I would like to talk to players about there feelings towards this. I'm not sure where to go because I know this topic is loaded with emotions.
My feeling is that wizards opened the Pandora box and it looks like they are going to kill the game, especially when they decided to take the high horse and ban 7 cards that they say is racist. Why stop at racist? What not Sexist? Why not violence towards women? Why not remove the Demons, Devils and the Djinns. What about the card Murder? This ban list can suck away 95% of the card pool, leaving only lands.
And since wizards focused on racism... Are they going to ban all cards written in Italian with the "N" word. Sure it's not spelled the same but living in America, I know saying any word relatively close to the "n" word can get you into trouble. Don't believe me, try it.
The best thing they could do to make up for banning these controversial cards is by reprinting them with more appropriate artwork and flavor text so that it doesn't hurt the ability to actually play the cards unless they're on the Reserve List. I can't think of any other cards throughout MTG's history where the card name, artwork, and oracle text are as offensive as Invoke Prejudice. So even If it wasn't a Reserve List card it would be impossible to reprint it in a more appropriate form that's acceptable in today's society unless you dramatically changed it's functionality. I think this is a major wake up call for a lot of MTG artists commissioning artwork for Wizards of the Coast as they need to be real careful.
Toning down specific creatures depicting scantily-clad women via reprints I think would only hurt the original cards' value by causing an unnecessary demand for them on the Secondary Market that most players wouldn't be able to afford. It reminds me of how Wizards of the Coast toned down Douglas Shuler's artwork for Serra Angel into the version we see today by Donato Giancola. It's one thing to ban cards because they no longer fit within the context of modern society when it's another when you ban playable cards that are a key piece to someone's deck regardless of format without a viable substitute. Sometimes solutions can invite it's own set of problems even If it's justified.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I strongly believe wizards is purposely trying to reset the MTG game. I think some ceo told them that the company could make billions of dollars if they focused all their attention on online tournaments. How they are going to do this? I think this is a starting point. We are going to see a second and a 3rd wave of banning's. And it'll come to a point that wizards will say, "I think we are going to stop all paper tournaments and those that play in Arena or Online, will play with such ban cards but those cards will have a new name and new art."
For the past year wizards has been Anti-Cardshop. So this move will not come a surprise.
I personally enjoy paying by the format rules, so I can build decks and play casually with other friends without inserting personal rules. Though I would like to follow the new ban rules, but I feel insulted that these racist bans exist, especially when there was no reason for them. Nobody was flashing Stone Throwing Devils or Invoke Prejudice at players to belittle them.
Anyway, I'm not accepting this BS ban. The ban makes no damn sense!
Nobody was flashing Stone Throwing Devils or Invoke Prejudice at players to belittle them.
You say this yet others on this very forum say they have personally seen this happen. So people are flashing these cards at others to belittle them.
Knowing that people are using them to belittle others does this change your opinion?
Except I don’t “know” that anyone is actually dOing that. Anecdotal stories online are not proof of anything. And we all know people are willing to say anything to sell their point.
How many people actually knew “Stone-Throwing Devils” is a pejorative for Palestinians prior to this incident. I’m a fairly well read individual and I did not, and by extrapolation I’ll presume that vast majority, if not all, the people I’ve played those around didn’t know either.
If some jerk-wad is flashing those cards in that manner, that's behavioral issue, not truly the card’s fault. Invoke Prejudice is problematic on so many levels that’s fine, been expecting that for years honestly. But the others feel like a bit of a stretch.
Since most of these cards rarely see play outside of niche formats, the game will survive without them in sanctioned events.
For the past year wizards has been Anti-Cardshop. So this move will not come a surprise.
On a business perspective it makes sense as to why they've been against the Local Game Store (LGS) business model and more in favor of big box retailers like Walmart and Target simply because the profit margins are much higher and safer than at LGSs. On a public relations perspective it's a terrible move that completely neglects the In-Store Play aspect of the Local Game Store (LGS) that big box retailers like Walmart and Target are unable to provide for their customers especially GameStop as their slogan should've been "power to the corporations" because "power to the players" is misleading.
The idea of GameStop implementing In-Store Play for people who play MTG, Pokémon TCG, and Yu-Gi-Oh! by running sanctioned events and Organized Play is laughable at best when they're already going the way of Blockbuster with terrible costumer service, terrible public relations, and bad business practices overall. Maybe If they didn't have such a terrible reputation I'd reconsider the option of GameStop potentially taking over the Local Game Store (LGS) business model and even If they did I feel it would be too corporate compared to how grassroots LGSs we know are properly run.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Nobody was flashing Stone Throwing Devils or Invoke Prejudice at players to belittle them.
You say this yet others on this very forum say they have personally seen this happen. So people are flashing these cards at others to belittle them.
Knowing that people are using them to belittle others does this change your opinion?
LOL... Players would flash an island, counterspell, a lighting bolt, black lotus, expensive standard cards, a foil deck and the intimidation would be aimed on I'm a better player then you because I have such and such in my deck.
