It is important to know why a card is valued at a price point more than just using the price to buffer a set ev. WoTC can reprint modern staples safely because the price is from demand, not necessarily supply. They can't do the same with older cards.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It's the same effect shocklands and fetchalnds faced when they were printed in standard Price dropped by 50% (and stayed there).
If cards like blood moon, chalice, etc. were printed in a pack that only cost $4.0 the value of those cards would quickly be gutted.
I'm gonna disagree with you there on the general rule of these original expensive cards were sold at under $4 per pack when they were new. Time often tells a different story behind the collectibility and power of a card. Who can predict what happens to Liliana Death's Majesty in five years? Ten Years? We don't know what happens to future values of any of this stuff. We can only guess, but the original price point means nothing.
Whether you get Gaea's Craddle for $2.75 cents in 1999 or Lilly for $4 in 2018, doesn't mean anything to what the card will be worth in 2030.
These masters packs shouldn't be any more expensive than any other magic set. They are glorified gambling sets and nothing more, that's why they are expensive.
Masters sets should be reprint sets to help lower the cost of old staple cards that players need for ALL formats. And they should be just as easy to get as a pack of Ixalan, not harder. The more players that have easy access to formats like Legacy and Modern, the healthier the playerbase will remain.
How many people fall out of magic because they can't keep up with countless new sets? How many players stop playing because their decks can't compete with their friends because their friends have Urza's Saga cards?
The collectors ruin this game for the players and the players ruin the card for the collectors. Wizards CAN make both sets of people happy, instead they choose to blindly do money-grubbing dumb crap to make the Hasbro investors as happy as possible, without realizing that their sales would increase dramatically by simply giving players what they want.
I’m of the opinion white border cards need to come back, people want cheaper cards, white border are ugly but you can print those much more heavily as reprints and not affect your pricing of black borders as much.
I am not sure why people are so upset about 10$ premium pack.
It helps keep it from becoming another "Chronicals".
Honestly the thing I love about these "premium sets" is the draftability. It's like playing a mini-cube.
So far - it looks like it could be an insanely fun draft format.
Because no one wants to open a $10 pack to only see a bunch of chaff. If these sets were filled to the brim with value where a player would be guaranteed to get around $10 back in secondary market value, that price tag could be justified but we know that it costs just as much to print Masters packs as it does to print standard packs. This makes these sets stink of being $10 pack lotteries designed to make players hope to pull a Chalice of the Void, Imperial Recruiter or Jace the Mind Sculptor. WOTC is trying to serve two masters and it isn't working. Are these supposed to be value reprint sets or great limited environments? We've already examined how they're not doing so hot on the former and if it's the latter then why do they expect players to drop $10 on limited packs with an experience that as mostly been met with an "eh, it's okay" instead of spending $10 on Innistrad packs, a set widely thought of to be one of thr best limited environments of all time? And if the point of these sets is to offer affordable reprints to players then why are packs over double the normal price?
None of this would be as much of a problem of the packs were normally priced but at over double the normal pack msrp a lot of players do not feel like WOTC is producing a product that matches its price tag. I honestly wonder how sales of this set would look without invetsors and card stores busting hundreds of packs to sell the expensive singles.
See my first point. If packs were cheaper, they could easily become another Chronicles which would be terrible.
The whole purpose of the price point is to prevent another Chronicals. Over-printing (at cheap prices) is just as bad as not enough value.
So if they are just as bad you're telling me that these sets are already as bad chronicles because they don't contain enough value. But you're okay with this extreme but not the other?
Here's the thing, you're looking at this like the knob is only at either zero or eleven. WOTC doesn't have to print all of the best cards ever at common and sell the packs for $4 or sell packs for $10 and only include mostly chaff. They make these products and they can tune them to be reasonable for their price points. If a pack is over double the normal price of packs it should be equal to that in value and/or play experience. And that value should probably be scaled back a bit if the packs were $4. But honestly as it stands now with almost all of the value in these sets being found at mythic WOTC could sell Masters 25 for $4 a pack and I guarantee you we would not have the Chronicles effect because this set is not filled to the brim with value.
I don't think you understand why chronicals was so bad. It had nothing to do with the value of the cards in Chronicals.
In fact Chronicles actively tanked the value of every single card that was in the set. Due to being reprinted into oblivion.
It's the same effect shocklands and fetchalnds faced when they were printed in standard Price dropped by 50% (and stayed there).
If cards like blood moon, chalice, etc. were printed in a pack that only cost $4.0 the value of those cards would quickly be gutted.
The reason why the packs are $10 is to slow demand for the product, so key modern/legacy staples don't become "worthless". This does two things:
a) allows key "chase" cards to retain their value so the set is still worth something even months after the original printing. and b) Allows for a slight decrease in the cost of cards without completely skewing the market.
Something you need to be aware of... Most of us would view the "gutting of legacy prices" to be a GOOD thing, a desired and wanted feature not a negitive. It would never gut the value to 0. It might bottom out the value but due to packs having a cost, the values of a set of desired playable cards will never bottom out. only Level out as the prices of packs are a ceiling for them. I would frankly be very happy to never see another single priced at more then $20 a pop ever again.
