 2027 unless WoTC is finally changing their policy and reprinting these in other sets.
Now if people still complain after prices on zen fetches are in the 10-30 usd range or Snapcaster Mage costs 25 dollars a pop, that's more a personal bemoaning of ones financial situation. A booster box of standard is 120 msrp and that's probably a fair price to pay for basically four of a highly desired card. The problem is they are distributing cards in a way that is never going to get the prices under control. Right now the best they are doing is making investors want to jump ship and make players who own the cards have to play the speculator / MTG finance game to get even a decent deal on anything. Just look at how big of a window someone had to get zen fetches with the last masters set: They didn't even drop enough to hit the "buy" zone for most players. Maybe on this forum it hit a bunch of people, but that's because the people here already kind of know how this game ends up playing out.
Basically, WoTC sort of leaves the MTG market to eat itself, while the group in charge of pokemon is avoiding that issue by setting a cap on any of the big name cards.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Isn't that just another reason why they should focus on making standard better?
Not everyone has to play modern, and I would argue that not everyone should play modern. The fact of the past two years has been that standard has been a trash format that most people don't want to play. Given a constant player base, if you have more people playing standard, then the demand (and thus prices) for modern go down, making things like Zendikar fetches and key format staples cheaper.
There seems to be this idea that is almost universal on this thread that the way to make magic better is to make modern cheaper. Sure, maybe for some people individually, but looking at the game as a whole, what Wizards needs to do is make standard a more desirable format to play. If this were to happen then prices may organically decrease on modern staples.
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
Dropping MSRP a bit hurts the bottom line of course. But possibly losing tens of thousands of players a year that don't then buy those packs hurts even worse. Its the same fallacy that happens all the time. Business loses money and customers, they raise prices to try to maintain cash flow, pushes more customers out, they raise prices again, pushes more out, rinse and repeat to insolvency. Happens in my area of the country all the time and the dunces never figure it out. Drop it slightly and you may see an increase in packs sold. I'm fine with them leaving the MSRP then if other areas would be addressed as I've stated. If I"m paying 4 bucks a pop or 10 bucks a pop I want at least some value on my investment, not a pack full of bulk.
As for #6 you can still get foil pauper jank in Standard Sets and Conspiracy/Draft style sets. Foil commons make me want to puke 99% of the time I pull one and I'm sure I'm in the majority on this one.
As for #10 you are correct. But they still need to listen TO THE CONSENSUS of players/voices out there. Ignoring your customer base is a recipe for disaster.
As for #5 we need better cards period, more powerful can be subjective as well. When 95% of a set is useless in Constructed, there needs to be a change. No I'm not saying they all need to be bombs, but at least get that rate up.
I am enjoying our discourse though, thanks for your rebuttals.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
My argument is that I want to see everything get better. A healthy standard will help modern as much as modern can help standard. The reason modern is so expensive is partially because of changes to standard and these changes are also why many have sworn off standard entirely. If people could get to use modern powered cards in a more limited environment (read managed and balanced), that would be a big first step, which is why I'm very much for setting caps on card prices. They can't use Engineered Explosives in standard if the card is costing 50+ usd on the market when the set goes to pre-order.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This is where I think Wizards shouldn't take card prices into consideration when designing sets. I don't think there needs to be a price cap, but I don't think wizards should decide to not reprint a card due to price.
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
Some cards like JTMS will never see standard again, but there's plenty of cards that are fair in standard that are just being priced out. Arcbound Ravager, Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster Mage, and a few other creatures are safe in a standard environment. Liliana of the Veil is safe as well, but the price alone was probably the reason it didn't show up in Eldrich moon.
The fact is that wizards has to do fire control. None of these price spikes would be as bad as they are if wizards did regular promo runs, put these cards in secondary products that show up in walmarts with high print runs, etc.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Spirits