For the past year wizards has been Anti-Cardshop. So this move will not come a surprise.
On a business perspective it makes sense as to why they've been against the Local Game Store (LGS) business model and more in favor of big box retailers like Walmart and Target simply because the profit margins are much higher and safer than at LGSs. On a public relations perspective it's a terrible move that completely neglects the In-Store Play aspect of the Local Game Store (LGS) that big box retailers like Walmart and Target are unable to provide for their customers especially GameStop as their slogan should've been "power to the corporations" because "power to the players" is misleading.
The idea of GameStop implementing In-Store Play for people who play MTG, Pokémon TCG, and Yu-Gi-Oh! by running sanctioned events and Organized Play is laughable at best when they're already going the way of Blockbuster with terrible costumer service, terrible public relations, and bad businesss practices overall. Maybe If they didn't have such a terrible reputation I'd reconsider the option of GameStop potentially taking over the Local Game Store (LGS) business model and even If they did I feel it would be too corporate compared to how grassroots LGSs we know are properly run.
It would be cool but Gamestop is too freaking small.
Gamestop has its own issues. I'm not sure what can be done to fix it. I do see it going away like RadioShack and Blockbuster.
I'm trying to see why wizards is doing this. The current protest has nothing to do with magic, unless their cooperate office is next door to CHAZ. And the ban list is what CHAZ created. Wishful thinking, I guess.
I don't see anything good from this ban list. It's opens the game based on players feelings. And if you ask a casual player most likely they will call Counterspell a racist and sexist card.
The current protest has nothing to do with magic, unless their cooperate office is next door to CHAZ.
Well both Wizards of the Coast and CHAZ are located in Seattle, Washington.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Some background: A document was released on Twitter detailing a history of systemic racism in WotC hiring practices. I'm sure anyone can find, read and judge it for themselves if they're interested, so I won't derail this thread by describing any additional details here. It concluded by showing that not only was Invoke Prejudice and its art on Gatherer, but the cards multiverse ID was 1488 (again, Google it if you need to). This is despite there being a comment in the gatherer discussion from 2012 asking that the ID be changed.
The clear evidence that in 8 years they couldn't even fix a URL was hard to ignore and supported the rest of document. Some of us on Twitter were vocal in demanding some kind of response to the claims and 3 days later they banned the 7 cards, removed their images from Gatherer and changed the ID. I assume this was a direct response to the player initiated discussions on Twitter. Since we have also seen a call for creative writing samples from BIPOC individuals.
Again, I don't believe this thread or forum is an appropriate venue for discussing opinions on these actions or what they might have done differently, but thought this additional context might help to clarify how they came about.
I've never heard of 1488, it seemed like something that 4 chan created some 10 years ago. Maybe something like the Tree Octopus or Slender Man.
The characters in Invoke Prejudice look more like executioners with a head chopping axe. It's quite possible that the artist wanted to use KKK men but decided to self censor himself by making black hooded men and giving the men an axe instead of a burning cross (Yes I'm assuming this), and it's quite possible that wizards altered the art too (there are many stories how they hired artist and still made modifications to their art).
Either case, I don't see white hooded men and a burning cross. You can google executioners hoods and are going to get a man wearing a black pointy hood, oddly similar to the art in Invoke Prejudice.
In todays age, people call all kinds of stuff racist for various reasons, and basically non of them are actual racism.
If there is no intention of racism , calling stuff racist is many times more harmful than what that supposed racism would ever be able to do.
Its a form of reversed shaming, blaming and infuses all kinds of topics with the race issue, that have no issue with it at all.
Its like you have a perfectly fine relationship with a black friend, and they suddenly call you racist ALL THE TIME, would you really enjoy that company ? Quickly you will simply avoid that old friend and never speak with them ever again.
----
Its a spiral of stupidity , and the mob is shouting for more, divide more, make race more of a topic, so we get more real racism and people blaming and crying all the time, instead of actually fixing problems that matter.
If every single problem is broken down and claimed to be race based, people will be forever divided.
----
If we take a look at the recent history of what WotC is doing, then its actively destroying fine stores, banning people for absolute nonsense reasons, and using their stupidity agenda to attract more people that have all kinds of issues that the entire community suddenly is supposed to deal with.
Pro Magic is not about playing the game to its fullest, its the craziest virtue signaling band wagon there could be.
Absolute train wreck.
Artists in Magic are absolutely disgraced, dishonored and spit on.
They just want art and nobody is to talk about anything, as the slightest cry on twitter will burst the full blown cancel culture response of WotC.
They cant deal with any problems and they force them to go away by actively cutting their own flesh out, at some point that will bleed the entire company to death, as nobody in their right mind should ever want to work in such a place (and given the responses on plattforms that talk about employers, WotC is an absolute graveyard).
----
What the game truly needs is to resort back to its strongest roots.
Make the game great, keep any kind of politics out of the game.
Keep any social agenda out of the game, people that want to use the game as a escape from their daily work, studies or their own problems should absolutely be able to have a good time with anybody else.
Do not bring your real life issues into the game, keep them out of it.