Far be it from me to tell people how to spend their hard earned money but it's very clear this is Iconic Masters 2.0 in terms of value. If you want to buy a box simply wait a few months the price should plummet.
This is worse than Iconic Masters as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, expectations run high when packs are $10, and this set disappointed on almost every level.
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Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 6/29/20 (Core Set 2021).
Because no one wants to open a $10 pack to only see a bunch of chaff. If these sets were filled to the brim with value where a player would be guaranteed to get around $10 back in secondary market value, that price tag could be justified but we know that it costs just as much to print Masters packs as it does to print standard packs. This makes these sets stink of being $10 pack lotteries designed to make players hope to pull a Chalice of the Void, Imperial Recruiter or Jace the Mind Sculptor. WOTC is trying to serve two masters and it isn't working. Are these supposed to be value reprint sets or great limited environments? We've already examined how they're not doing so hot on the former and if it's the latter then why do they expect players to drop $10 on limited packs with an experience that as mostly been met with an "eh, it's okay" instead of spending $10 on Innistrad packs, a set widely thought of to be one of thr best limited environments of all time? And if the point of these sets is to offer affordable reprints to players then why are packs over double the normal price?
None of this would be as much of a problem of the packs were normally priced but at over double the normal pack msrp a lot of players do not feel like WOTC is producing a product that matches its price tag. I honestly wonder how sales of this set would look without invetsors and card stores busting hundreds of packs to sell the expensive singles.
See my first point. If packs were cheaper, they could easily become another Chronicles which would be terrible.
The whole purpose of the price point is to prevent another Chronicals. Over-printing (at cheap prices) is just as bad as not enough value.
So if they are just as bad you're telling me that these sets are already as bad chronicles because they don't contain enough value. But you're okay with this extreme but not the other?
Here's the thing, you're looking at this like the knob is only at either zero or eleven. WOTC doesn't have to print all of the best cards ever at common and sell the packs for $4 or sell packs for $10 and only include mostly chaff. They make these products and they can tune them to be reasonable for their price points. If a pack is over double the normal price of packs it should be equal to that in value and/or play experience. And that value should probably be scaled back a bit if the packs were $4. But honestly as it stands now with almost all of the value in these sets being found at mythic WOTC could sell Masters 25 for $4 a pack and I guarantee you we would not have the Chronicles effect because this set is not filled to the brim with value.
I don't think you understand why chronicals was so bad. It had nothing to do with the value of the cards in Chronicals.
In fact Chronicles actively tanked the value of every single card that was in the set. Due to being reprinted into oblivion.
It's the same effect shocklands and fetchalnds faced when they were printed in standard Price dropped by 50% (and stayed there).
If cards like blood moon, chalice, etc. were printed in a pack that only cost $4.0 the value of those cards would quickly be gutted.
The reason why the packs are $10 is to slow demand for the product, so key modern/legacy staples don't become "worthless". This does two things:
a) allows key "chase" cards to retain their value so the set is still worth something even months after the original printing. and b) Allows for a slight decrease in the cost of cards without completely skewing the market.
Something you need to be aware of... Most of us would view the "gutting of legacy prices" to be a GOOD thing, a desired and wanted feature not a negitive. It would never gut the value to 0. It might bottom out the value but due to packs having a cost, the values of a set of desired playable cards will never bottom out. only Level out as the prices of packs are a ceiling for them. I would frankly be very happy to never see another single priced at more then $20 a pop ever again.
Most people would disagree with you. That's what they did during chronicalls and people hatead it.
There is a fine line between reprinting too much and just the right ammount. Too much and you get the chronical/yugio effect. (which most people do not want).
I don't know, the value actually looks "slightly" higher than iconic masters. (Iconic master had no really good uncommons/uncommons at all).
Yes but Iconic masters actually had the better land cycle than this one. The filter lands are barely played at all outside of commander and they are all basically miniature Grove of the Burnwillows, which was around 50 dollars before being reprinted. Now it's basically 10 dollars. These lands may actually drop to 6-7 dollars a piece. Then there is the rest of the rare selection that is basically all over the place. I think there's maybe six cards so far that actually see modern play and have some kind of staying power in the rare and mythic slot? That's pretty damning.
What I'm finding hilarious is that they basically just reinvented a core set and priced it at 240 msrp with only 24 packs. This value spread is just pure insanity and is close to playing a game with invocations/inventions from kaladesh.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Actually, ax man, and I'm not adding to that quote pyramid, but I'd like to see some evidence that most people were angry about chronicles and not just a loud minority.
I said this on another thread, the flaw in your argument is that you are assuming that we are in the best scenario right now. It's perfect equilibrium, and any effort to improve the affordability of modern somehow destroys the game. All investments involve risk, and if your are putting significant amounts of capital into cards that have absolutely no solid guarantees (a/k/a the reserved list) regarding reprints, you should buy with the knowledge that your collection could drop in value at any given time. Hell, I think the reserved list should be expanded, but I am not so naive as to think that the current situation regarding reprints if the best.
