Back in 2010, it was fairly easy to collect magic cards. We had regular cards, foil cards, and the occasional promo such a prerelease card or a FNM card.
Today, I feel completely overwhelmed with the amount of different printings and promo's of cards. The collector boosters were the final nail in the coffer for me to consider "collecting" anything in the current magic franchise. My problem is not that I'm unable to collect every single magic card. My problem also doesn't lie with the consequence that some cards are (very) expensive - the general consencus seems to be that the price of "normal" cards found in booster is significantly lower due to all the exclusive stuff. My problem lies with the dilution of tradeability of collectible cards. Imagine you're the proud owner of 4 Thassa, Deep-Dwelling. When trying to trade them away you suddenly have to take into account that some players only want the showcase version, or that others definitely don't want that ugly planeswalker symbol of the promo packs. Oh, and they all have different prices of course.
I would suggest to remove some of the clutter by introducing these changes:
Prerelease promo cards are no more. Instead, a regular foil rare or mythic is given in the prerelease packs
The promo pack cards (the one with the planeswalker symbol on them) are no more. Instead, a showcase or extended art version of that card is given in the promo packs
Special card, such as buy-a-box promo's, showcase cards and extended art cards are either always foil, or never foil. No need to have a bling version of something that is already bling.
Mystery Booster sets contain the normal version of the card and don't have the planeswalker symbol in the bottom-left corner. (Based on what I read there was no printing issue that required this symbol, it was just a way to differentiate the cards - which is exactly what I'm discussing in this thread).
This implies that special promos such as the ugin's fate promos, the Japanese anime planeswalker the stain-glass planeswalker cards or more recently the godzilla card can remain as is, as a one time gimmick.
The end result would satisfy my collector's itch and still cater to Wizards's desire to be able to sell exclusive items
Normal cards (trivial to get)
Showcase cards (cannot be foil ,easy to get)
Foil cards (difficult to get)
Extended art cards (cannot be foil, very difficult expensive to get)
The problem with always foil or never foil cards is that lots of people prefer one way over the other and making a large number of such cards would anger a large number of people. Other than that you're not proposing significant changes some of which were done before.
As for the general feel of collectability. I stopped being able to care about collecting cards when the prerelease cards stopped being unique and started being any rare in the set stamped with the date. The first few times I was excited to see the cards with the date but after a few releases and actually wanting to collect a specific card with the date I was simply unable to continue caring about the special versions of cards.
The problem of "always a foil" or "never a foil" is that WotC will (not may, it's will) fall into the Nexus of Fate trap again too easily. Ironically, this is the inverse of the OG RL cards problem bit that's a different topic altogether.
I'm personally not a fan of alternate versions of cards. However, I do like how they're giving people a chance to provide some kind of "uniqueness" to their decks in a sense that if someone does not want to have their deck in regular frames there are plenty of alternate frames for them to choose from
I would love it if these would simply be in the NORMAL draft boosters.
The fact they sell it in premium and expensive packs is whats totally destroying the value of "normal" cards.
Alternate art is always welcome, as some people will like it and you can trade for the art you like, everyone can be happy.
However, if some art is just way more expensive, that entire "build the deck you like with the art you like" idea goes out of the window right away.
Every time a card gets a reprint i am in massive favor to give it new art, so the "original" art has a value on its own, which increases the collectable aspect.
If a reprint has the same art, it undermines the original card and thats just flat out bad, as nobody needs more copies of the same card with the same art, thats just terrible and hurts the trading aspect immensely (as established players could very well trade for new artwork on a card they already have, but if the same stuff is reprinted with no variation, you lost them and trading with new players becomes a shore, as they have nothing of value you would want).
----
Master-Pieces i welcomed a lot.
The entire collectors packs alternate art stuff and especially the "Drops" art absolute cancer for the game on long term, as it further drives players away from sealed product / drafts and pre-release events, into a "buy on demand" and directly from WotC , which is borderline bad for any paper magic.