Nobody should care what sex/gender, skin color, race, religion, political views or whatever anybody has, people in the past could play some Magic together, and today they actively avoid each other and cry if anybody ever critiques them, or dares to tell them their honest opinion.
People cannot deal with that anymore, and WotC also lost any spirit in that regard.
----
Also for old cards, WotC is probably even fine by banning all kinds of old cards, as its meaningless to them, old cards dont make them any more money, so ban them all.
They would probably really just like to ban all cards prior to 2000, its simply not a collectors game anymore, its about milking people to the max and sell them their crack directly, make them as addicted as possible and suck them dry.
All the people in the last bunch of years that heavily invested in the game and its newer cards lost tremendous amounts of money. All the cards are basically worthless (i told them, buy old cards, dont buy the new crap) , but you keep getting more people that just never learn anything.
And thats exactly the people that will see someone with a Black Lotus and other power cards and despise them, literally throw insults at them, how dare you play expensive cards.
In the past, you saw someone with old expensive cards, and it was a worthwhile goal to get them on your own.
Having any power card felt good, you could possess a part of the games history, its identity.
Today, theres nothing like that anymore, it just too much, nothing really matters anymore, its consume and forget.
----
At some point the "religious" symbols on cards where forbidden.
They even didnt print any demons, as the creature type was claimed problematic.
And the first demon they printed again to abbolish that stupid idea was ironically Grinning Demon , which took a laugh at it and made it happen. Juzám Djinn was a card that people wanted, like a piece of art, not because its crazy powerful, but the card carried a lot of nostalgia.
Banning cards for supposedly racist reasons is just as stupid as banning them for religious reasons.
And if you are not ok with either banning for whatever reason, then non should be banned at all.
Its art, and the intentions of these artworks is pretty much guaranteed to be not racist to any harmful degree.
If any artwork with a black person on it that isnt a shining hero could be potentially racist, then we are in tremendous trouble, and it might get to that point if they keep falling down that path.
Garruk vs Liliana was a major deal with supposed sexism on a card, violence against women is bad ; but violence from women against men, well thats not an issue at all. Triumph of Ferocity, outlawed art, claimed sexist against women and crazy claims to display a drunk beating up a innocent women. Triumph of Cruelty, a women, torturing and cursing a men on the ground, ... no problem at all ...
These kinds of issues are just nonsense and having people that make these claims is just cutting deep into the fan base.
Seriously keep real life out of the game.
Some people will always find an issue with any artwork. People should be able to deal with that, if they cant they have much more sever mental issues to deal with then the artwork.
----
Banning art is always a sign of a person that just doesnt want to deal with their own issues and drag anybody down with them into a pile of fighting for who is the morally superior.
Its just nonsense.
All art needs to be allowed, all art will spark discussions and have people deal with whatever the art might message to them.
And having such a discussion is a good thing.
It makes some people laugh, it makes some people enjoy the art more, others might hate an art, and its all fine and equally worthwhile to have.
In todays age, people call all kinds of stuff racist for various reasons, and basically non of them are actual racism.
If there is no intention of racism , calling stuff racist is many times more harmful than what that supposed racism would ever be able to do.
Its a form of reversed shaming, blaming and infuses all kinds of topics with the race issue, that have no issue with it at all.
Its like you have a perfectly fine relationship with a black friend, and they suddenly call you racist ALL THE TIME, would you really enjoy that company ? Quickly you will simply avoid that old friend and never speak with them ever again.
----
Its a spiral of stupidity , and the mob is shouting for more, divide more, make race more of a topic, so we get more real racism and people blaming and crying all the time, instead of actually fixing problems that matter.
If every single problem is broken down and claimed to be race based, people will be forever divided.
----
If we take a look at the recent history of what WotC is doing, then its actively destroying fine stores, banning people for absolute nonsense reasons, and using their stupidity agenda to attract more people that have all kinds of issues that the entire community suddenly is supposed to deal with.
Pro Magic is not about playing the game to its fullest, its the craziest virtue signaling band wagon there could be.
Absolute train wreck.
Artists in Magic are absolutely disgraced, dishonored and spit on.
They just want art and nobody is to talk about anything, as the slightest cry on twitter will burst the full blown cancel culture response of WotC.
They cant deal with any problems and they force them to go away by actively cutting their own flesh out, at some point that will bleed the entire company to death, as nobody in their right mind should ever want to work in such a place (and given the responses on plattforms that talk about employers, WotC is an absolute graveyard).
----
What the game truly needs is to resort back to its strongest roots.
Make the game great, keep any kind of politics out of the game.
Keep any social agenda out of the game, people that want to use the game as a escape from their daily work, studies or their own problems should absolutely be able to have a good time with anybody else.
Do not bring your real life issues into the game, keep them out of it.
Nobody should care what sex/gender, skin color, race, religion, political views or whatever anybody has, people in the past could play some Magic together, and today they actively avoid each other and cry if anybody ever critiques them, or dares to tell them their honest opinion.