Here's the real problem - everyone here complaining? You will still buy product. Most of you will buy a box, or draft a couple times, or save up for the next set and do the same. Hell you'll do it a couple of times this year. If you want to impact how these sets go, you have to both talk about it and NOT BUY ANYTHING. Buy singles online from individuals if you want to play, and build a cube if you want to draft with friends. Make it clear both verbally and fiscally that this is not acceptable, and history shows WOTC will listen.
I know how some of you will react: I want to support my LGS, its not their fault the reprints are such nonsense. You're wrong. If your LGS sells singles, then they are an investor. They want to be able to mark those cards up week to week, month to month, and never see a loss. That is an asset, and they are standing right next to individual collectors ready to complain if WOTC makes one move to help the players.
I have not bought a single sealed product in six months (not just for this reason, honestly). Iconic Masters was a wreck, and WOTC won't think they need to change their attitude until they have multiple sets in a row turn into equally large noticeable dumpster fires.
Actually, ax man, and I'm not adding to that quote pyramid, but I'd like to see some evidence that most people were angry about chronicles and not just a loud minority.
I said this on another thread, the flaw in your argument is that you are assuming that we are in the best scenario right now. It's perfect equilibrium, and any effort to improve the affordability of modern somehow destroys the game. All investments involve risk, and if your are putting significant amounts of capital into cards that have absolutely no solid guarantees (a/k/a the reserved list) regarding reprints, you should buy with the knowledge that your collection could drop in value at any given time. Hell, I think the reserved list should be expanded, but I am not so naive as to think that the current situation regarding reprints if the best.
Here's the real problem - everyone here complaining? You will still buy product. Most of you will buy a box, or draft a couple times, or save up for the next set and do the same. Hell you'll do it a couple of times this year. If you want to impact how these sets go, you have to both talk about it and NOT BUY ANYTHING. Buy singles online from individuals if you want to play, and build a cube if you want to draft with friends. Make it clear both verbally and fiscally that this is not acceptable, and history shows WOTC will listen.
I know how some of you will react: I want to support my LGS, its not their fault the reprints are such nonsense. You're wrong. If your LGS sells singles, then they are an investor. They want to be able to mark those cards up week to week, month to month, and never see a loss. That is an asset, and they are standing right next to individual collectors ready to complain if WOTC makes one move to help the players.
I have not bought a single sealed product in six months (not just for this reason, honestly). Iconic Masters was a wreck, and WOTC won't think they need to change their attitude until they have multiple sets in a row turn into equally large noticeable dumpster fires.
Historically chronically sales tanked. People don't open packs just because they like opening packs. They open them up due to value.
If a set tanks the value of cards enough, it would no longer be worth while to buy that set.
Also - I never stated that I thought the best scenario was right now. I think right now is better then a chronicals scenario, but that's not saying much.
Also - Iconic masters was terrible. So far this set looks day and night in comparison (iconic masters had no good uncommon/commons).
See my first point. If packs were cheaper, they could easily become another Chronicles which would be terrible.
The whole purpose of the price point is to prevent another Chronicals. Over-printing (at cheap prices) is just as bad as not enough value.
So if they are just as bad you're telling me that these sets are already as bad chronicles because they don't contain enough value. But you're okay with this extreme but not the other?
Here's the thing, you're looking at this like the knob is only at either zero or eleven. WOTC doesn't have to print all of the best cards ever at common and sell the packs for $4 or sell packs for $10 and only include mostly chaff. They make these products and they can tune them to be reasonable for their price points. If a pack is over double the normal price of packs it should be equal to that in value and/or play experience. And that value should probably be scaled back a bit if the packs were $4. But honestly as it stands now with almost all of the value in these sets being found at mythic WOTC could sell Masters 25 for $4 a pack and I guarantee you we would not have the Chronicles effect because this set is not filled to the brim with value.
I don't think you understand why chronicals was so bad. It had nothing to do with the value of the cards in Chronicals.
In fact Chronicles actively tanked the value of every single card that was in the set. Due to being reprinted into oblivion.
It's the same effect shocklands and fetchalnds faced when they were printed in standard Price dropped by 50% (and stayed there).
If cards like blood moon, chalice, etc. were printed in a pack that only cost $4.0 the value of those cards would quickly be gutted.
The reason why the packs are $10 is to slow demand for the product, so key modern/legacy staples don't become "worthless". This does two things:
a) allows key "chase" cards to retain their value so the set is still worth something even months after the original printing. and b) Allows for a slight decrease in the cost of cards without completely skewing the market.
Something you need to be aware of... Most of us would view the "gutting of legacy prices" to be a GOOD thing, a desired and wanted feature not a negitive. It would never gut the value to 0. It might bottom out the value but due to packs having a cost, the values of a set of desired playable cards will never bottom out. only Level out as the prices of packs are a ceiling for them. I would frankly be very happy to never see another single priced at more then $20 a pop ever again.