I'm all for WotC creating unique, hard-to-find versions of cards, so long as they ALSO create normal versions of those exact same cards that can be pulled from normal, non-Collector boosters. If they want to make a full-art, alternate-art, super-exclusive card, sure, but make sure it's a card that's currently being printed as a normal, nonfoil, pack card.
The special edition, limited print cards give collectors something to chase. SDCC Planeswalkers, that are special versions of 'walkers already in print? Absolutely, go for it. Not my thing personally, but still interesting to have in the community. Nexus of Fate that can ONLY be gotten by preordering, or the secondary market, and can never be opened in a pack? Terrible idea.
Masterpieces were a great idea. I don't think I heard an argument against masterpieces as a whole that didn't boil down to "I don't want the game to be so affordable." The implementation wasn't great for the last set, but the IDEA, that you had super-special versions, in packs, that were super-rare? Great! it sold packs, and also helped keep the price of normal, playable versions of those same cards down. Everybody won, so of course WotC cut them.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
There are definitely too many options now, which makes it a confusing mess. I don't mind special versions depressing the price of regular versions, though, as I want to play the card and will happily accept a cheaper version that functions exactly the same.
I do hate all the alternate arts and disagree with everyone who said alternate arts are welcome. You've heard of power creep and complexity creep, but what about visual complexity creep? It may not be an issue in Standard, where you only have to worry about the last two years and can forget everything that has rotated, but in Commander, you want to look across the table and recognize what cards are on the battlefield. Everytime they print new art on an old card, they make it harder to recognize the cards and remember what they all do.
I do hate all the alternate arts and disagree with everyone who said alternate arts are welcome. You've heard of power creep and complexity creep, but what about visual complexity creep? It may not be an issue in Standard, where you only have to worry about the last two years and can forget everything that has rotated, but in Commander, you want to look across the table and recognize what cards are on the battlefield. Everytime they print new art on an old card, they make it harder to recognize the cards and remember what they all do.
The problem will never go away, as you have to get used to artwork before you can recognize it.
If there is some art you never seen before, it looks new.
But thats the entire point of having the different artworks.
I also recognize a lot of cards by art and then just know what they do, and if a card has 10 different artworks it becomes a problem of visual clutter, especially if its a design that is hard to read anyway (like the Amonkhet Master pieces, which are a giant mess as they look even very similar if you have different blue ones, Force of Will iconic old art everyone will remember, the new ones not so much and especially the Amonkhet Masterpiece is a giant visual trap to miss the card).
----
People use to alter cards in commander too, so the visual problem already exists (unless the alter just extends the borders or such stuff).
If the artwork would at least remotely look similar , so a card can be identified by it, that wouldnt be as much of a problem, but with the Godzilla cards we get artwork that is nowhere near anything the card would be and displays something entirely different, it even goes further and gives the card a different name too, which is a massive SIN in my book as having multiples of the SAME card on the field gets stupendously annoying.
----
So lets say we have a Lightning Bolt in many different art-variations , as long as they all look like actual Lightning Bolts thats not a issue.
If you suddenly display a Pink Pony Tail in the artwork for Lightning Bolt, well, thats just a visual trap.
Diversity is always cool, so I think alternative art pieces, masterpeces or collector booster versions are awesome as long as the cards are also avaiable as normal cards. I think Nexus of Fate sufficiently illustrated why a standard legal promo is a bad thing if it is not avaiable through boosters (although that card was also a toxic design in a vacuum), they did much better with BaB promos like Kenrith, the Returned King, which also saw standard play and never got rediculously expensive.
I do hate all the alternate arts and disagree with everyone who said alternate arts are welcome. You've heard of power creep and complexity creep, but what about visual complexity creep? It may not be an issue in Standard, where you only have to worry about the last two years and can forget everything that has rotated, but in Commander, you want to look across the table and recognize what cards are on the battlefield. Everytime they print new art on an old card, they make it harder to recognize the cards and remember what they all do.
I see your point, but I think its not relevant in the larger picture. New sets will continue to release, bringing both new cards and new art on reprintt, both of which are desirable. Some may prefer old art, but few would disagree that a card with art from 10 years ago would stick out like a sore thumb in a set released nowadays. The enjoyment new and unique art brings to some far outweighs the annoyance it may bring to others imo.
