I will give you my take.
Firstly- my background, so that you can see any bias. You are welcome to skip.
I have played a long time, I do drafts where the rares are prizes- redraft and by and large I am strong enough at limited to make whatever skills I had pay. Under the K ranking system I would fluctuate between top 100 uk and just outside the top 10 in limited, without ever doing more than a few rounds of a big event outside nationals. Most of my "best" picks in draft are not the hot cards at the time but the second picks where I took a long term view. I started taking an interest in finance around a decade ago. My ebay sales cleared 100+ last month, in the last two I made £1200 plus private sales of 500, my average per month is closer to £100-200, private sales can vary. Rarely someone comes to me with a collection or high end cards to shift on privately, but mainly it is my cards I sell on to obtain higher value ones. My collection is, well, let us just say I store my cards in a safe, I own a lot of legacy decks in that safe, in full, and a similar number of modern decks, and it has mainly been paid for by dropping out of standard and selling off in 2007 or so. I don't touch vintage, I speculate a little here and there, I bought a lot of old boxes when they were sub 100 Euros from European sources, I take advantage of the disparity between Europe and the US, and the disparity between what cards sell for on Ebay and their trade value in dollars. I read mtg finance reddit and Mtgstocks daily, I never post on finance ever- the major patterns in finance are pretty obvious, and when I do get some inkling or a whisper I don't tell anyone because that is not how it works, and, of course, I always sell into the hype and get out early, I am risk averse. The only secrets I can tell you is that anyone looking at finance needs to not play every format because that is how you get stung, the formats you are not playing in are the ones that makes you cash, and that as ever everyone needs to stay ahead of the curve but by definition they can't, so you have to jump first.
On this set I have no special wisdom but I think this will be the last set of its kind. Their formula for all masters sets has been consistent since the second, and it takes no account of price after release, only initial price pre reprint. The formula simply does not work outside of Modern, and barely works within it. We all know a cards value is a function of supply and demand, and that cards can maintain a high price as a function of scarcity rather than widespread demand. Goyf and its ilk drop a small amount and rapidly rebound, because now you need another 3 Goyfs. Imperial Recruiter won't work like that- it has a direct replacement for most decks and inconveniently for WOTC the Top ban killed Imperial Painter, the deck now best as a fring mono U deck. As in the disparity between Chronicles City of B and it's AN counterpart, the original will hold a lot of value, but the reprint won't- 40 dollars or so, maybe 50 if few boxes get openened. For IR read Mana Drain and you are basically there.
Similarly let us assume we all know that the value of the rares and uncommons is a huge driver of the "feel bad/feel" good in a pack. Opening a Bident of Thassa does not feel as bad when it comes with a Brainstorm and foil Swords. This set will feel bad way too often whichever way you run the maths. There is some uncommon value, and common value, but the rare/myhtic value is awfully centered on fewer cards than usual. Even those opening, say for example, a Rishadan Port will feel "great this card is worth X" but then have to try and find a buyer who does not own them already for D N T, brown Stax or Lands. That is a tall order in terms of Lands- if you own a Tabernacle then Ports were unlikely to be an issue, and your Lands deck may run without them. If you are lucky enough to find a Brown Stax player they will probably own all the cards too. If you don't own a Tabernacle then Lands probably should not be your deck choice. Port may be the bottleneck to D N T, and you will find out if it truly is if you check the price of the other cards in the deck, assuming the demand is real and not speculator driven. Chalice and Bridge are cards that are notable for being used in multiples, they will hold a lot of their value. The optimum number of Chalice is 4 in Legacy, but that will lead to a lot of frustrated players. In fact that is this set over - an awful lot of packs will annoy or upset, meaning repeat buyers will be few and far between.
In short the set will bust by virtue of rotting on shelves, low player confidence and a myriad of other factors including the disenfranchisement of the player base by a host of feel-bad decisions over the past 6-12 months. Wizards as ever will get sales to LGS, but they will have cut back on orders after Iconic, and they will not fly off the shelves nor will LGS be clamouring for a second printing. If you assume they saw what happened to Iconic, realised the distribution of A25 is similar, it is likely that they unbanned JTMS to boost sales of a set made with a similar calculation- a few high end mythics, little value in the rare slot, and a large number of cards who maintained a high price due to scarcity rather than organic demand. In short the set is only really worth it as a draft experience, as is often the case, but this is more true than ever. Their careful management of spoiler season felt like Punch and Judy show where everyone can see the hand and the curtain has fallen down, as soon as we got into the third day it was obvious where it was heading.