Most people would disagree with you. That's what they did during chronicalls and people hatead it.
There is a fine line between reprinting too much and just the right ammount. Too much and you get the chronical/yugio effect. (which most people do not want).
I don't know, the value actually looks "slightly" higher than iconic masters. (Iconic master had no really good uncommons/uncommons at all).
Different enviroment, Most of the cards in chronicals were valued due to rarity NOT due to play ability. Most cards in modern are valued to due to play ability and rarity. They will still have play ability demand. It will not tank the set because play ability in a fun format will drive demand even if the cards themselves are more common. Magic is also alot larger then it used tobe back then. I would suggest that most sets are printed significantly MORE times then chronicals was. Just print to demand at a normal packs price like any other set. will this make modern cheaper YES but that is a good thing.
So if they are just as bad you're telling me that these sets are already as bad chronicles because they don't contain enough value. But you're okay with this extreme but not the other?
Here's the thing, you're looking at this like the knob is only at either zero or eleven. WOTC doesn't have to print all of the best cards ever at common and sell the packs for $4 or sell packs for $10 and only include mostly chaff. They make these products and they can tune them to be reasonable for their price points. If a pack is over double the normal price of packs it should be equal to that in value and/or play experience. And that value should probably be scaled back a bit if the packs were $4. But honestly as it stands now with almost all of the value in these sets being found at mythic WOTC could sell Masters 25 for $4 a pack and I guarantee you we would not have the Chronicles effect because this set is not filled to the brim with value.
I don't think you understand why chronicals was so bad. It had nothing to do with the value of the cards in Chronicals.
In fact Chronicles actively tanked the value of every single card that was in the set. Due to being reprinted into oblivion.
It's the same effect shocklands and fetchalnds faced when they were printed in standard Price dropped by 50% (and stayed there).
If cards like blood moon, chalice, etc. were printed in a pack that only cost $4.0 the value of those cards would quickly be gutted.
The reason why the packs are $10 is to slow demand for the product, so key modern/legacy staples don't become "worthless". This does two things:
a) allows key "chase" cards to retain their value so the set is still worth something even months after the original printing. and b) Allows for a slight decrease in the cost of cards without completely skewing the market.
Something you need to be aware of... Most of us would view the "gutting of legacy prices" to be a GOOD thing, a desired and wanted feature not a negitive. It would never gut the value to 0. It might bottom out the value but due to packs having a cost, the values of a set of desired playable cards will never bottom out. only Level out as the prices of packs are a ceiling for them. I would frankly be very happy to never see another single priced at more then $20 a pop ever again.
Most people would disagree with you. That's what they did during chronicalls and people hatead it.
There is a fine line between reprinting too much and just the right ammount. Too much and you get the chronical/yugio effect. (which most people do not want).
I don't know, the value actually looks "slightly" higher than iconic masters. (Iconic master had no really good uncommons/uncommons at all).
Different enviroment, Most of the cards in chronicals were valued due to rarity NOT due to play ability. Most cards in modern are valued to due to play ability and rarity. They will still have play ability demand. It will not tank the set because play ability in a fun format will drive demand even if the cards themselves are more common. Magic is also alot larger then it used tobe back then. I would suggest that most sets are printed significantly MORE times then chronicals was. Just print to demand at a normal packs price like any other set. will this make modern cheaper YES but that is a good thing.
History would not agree with you. For example: shock lands and fetches had their value impacts at a large degree by reprints, despite playability.
I don't think you understand why chronicals was so bad. It had nothing to do with the value of the cards in Chronicals.
In fact Chronicles actively tanked the value of every single card that was in the set. Due to being reprinted into oblivion.
It's the same effect shocklands and fetchalnds faced when they were printed in standard Price dropped by 50% (and stayed there).
If cards like blood moon, chalice, etc. were printed in a pack that only cost $4.0 the value of those cards would quickly be gutted.
The reason why the packs are $10 is to slow demand for the product, so key modern/legacy staples don't become "worthless". This does two things:
a) allows key "chase" cards to retain their value so the set is still worth something even months after the original printing. and b) Allows for a slight decrease in the cost of cards without completely skewing the market.
Something you need to be aware of... Most of us would view the "gutting of legacy prices" to be a GOOD thing, a desired and wanted feature not a negitive. It would never gut the value to 0. It might bottom out the value but due to packs having a cost, the values of a set of desired playable cards will never bottom out. only Level out as the prices of packs are a ceiling for them. I would frankly be very happy to never see another single priced at more then $20 a pop ever again.
Most people would disagree with you. That's what they did during chronicalls and people hatead it.
There is a fine line between reprinting too much and just the right ammount. Too much and you get the chronical/yugio effect. (which most people do not want).
I don't know, the value actually looks "slightly" higher than iconic masters. (Iconic master had no really good uncommons/uncommons at all).