Sure, for new players the alternative versions are more cards to learn, but if a player has to read cards anyways, checking what a promo does hardly matters. And if an enfranchised player has to read a card they don't recognise every once in a while it won't kill them.
I've gotten back into the game after a couple year hiatus and missed the Eldrane transition. My budget is tight these days and "regular" versions of cards being way at the bottom of the price heap (under foil "regular" < extended art < foil extended art < alt art < foil alt art) has been a welcome development.
Years back, I collected the Force of Will tcg, which had a similar premium card structure. I remember it did a good job of tamping down prices for folks that just wanted to play casually, whereas all the tournament folks seemed obsessed with acquiring the extreme bling in addition to best decks.
Good cards were still good cards though, and format staples will always carry a hefty price. The premium card distribution FoW and now MtG is using just seems to stretch the price range distribution between normal, foil, and ultra chase versions; 5c - 50c for chaff vs bling chaff to $8 vs $100 for plain staple vs ultra chase-version staple.
I like having multiple different artworks to choose from, because oftentimes I feel very strongly that one of them is the best; I think this is at it's highest effect in Fallen Empires, Homelands, and for cards with many reprints like Urza lands and basics. Everyone has a favorite Hymn to Tourach, and that promotes trading. Even though everyone secretly knows that "Evil old man" hymns are superior, are good at making people discard the lands they needed. Doggo hymns nearly always miss. Anyways, I like it when they print promo cards today with wildly different art, and wish they did this to illustrate story points which most of us miss because we can't read.
Alternately named cards, the godzilla cards in particular, I don't think they should be on super competitive cards. I like it as a one-time thing, but there are a lot of cards like Pithing Needle where it's hard enough to remember the names of every card in Magic let alone the cards that have two different names but one real name. I'm sure that tournaments will have leeway with this stuff, or perhaps I'm forseeing stuff that won't even happen, but I can't help but imagine some regular tournament player dunking on some greenhorn for naming "Gigan, Cyberclaw Terror" with his Meddling Mage only to have a stupid situation arise when the other guy goes and casts his Gyruda, Doom of Depths saying "You didn't name the true name of this card!" Sometimes the judge will tell the guy he's a dilhole, and sometimes the judge will side with the dilhole. Maybe. Just my brain making up scenarios.
Alternately named cards, the godzilla cards in particular, I don't think they should be on super competitive cards. I like it as a one-time thing, but there are a lot of cards like Pithing Needle where it's hard enough to remember the names of every card in Magic let alone the cards that have two different names but one real name. I'm sure that tournaments will have leeway with this stuff, or perhaps I'm forseeing stuff that won't even happen, but I can't help but imagine some regular tournament player dunking on some greenhorn for naming "Gigan, Cyberclaw Terror" with his Meddling Mage only to have a stupid situation arise when the other guy goes and casts his Gyruda, Doom of Depths saying "You didn't name the true name of this card!" Sometimes the judge will tell the guy he's a dilhole, and sometimes the judge will side with the dilhole. Maybe. Just my brain making up scenarios.
The judge should NEVER side with the dillhole in this situation. The tournament rules for Meddling Mage, Pithing Needle, etc. only require that you uniquely identify the card. You could say "That 8 mana colorless Planeswalker", and that would be enough for your needle to turn off Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. The rules also follow format legality, so naming Thassa with a card in standard would automatically assume Thassa, Deep-Dwelling.
OT: I'm fine with it, though I hope that the Godzilla cards are an exception rather than the norm. I mean, I still want them, but having the alternate name be in larger print than the card's actual name is kind of stupid.
For me its just the trying to figure out where to find certain things. Buy-a-box, collector boosters/themed booster only, top boxers and such gets a little confusing and much.
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For me its just the trying to figure out where to find certain things. Buy-a-box, collector boosters/themed booster only, top boxers and such gets a little confusing and much.
If they would simply give every product its own "set symbol" that would be way easier (even if its an added "star" to the set symbol or whatever else).