People cannot deal with that anymore, and WotC also lost any spirit in that regard.
----
Also for old cards, WotC is probably even fine by banning all kinds of old cards, as its meaningless to them, old cards dont make them any more money, so ban them all.
They would probably really just like to ban all cards prior to 2000, its simply not a collectors game anymore, its about milking people to the max and sell them their crack directly, make them as addicted as possible and suck them dry.
All the people in the last bunch of years that heavily invested in the game and its newer cards lost tremendous amounts of money. All the cards are basically worthless (i told them, buy old cards, dont buy the new crap) , but you keep getting more people that just never learn anything.
And thats exactly the people that will see someone with a Black Lotus and other power cards and despise them, literally throw insults at them, how dare you play expensive cards.
In the past, you saw someone with old expensive cards, and it was a worthwhile goal to get them on your own.
Having any power card felt good, you could possess a part of the games history, its identity.
Today, theres nothing like that anymore, it just too much, nothing really matters anymore, its consume and forget.
----
At some point the "religious" symbols on cards where forbidden.
They even didnt print any demons, as the creature type was claimed problematic.
And the first demon they printed again to abbolish that stupid idea was ironically Grinning Demon , which took a laugh at it and made it happen. Juzám Djinn was a card that people wanted, like a piece of art, not because its crazy powerful, but the card carried a lot of nostalgia.
Banning cards for supposedly racist reasons is just as stupid as banning them for religious reasons.
And if you are not ok with either banning for whatever reason, then non should be banned at all.
Its art, and the intentions of these artworks is pretty much guaranteed to be not racist to any harmful degree.
If any artwork with a black person on it that isnt a shining hero could be potentially racist, then we are in tremendous trouble, and it might get to that point if they keep falling down that path.
Garruk vs Liliana was a major deal with supposed sexism on a card, violence against women is bad ; but violence from women against men, well thats not an issue at all. Triumph of Ferocity, outlawed art, claimed sexist against women and crazy claims to display a drunk beating up a innocent women. Triumph of Cruelty, a women, torturing and cursing a men on the ground, ... no problem at all ...
These kinds of issues are just nonsense and having people that make these claims is just cutting deep into the fan base.
Seriously keep real life out of the game.
Some people will always find an issue with any artwork. People should be able to deal with that, if they cant they have much more sever mental issues to deal with then the artwork.
----
Banning art is always a sign of a person that just doesnt want to deal with their own issues and drag anybody down with them into a pile of fighting for who is the morally superior.
Its just nonsense.
All art needs to be allowed, all art will spark discussions and have people deal with whatever the art might message to them.
And having such a discussion is a good thing.
It makes some people laugh, it makes some people enjoy the art more, others might hate an art, and its all fine and equally worthwhile to have.
neglecting the reasons why a particular piece might be considered sexist in order to compare it to another piece that isn't doesn't do the arguments justice and reflects bias.
we keep acting like wizards is completely censoring art. they're not. this art still exists, and you can still have it. they're just saying that the product you pay for won't have these depictions any more. you wouldn't accept racist or sexist art on your bag of oreos or on a billboard would you? why should here be different? if it wouldn't be acceptable on a movie poster, why should it be acceptable here? this is a for profit company, not an art gallery. they don't need to accept controversial art, or artists for that matter. that is their right as the employer and producer of this product. just like every other business in america.
the company, and the people employed by it, do have a particular set of values. again, the same as every other company in america. many people won't work for certain companies because of their values, why should this be different? so if art, and artists, don't meet the criteria of what that brand chooses to represent... well, that's the company's right to let them go. just because you enjoy the product they produce doesn't mean that can all be ignored.
lets work toward creating a better, stronger, more inclusive community by moving forward. lets be proud of the game, lets be proud of the community around it, lets celebrate each other and how we bond through this game.
neglecting the reasons why a particular piece might be considered sexist in order to compare it to another piece that isn't doesn't do the arguments justice and reflects bias.
we keep acting like wizards is completely censoring art. they're not. this art still exists, and you can still have it. they're just saying that the product you pay for won't have these depictions any more. you wouldn't accept racist or sexist art on your bag of oreos or on a billboard would you? why should here be different? if it wouldn't be acceptable on a movie poster, why should it be acceptable here? this is a for profit company, not an art gallery. they don't need to accept controversial art, or artists for that matter. that is their right as the employer and producer of this product. just like every other business in america.
the company, and the people employed by it, do have a particular set of values. again, the same as every other company in america. many people won't work for certain companies because of their values, why should this be different? so if art, and artists, don't meet the criteria of what that brand chooses to represent... well, that's the company's right to let them go. just because you enjoy the product they produce doesn't mean that can all be ignored.
lets work toward creating a better, stronger, more inclusive community by moving forward. lets be proud of the game, lets be proud of the community around it, lets celebrate each other and how we bond through this game.
You present one of the few decent arguments and perspectives I've read about or heard on this topic thus far.
However, I do have an issue with your lack of Capitals Letters at the beginnings of sentences and America.