Different enviroment, Most of the cards in chronicals were valued due to rarity NOT due to play ability. Most cards in modern are valued to due to play ability and rarity. They will still have play ability demand. It will not tank the set because play ability in a fun format will drive demand even if the cards themselves are more common. Magic is also alot larger then it used tobe back then. I would suggest that most sets are printed significantly MORE times then chronicals was. Just print to demand at a normal packs price like any other set. will this make modern cheaper YES but that is a good thing.
History would not agree with you. For example: shock lands and fetches had their value impacts at a large degree by reprints, despite playability.
This comes down to where we feel the cards should be. I have already stated that I feel the MOST any card should be is $20. That should be a card that is used in Vintage/LEgacy/Modern and standard as a top 4 of mythic. From their it should only go down and dramticly, Shocks/fetches should only be in teh 5-10 range. They never should have creeped higher in the first place.
Something you need to be aware of... Most of us would view the "gutting of legacy prices" to be a GOOD thing, a desired and wanted feature not a negitive. It would never gut the value to 0. It might bottom out the value but due to packs having a cost, the values of a set of desired playable cards will never bottom out. only Level out as the prices of packs are a ceiling for them. I would frankly be very happy to never see another single priced at more then $20 a pop ever again.
Most people would disagree with you. That's what they did during chronicalls and people hatead it.
There is a fine line between reprinting too much and just the right ammount. Too much and you get the chronical/yugio effect. (which most people do not want).
I don't know, the value actually looks "slightly" higher than iconic masters. (Iconic master had no really good uncommons/uncommons at all).
Different enviroment, Most of the cards in chronicals were valued due to rarity NOT due to play ability. Most cards in modern are valued to due to play ability and rarity. They will still have play ability demand. It will not tank the set because play ability in a fun format will drive demand even if the cards themselves are more common. Magic is also alot larger then it used tobe back then. I would suggest that most sets are printed significantly MORE times then chronicals was. Just print to demand at a normal packs price like any other set. will this make modern cheaper YES but that is a good thing.
History would not agree with you. For example: shock lands and fetches had their value impacts at a large degree by reprints, despite playability.
This comes down to where we feel the cards should be. I have already stated that I feel the MOST any card should be is $20. That should be a card that is used in Vintage/LEgacy/Modern and standard as a top 4 of mythic. From their it should only go down and dramticly, Shocks/fetches should only be in teh 5-10 range. They never should have creeped higher in the first place.
I can't say the vast majority of people would agree with you.
Especially not people that have heavily invested in legacy.
I am a competitive Legacy player, Legacy/EDH and draft are the major formats I play. Their are people in the legacy community that would like legacy to be cheaper even if it "devalues" our collection... their are even some that want the Reserve list abolished to gain a larger playerbase.....I guess it depends on the crowd you hang out with that shapes your views.
People don't open packs just because they like opening packs. They open them up due to value.
No, people open packs because they want cards. Whether they want them for limited, to play with in casual/competitive constructed, or for investment/gambling purposes, people ultimately open packs of cards to get to the cards inside. And frankly, dropping the price of singles to the point of affordability isn't the worst thing ever except to the people who buy cards with the delusion of making money off of them. Sure, the value of your collection taking a hit is always a feelsbad moment, but it's not likely to prevent people from buying cards (aside from the people who pretend that a card game is a sound investment outside of recreation).
You also need to remember that Chronicles happened at a very, very different time in Magic's history, something that you simply couldn't reproduce today no matter what you put in a set or what you charge for it. The number of cards available at the time was minuscule in comparison to the number of cards available now, so reprinting a bunch of high-value stuff all at once devalued a very sizable portion of the cardpool. And tbh, with Chronicles predating the modern Internet, it's even harder to tell how many people actually hated Chronicles or if WotC's reactions were mostly driven by a vocal minority.
Stop saying the majority agrees with you unless you have a means of proving it, axman.
A quick google search would highlight that fact. But I'm not going to do your research for you.
There have been entire articles dedicated to the effect of chronicals.
Stop saying the majority agrees with you unless you have a means of proving it, axman.
A quick google search would highlight that fact. But I'm not going to do your research for you.
There have been entire articles dedicated to the effect of chronicals.
It's also known as the Yugio effect.
First, it's spelled "Chronicles" and "Yu-Gi-Oh!". Sorry, but that was triggering my OCD.
Second (for my real point), a "quick Google search" showed me that Chronicles led to the Reserved List. This implies (again, from my "quick Google search") that people who still hate the set do so because it led to something else that they actually hate.
That doesn't mean that reprinting cards to the point where you don't need to sweat gold to afford them can't possibly be done.
Stop saying the majority agrees with you unless you have a means of proving it, axman.
A quick google search would highlight that fact. But I'm not going to do your research for you.
There have been entire articles dedicated to the effect of chronicals.
It's also known as the Yugio effect.
You aren't doing research for them, you're doing it to back your own point. You don't get to just assert facts and then say "go do your own research" when asked to back them up. That's not how arguments work. If you want to prove your point, show your sources.