Having all the cards in the same set, and cards not in regular booster packs is essentially FRAUD against the customer so they might just assume a normal booster box has them.
I love alternate arts... but not too many that its hard to track.
I agree that printing alternate arts for reprints is good, even necessary.
The current collector boxes trend is printing alternate art for its own sake which is fine... bit its eating print equity right from the get go, thats why it depresses prices for the "normal" cards and even its own price 8s depressed, because it is like doing future reprints in the present.And you get to reprint cards that do not need reprints and you earn from those too. Its like prerelease when everything is hyped, but actually only a few cards will be sought after. Everything else crashes. Not terrible i guess. For a deck builder willing to look its actually quite awesome. If you are a net decker, you are in for a world of hurt pricewise, if you are a speculator, your wait time for return just got lengthen.. to god knows when...
I like having multiple different artworks to choose from, because oftentimes I feel very strongly that one of them is the best; I think this is at it's highest effect in Fallen Empires, Homelands, and for cards with many reprints like Urza lands and basics. Everyone has a favorite Hymn to Tourach, and that promotes trading. Even though everyone secretly knows that "Evil old man" hymns are superior, are good at making people discard the lands they needed. Doggo hymns nearly always miss. Anyways, I like it when they print promo cards today with wildly different art, and wish they did this to illustrate story points which most of us miss because we can't read.
I didn't know that trivia about Hymn. Thanks.
Alternately named cards, the godzilla cards in particular, I don't think they should be on super competitive cards. I like it as a one-time thing, but there are a lot of cards like Pithing Needle where it's hard enough to remember the names of every card in Magic let alone the cards that have two different names but one real name. I'm sure that tournaments will have leeway with this stuff, or perhaps I'm forseeing stuff that won't even happen, but I can't help but imagine some regular tournament player dunking on some greenhorn for naming "Gigan, Cyberclaw Terror" with his Meddling Mage only to have a stupid situation arise when the other guy goes and casts his Gyruda, Doom of Depths saying "You didn't name the true name of this card!" Sometimes the judge will tell the guy he's a dilhole, and sometimes the judge will side with the dilhole. Maybe. Just my brain making up scenarios.
it would indeed be cause a bit of confusion.. but with time, I think people would eventually get used to playing these cards in a competitive environment.
I like all the alt versions of the cards. I also like cheap, and all the alt versions keep the vanilla versions cheap. I say they are a win-win for me.
its nice when its a few promos here and there, something difficult to get, a reward for an event, whatever you will. its a lot different when you're bombarded by them. they lose a lot of uniqueness and a lot of the fun when there's tons of them on the market. it also drives the price of everything else way down, meaning that if you didn't get that one alt art you're ***** out of luck. i also find it makes memorizing cards and what they do via art next to impossible. that's fine when its something like eternal witness - a card thats pretty ubiquitous and has been around for a long time - but when its something like mechadeathbull***** godzilla? yeah i have no ******* idea what card that one is supposed to be and i'm not going to remember it on the tabletop either so expect me to ask repeatedly to read the card. it sucks as someone who didn't have a choice in the matter, i can't control you packing alt art cards in your deck and all it does is slow things down. foreign cards at least have the same art, but now you have to memorize like 4 different arts for things. its dumb.
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Today, I feel completely overwhelmed with the amount of different printings and promo's of cards. The collector boosters were the final nail in the coffer for me to consider "collecting" anything in the current magic franchise. My problem is not that I'm unable to collect every single magic card. My problem also doesn't lie with the consequence that some cards are (very) expensive - the general consencus seems to be that the price of "normal" cards found in booster is significantly lower due to all the exclusive stuff. My problem lies with the dilution of tradeability of collectible cards. Imagine you're the proud owner of 4 Thassa, Deep-Dwelling. When trying to trade them away you suddenly have to take into account that some players only want the showcase version, or that others definitely don't want that ugly planeswalker symbol of the promo packs. Oh, and they all have different prices of course.