I know my local LGS ordered less of this set than Iconic. Unless there is some sweet "treasure" esque suprise, the set will basically be Iconic II, but with the added bonus that people's expectations are lower, meaning a few more may buy it and sales might kick in earlier. As Atari found in 1985, when a product is talked of as being dead (8bit e.g. 800XL), and retailers cut prices, it can act as a short term shot into the arm. Pauper too may cause a shot in the arm as there are a few goodies for Pauper players, but it is not enough. If the worst happens with Iconic, and prices get slashed early then all bets are off. If it does not, then I would wager the next masters set has an RRP of about 8$, and may even have some kind of masterpiece/alternate art theme running through them, even affatecting uncommons/commons- rarer art foil Brainstorms, for example, even old style foil ones. The alternative is a masters set with fetches in, which is a sure way to make a set sell, albeit one that cannot be continued indefinitely.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
I agree with pretty much all the negativity here. Something that hasn't been focused on enough is the limited formats, sealed and draft. Is anyone excited to play with this set in limited? What are the fun archetypes that A25 has to offer? Iconic Masters had a great limited format so that set deserves credit for being fun to play. So, I just want to say that Masters 25 also seems to fail from a limited perspective (on top of value not being there and the nostalgia and set themes not satisfying most players).
I agree with pretty much all the negativity here. Something that hasn't been focused on enough is the limited formats, sealed and draft. Is anyone excited to play with this set in limited? What are the fun archetypes that A25 has to offer? Iconic Masters had a great limited format so that set deserves credit for being fun to play. So, I just want to say that Masters 25 also seems to fail from a limited perspective (on top of value not being there and the nostalgia and set themes not satisfying most players).
The draft looks okay with a few archetypes to pick from. It looks like UW blink is a thing, reanimation of big over costed creatures via Zombify and similar cards, tokens, and not sure about the rest. There's definitely an aggressive red strategy in there with the Kindle, Hordling Outburst, Lightning Bolt, and frenzied goblin.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think nobody should buy Masters 25 and my reasoning is
1. Wotc recently unbanned Jace in modern and despite modern being really diverse. The unbanning just feels like a cheap move by wizards.
"Despite Modern being really diverse." Okay, so when should a card be unbanned? When the metagame isn't diverse? But then everyone says that they should wait to unban something until the metagame is better!
Please, everyone. Before you claim "why unban anything, it's diverse" please answer the question of when they SHOULD be unbanning something.
I think nobody should buy Masters 25 and my reasoning is
1. Wotc recently unbanned Jace in modern and despite modern being really diverse. The unbanning just feels like a cheap move by wizards.
"Despite Modern being really diverse." Okay, so when should a card be unbanned? When the metagame isn't diverse? But then everyone says that they should wait to unban something until the metagame is better!
Please, everyone. Before you claim "why unban anything, it's diverse" please answer the question of when they SHOULD be unbanning something.
I personally won't be buying any boosters, singles or trade cards that are included in masters 25 until jace is banned.
Even though so far, there is no real evidence that Jace is so powerful he warrants rebanning, and a decent amount of evidence against?
Lets be fair here. Unbanning Jace was done because they needed to sell the set.
please answer the question of when they SHOULD be unbanning something.
There is this old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". What's next? Wotc notices development of MM19 that the set is yet another train wreck so they decide to unban Skullclamp and print that as a mythic.
I'm not opposed to the reprints, i like having a set that puts more old cards into circulation i've been looking for azusa's forever and i might actually find one now but I have to agree that these feel like money grabs with lottery dynamics. "YOU COULD OPEN A JACE, THE MIND SCULPTOR" yeah i also might pull a ******* Armageddon okay and the truth is, i will pull the Armageddon 50 times before i pull the jace and we all know it.
It just feels like they threw a tribal set at us because innistrad was a mostly tribal set and was beloved so it must work but the problem is is that instead of printing new cards i'm more excited for than just buying old cards they just reprint the old ones. I look through my collection and i see cards from Innistrad, and Theros, and even tarkir and i can't help but think, "oh i wish wizards would print good cards again" but theres no new abilities that make me want to build decks because abilities just aren't as good. I don't want to build an Enrage Deck or an Energy Deck, something jsut doesn't feel exciting about them like abilities like prowess would, or heoic would, or even delirium would. Thus i look forward more to these supplemental nothings than i look forward to actual sets. Supplemental Sets shuld be cool, and they should be exciting, but they shouldn't be more exciting then the main product. I don't know what i'm saying i suppose.
Mostly i guess what i mean is that i'm offended by this not because it's a bad thing but because it's a lazy money grab compared to actual good work they've done in the past. It just feels like they're spitting in my face with this cause they know that i will eventually spend money on these products because i do want them and i need to keep adding to the collection to stay relevant. But it almost feels begrudging at this point....why can't wizards just make new good cards and stop just showing us that you used to?
My problem with the master series in general is they don't feel special. MM1 was 6 tp 7 MSRP (of course real price was way higher than that), but it was kinda ok because it was really a special product during a special time.
After MM2 with the $10 MSRP this line of product started to rub me the wrong way. They should release master sets every two years at most. Make it like MM1 (and MM3 level). That way I would be ok with the $10 pricetag. Releasing it annually and the way they design the card choice, they should just treat it like Conspiracy. Now with the two master sets/year that's pushing it too far. Hopefully with their new policy with master sets, they will hold off on this cash grab.
Eternal Masters felt a bit special as it was the first master set with cards from older era of MTG, but rationally speaking it was just a cash grab just like MM2 onward were.