I don't think you understand why chronicals was so bad. It had nothing to do with the value of the cards in Chronicals.
In fact Chronicles actively tanked the value of every single card that was in the set. Due to being reprinted into oblivion.
It's the same effect shocklands and fetchalnds faced when they were printed in standard Price dropped by 50% (and stayed there).
If cards like blood moon, chalice, etc. were printed in a pack that only cost $4.0 the value of those cards would quickly be gutted.
The reason why the packs are $10 is to slow demand for the product, so key modern/legacy staples don't become "worthless". This does two things:
a) allows key "chase" cards to retain their value so the set is still worth something even months after the original printing. and b) Allows for a slight decrease in the cost of cards without completely skewing the market.
Something you need to be aware of... Most of us would view the "gutting of legacy prices" to be a GOOD thing, a desired and wanted feature not a negitive. It would never gut the value to 0. It might bottom out the value but due to packs having a cost, the values of a set of desired playable cards will never bottom out. only Level out as the prices of packs are a ceiling for them. I would frankly be very happy to never see another single priced at more then $20 a pop ever again.
Most people would disagree with you. That's what they did during chronicalls and people hatead it.
There is a fine line between reprinting too much and just the right ammount. Too much and you get the chronical/yugio effect. (which most people do not want).
I don't know, the value actually looks "slightly" higher than iconic masters. (Iconic master had no really good uncommons/uncommons at all).
Different enviroment, Most of the cards in chronicals were valued due to rarity NOT due to play ability. Most cards in modern are valued to due to play ability and rarity. They will still have play ability demand. It will not tank the set because play ability in a fun format will drive demand even if the cards themselves are more common. Magic is also alot larger then it used tobe back then. I would suggest that most sets are printed significantly MORE times then chronicals was. Just print to demand at a normal packs price like any other set. will this make modern cheaper YES but that is a good thing.
History would not agree with you. For example: shock lands and fetches had their value impacts at a large degree by reprints, despite playability.
Shocklands were 10-20 when they were originally released in Ravnica Block. The cards spiked in value once Modern was announced in 2011. That spike was an artificial inflation of price due to low availability and high demand. The Shocklands were prime targets for reprinting. Even after being reprinted in Zendikar and Return to Ravnica, the value of the original Ranica Block cards is still at or around where it was when these cards were brand new in Standard.
People don't open packs just because they like opening packs. They open them up due to value.
No, people open packs because they want cards. Whether they want them for limited, to play with in casual/competitive constructed, or for investment/gambling purposes, people ultimately open packs of cards to get to the cards inside. And frankly, dropping the price of singles to the point of affordability isn't the worst thing ever except to the people who buy cards with the delusion of making money off of them. Sure, the value of your collection taking a hit is always a feelsbad moment, but it's not likely to prevent people from buying cards (aside from the people who pretend that a card game is a sound investment outside of recreation).
You also need to remember that Chronicles happened at a very, very different time in Magic's history, something that you simply couldn't reproduce today no matter what you put in a set or what you charge for it. The number of cards available at the time was minuscule in comparison to the number of cards available now, so reprinting a bunch of high-value stuff all at once devalued a very sizable portion of the cardpool. And tbh, with Chronicles predating the modern Internet, it's even harder to tell how many people actually hated Chronicles or if WotC's reactions were mostly driven by a vocal minority.
I was around for Chronicles and it was freaking awesome. The expansions prior to Fallen Empires were utterly unavailable for any price in my hometown and cards from Legends were essentially "legendary" as only a few people that you knew had any and you only saw them in issues of Scrye. EV was fairly meaningless outside of the cards everyone knew were pricey like the power 9 as you had to go get a recent price guide to even know which cards were worth anything or even what was in a given set as they didn't publish lists back then.
Getting a casual jank fattie like one of the elder dragons or leviathan back then felt like you won the lottery.
...the players, speculators, collectors. Wizards has to tread carefully, you lose one of those and this game will die.
I wasn't goimg to post in this thread but then I read this. I completely disagree with you. Players keep the game going and make it fun. Collectors(wizards way of saying stores while making it sound like they are players) make sure cards are available and that we have a space to enjoy the game. Speculators are a cancer who add nothimg to the game and who only take money from players and collectors and put it in their own pocket while creating supply issues that reflect poorly on wizards. They add NOTHING to the community.
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it blows my mind how these sets are even selling at all
I think at this point, WotC's sales numbers for Magic sets primarily comes from big MTG retailers like SCG, Card Kingdom, Channel Fireball, etc. Those companies can buy a lot of Magic sets, open the packs, and sell the singles. Players don't buy as many sets or boosters themselves and then they go buy the singles. To Wizards, their sales numbers look fine, because the product is getting sold. If players decrease buying boosters or boxes, but they still buy singles from those sets, Wizards still wins. Demand has to drop significantly to affect these retailers, which in turn affects Wizards, for Wizards to re-think their strategy.