It may seem insignificant or inconsequential, but consider this a reminder that form is as important as, if not more so than content.
Personally, I think the future is bleak once a society encourages its artists to only produce "safe art", because expressing themselves sincerely could result in negative consequences beyond simple negative criticism; something which most artists likely expect and appreciate for their honest, constructive, and motivational nature, not so they can tone down and appease every or a particular demographic, but so they know how to provoke a strong emotional response from their audience in the future, which is essentially the purpose of creating most art in the first place; to get people talking, speculating, questioning its meaning or the ideas and emotions reflected in the imagery, music, or writing.
Public Mod Note
(motleyslayer):
warning issued for trolling-motleyslayer
neglecting the reasons why a particular piece might be considered sexist in order to compare it to another piece that isn't doesn't do the arguments justice and reflects bias.
we keep acting like wizards is completely censoring art. they're not. this art still exists, and you can still have it. they're just saying that the product you pay for won't have these depictions any more. you wouldn't accept racist or sexist art on your bag of oreos or on a billboard would you? why should here be different? if it wouldn't be acceptable on a movie poster, why should it be acceptable here? this is a for profit company, not an art gallery. they don't need to accept controversial art, or artists for that matter. that is their right as the employer and producer of this product. just like every other business in america.
the company, and the people employed by it, do have a particular set of values. again, the same as every other company in america. many people won't work for certain companies because of their values, why should this be different? so if art, and artists, don't meet the criteria of what that brand chooses to represent... well, that's the company's right to let them go. just because you enjoy the product they produce doesn't mean that can all be ignored.
lets work toward creating a better, stronger, more inclusive community by moving forward. lets be proud of the game, lets be proud of the community around it, lets celebrate each other and how we bond through this game.
You present one of the few decent arguments and perspectives I've read about or heard on this topic thus far.
However, I do have an issue with your lack of Capitals Letters at the beginnings of sentences and America.
It may seem insignificant or inconsequential, but consider this a reminder that form is as important as, if not more so than content.
Personally, I think the future is bleak once a society encourages its artists to only produce "safe art", because expressing themselves sincerely could result in negative consequences beyond simple negative criticism; something which most artists likely expect and appreciate for their honest, constructive, and motivational nature, not so they can tone down and appease every or a particular demographic, but so they know how to provoke a strong emotional response from their audience in the future, which is essentially the purpose of creating most art in the first place; to get people talking, speculating, questioning its meaning or the ideas and emotions reflected in the imagery, music, or writing.
first, don't really give a ***** about my form. especially things as minor as capitalization. a forum is a place for conversation, its not an english essay that needs to be graded. that isn't really here or there in regard to the conversation. attacking that is not really conducive to the conversation at all.
second, i think you're grossly misunderstanding the argument by saying that this forces artists to produce safe art. in fact, i think it goes a long way to deflect and downplay the actual issue. her art was already safe. her art is some of the safest, and arguably some of the best in the entire game. its been that way for her entire career. the issue at hand isn't her art at all, its the values she represents and how they contradict with the values that the company has.
we keep forgetting that no one is going around blotting out her art, the cards aren't banned, you can even purchase prints. wizards does not have to employ people who don't hold up the values that the company has, or wants to have. it doesn't matter how long they've been employed either.
this goes on everywhere, at every company. this isn't anything new at all. we see it all the time at every level of business. people lose sponsors, companies lose sales. that's reality. she can still find work with a company with less strict guidelines toward company values, or she can change her views.
if you go on social media and badmouth your employer, you can get fired. if you push agendas that directly contradict your employers, you can be fired. that's reality. that's the world we live in.
she's not being censored in any way, she's being told we won't do business with you any more because of your views do not match our own. same as so many other businesses do. a lot of companies have zero tolerance for sexism, racism, or any number of things in that vein. wizards should not be different just because their cards feature art. if she's vocally supporting and saying things contradictory to their values and mission statements... that's not an employee you need or want. that's not good for the brand. wizards is not obligated to employ that person, and they're not obligated to pay for or to display their art just because they're an artist.
Her moral values as an individual have no connection or correlation to her value as an artist.
The two should never be conflated or even compared.
It's literally apples and oranges.
Every person is many things when it comes to titles and behaviors.
Do you judge someone's ability to do their job at the office on whether or not they're also a good parent at home or whether they even have a spouse or kids? Should I fire my subordinate or overlook them for a promotion because he doesn't pay his bills on time (which proves he's irresponsible), or because his kids are overweight (which implies he's not a good role model, or encourages bad dietary decisions which negatively impact the health of his own family)? How could I ever risk putting or keeping such an employee in charge of others knowing how irresponsible they are in their personal life?! What if I wasn't privy to those details? Would I act or judge them differently at work?
Now do you understand?
What if your employer is abusive?
Badmouthing on social media suddenly becomes "whistle-blowing", and that's okay right, perhaps even encouraged?
She didn't even do that.
Do what if she has certain opinions.
Those are still HER personal opinions, not reflective of Wizards as an entity.
What if she explicitly said so?