I would suggest to remove some of the clutter by introducing these changes:
This implies that special promos such as the ugin's fate promos, the Japanese anime planeswalker the stain-glass planeswalker cards or more recently the godzilla card can remain as is, as a one time gimmick.
The end result would satisfy my collector's itch and still cater to Wizards's desire to be able to sell exclusive items
difficultexpensive to get)Thoughts?
As for the general feel of collectability. I stopped being able to care about collecting cards when the prerelease cards stopped being unique and started being any rare in the set stamped with the date. The first few times I was excited to see the cards with the date but after a few releases and actually wanting to collect a specific card with the date I was simply unable to continue caring about the special versions of cards.
The fact they sell it in premium and expensive packs is whats totally destroying the value of "normal" cards.
Alternate art is always welcome, as some people will like it and you can trade for the art you like, everyone can be happy.
However, if some art is just way more expensive, that entire "build the deck you like with the art you like" idea goes out of the window right away.
Every time a card gets a reprint i am in massive favor to give it new art, so the "original" art has a value on its own, which increases the collectable aspect.
If a reprint has the same art, it undermines the original card and thats just flat out bad, as nobody needs more copies of the same card with the same art, thats just terrible and hurts the trading aspect immensely (as established players could very well trade for new artwork on a card they already have, but if the same stuff is reprinted with no variation, you lost them and trading with new players becomes a shore, as they have nothing of value you would want).
----
Master-Pieces i welcomed a lot.
The entire collectors packs alternate art stuff and especially the "Drops" art absolute cancer for the game on long term, as it further drives players away from sealed product / drafts and pre-release events, into a "buy on demand" and directly from WotC , which is borderline bad for any paper magic.
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The special edition, limited print cards give collectors something to chase. SDCC Planeswalkers, that are special versions of 'walkers already in print? Absolutely, go for it. Not my thing personally, but still interesting to have in the community. Nexus of Fate that can ONLY be gotten by preordering, or the secondary market, and can never be opened in a pack? Terrible idea.
Masterpieces were a great idea. I don't think I heard an argument against masterpieces as a whole that didn't boil down to "I don't want the game to be so affordable." The implementation wasn't great for the last set, but the IDEA, that you had super-special versions, in packs, that were super-rare? Great! it sold packs, and also helped keep the price of normal, playable versions of those same cards down. Everybody won, so of course WotC cut them.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
I do hate all the alternate arts and disagree with everyone who said alternate arts are welcome. You've heard of power creep and complexity creep, but what about visual complexity creep? It may not be an issue in Standard, where you only have to worry about the last two years and can forget everything that has rotated, but in Commander, you want to look across the table and recognize what cards are on the battlefield. Everytime they print new art on an old card, they make it harder to recognize the cards and remember what they all do.
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The problem will never go away, as you have to get used to artwork before you can recognize it.
If there is some art you never seen before, it looks new.
But thats the entire point of having the different artworks.
I also recognize a lot of cards by art and then just know what they do, and if a card has 10 different artworks it becomes a problem of visual clutter, especially if its a design that is hard to read anyway (like the Amonkhet Master pieces, which are a giant mess as they look even very similar if you have different blue ones, Force of Will iconic old art everyone will remember, the new ones not so much and especially the Amonkhet Masterpiece is a giant visual trap to miss the card).
----
People use to alter cards in commander too, so the visual problem already exists (unless the alter just extends the borders or such stuff).
If the artwork would at least remotely look similar , so a card can be identified by it, that wouldnt be as much of a problem, but with the Godzilla cards we get artwork that is nowhere near anything the card would be and displays something entirely different, it even goes further and gives the card a different name too, which is a massive SIN in my book as having multiples of the SAME card on the field gets stupendously annoying.
----
So lets say we have a Lightning Bolt in many different art-variations , as long as they all look like actual Lightning Bolts thats not a issue.
If you suddenly display a Pink Pony Tail in the artwork for Lightning Bolt, well, thats just a visual trap.
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I see your point, but I think its not relevant in the larger picture. New sets will continue to release, bringing both new cards and new art on reprintt, both of which are desirable. Some may prefer old art, but few would disagree that a card with art from 10 years ago would stick out like a sore thumb in a set released nowadays. The enjoyment new and unique art brings to some far outweighs the annoyance it may bring to others imo.
Sure, for new players the alternative versions are more cards to learn, but if a player has to read cards anyways, checking what a promo does hardly matters. And if an enfranchised player has to read a card they don't recognise every once in a while it won't kill them.
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Years back, I collected the Force of Will tcg, which had a similar premium card structure. I remember it did a good job of tamping down prices for folks that just wanted to play casually, whereas all the tournament folks seemed obsessed with acquiring the extreme bling in addition to best decks.
Good cards were still good cards though, and format staples will always carry a hefty price. The premium card distribution FoW and now MtG is using just seems to stretch the price range distribution between normal, foil, and ultra chase versions; 5c - 50c for chaff vs bling chaff to $8 vs $100 for plain staple vs ultra chase-version staple.
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Alternately named cards, the godzilla cards in particular, I don't think they should be on super competitive cards. I like it as a one-time thing, but there are a lot of cards like Pithing Needle where it's hard enough to remember the names of every card in Magic let alone the cards that have two different names but one real name. I'm sure that tournaments will have leeway with this stuff, or perhaps I'm forseeing stuff that won't even happen, but I can't help but imagine some regular tournament player dunking on some greenhorn for naming "Gigan, Cyberclaw Terror" with his Meddling Mage only to have a stupid situation arise when the other guy goes and casts his Gyruda, Doom of Depths saying "You didn't name the true name of this card!" Sometimes the judge will tell the guy he's a dilhole, and sometimes the judge will side with the dilhole. Maybe. Just my brain making up scenarios.
The judge should NEVER side with the dillhole in this situation. The tournament rules for Meddling Mage, Pithing Needle, etc. only require that you uniquely identify the card. You could say "That 8 mana colorless Planeswalker", and that would be enough for your needle to turn off Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. The rules also follow format legality, so naming Thassa with a card in standard would automatically assume Thassa, Deep-Dwelling.
OT: I'm fine with it, though I hope that the Godzilla cards are an exception rather than the norm. I mean, I still want them, but having the alternate name be in larger print than the card's actual name is kind of stupid.
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If they would simply give every product its own "set symbol" that would be way easier (even if its an added "star" to the set symbol or whatever else).
Having all the cards in the same set, and cards not in regular booster packs is essentially FRAUD against the customer so they might just assume a normal booster box has them.
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I agree that printing alternate arts for reprints is good, even necessary.
The current collector boxes trend is printing alternate art for its own sake which is fine... bit its eating print equity right from the get go, thats why it depresses prices for the "normal" cards and even its own price 8s depressed, because it is like doing future reprints in the present.And you get to reprint cards that do not need reprints and you earn from those too. Its like prerelease when everything is hyped, but actually only a few cards will be sought after. Everything else crashes. Not terrible i guess. For a deck builder willing to look its actually quite awesome. If you are a net decker, you are in for a world of hurt pricewise, if you are a speculator, your wait time for return just got lengthen.. to god knows when...
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I didn't know that trivia about Hymn. Thanks.
it would indeed be cause a bit of confusion.. but with time, I think people would eventually get used to playing these cards in a competitive environment.
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its nice when its a few promos here and there, something difficult to get, a reward for an event, whatever you will. its a lot different when you're bombarded by them. they lose a lot of uniqueness and a lot of the fun when there's tons of them on the market. it also drives the price of everything else way down, meaning that if you didn't get that one alt art you're ***** out of luck. i also find it makes memorizing cards and what they do via art next to impossible. that's fine when its something like eternal witness - a card thats pretty ubiquitous and has been around for a long time - but when its something like mechadeathbull***** godzilla? yeah i have no ******* idea what card that one is supposed to be and i'm not going to remember it on the tabletop either so expect me to ask repeatedly to read the card. it sucks as someone who didn't have a choice in the matter, i can't control you packing alt art cards in your deck and all it does is slow things down. foreign cards at least have the same art, but now you have to memorize like 4 different arts for things. its dumb.