Drafting $12-$15 for a standard set is way different than drafting $30+ for one of these sets. How Wizards can justify a draft design for a set that is rather expensive to draft is beyond me. I really think the draft part of these Masters sets is just a convenient excuse for them to increase their sales by putting in chase cards, because I don't think many players can draft Masters sets regularly like they do in Standard.
...the players, speculators, collectors. Wizards has to tread carefully, you lose one of those and this game will die.
I wasn't goimg to post in this thread but then I read this. I completely disagree with you. Players keep the game going and make it fun. Collectors(wizards way of saying stores while making it sound like they are players) make sure cards are available and that we have a space to enjoy the game. Speculators are a cancer who add nothimg to the game and who only take money from players and collectors and put it in their own pocket while creating supply issues that reflect poorly on wizards. They add NOTHING to the community.
This notion that speculators and investors are somehow necessary to the game's survival is baffling to me. The MTG Finance pundit crew are pretty good at pushing this narrative and people just seem to accept it but it's a complete load of crap. The game survived for a long time without the rampant speculation we see now.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm gonna disagree with you there on the general rule of these original expensive cards were sold at under $4 per pack when they were new. Time often tells a different story behind the collectibility and power of a card. Who can predict what happens to Liliana Death's Majesty in five years? Ten Years? We don't know what happens to future values of any of this stuff. We can only guess, but the original price point means nothing.
Whether you get Gaea's Craddle for $2.75 cents in 1999 or Lilly for $4 in 2018, doesn't mean anything to what the card will be worth in 2030.
These masters packs shouldn't be any more expensive than any other magic set. They are glorified gambling sets and nothing more, that's why they are expensive.
Masters sets should be reprint sets to help lower the cost of old staple cards that players need for ALL formats. And they should be just as easy to get as a pack of Ixalan, not harder. The more players that have easy access to formats like Legacy and Modern, the healthier the playerbase will remain.
How many people fall out of magic because they can't keep up with countless new sets? How many players stop playing because their decks can't compete with their friends because their friends have Urza's Saga cards?
The collectors ruin this game for the players and the players ruin the card for the collectors. Wizards CAN make both sets of people happy, instead they choose to blindly do money-grubbing dumb crap to make the Hasbro investors as happy as possible, without realizing that their sales would increase dramatically by simply giving players what they want.
Something you need to be aware of... Most of us would view the "gutting of legacy prices" to be a GOOD thing, a desired and wanted feature not a negitive. It would never gut the value to 0. It might bottom out the value but due to packs having a cost, the values of a set of desired playable cards will never bottom out. only Level out as the prices of packs are a ceiling for them. I would frankly be very happy to never see another single priced at more then $20 a pop ever again.
My 720 Peasant Cube
Most people would disagree with you. That's what they did during chronicalls and people hatead it.
There is a fine line between reprinting too much and just the right ammount. Too much and you get the chronical/yugio effect. (which most people do not want).
I don't know, the value actually looks "slightly" higher than iconic masters. (Iconic master had no really good uncommons/uncommons at all).
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
What I'm finding hilarious is that they basically just reinvented a core set and priced it at 240 msrp with only 24 packs. This value spread is just pure insanity and is close to playing a game with invocations/inventions from kaladesh.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I said this on another thread, the flaw in your argument is that you are assuming that we are in the best scenario right now. It's perfect equilibrium, and any effort to improve the affordability of modern somehow destroys the game. All investments involve risk, and if your are putting significant amounts of capital into cards that have absolutely no solid guarantees (a/k/a the reserved list) regarding reprints, you should buy with the knowledge that your collection could drop in value at any given time. Hell, I think the reserved list should be expanded, but I am not so naive as to think that the current situation regarding reprints if the best.
Here's the real problem - everyone here complaining? You will still buy product. Most of you will buy a box, or draft a couple times, or save up for the next set and do the same. Hell you'll do it a couple of times this year. If you want to impact how these sets go, you have to both talk about it and NOT BUY ANYTHING. Buy singles online from individuals if you want to play, and build a cube if you want to draft with friends. Make it clear both verbally and fiscally that this is not acceptable, and history shows WOTC will listen.
I know how some of you will react: I want to support my LGS, its not their fault the reprints are such nonsense. You're wrong. If your LGS sells singles, then they are an investor. They want to be able to mark those cards up week to week, month to month, and never see a loss. That is an asset, and they are standing right next to individual collectors ready to complain if WOTC makes one move to help the players.
I have not bought a single sealed product in six months (not just for this reason, honestly). Iconic Masters was a wreck, and WOTC won't think they need to change their attitude until they have multiple sets in a row turn into equally large noticeable dumpster fires.
Historically chronically sales tanked. People don't open packs just because they like opening packs. They open them up due to value.
If a set tanks the value of cards enough, it would no longer be worth while to buy that set.
Also - I never stated that I thought the best scenario was right now. I think right now is better then a chronicals scenario, but that's not saying much.
Also - Iconic masters was terrible. So far this set looks day and night in comparison (iconic masters had no good uncommon/commons).