Wouldn't that absolve Wizards of any guilt by association giving them nothing to fear in terms of backlash?
I just can't see why they find her personal opinions as an affiliate so threatening to their product line. It's not like she was on the board of directors.
Only a fool would be any less inclined to buy Magic products because one of many artists had particular opinions which could arguably be considered xenophobic or emotionally harmful (again, to some, but certainly not most people who play this game or in general society)
This may not have been much ado about nothing, but it was certainly a mountain out of a molehill.
I'd determined to figure out a better solution because this situation is not yet beyond compromise.
My feeling is that wizards opened the Pandora box and it looks like they are going to kill the game, especially when they decided to take the high horse and ban 7 cards that they say is racist. Why stop at racist? What not Sexist? Why not violence towards women? Why not remove the Demons, Devils and the Djinns. What about the card Murder? This ban list can suck away 95% of the card pool, leaving only lands.
And since wizards focused on racism... Are they going to ban all cards written in Italian with the "N" word. Sure it's not spelled the same but living in America, I know saying any word relatively close to the "n" word can get you into trouble. Don't believe me, try it.
And everyone will be required to know them, otherwise they are clearly a racist.
----
Its a grim future and it helps absolutely nobody.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Toning down specific creatures depicting scantily-clad women via reprints I think would only hurt the original cards' value by causing an unnecessary demand for them on the Secondary Market that most players wouldn't be able to afford. It reminds me of how Wizards of the Coast toned down Douglas Shuler's artwork for Serra Angel into the version we see today by Donato Giancola. It's one thing to ban cards because they no longer fit within the context of modern society when it's another when you ban playable cards that are a key piece to someone's deck regardless of format without a viable substitute. Sometimes solutions can invite it's own set of problems even If it's justified.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I strongly believe wizards is purposely trying to reset the MTG game. I think some ceo told them that the company could make billions of dollars if they focused all their attention on online tournaments. How they are going to do this? I think this is a starting point. We are going to see a second and a 3rd wave of banning's. And it'll come to a point that wizards will say, "I think we are going to stop all paper tournaments and those that play in Arena or Online, will play with such ban cards but those cards will have a new name and new art."
For the past year wizards has been Anti-Cardshop. So this move will not come a surprise.
I personally enjoy paying by the format rules, so I can build decks and play casually with other friends without inserting personal rules. Though I would like to follow the new ban rules, but I feel insulted that these racist bans exist, especially when there was no reason for them. Nobody was flashing Stone Throwing Devils or Invoke Prejudice at players to belittle them.
Anyway, I'm not accepting this BS ban. The ban makes no damn sense!
Knowing that people are using them to belittle others does this change your opinion?
Except I don’t “know” that anyone is actually dOing that. Anecdotal stories online are not proof of anything. And we all know people are willing to say anything to sell their point.
How many people actually knew “Stone-Throwing Devils” is a pejorative for Palestinians prior to this incident. I’m a fairly well read individual and I did not, and by extrapolation I’ll presume that vast majority, if not all, the people I’ve played those around didn’t know either.
If some jerk-wad is flashing those cards in that manner, that's behavioral issue, not truly the card’s fault.
Invoke Prejudice is problematic on so many levels that’s fine, been expecting that for years honestly. But the others feel like a bit of a stretch.
Since most of these cards rarely see play outside of niche formats, the game will survive without them in sanctioned events.
The idea of GameStop implementing In-Store Play for people who play MTG, Pokémon TCG, and Yu-Gi-Oh! by running sanctioned events and Organized Play is laughable at best when they're already going the way of Blockbuster with terrible costumer service, terrible public relations, and bad business practices overall. Maybe If they didn't have such a terrible reputation I'd reconsider the option of GameStop potentially taking over the Local Game Store (LGS) business model and even If they did I feel it would be too corporate compared to how grassroots LGSs we know are properly run.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
LOL... Players would flash an island, counterspell, a lighting bolt, black lotus, expensive standard cards, a foil deck and the intimidation would be aimed on I'm a better player then you because I have such and such in my deck.
Is this the ban list we need?
It would be cool but Gamestop is too freaking small.
Gamestop has its own issues. I'm not sure what can be done to fix it. I do see it going away like RadioShack and Blockbuster.
I'm trying to see why wizards is doing this. The current protest has nothing to do with magic, unless their cooperate office is next door to CHAZ. And the ban list is what CHAZ created. Wishful thinking, I guess.
I don't see anything good from this ban list. It's opens the game based on players feelings. And if you ask a casual player most likely they will call Counterspell a racist and sexist card.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
The clear evidence that in 8 years they couldn't even fix a URL was hard to ignore and supported the rest of document. Some of us on Twitter were vocal in demanding some kind of response to the claims and 3 days later they banned the 7 cards, removed their images from Gatherer and changed the ID. I assume this was a direct response to the player initiated discussions on Twitter. Since we have also seen a call for creative writing samples from BIPOC individuals.
Again, I don't believe this thread or forum is an appropriate venue for discussing opinions on these actions or what they might have done differently, but thought this additional context might help to clarify how they came about.