We do need reprints, but they should be proper in each specialty products like Conspiracy and Commander, and also be in normal sets. Preconstructed sets should be like Challenge decks as well. Master sets should be reserved for really special occasions. Also, they should not have cards that aren't proper for them. In this master 25, we shouldn't have commander set cards or even Imperial Recruiter. It would be a more proper reprint in Conspiracy-like sets. Having Commander set rares and mythics but no rare from original Ravnica, one of the most well received sets in MTG history, is insulting. Yeah people want foil versions of certain commander only cards. They could just print foil versions of these cards in Anthology sets (so we have more incentive to rebuy it).
Iconic Masters card selection was atrocious and not proper for what the set aimed for. Master 25 is almost the same level of bad design. It's just a little bit better than IMA. If WotC had some decency as a corporation, they would just cancel M25. After all the backlash against IMA should have been loud enough and the issues customers had with it clear as the sun. I know they print and design in advance, but if they were proper with their consumer base, they would cancel it and go back to the blackboard and do it justice. They are pulling an EA stunt with us. At least EA was shamed enough to temporarily cancel their micro transaction scheme. Master 25 is an embarrassment and Dominaria may not be enough to hide it like Unstable did with IMA.
If WotC had some decency as a corporation, they would just cancel M25.
I think this set is trash and am one of its biggest detractors but you can't "cancel" a set that has been printed and distributed already. If there hasn't been a second printing they could stop that but no corporation is going to produce and ship a product then pull it off the shelves at a massive loss.
What we need is for them to hear us and make it much better the next go around.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
If WotC had some decency as a corporation, they would just cancel M25.
I think this set is trash and am one of its biggest detractors but you can't "cancel" a set that has been printed and distributed already. If there hasn't been a second printing they could stop that but no corporation is going to produce and ship a product then pull it off the shelves at a massive loss.
What we need is for them to hear us and make it much better the next go around.
The only time they actually cancelled something was with one of the unsets. I believe it was death by funeral pyre.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I guess I'll get over it in a few days. Will order some singles and buy one or 2 packs. I still think they should focus on modern masters products, I really liked mm17.
I guess I'll get over it in a few days. Will order some singles and buy one or 2 packs. I still think they should focus on modern masters products, I really liked mm17.
If you want wotc to release more products like MM17 you shouldn't buy any singles that appear in masters 25 or even trade for them. Any kind of traffic just signals wotc that people liked masters 25 and they will print more *****.
I concur. Now that I think about it, I hope none of you buy anything from this release. That way, I can wait 2 or 3 months for the prices to plummet then buy the individual cards I want at a decent discount.
This is making me wonder about core set 2019 and battle bond. Maybe they had to spread some things out?
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1) To me this set isn't really iconic, it has some good cards, some flavorsome and, at the time impact cards but feels like Wizards was catering to the secondary market far to much.
2) For incoming players who may have been interested in joining the Modern there's a massive barrier to entry. Cost.
Print runs like this should not only include cards that are truly iconic but should also enable incoming players to experience all formats of magic without worrying about needing to sell a kidney to get a single playset of a card that is considered a staple.
I'm not sure if the designers of Masters runs are protecting their own personal collection values or are really that out of touch with the community.
N.B: Magic should enable all players to enjoy all aspects of the game without them having to worry massively about cost of cards nor feel like that can't play one type of format. Formats where currently the person with most invested money usually wins.
Until this secondary market protection mentality is within reason, fixed then there are going to be more and more people who would enjoy the game blocked from playing the format they want and more and more proxys going around.
They can't drop the barrier to modern in paper using masters sets the way they have been because most of the timed the end result is a temporary sale on a major pillar. The exception to the rule would be cards printed at rare in masters sets and budget brews.
Basically, the lowest walls to climb are mono colored decks and those that avoid the blue red color combination.
Esper isn't too bad since 8/9 fetches are the kahns ones.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
A set that isnt ment to be drafted at all, it just contains special Promo lands and Rare/Mythic lands, lots of them.
Could even put master piece lands in them, as its a true BOOSTER product, to provide product.
Such a set of lands-only would sell like hot cakes and the existence of such a set would put a lot of needed lands into the market.
As its now, they just print WAY too less lands , and only 1 cycle or even just half a cycle of allied/enemy colored lands in a set, which is just laughable and just a drop of water on the hot stone.
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LANDS-ONLY Booster Sets, thats what we need to fill that gap.
Based on current prices of mythic and normal rares (which always drop), each pack should average about $8.60 in value, however, this is artificially high due to Jace and Imperial Recruiter. Using the median, it comes out to more like $3.95 per pack, with a range of $113 to $0.50. As a store is going to charge in the neighborhood of $35 per draft, that returns a value of $12 using median values (discounting prizes), so $0.34 on the dollar.
Comparing to Rivals, Rivals has an average of $1.47 with a median of $0.89, so a $15 draft provides about $3 in value or $0.18 on the dollar in card value. In general, you get worse value, but also spend less overall. If you get a valueless rare, Rivals, you wasted $15, while in M25 if you get a valueless rare, you wasted $34.
If want to play the lottery or like playing the cards in the set, it probably is ok to play, but don't expect to make money.
This is making me wonder about core set 2019 and battle bond. Maybe they had to spread some things out?
Fat chance of that with Battlebond. We might get lucky with the new core set but I wouldn't take it to the bank.
C'mon, everyone knows that WotC pushes draft, hard. It's almost embarrassing. Like Taco Bell doing nothing but Fresco Style advertising.
What little I've heard about Battlebond smacks of draft and I expect very few viable non-Mythic reprints from it. And given their propensity towards draft, I would be surprised (and pleased) if the new core isn't meant as a draft.
I don't care what draft fans say. This set is one of the best examples showing that draft sets are detrimental to constructed. I personally don't hate draft, I just don't think every set WotC produces necessarily needs to be draft-centric.
This is making me wonder about core set 2019 and battle bond. Maybe they had to spread some things out?
Fat chance of that with Battlebond. We might get lucky with the new core set but I wouldn't take it to the bank.
C'mon, everyone knows that WotC pushes draft, hard. It's almost embarrassing. Like Taco Bell doing nothing but Fresco Style advertising.
What little I've heard about Battlebond smacks of draft and I expect very few viable non-Mythic reprints from it. And given their propensity towards draft, I would be surprised (and pleased) if the new core isn't meant as a draft.
I don't care what draft fans say. This set is one of the best examples showing that draft sets are detrimental to constructed. I personally don't hate draft, I just don't think every set WotC produces necessarily needs to be draft-centric.
EDIT: FOR SOME REASON SAVANNAHLION'S POST IS BEING BLOCKED FROM VIEW??? (quoted the post above and it's not showing up??)
You are spot-on about draft being a design limitation here. I'm with you that for reprint sets, their design focus should not be on draft but for constructed. I am really happy that this time around the community seems to have focused in on this subject. Drafting is one of the major design limitations for reprint products... Another nasty thorn in player's side is getting too much format overlap in products that target eternal formats. That needs to stop too. No more printing Commander, Legacy and Vintage staples/reprints (or straight up new cards for these formats) in Standard-legal or Modern-legal products. Battlebond is a good start in that direction with its 85 new cards...but alas, it might also be a product heavily designed for draft...and we may well be back in this same situation in a few months.. EDIT: When I say there's too much format overlap in products that target eternal formats, I mean that the eternal formats should not be getting their relevant card printings in the form of pitiful rations in Standard-legal products. Standard has too many design constraints placed upon it not even including the design constraints of draft/limited. I make a case for WoTC to do more to separate crossover card printings into products that specifically target eternal formats as opposed to the pittance of Modern/Legacy/Vintage/Commander cards we see coming from Standard... in this thread: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/781415-the-rule-of-56-originals-in-commander-is-a#c10
It's unfortunate WoTC designs these products so many years out in the sense that it seemingly makes it difficult for them to respond to community feedback in a timely manner. If a product blows up in their face or is a home-run they've gotta wait a whole year or more it seems, to let the backlog of product already in the pipeline to go through before they can insert the needed adjustment(s).
An example was how many people really liked the Partner mechanic in Commander, but because WoTC has two years worth of Commander products already planned out and in the works, there's no hope that this Partner mechanic (I loved it, it seemed like lots of folks did, just using this as an example and for the sake of this thread if you would like to debate about the Partner mechanic, please let's stay on topic here in the thread and just PM me about it) is going to be seen again before the next two sets are out...
We're really hammering on the subject of draft's design limitations but if we hypothetically kept on this subject for the months that would be required for WoTC to hear us, and to take this seriously, it would be a product that's probably not even conceived yet that would be seeing the fruits of our labors here. Just sad.
If WotC had some decency as a corporation, they would just cancel M25.
I think this set is trash and am one of its biggest detractors but you can't "cancel" a set that has been printed and distributed already. If there hasn't been a second printing they could stop that but no corporation is going to produce and ship a product then pull it off the shelves at a massive loss.
What we need is for them to hear us and make it much better the next go around.
I'm well aware that will never happen because the way they streamline their production. It's just my wishful thinking. Their process is done way months in advance, so it's hard to stop it after the spoiler season. However, I believe they had a window to stop the distribution part if they had the awareness and the willingness to do so. If they had the decency after the IMA fiasco, they would take a loss and cancel M25 end of March release as a statement that they are ashamed of this. It's not about just money. Even EA took one in their chin. They knew in advance that IMA didn't make it with the public and M25 isn't much better, still they just went with it and hope that the name alone hypes the product.
I'm not particularly critical of WotC recent past misdeeds. For the most part I believe the community is a bit too whiny (including myself as well) over small stuff compared to bigger things that other hobbies get away with. However, I thing WotC reacts way too slow. Even if they change later (I mean we will only know that after 1 year or so), the community in the future already moved away for this issue, but the bad taste will stay. At least they could clear the bad taste before it happens at a loss. They could win us back. They hear us pretty well overall (like Modern PT case), but it doesn't matter much if they can't react as fast (like the case of bad tested cards, the problem started in BFZ or probably way earlier, but the fix just started around Rivals and probably will be felt after Dominaria).
Lets be fair here. Unbanning Jace was done because they needed to sell the set.
If a card is banned but would not be overpowered in a format, it should be unbanned. Period. So far, Jace has demonstrated himself to not be too powerful in the format. So regardless of whether their reason for it was to sell the set or not, the unban appears to have been the correct call.
Of course, if they had unbanned Jace and not provided a reprint soon afterwards, I expect most of the people complaining that they unbanned him to sell packs would be complaining about the lack of a reprint.
please answer the question of when they SHOULD be unbanning something.
There is this old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". What's next? Wotc notices development of MM19 that the set is yet another train wreck so they decide to unban Skullclamp and print that as a mythic.
This isn't an answer to my question. Also, comparing unbanning Jace to unbanning Skullclamp is silly.
You are spot-on about draft being a design limitation here. I'm with you that for reprint sets, their design focus should not be on draft but for constructed. I am really happy that this time around the community seems to have focused in on this subject.
If the argument here is that design focus on draft is what has made this and Iconic Masters underwhelming, I wholeheartedly disagree. Why? Because people generally agree that the best Masters set for draft was Modern Masters, the original. This was also the one with the most value in it.
I strongly disagree on this claim. Draft is a critical aspect to any reprint set, maybe even more so than a regular set. Because a regular set they have to consider the Standard impact and (at least briefly) impact on larger formats. Reprint sets don't have any such hampers because they're not adding any new cards to anything. Additionally, draft makes buying packs much more "worth it." You're unlikely to actually get your money back via a booster pack but if you draft you at least get some extra fun out of it, which can justify the price you paid.
However, if the argument is that focus on making a good draft/sealed environment is the reason for Iconic Masters and Masters 25 being seen as underwhelming, I wholeheartedly disagree. From a value standpoint, the first Modern Masters might have been the best of all of the Masters sets. But people thought that its draft environment was fantastic, and it's usually held up as the best draft environment of all of the Masters set. So the original Modern Masters singlehandedly disproves the idea that making a good Draft environment in a reprint set is at odds with having good value rares and mythics.
Drafting is one of the major design limitations for reprint products... Another nasty thorn in player's side is getting too much format overlap in products that target eternal formats. That needs to stop too. No more printing Commander, Legacy and Vintage staples/reprints (or straight up new cards for these formats) in Standard-legal or Modern-legal products.
Er... why?
No, really, why? What's wrong with printing those reprints in Standard or Modern-legal products? Putting those reprints in Standard is actually a great thing because that creates way more product out there than if you put it in a more limited edition set. I'd much rather have the fetchlands in Standard than in a Masters edition; the Khans reprint made the fetchlands way more easy to get than the Masters reprint did. I'm really confused what the problem here is supposed to be. (okay, there were some complaints about the fetchlands in Standard, but that was because WOTC thought it was somehow a good idea to put them in the same Standard format as the battlelands--had the battlelands been put into Standard just 6 months later, no one would have had any issue)
I concur. Now that I think about it, I hope none of you buy anything from this release. That way, I can wait 2 or 3 months for the prices to plummet then buy the individual cards I want at a decent discount.
Really we should all show some discipline along these lines. Refrain from buying so the prices come down then buy 3 to 6 months out in moderation as to not drive prices too high. That's asking a lot to say the least.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
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Firstly- my background, so that you can see any bias. You are welcome to skip.
I have played a long time, I do drafts where the rares are prizes- redraft and by and large I am strong enough at limited to make whatever skills I had pay. Under the K ranking system I would fluctuate between top 100 uk and just outside the top 10 in limited, without ever doing more than a few rounds of a big event outside nationals. Most of my "best" picks in draft are not the hot cards at the time but the second picks where I took a long term view. I started taking an interest in finance around a decade ago. My ebay sales cleared 100+ last month, in the last two I made £1200 plus private sales of 500, my average per month is closer to £100-200, private sales can vary. Rarely someone comes to me with a collection or high end cards to shift on privately, but mainly it is my cards I sell on to obtain higher value ones. My collection is, well, let us just say I store my cards in a safe, I own a lot of legacy decks in that safe, in full, and a similar number of modern decks, and it has mainly been paid for by dropping out of standard and selling off in 2007 or so. I don't touch vintage, I speculate a little here and there, I bought a lot of old boxes when they were sub 100 Euros from European sources, I take advantage of the disparity between Europe and the US, and the disparity between what cards sell for on Ebay and their trade value in dollars. I read mtg finance reddit and Mtgstocks daily, I never post on finance ever- the major patterns in finance are pretty obvious, and when I do get some inkling or a whisper I don't tell anyone because that is not how it works, and, of course, I always sell into the hype and get out early, I am risk averse. The only secrets I can tell you is that anyone looking at finance needs to not play every format because that is how you get stung, the formats you are not playing in are the ones that makes you cash, and that as ever everyone needs to stay ahead of the curve but by definition they can't, so you have to jump first.
On this set I have no special wisdom but I think this will be the last set of its kind. Their formula for all masters sets has been consistent since the second, and it takes no account of price after release, only initial price pre reprint. The formula simply does not work outside of Modern, and barely works within it. We all know a cards value is a function of supply and demand, and that cards can maintain a high price as a function of scarcity rather than widespread demand. Goyf and its ilk drop a small amount and rapidly rebound, because now you need another 3 Goyfs. Imperial Recruiter won't work like that- it has a direct replacement for most decks and inconveniently for WOTC the Top ban killed Imperial Painter, the deck now best as a fring mono U deck. As in the disparity between Chronicles City of B and it's AN counterpart, the original will hold a lot of value, but the reprint won't- 40 dollars or so, maybe 50 if few boxes get openened. For IR read Mana Drain and you are basically there.
Similarly let us assume we all know that the value of the rares and uncommons is a huge driver of the "feel bad/feel" good in a pack. Opening a Bident of Thassa does not feel as bad when it comes with a Brainstorm and foil Swords. This set will feel bad way too often whichever way you run the maths. There is some uncommon value, and common value, but the rare/myhtic value is awfully centered on fewer cards than usual. Even those opening, say for example, a Rishadan Port will feel "great this card is worth X" but then have to try and find a buyer who does not own them already for D N T, brown Stax or Lands. That is a tall order in terms of Lands- if you own a Tabernacle then Ports were unlikely to be an issue, and your Lands deck may run without them. If you are lucky enough to find a Brown Stax player they will probably own all the cards too. If you don't own a Tabernacle then Lands probably should not be your deck choice. Port may be the bottleneck to D N T, and you will find out if it truly is if you check the price of the other cards in the deck, assuming the demand is real and not speculator driven. Chalice and Bridge are cards that are notable for being used in multiples, they will hold a lot of their value. The optimum number of Chalice is 4 in Legacy, but that will lead to a lot of frustrated players. In fact that is this set over - an awful lot of packs will annoy or upset, meaning repeat buyers will be few and far between.
In short the set will bust by virtue of rotting on shelves, low player confidence and a myriad of other factors including the disenfranchisement of the player base by a host of feel-bad decisions over the past 6-12 months. Wizards as ever will get sales to LGS, but they will have cut back on orders after Iconic, and they will not fly off the shelves nor will LGS be clamouring for a second printing. If you assume they saw what happened to Iconic, realised the distribution of A25 is similar, it is likely that they unbanned JTMS to boost sales of a set made with a similar calculation- a few high end mythics, little value in the rare slot, and a large number of cards who maintained a high price due to scarcity rather than organic demand. In short the set is only really worth it as a draft experience, as is often the case, but this is more true than ever. Their careful management of spoiler season felt like Punch and Judy show where everyone can see the hand and the curtain has fallen down, as soon as we got into the third day it was obvious where it was heading.
I know my local LGS ordered less of this set than Iconic. Unless there is some sweet "treasure" esque suprise, the set will basically be Iconic II, but with the added bonus that people's expectations are lower, meaning a few more may buy it and sales might kick in earlier. As Atari found in 1985, when a product is talked of as being dead (8bit e.g. 800XL), and retailers cut prices, it can act as a short term shot into the arm. Pauper too may cause a shot in the arm as there are a few goodies for Pauper players, but it is not enough. If the worst happens with Iconic, and prices get slashed early then all bets are off. If it does not, then I would wager the next masters set has an RRP of about 8$, and may even have some kind of masterpiece/alternate art theme running through them, even affatecting uncommons/commons- rarer art foil Brainstorms, for example, even old style foil ones. The alternative is a masters set with fetches in, which is a sure way to make a set sell, albeit one that cannot be continued indefinitely.
The draft looks okay with a few archetypes to pick from. It looks like UW blink is a thing, reanimation of big over costed creatures via Zombify and similar cards, tokens, and not sure about the rest. There's definitely an aggressive red strategy in there with the Kindle, Hordling Outburst, Lightning Bolt, and frenzied goblin.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Please, everyone. Before you claim "why unban anything, it's diverse" please answer the question of when they SHOULD be unbanning something.
This, at least, is a valid argument.
Even though so far, there is no real evidence that Jace is so powerful he warrants rebanning, and a decent amount of evidence against?
Lets be fair here. Unbanning Jace was done because they needed to sell the set.
There is this old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". What's next? Wotc notices development of MM19 that the set is yet another train wreck so they decide to unban Skullclamp and print that as a mythic.
It just feels like they threw a tribal set at us because innistrad was a mostly tribal set and was beloved so it must work but the problem is is that instead of printing new cards i'm more excited for than just buying old cards they just reprint the old ones. I look through my collection and i see cards from Innistrad, and Theros, and even tarkir and i can't help but think, "oh i wish wizards would print good cards again" but theres no new abilities that make me want to build decks because abilities just aren't as good. I don't want to build an Enrage Deck or an Energy Deck, something jsut doesn't feel exciting about them like abilities like prowess would, or heoic would, or even delirium would. Thus i look forward more to these supplemental nothings than i look forward to actual sets. Supplemental Sets shuld be cool, and they should be exciting, but they shouldn't be more exciting then the main product. I don't know what i'm saying i suppose.
Mostly i guess what i mean is that i'm offended by this not because it's a bad thing but because it's a lazy money grab compared to actual good work they've done in the past. It just feels like they're spitting in my face with this cause they know that i will eventually spend money on these products because i do want them and i need to keep adding to the collection to stay relevant. But it almost feels begrudging at this point....why can't wizards just make new good cards and stop just showing us that you used to?
After MM2 with the $10 MSRP this line of product started to rub me the wrong way. They should release master sets every two years at most. Make it like MM1 (and MM3 level). That way I would be ok with the $10 pricetag. Releasing it annually and the way they design the card choice, they should just treat it like Conspiracy. Now with the two master sets/year that's pushing it too far. Hopefully with their new policy with master sets, they will hold off on this cash grab.
Eternal Masters felt a bit special as it was the first master set with cards from older era of MTG, but rationally speaking it was just a cash grab just like MM2 onward were.
We do need reprints, but they should be proper in each specialty products like Conspiracy and Commander, and also be in normal sets. Preconstructed sets should be like Challenge decks as well. Master sets should be reserved for really special occasions. Also, they should not have cards that aren't proper for them. In this master 25, we shouldn't have commander set cards or even Imperial Recruiter. It would be a more proper reprint in Conspiracy-like sets. Having Commander set rares and mythics but no rare from original Ravnica, one of the most well received sets in MTG history, is insulting. Yeah people want foil versions of certain commander only cards. They could just print foil versions of these cards in Anthology sets (so we have more incentive to rebuy it).
Iconic Masters card selection was atrocious and not proper for what the set aimed for. Master 25 is almost the same level of bad design. It's just a little bit better than IMA. If WotC had some decency as a corporation, they would just cancel M25. After all the backlash against IMA should have been loud enough and the issues customers had with it clear as the sun. I know they print and design in advance, but if they were proper with their consumer base, they would cancel it and go back to the blackboard and do it justice. They are pulling an EA stunt with us. At least EA was shamed enough to temporarily cancel their micro transaction scheme. Master 25 is an embarrassment and Dominaria may not be enough to hide it like Unstable did with IMA.
not that we didnt know that opening packs is a bad way to get cards
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I think this set is trash and am one of its biggest detractors but you can't "cancel" a set that has been printed and distributed already. If there hasn't been a second printing they could stop that but no corporation is going to produce and ship a product then pull it off the shelves at a massive loss.
What we need is for them to hear us and make it much better the next go around.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
The only time they actually cancelled something was with one of the unsets. I believe it was death by funeral pyre.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If you want wotc to release more products like MM17 you shouldn't buy any singles that appear in masters 25 or even trade for them. Any kind of traffic just signals wotc that people liked masters 25 and they will print more *****.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1) To me this set isn't really iconic, it has some good cards, some flavorsome and, at the time impact cards but feels like Wizards was catering to the secondary market far to much.
2) For incoming players who may have been interested in joining the Modern there's a massive barrier to entry. Cost.
Print runs like this should not only include cards that are truly iconic but should also enable incoming players to experience all formats of magic without worrying about needing to sell a kidney to get a single playset of a card that is considered a staple.
I'm not sure if the designers of Masters runs are protecting their own personal collection values or are really that out of touch with the community.
N.B: Magic should enable all players to enjoy all aspects of the game without them having to worry massively about cost of cards nor feel like that can't play one type of format. Formats where currently the person with most invested money usually wins.
Until this secondary market protection mentality is within reason, fixed then there are going to be more and more people who would enjoy the game blocked from playing the format they want and more and more proxys going around.
Basically, the lowest walls to climb are mono colored decks and those that avoid the blue red color combination.
Esper isn't too bad since 8/9 fetches are the kahns ones.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
A set that isnt ment to be drafted at all, it just contains special Promo lands and Rare/Mythic lands, lots of them.
Could even put master piece lands in them, as its a true BOOSTER product, to provide product.
Such a set of lands-only would sell like hot cakes and the existence of such a set would put a lot of needed lands into the market.
As its now, they just print WAY too less lands , and only 1 cycle or even just half a cycle of allied/enemy colored lands in a set, which is just laughable and just a drop of water on the hot stone.
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LANDS-ONLY Booster Sets, thats what we need to fill that gap.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Comparing to Rivals, Rivals has an average of $1.47 with a median of $0.89, so a $15 draft provides about $3 in value or $0.18 on the dollar in card value. In general, you get worse value, but also spend less overall. If you get a valueless rare, Rivals, you wasted $15, while in M25 if you get a valueless rare, you wasted $34.
If want to play the lottery or like playing the cards in the set, it probably is ok to play, but don't expect to make money.
Fat chance of that with Battlebond. We might get lucky with the new core set but I wouldn't take it to the bank.
C'mon, everyone knows that WotC pushes draft, hard. It's almost embarrassing. Like Taco Bell doing nothing but Fresco Style advertising.
What little I've heard about Battlebond smacks of draft and I expect very few viable non-Mythic reprints from it. And given their propensity towards draft, I would be surprised (and pleased) if the new core isn't meant as a draft.
I don't care what draft fans say. This set is one of the best examples showing that draft sets are detrimental to constructed. I personally don't hate draft, I just don't think every set WotC produces necessarily needs to be draft-centric.
EDIT: FOR SOME REASON SAVANNAHLION'S POST IS BEING BLOCKED FROM VIEW??? (quoted the post above and it's not showing up??)
You are spot-on about draft being a design limitation here. I'm with you that for reprint sets, their design focus should not be on draft but for constructed. I am really happy that this time around the community seems to have focused in on this subject. Drafting is one of the major design limitations for reprint products... Another nasty thorn in player's side is getting too much format overlap in products that target eternal formats. That needs to stop too. No more printing Commander, Legacy and Vintage staples/reprints (or straight up new cards for these formats) in Standard-legal or Modern-legal products. Battlebond is a good start in that direction with its 85 new cards...but alas, it might also be a product heavily designed for draft...and we may well be back in this same situation in a few months.. EDIT: When I say there's too much format overlap in products that target eternal formats, I mean that the eternal formats should not be getting their relevant card printings in the form of pitiful rations in Standard-legal products. Standard has too many design constraints placed upon it not even including the design constraints of draft/limited. I make a case for WoTC to do more to separate crossover card printings into products that specifically target eternal formats as opposed to the pittance of Modern/Legacy/Vintage/Commander cards we see coming from Standard... in this thread: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/781415-the-rule-of-56-originals-in-commander-is-a#c10
It's unfortunate WoTC designs these products so many years out in the sense that it seemingly makes it difficult for them to respond to community feedback in a timely manner. If a product blows up in their face or is a home-run they've gotta wait a whole year or more it seems, to let the backlog of product already in the pipeline to go through before they can insert the needed adjustment(s).
An example was how many people really liked the Partner mechanic in Commander, but because WoTC has two years worth of Commander products already planned out and in the works, there's no hope that this Partner mechanic (I loved it, it seemed like lots of folks did, just using this as an example and for the sake of this thread if you would like to debate about the Partner mechanic, please let's stay on topic here in the thread and just PM me about it) is going to be seen again before the next two sets are out...
We're really hammering on the subject of draft's design limitations but if we hypothetically kept on this subject for the months that would be required for WoTC to hear us, and to take this seriously, it would be a product that's probably not even conceived yet that would be seeing the fruits of our labors here. Just sad.
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http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
I'm well aware that will never happen because the way they streamline their production. It's just my wishful thinking. Their process is done way months in advance, so it's hard to stop it after the spoiler season. However, I believe they had a window to stop the distribution part if they had the awareness and the willingness to do so. If they had the decency after the IMA fiasco, they would take a loss and cancel M25 end of March release as a statement that they are ashamed of this. It's not about just money. Even EA took one in their chin. They knew in advance that IMA didn't make it with the public and M25 isn't much better, still they just went with it and hope that the name alone hypes the product.
I'm not particularly critical of WotC recent past misdeeds. For the most part I believe the community is a bit too whiny (including myself as well) over small stuff compared to bigger things that other hobbies get away with. However, I thing WotC reacts way too slow. Even if they change later (I mean we will only know that after 1 year or so), the community in the future already moved away for this issue, but the bad taste will stay. At least they could clear the bad taste before it happens at a loss. They could win us back. They hear us pretty well overall (like Modern PT case), but it doesn't matter much if they can't react as fast (like the case of bad tested cards, the problem started in BFZ or probably way earlier, but the fix just started around Rivals and probably will be felt after Dominaria).
Of course, if they had unbanned Jace and not provided a reprint soon afterwards, I expect most of the people complaining that they unbanned him to sell packs would be complaining about the lack of a reprint.
This isn't an answer to my question. Also, comparing unbanning Jace to unbanning Skullclamp is silly.
I strongly disagree on this claim. Draft is a critical aspect to any reprint set, maybe even more so than a regular set. Because a regular set they have to consider the Standard impact and (at least briefly) impact on larger formats. Reprint sets don't have any such hampers because they're not adding any new cards to anything. Additionally, draft makes buying packs much more "worth it." You're unlikely to actually get your money back via a booster pack but if you draft you at least get some extra fun out of it, which can justify the price you paid.
However, if the argument is that focus on making a good draft/sealed environment is the reason for Iconic Masters and Masters 25 being seen as underwhelming, I wholeheartedly disagree. From a value standpoint, the first Modern Masters might have been the best of all of the Masters sets. But people thought that its draft environment was fantastic, and it's usually held up as the best draft environment of all of the Masters set. So the original Modern Masters singlehandedly disproves the idea that making a good Draft environment in a reprint set is at odds with having good value rares and mythics.
Er... why?
No, really, why? What's wrong with printing those reprints in Standard or Modern-legal products? Putting those reprints in Standard is actually a great thing because that creates way more product out there than if you put it in a more limited edition set. I'd much rather have the fetchlands in Standard than in a Masters edition; the Khans reprint made the fetchlands way more easy to get than the Masters reprint did. I'm really confused what the problem here is supposed to be. (okay, there were some complaints about the fetchlands in Standard, but that was because WOTC thought it was somehow a good idea to put them in the same Standard format as the battlelands--had the battlelands been put into Standard just 6 months later, no one would have had any issue)
Really we should all show some discipline along these lines. Refrain from buying so the prices come down then buy 3 to 6 months out in moderation as to not drive prices too high. That's asking a lot to say the least.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."