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Different enviroment, Most of the cards in chronicals were valued due to rarity NOT due to play ability. Most cards in modern are valued to due to play ability and rarity. They will still have play ability demand. It will not tank the set because play ability in a fun format will drive demand even if the cards themselves are more common. Magic is also alot larger then it used tobe back then. I would suggest that most sets are printed significantly MORE times then chronicals was. Just print to demand at a normal packs price like any other set. will this make modern cheaper YES but that is a good thing.
History would not agree with you. For example: shock lands and fetches had their value impacts at a large degree by reprints, despite playability.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
This comes down to where we feel the cards should be. I have already stated that I feel the MOST any card should be is $20. That should be a card that is used in Vintage/LEgacy/Modern and standard as a top 4 of mythic. From their it should only go down and dramticly, Shocks/fetches should only be in teh 5-10 range. They never should have creeped higher in the first place.
I can't say the vast majority of people would agree with you.
Especially not people that have heavily invested in legacy.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
No, people open packs because they want cards. Whether they want them for limited, to play with in casual/competitive constructed, or for investment/gambling purposes, people ultimately open packs of cards to get to the cards inside. And frankly, dropping the price of singles to the point of affordability isn't the worst thing ever except to the people who buy cards with the delusion of making money off of them. Sure, the value of your collection taking a hit is always a feelsbad moment, but it's not likely to prevent people from buying cards (aside from the people who pretend that a card game is a sound investment outside of recreation).
You also need to remember that Chronicles happened at a very, very different time in Magic's history, something that you simply couldn't reproduce today no matter what you put in a set or what you charge for it. The number of cards available at the time was minuscule in comparison to the number of cards available now, so reprinting a bunch of high-value stuff all at once devalued a very sizable portion of the cardpool. And tbh, with Chronicles predating the modern Internet, it's even harder to tell how many people actually hated Chronicles or if WotC's reactions were mostly driven by a vocal minority.
A quick google search would highlight that fact. But I'm not going to do your research for you.
There have been entire articles dedicated to the effect of chronicals.
It's also known as the Yugio effect.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
First, it's spelled "Chronicles" and "Yu-Gi-Oh!". Sorry, but that was triggering my OCD.
Second (for my real point), a "quick Google search" showed me that Chronicles led to the Reserved List. This implies (again, from my "quick Google search") that people who still hate the set do so because it led to something else that they actually hate.
That doesn't mean that reprinting cards to the point where you don't need to sweat gold to afford them can't possibly be done.
You aren't doing research for them, you're doing it to back your own point. You don't get to just assert facts and then say "go do your own research" when asked to back them up. That's not how arguments work. If you want to prove your point, show your sources.
Shocklands were 10-20 when they were originally released in Ravnica Block. The cards spiked in value once Modern was announced in 2011. That spike was an artificial inflation of price due to low availability and high demand. The Shocklands were prime targets for reprinting. Even after being reprinted in Zendikar and Return to Ravnica, the value of the original Ranica Block cards is still at or around where it was when these cards were brand new in Standard.
I was around for Chronicles and it was freaking awesome. The expansions prior to Fallen Empires were utterly unavailable for any price in my hometown and cards from Legends were essentially "legendary" as only a few people that you knew had any and you only saw them in issues of Scrye. EV was fairly meaningless outside of the cards everyone knew were pricey like the power 9 as you had to go get a recent price guide to even know which cards were worth anything or even what was in a given set as they didn't publish lists back then.
Getting a casual jank fattie like one of the elder dragons or leviathan back then felt like you won the lottery.
I wasn't goimg to post in this thread but then I read this. I completely disagree with you. Players keep the game going and make it fun. Collectors(wizards way of saying stores while making it sound like they are players) make sure cards are available and that we have a space to enjoy the game. Speculators are a cancer who add nothimg to the game and who only take money from players and collectors and put it in their own pocket while creating supply issues that reflect poorly on wizards. They add NOTHING to the community.
I think at this point, WotC's sales numbers for Magic sets primarily comes from big MTG retailers like SCG, Card Kingdom, Channel Fireball, etc. Those companies can buy a lot of Magic sets, open the packs, and sell the singles. Players don't buy as many sets or boosters themselves and then they go buy the singles. To Wizards, their sales numbers look fine, because the product is getting sold. If players decrease buying boosters or boxes, but they still buy singles from those sets, Wizards still wins. Demand has to drop significantly to affect these retailers, which in turn affects Wizards, for Wizards to re-think their strategy.
Drafting $12-$15 for a standard set is way different than drafting $30+ for one of these sets. How Wizards can justify a draft design for a set that is rather expensive to draft is beyond me. I really think the draft part of these Masters sets is just a convenient excuse for them to increase their sales by putting in chase cards, because I don't think many players can draft Masters sets regularly like they do in Standard.
This notion that speculators and investors are somehow necessary to the game's survival is baffling to me. The MTG Finance pundit crew are pretty good at pushing this narrative and people just seem to accept it but it's a complete load of crap. The game survived for a long time without the rampant speculation we see now.