The characters in Invoke Prejudice look more like executioners with a head chopping axe. It's quite possible that the artist wanted to use KKK men but decided to self censor himself by making black hooded men and giving the men an axe instead of a burning cross (Yes I'm assuming this), and it's quite possible that wizards altered the art too (there are many stories how they hired artist and still made modifications to their art).
Either case, I don't see white hooded men and a burning cross. You can google executioners hoods and are going to get a man wearing a black pointy hood, oddly similar to the art in Invoke Prejudice.
If there is no intention of racism , calling stuff racist is many times more harmful than what that supposed racism would ever be able to do.
Its a form of reversed shaming, blaming and infuses all kinds of topics with the race issue, that have no issue with it at all.
Its like you have a perfectly fine relationship with a black friend, and they suddenly call you racist ALL THE TIME, would you really enjoy that company ? Quickly you will simply avoid that old friend and never speak with them ever again.
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Its a spiral of stupidity , and the mob is shouting for more, divide more, make race more of a topic, so we get more real racism and people blaming and crying all the time, instead of actually fixing problems that matter.
If every single problem is broken down and claimed to be race based, people will be forever divided.
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If we take a look at the recent history of what WotC is doing, then its actively destroying fine stores, banning people for absolute nonsense reasons, and using their stupidity agenda to attract more people that have all kinds of issues that the entire community suddenly is supposed to deal with.
Pro Magic is not about playing the game to its fullest, its the craziest virtue signaling band wagon there could be.
Absolute train wreck.
Artists in Magic are absolutely disgraced, dishonored and spit on.
They just want art and nobody is to talk about anything, as the slightest cry on twitter will burst the full blown cancel culture response of WotC.
They cant deal with any problems and they force them to go away by actively cutting their own flesh out, at some point that will bleed the entire company to death, as nobody in their right mind should ever want to work in such a place (and given the responses on plattforms that talk about employers, WotC is an absolute graveyard).
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What the game truly needs is to resort back to its strongest roots.
Make the game great, keep any kind of politics out of the game.
Keep any social agenda out of the game, people that want to use the game as a escape from their daily work, studies or their own problems should absolutely be able to have a good time with anybody else.
Do not bring your real life issues into the game, keep them out of it.
Nobody should care what sex/gender, skin color, race, religion, political views or whatever anybody has, people in the past could play some Magic together, and today they actively avoid each other and cry if anybody ever critiques them, or dares to tell them their honest opinion.
People cannot deal with that anymore, and WotC also lost any spirit in that regard.
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Also for old cards, WotC is probably even fine by banning all kinds of old cards, as its meaningless to them, old cards dont make them any more money, so ban them all.
They would probably really just like to ban all cards prior to 2000, its simply not a collectors game anymore, its about milking people to the max and sell them their crack directly, make them as addicted as possible and suck them dry.
All the people in the last bunch of years that heavily invested in the game and its newer cards lost tremendous amounts of money. All the cards are basically worthless (i told them, buy old cards, dont buy the new crap) , but you keep getting more people that just never learn anything.
And thats exactly the people that will see someone with a Black Lotus and other power cards and despise them, literally throw insults at them, how dare you play expensive cards.
In the past, you saw someone with old expensive cards, and it was a worthwhile goal to get them on your own.
Having any power card felt good, you could possess a part of the games history, its identity.
Today, theres nothing like that anymore, it just too much, nothing really matters anymore, its consume and forget.
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At some point the "religious" symbols on cards where forbidden.
They even didnt print any demons, as the creature type was claimed problematic.
And the first demon they printed again to abbolish that stupid idea was ironically Grinning Demon , which took a laugh at it and made it happen.
Juzám Djinn was a card that people wanted, like a piece of art, not because its crazy powerful, but the card carried a lot of nostalgia.
Banning cards for supposedly racist reasons is just as stupid as banning them for religious reasons.
And if you are not ok with either banning for whatever reason, then non should be banned at all.
Its art, and the intentions of these artworks is pretty much guaranteed to be not racist to any harmful degree.
If any artwork with a black person on it that isnt a shining hero could be potentially racist, then we are in tremendous trouble, and it might get to that point if they keep falling down that path.
Garruk vs Liliana was a major deal with supposed sexism on a card, violence against women is bad ; but violence from women against men, well thats not an issue at all.
Triumph of Ferocity, outlawed art, claimed sexist against women and crazy claims to display a drunk beating up a innocent women.
Triumph of Cruelty, a women, torturing and cursing a men on the ground, ... no problem at all ...
These kinds of issues are just nonsense and having people that make these claims is just cutting deep into the fan base.
Seriously keep real life out of the game.
Some people will always find an issue with any artwork. People should be able to deal with that, if they cant they have much more sever mental issues to deal with then the artwork.
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Banning art is always a sign of a person that just doesnt want to deal with their own issues and drag anybody down with them into a pile of fighting for who is the morally superior.
Its just nonsense.
All art needs to be allowed, all art will spark discussions and have people deal with whatever the art might message to them.
And having such a discussion is a good thing.
It makes some people laugh, it makes some people enjoy the art more, others might hate an art, and its all fine and equally worthwhile to have.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
neglecting the reasons why a particular piece might be considered sexist in order to compare it to another piece that isn't doesn't do the arguments justice and reflects bias.
we keep acting like wizards is completely censoring art. they're not. this art still exists, and you can still have it. they're just saying that the product you pay for won't have these depictions any more. you wouldn't accept racist or sexist art on your bag of oreos or on a billboard would you? why should here be different? if it wouldn't be acceptable on a movie poster, why should it be acceptable here? this is a for profit company, not an art gallery. they don't need to accept controversial art, or artists for that matter. that is their right as the employer and producer of this product. just like every other business in america.
the company, and the people employed by it, do have a particular set of values. again, the same as every other company in america. many people won't work for certain companies because of their values, why should this be different? so if art, and artists, don't meet the criteria of what that brand chooses to represent... well, that's the company's right to let them go. just because you enjoy the product they produce doesn't mean that can all be ignored.
lets work toward creating a better, stronger, more inclusive community by moving forward. lets be proud of the game, lets be proud of the community around it, lets celebrate each other and how we bond through this game.
You present one of the few decent arguments and perspectives I've read about or heard on this topic thus far.
However, I do have an issue with your lack of Capitals Letters at the beginnings of sentences and America.
It may seem insignificant or inconsequential, but consider this a reminder that form is as important as, if not more so than content.
Personally, I think the future is bleak once a society encourages its artists to only produce "safe art", because expressing themselves sincerely could result in negative consequences beyond simple negative criticism; something which most artists likely expect and appreciate for their honest, constructive, and motivational nature, not so they can tone down and appease every or a particular demographic, but so they know how to provoke a strong emotional response from their audience in the future, which is essentially the purpose of creating most art in the first place; to get people talking, speculating, questioning its meaning or the ideas and emotions reflected in the imagery, music, or writing.
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
first, don't really give a ***** about my form. especially things as minor as capitalization. a forum is a place for conversation, its not an english essay that needs to be graded. that isn't really here or there in regard to the conversation. attacking that is not really conducive to the conversation at all.
second, i think you're grossly misunderstanding the argument by saying that this forces artists to produce safe art. in fact, i think it goes a long way to deflect and downplay the actual issue. her art was already safe. her art is some of the safest, and arguably some of the best in the entire game. its been that way for her entire career. the issue at hand isn't her art at all, its the values she represents and how they contradict with the values that the company has.
we keep forgetting that no one is going around blotting out her art, the cards aren't banned, you can even purchase prints. wizards does not have to employ people who don't hold up the values that the company has, or wants to have. it doesn't matter how long they've been employed either.
this goes on everywhere, at every company. this isn't anything new at all. we see it all the time at every level of business. people lose sponsors, companies lose sales. that's reality. she can still find work with a company with less strict guidelines toward company values, or she can change her views.
if you go on social media and badmouth your employer, you can get fired. if you push agendas that directly contradict your employers, you can be fired. that's reality. that's the world we live in.
she's not being censored in any way, she's being told we won't do business with you any more because of your views do not match our own. same as so many other businesses do. a lot of companies have zero tolerance for sexism, racism, or any number of things in that vein. wizards should not be different just because their cards feature art. if she's vocally supporting and saying things contradictory to their values and mission statements... that's not an employee you need or want. that's not good for the brand. wizards is not obligated to employ that person, and they're not obligated to pay for or to display their art just because they're an artist.
The two should never be conflated or even compared.
It's literally apples and oranges.
Every person is many things when it comes to titles and behaviors.
Do you judge someone's ability to do their job at the office on whether or not they're also a good parent at home or whether they even have a spouse or kids? Should I fire my subordinate or overlook them for a promotion because he doesn't pay his bills on time (which proves he's irresponsible), or because his kids are overweight (which implies he's not a good role model, or encourages bad dietary decisions which negatively impact the health of his own family)? How could I ever risk putting or keeping such an employee in charge of others knowing how irresponsible they are in their personal life?! What if I wasn't privy to those details? Would I act or judge them differently at work?
Now do you understand?
What if your employer is abusive?
Badmouthing on social media suddenly becomes "whistle-blowing", and that's okay right, perhaps even encouraged?
She didn't even do that.
Do what if she has certain opinions.
Those are still HER personal opinions, not reflective of Wizards as an entity.
What if she explicitly said so?
Wouldn't that absolve Wizards of any guilt by association giving them nothing to fear in terms of backlash?
I just can't see why they find her personal opinions as an affiliate so threatening to their product line. It's not like she was on the board of directors.
Only a fool would be any less inclined to buy Magic products because one of many artists had particular opinions which could arguably be considered xenophobic or emotionally harmful (again, to some, but certainly not most people who play this game or in general society)
This may not have been much ado about nothing, but it was certainly a mountain out of a molehill.
I'd determined to figure out a better solution because this situation is not yet beyond compromise.
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage