It seems that Wizards is ending their relationship with artist Terese Nielsen due to controversy surrounding her ties to offensive individuals and/or groups. This is my paraphrasing of the article; please read the article and the quotes from Doug Beyer, Principle Game Designer on the Worldbuilding Team for MT:G for exactly what was said. Beyer did confirm they have not commissioned new art from Nielsen for a while and that the last set to have any reprint art from Nielsen will be this Fall's Zendikar Rising.
Just get rid of all the people that made you what you are.
The moment they cant find anybody else to cancel culture away, they will eat their own.
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The massive hate Nielson had to endure is way more dramatic.
At this point WotC is imprisoned in their own stupidity.
Question is just when it will backfire on them.
As long as they can fill the people they outlaw and cancel away with more paying whales, they might just continue running into their doom.
I have mixed feelings. I think it's probably wise for them to not hire her for any NEW art with how things currently stand, but the thought of losing her art on reprints makes me sad, because let's face it, no matter what she has done or said, I would hope anyone can recognize that no conversation about the best artists and card art in the game would be complete without including her/ That art for Study is one of the most recognizable, iconic pieces in the gae
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Interesting, I thought they already had but I guess this is more formal. I'm sure the usual suspects will bemoan this as virtue signaling gone amok, but WotC is a business and businesses distancing themselves from contractors with controversial public images is fairly pedestrian at this point. Being associated with the alt-right is just not appealing to most businesses so WotC making this move is so predictable I literally assumed it had already happened.
I mean you have stupid and then there is Alex "frogs are gay and Obama did Sandyhook" Jones level of complete no brain functioning stupid.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I mean you have stupid and then there is Alex "frogs are gay and Obama did Sandyhook" Jones level of complete no brain functioning stupid.
Mike "Pizzagate" Cernovich shouldn't be discounted in that. He's weighing in on Nielsen's situation with WotC claiming it's cancel culture and such, which is a tad hypocritical given what Cernovich himself attempted with James Gunn and Sam Seder. Has Nielsen herself responded?
I have mixed feelings. I think it's probably wise for them to not hire her for any NEW art with how things currently stand, but the thought of losing her art on reprints makes me sad, because let's face it, no matter what she has done or said, I would hope anyone can recognize that no conversation about the best artists and card art in the game would be complete without including her/ That art for Study is one of the most recognizable, iconic pieces in the gae
I think there's certainly a conversation to be had around the complexities of separating art from the artist, particularly around how to deal with previous works.
she reps the brand, her views aren't reflective of what that brand wants to stand for. that's their right. she can still have those views, she can still produce art, she just won't get paid by wizards any more. just because you produce high quality art does not mean you have the right to be continually employed here.
banning the cards because she was the artist would be a step too far and unnecessary, ending employment is fair and fine. people are held accountable for their views all the time, wotc should be no different than any other employer. they're not saying you can't have them, they're just saying we dont' support you or those ideas, and we won't be paying you any more. same as just about every other company in america.
the biggest issue isn't that wotc is finally doing something about these artists/cards, its not that they're finally taking a stance. its that they waited almost 30 years to do it, and now they're doing it all at once.
my real question for them is, how the **** are you cleaning up the playerbase? the toxic playerbase that so frequently accepts these behaviors, and gets downright nasty pushing back against these decisions.
the community has to strive to be better than it is. moves like these do help push it in that direction, but god damn is it going to be a long and difficult road because of just how toxic the community has become over the years.
I mean you have stupid and then there is Alex "frogs are gay and Obama did Sandyhook" Jones level of complete no brain functioning stupid.
Mike "Pizzagate" Cernovich shouldn't be discounted in that. He's weighing in on Nielsen's situation with WotC claiming it's cancel culture and such, which is a tad hypocritical given what Cernovich himself attempted with James Gunn and Sam Seder. Has Nielsen herself responded?
I wasn't aware of who Mike Cernovich was.
On that note is surpassing the number of people who seeming don't understand what a freelance artist is.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I think there's certainly a conversation to be had around the complexities of separating art from the artist, particularly around how to deal with previous works.
This. The sooner people understand to differentiate the art from the artist, the better their life will be. People who can't like certain card-scribblers just come across as petty and unable to fathom such a simple concept.
I mean you have stupid and then there is Alex "frogs are gay and Obama did Sandyhook" Jones level of complete no brain functioning stupid.
Mike "Pizzagate" Cernovich shouldn't be discounted in that. He's weighing in on Nielsen's situation with WotC claiming it's cancel culture and such, which is a tad hypocritical given what Cernovich himself attempted with James Gunn and Sam Seder. Has Nielsen herself responded?
I have mixed feelings. I think it's probably wise for them to not hire her for any NEW art with how things currently stand, but the thought of losing her art on reprints makes me sad, because let's face it, no matter what she has done or said, I would hope anyone can recognize that no conversation about the best artists and card art in the game would be complete without including her/ That art for Study is one of the most recognizable, iconic pieces in the gae
I think there's certainly a conversation to be had around the complexities of separating art from the artist, particularly around how to deal with previous works.
Someone people here can't even understand we've been using they/them/their as a singular gender neutral term for years, lets not overwhelm them with death of the author.
For real though yeah I say just not commission new art and use new art for the cards if possible. I never was a fan of hers so I'm not too bummed.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Why can't people seperate the art from the artist?!
Should all Roman Polanski movies be banned from Netflix?
(it's okay to have that opinion, but don't force it upon the majority when you can simply avoid watching his films)
This is absolutely terrible news... a poor unethical decision made under the guise of false righteousness, and clearly pandering to a vocal minority who will always find someone or something offensive.
I'm genuinely upset and now seriously going to reconsider MY (consumer) relationship with Wizards for the future (or perhaps the complete lack thereof)!
After all, I have way more cards than I ever need both physically and on Arena, and without any live events for the foreseeable future, perhaps many of us don't need to purchase new product anymore! To what end? Stockpile on a shelf in the hopes they can be played with at a store or tournament in 6 months from now?
Unbelievable. Shame on whoever made this decision.
While I do have some of her cards signed, I've never met her and don't know much about her as an individual.
However, this is an insult and injustice to artists everywhere, and a clear violation of legally guaranteed freedoms of expression and affiliation.
If she were listed as an employee, she'd have grounds for a wrongful termination lawsuit and it would be an open-shut case, but clearly Wizards has abused their privilege by using them as contractors whom they feel they can dismiss capriciously, and whose artistic contributions they can expunge arbitrarily based on the political winds of change and thin-skilled members of the new generation who find offense with anything which doesn't conform to their own ideology.
You can't simply fire someone who was a team player for decades and still works hard and within the rules of your organization simply because you have a difference of political opinion or don't like what radio stations they listen to, someone they communicate with, or some organization they're loosely affiliated with or commented about outside of work on their own personal time.
As I've mentioned previously, I don't support cancel-culture nor the censorship of art or artists under any circumstances.
This is absolutely disgusting
What people should really be asking is...
What kind of immature individual defaces an artist's commissioned work, expunges their name at the bottom of their cards, and uses Magic cards to make political statements to begin with?!
Quite frankly, that had no business being in any tournament or game whatsoever.
Wear a hat or t-shirt with your opinion if you must, but who defaces art?
It's akin to throwing up ugly graffiti over someone else's carefully designed mural.
Playing Magic is supposed to be a fun, competitive, and profitable game, that's it.
Everyone is always welcome to play and I encourage them to do so, but keep your politics at the door.
Don't like an artist? That's fine. Don't use their cards in your deck!
But with all due respect, don't intentionally deface and use their cards to advertise your disapproval and ruin other players' experiences.
Those among you who do such things out of spite and to insult artists whose views contrast your own know who you are.
This is life, and sometimes we have to agree to disagree on certain topics and issues.
I'm glad WOTC cut ties with her. It's so disappointing to find that a talented artist is in fact a social and political throwback in this day and age. I'm disappointed in myself for supporting her financially - if I had known what she was actually like I never would have purchased a thing from her.
"However glows his bloom, the bite
proves many a man be rotten at the core." - Terry Pratchett
As said above, being associated with the alt-right isn't exactly a wise business move these days. It should also be said that a person's constitutional rights don't protect them from the personal or professional consequences of being an awful person.
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Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 6/29/20 (Core Set 2021).
I think there's certainly a conversation to be had around the complexities of separating art from the artist, particularly around how to deal with previous works.
This. The sooner people understand to differentiate the art from the artist, the better their life will be. People who can't like certain card-scribblers just come across as petty and unable to fathom such a simple concept.
Oddly enough, I don't think it's that simple. It's the reason I brought up the complexity of separating art from artist, because I don't think it's black and white.
It's easy for me to never watch anything with Kevin Spacey in it, outside of Seven I don't think there's anything he's been in that's a loss for me. Bryan Singer, though, is almost as gross as Spacey but he has several movies that I adore and were influential in my life. Many 70s rock gods did a lot of immoral (and illegal) things with girls, including underage girls, yet unlike his contemporaries I have an easy time separating Bowie and his art because he mattered to me. These things aren't so clear cut as "people do bad, boycott their work" or "appreciate the art, regardless of artist". In many cases, the reprehensible views/actions of the artist provides necessary context for the art they create, most obviously with writers (whether film, stage, page, or otherwise).
I also think there's a time element to it as well. It's easier to ignore the new work of an artist, but it's harder to forget the impacts of work they did in the past. Which is why I'm glad WotC didn't move to ban cards with Nielsen's art even if I think she's got terrible views and I don't mind that she won't be a part of the game going forward.
I think there's certainly a conversation to be had around the complexities of separating art from the artist, particularly around how to deal with previous works.
Someone people here can't even understand we've been using they/them/their as a singular gender neutral term for years, lets not overwhelm them with death of the author.
Hahahaha, bingo. But that is the goal of the conversation, I suppose, mapping out when and where art can be separated from artist so people can make more nuanced decisions about it.
Why can't people seperate the art from the artist?!
Should all Roman Polanski movies be banned from Netflix?
(it's okay to have that opinion, but don't force it upon the majority when you can simply avoid watching his films)
I think Polanski should stop being paid by studios to make movies that end up on Netflix, we can't really do anything about his past work but the least we can do is not offer him a platform. Pretty much the same as the Nielsen/WotC situation, really.
However, this is an insult and injustice to artists everywhere, and a clear violation of legally guaranteed freedoms of expression and affiliation.
If she were listed as an employee, she'd have grounds for a wrongful termination lawsuit and it would be an open-shut case, but clearly Wizards has abused their privilege by using them as contractors whom they feel they can dismiss capriciously, and whose artistic contributions they can expunge arbitrarily based on the political winds of change and thin-skilled members of the new generation who find offense with anything which doesn't conform to their own ideology.
You can't simply fire someone who was a team player for decades and still works hard and within the rules of your organization simply because you have a difference of political opinion or don't like what radio stations they listen to, someone they communicate with, or some organization they're loosely affiliated with or commented about outside of work on their own personal time.
No, you're wrong, and Xcric very succinctly explained why above:
she reps the brand, her views aren't reflective of what that brand wants to stand for. that's their right. she can still have those views, she can still produce art, she just won't get paid by wizards any more. just because you produce high quality art does not mean you have the right to be continually employed here.
Most contracts have clauses written into them in case the business needs to distance themselves from a work/contractor who reflects poorly upon them, for this very reason. Same reason so many FOXNews shows lose advertisers when the host is openly racist, or supporting kids in cages, or repeating conspiracy theories, or whatever they did to court controversy this time. Nobody wants their brand associated with toxic politics, nor can I say I blame them.
* * *
If we're being honest, how much of the pushback on this is genuine support for Nielsen, how much is believing no business can or should do this, and how much is players feeling like WotC's sociopolitical ideals (such as a company even has those) don't align with theirs? I get the sense that some players are feeling left behind, in a sense, and they do not care for it. And that's not just here on MTGS, it's also what I'm seeing on social media.
At this point Wizards of the Coast needs to be sued for discrimination.
I really hate what the MTG community is doing to the game's reputation on social media.
Eventually there's not going to be anyone left to really give a damn.
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America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Any way you slice it, Wizards is making decisions without even polling their consumer base or Terese's fan base which either intentionally or inadvertently, but effectively divides and polarizes the Magic community about a topic which they know most people have a very passionate opinion about; the censorship of art and artists, when instead they should be looking for ways to bring us together through education and reconciliation!
Was Prime Minister Trudeau publicly shamed and removed from office for videos from the past which surfaced with him in blackface?
No. He acknowledged his mistakes, apologized, explained how he had changed as an individual, how he would fight for what's right moving forward, and people accepted that, hence his reason for re-election (albeit with a minority government instead of a majority).
My point is all people make mistakes and that includes those involved in game development. That doesn't make people bad artists, or even bad people. It just means we're fallible and have differences which can lead to bad decisions. It just sucks when a bad decision leads to other people making worse retaliatory decisions dividing the community. In my view, when a person speaks as themselves, they're not making a statement as a representative of the company that employs them, but some have a different opinion (the recent Crossfit CEO incident last week is a good example of something which I also feel was blown out of proportion). When a person misspeaks or says something unsavory, that doesn't nor should it diminish the artist's contributions for something which I believe everyone on this forum loves and wants to preserve despite it's imperfections and shortcomings which most of us already know are mostly mechanical in nature and not artistic as proven by the large number of bans even in standard). Many cards were done artistically in poor taste and others were designed mechanically in poor taste (often pushed too hard to boost sales, perhaps out of desperation due to declining projections without sufficient testing) by individuals working for Wizards whose personalities may not be ideal or whose opinions may be controversial. Should we expunge every such person from contributing artistically to our multiverse or the real world beyond because they once said something or believe something which we find distasteful or don't agree with? Was what she did truly worthy of a lifetime ban? Couldn't she just be suspended for a year and issue a public apology? Surely there must be a better solution for all parties!
Why should a decision be made to make some players happy when it makes so many other players equally upset?!
I've spend a fortune on this game going way back to 1994, specifically because talented contributors like her were involved.
I never even thought about their politics or cared because those personal opinions were irrelevant to their involvement with the game, which was, and still is the art. Why would I? What am I, a groupie? I couldn't care less about your hobbies, if you like your eggs scrambled or over-easy, if you prefer Fox news over CNN, if you use 2-in-1 or separate shampoo and conditioner, if you're a vegan, religious, Republican, an anti-abortionist, watch porn, or find it offensive! If you're an artist, what I care about most...ALL I care about is your art! And this is true for most who appreciate art as is and understands its place and purpose in the world; alone, or as part of other larger cultural products and phenomenons.
What is it that makes someone an artist?
Why do they express themselves the way they do through their art?
These are the questions that matter most!
Why would anyone care what's written on their blog or Twitter feed?
That's not their product; their art and was never meant as a platform to express themselves artistically.
That's literally their by-product; their rant space for lack of a physical diary
Doesn't anyone here even understand what it means to be an artist?
You know the expression "Everybody $h*ts?"
Why is it occasionally so offensive when someone does?
Because sometimes it smells worse, comes out louder so you heard about it, and sometimes there's money involved?
Isn't that the real truth.
For some, saying stupid things is almost like a bodily function and could be ignored if not dismissed. That doesn't make one complicit.
Should everyone caught at a moment of weakness or inattention be judged so harshly because they let their filter down momentarily and expressed what they might have felt or believed all along regardless but but otherwise held back (dishonestly, in essence as a lie of omission) purely to maintain a facade of political correctness? How do we know Wizards isn't still employing artists who are racist but are simply more composed and keep those personal opinions to themselves? Is that okay of them to be despicable simply because we may not know of it yet? Because they haven't been exposed? Out of sight, out of mind I suppose.
Isn't it better socially and also economically when people can freely express themselves honestly without fear of mob mentality judgement or such serious repercussion?
What Terese Nielsen did was hardly a crime and the truth isn't measured in mass appeal, but by crucifying her this way, by giving in to the courts of public opinion, mark my words... Wizards WILL turn her into a martyr.
Nothing they can do will ever change the fact that she is one of the best artists of all time
They should be kissing the soles of her feet for everything she's given them!
Anyway, some challenging questions to ask yourselves...
Don't you or those who are apparently pleased by this decision even grasp or realize what a huge loss this is for Magic as a whole?
Are you not even the slightest bit saddened by this?
Do you sincerely believe that "she got what she deserved"?!
Don't you care about justice, artistic freedom, and all the wasted potential we'll be missing out on moving forward without her involvement?
I can't even fathom a future without her art being included in our game solely because some virtue-signaling executives in suits who've probably never even played a match or have a true appreciate for art decided that this was somehow justified.
If anyone from Wizards is reading this, please, I beg you to reconsider and reverse this decision at the earliest available opportunity.
Terese, if you're reading this, please apologize, not for having your own opinions, but for expressing them irresponsibly in a way which inadvertently offended people whose viewed and lifestyles may seem unorthodox to you, or whose definitions of things may be more abstract or not be as traditional as yours. Offer to do a trans-character art for free if that will smooth relations. Anything
We need a compromise because excommunication and exiling an artist from the game isn't it!
I would never suggest that Wizards needs consensus from the entire Magic playing community or even from their own employees, but don't the opinions of those who buy their products matter before making a decision of this magnitude?
We're not talking about some random new up-and-coming artist who tweeted something about holocaust denial.
This is someone who is very hard worker, cares deeply about women's rights, cares deeply about her fan base, and was often considered the "guest of honor" at many events she attended!
I'd love to hear from some employees who work at Wizards as I'm confident there are plenty who also disagree with this decision.
Alas, many employees would probably be too afraid to even express an opinion or defense for keeping Terese Nielsen on payroll for fear of being fired themselves, which in itself speaks volumes about an obviously toxic political hierarchical structure within the company which dismisses how employees feel by forcing non-disclosure agreements upon individuals to stifle less popular opinions.
If you had to estimate....What percentage of Magic players even had an issue with Terese Nielsen's politics which upset them so much that it interfered with their ability to enjoy the game? 1%? 3%? 5% at most?...unlikely.
And among those, how many have even been playing or collecting Magic for more than five years?
What was their card spending budget over the years they've played?
The reality is that you could probably count the actual number of people on one hand!
Similarly, the amount of money spent on Magic products by those few complainers and rabble-rousers would likely add up to the petty cash you'd find in a Dollar Store till...But who cares about the tens or hundreds of thousands of other players (more likely millions) who never cared one iota about this or any other artist's personal politics and have funneled millions upon millions of hard-earned dollars into this (perhaps overrated) product (after all, there are plenty of other fun games out there) because many of us loved the game and the art, the only two things which should and really matter.
I'm sorry, I'm very distraught.
Perhaps I just took for granted they would never dismiss her under any circumstances.
I never knew how much I cared about and appreciated this artist before today now that she apparently won't be involved anymore.
This news was devastating and literally ruined my day
At this point Wizards of the Coast needs to be sued for discrimination.
By who? Nielsen? I don't see what case she'd have, and I'm sure WotC had their legal team check the contract with her to ensure there couldn't be a legal fight on their hands.
I really hate what the MTG community is doing to the game's reputation on social media.
What is your assessment of the game's reputation on social media?
Let's not overstate the case; her artistic freedom isn't being stifled. She's free to make as much art as her twisted little heart desires - she just can't partner with WOTC/Hasbro to do it. Which is just as well, since I don't want a game I enjoy playing to be some troglodyte's bread and butter.
It's the principle of the thing as well. I don't like her politics and world views, and as a result, I can't possibly hope to support her, as a artist or a person. It's not possible to divorce your politics from all other aspects of your life, not in this day and age.
Let's not overstate the case; her artistic freedom isn't being stifled. She's free to make as much art as her twisted little heart desires - she just can't partner with WOTC/Hasbro to do it. Which is just as well, since I don't want a game I enjoy playing to be some troglodyte's bread and butter.
It's the principle of the thing as well. I don't like her politics and world views, and as a result, I can't possibly hope to support her, as a artist or a person. It's not possible to divorce your politics from all other aspects of your life, not in this day and age.
Her "twisted" little heart?
Why do you have to go there?
Name calling? Slander?
Very mature.
I suppose yours is completely devoid of clots, cholesterol, and you've never even stepped on an ant or spread a germ unknowingly.
I wonder...If only we could all read each others minds and memories what beautiful and horrific things we could all dredge up about the people we thought we know best, only to find some dark secrets, fantasies, or opinions which upset or disgust us and force us to re-evaluate those relationships and ourselves for having been so blind to those facts previously. What percentage of society would be employable or forgivable for then?
People should be judged by the actions, not by their thoughts or opinions.
If you think about physically harming someone or even threaten that's your intent, it's not the same as actually doing it.
Sticks and stones used to be all that hurt our bones.
What changed?
If she were listed as an employee, she'd have grounds for a wrongful termination lawsuit and it would be an open-shut case, but clearly Wizards has abused their privilege by using them as contractors whom they feel they can dismiss capriciously, and whose artistic contributions they can expunge arbitrarily based on the political winds of change and thin-skilled members of the new generation who find offense with anything which doesn't conform to their own ideology.
You can't simply fire someone who was a team player for decades and still works hard and within the rules of your organization simply because you have a difference of political opinion or don't like what radio stations they listen to, someone they communicate with, or some organization they're loosely affiliated with or commented about outside of work on their own personal time.
What makes you think this? I don't mean to attack your belief system just that it is factually incorrect. Discrimination via political affiliation is not prohibited under federal or most state laws. Such that to win a case a congressman proclaimed in court that his gerrymandered state wasn't drawn to group together ethnicities but to disenfranchise Democrats. The court said that was a valid reason to gerrymander. If you think this is wrong get out there with the other protestors and demand that political beliefs be protected like every other division of people.
Was Prime Minister Trudeau publicly shamed and removed from office for videos from the past which surfaced with him in blackface?
No. He acknowledged his mistakes, apologized, explained how he had changed as an individual, how he would fight for what's right moving forward, and people accepted that, hence his reason for re-election (albeit with a minority government instead of a majority).
Do you believe that he would be up for re-election if instead of apologizing he gave a pseudo apology and was seen in blackface the next day? People deserve a second chance. But how many chances do they deserved? After being called out how many more times do you call them out before fulling condemning them?
People should be judged by the actions, not by their thoughts or opinions.
Correrct me if I'm wrong. She isn't being "punished" for "thinking" something but for "acting". She actively supported groups who actively harm already disenfranchised individuals. Should we not judge people by their actions? Or should we only look at their direct specific actions? Are we not responsible for the people we elect or support?
Any way you slice it, Wizards is making decisions without even polling their consumer base or Terese's fan base which either intentionally or inadvertently, but effectively divides and polarizes the Magic community about a topic which they know most people have a very passionate opinion about; the censorship of art and artists, when instead they should be looking for ways to bring us together through education and reconciliation!
WotC frequently conducts surveys and market research to pinpoint where the wider fanbase is, do you expect them to democratize their business completely?
Was Prime Minister Trudeau publicly shamed and removed from office for videos from the past which surfaced with him in blackface?
No. He acknowledged his mistakes, apologized, explained how he had changed as an individual, how he would fight for what's right moving forward, and people accepted that, hence his reason for re-election (albeit with a minority government instead of a majority).
Trudeau had sincerely apologized, demonstrated changes in ways he behaved, and committed to doing better. Nielsen, to my knowledge, has not. If she has, anyone can please feel free to correct me, but my understanding was that Nielsen had issued a really weak statement that wasn't even an apology. So the two aren't overly comparable.
I mean, I still don't like Trudeau and I don't think he won reelection because his apology was fully accepted so much as Canadians weren't into Scheer and were scared to risk a vote for "far left" NDP. But that's a whole other rant, I just don't think Nielsen and Trudeau are comparable.
Why should a decision be made to make some players happy when it makes so many other players equally upset?!
Because that's life? And business? WotC makes decisions every day that will piss off some and delight others. Design choices, artistic directions, story decisions, social media interactions, tourney schedules and rules, bannings, etc.
I've spend a fortune on this game going way back to 1994, specifically because talented contributors like her were involved.
I can appreciate some emotional hyperbole, though I don't know how much of the fandom have spent a fortune over decades for Terese Nielsen. I get what you're trying to say, I just don't think as many people as you think are going to be shook by this.
Isn't it better socially and also economically when people can freely express themselves honestly without fear of mob mentality judgement or such serious repercussion?
You think it's better if there are no consequences?
What Terese Nielsen did was hardly a crime and the truth isn't measured in mass appeal, but by crucifying her this way, by giving in to the courts of public opinion, mark my words... Wizards WILL turn her into a martyr.
That I definitely agree with, there is a segment of the population that seems to really want to have something they can say they were discriminated over, Nielsen will make for a great opportunity. I've already seen people on Twitter holding up her sexuality as a rallying cry so they can feel discriminated against by proxy.
Anyway, some challenging questions to ask yourselves...
Don't you or those who are apparently pleased by this decision even grasp or realize what a huge loss this is for Magic as a whole?
Are you not even the slightest bit saddened by this?
Do you sincerely believe that "she got what she deserved"?!
Don't you care about justice, artistic freedom, and all the wasted potential we'll be missing out on moving forward without her involvement?
1) Is this a huge loss? I mean, a loss (arguably), but a huge loss? No. Nielsen is a great artist, but the game has always had a variety of great artists, and now there's room for more.
2) No. There are bigger things to get me sad at the moment than an artist who acted a fool online, doubled down, and lost a gig.
3) Yes, or at least she faced consequence commensurate with the wrongdoing. I don't make satisfaction from it, but I don't feel she was wronged in any way.
4) I certainly care about justice, that's a decent - if hyperbolic - way of describing what happened to Nielsen. Artistic freedom isn't really a factor here since Nielsen's art wasn't the problem, and she's still free to create art. And not having her involved in the game will impact me 0%, I genuinely don't think there are many people who would honestly be impacted more than 10%. Artists come and go in this game all the time, they don't really rock the fandom. Except perhaps Guay.
I would never suggest that Wizards needs consensus from the entire Magic playing community or even from their own employees, but don't the opinions of those who buy their products matter before making a decision of this magnitude?
Any way you slice it, Wizards is making decisions without even polling their consumer base or Terese's fan base which either intentionally or inadvertently, but effectively divides and polarizes the Magic community about a topic which they know most people have a very passionate opinion about; the censorship of art and artists, when instead they should be looking for ways to bring us together through education and reconciliation!
We're not talking about some random new up-and-coming artist who tweeted something about holocaust denial.
This is someone who is very hard worker, cares deeply about women's rights, cares deeply about her fan base, and was often considered the "guest of honor" at many events she attended!
Why would that matter?
Similarly, the amount of money spent on Magic products by those few complainers and rabble-rousers would likely add up to the petty cash you'd find in a Dollar Store till...But who cares about the tens or hundreds of thousands of other players (more likely millions) who never cared one iota about this or any other artist's personal politics and have funneled millions upon millions of hard-earned dollars into this (perhaps overrated) product (after all, there are plenty of other fun games out there) because many of us loved the game and the art, the only two things which should and really matter.
I'm sorry, I'm very distraught.
Perhaps I just took for granted they would never dismiss her under any circumstances.
I never knew how much I cared about and appreciated this artist before today now that she apparently won't be involved anymore.
This news was devastating and literally ruined my day
Perhaps, then, you may need to take a break? I don't think engaging in this conversation is going to calm you down.
Unfortunate. She is one of my top 5 favorite MTG artists. This only drives another plank between myself and WotC/Hasbro. There will come a time when I may have to part ways. Looks like she may have had a change of heart with some of her past connections. Too bad some are quick to cut ties and not forgive if indeed she has made a change of mind & heart. If so or not WotC reserves the right to choose whom they want, but I am not required to like it. There will be more of this.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I don't see the problem with this or the unsavory seven. They are just more cards to the reserved list without mentioning the reserved list. Which means there is now a market with a solid market ceiling above it for something like "Terese Nielsen Collectibles". People who aim for cancel culture in MTG need a wake up call as they are only expanding a market for collectibles that cannot be reprinted which means they have more inherit value than other variations.
It seems that Wizards is ending their relationship with artist Terese Nielsen due to controversy surrounding her ties to offensive individuals and/or groups. This is my paraphrasing of the article; please read the article and the quotes from Doug Beyer, Principle Game Designer on the Worldbuilding Team for MT:G for exactly what was said. Beyer did confirm they have not commissioned new art from Nielsen for a while and that the last set to have any reprint art from Nielsen will be this Fall's Zendikar Rising.
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Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsJust get rid of all the people that made you what you are.
The moment they cant find anybody else to cancel culture away, they will eat their own.
----
The massive hate Nielson had to endure is way more dramatic.
At this point WotC is imprisoned in their own stupidity.
Question is just when it will backfire on them.
As long as they can fill the people they outlaw and cancel away with more paying whales, they might just continue running into their doom.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
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|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
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Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
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Katingal: Plane of Chains
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Mike "Pizzagate" Cernovich shouldn't be discounted in that. He's weighing in on Nielsen's situation with WotC claiming it's cancel culture and such, which is a tad hypocritical given what Cernovich himself attempted with James Gunn and Sam Seder. Has Nielsen herself responded?
I think there's certainly a conversation to be had around the complexities of separating art from the artist, particularly around how to deal with previous works.
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Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
banning the cards because she was the artist would be a step too far and unnecessary, ending employment is fair and fine. people are held accountable for their views all the time, wotc should be no different than any other employer. they're not saying you can't have them, they're just saying we dont' support you or those ideas, and we won't be paying you any more. same as just about every other company in america.
the biggest issue isn't that wotc is finally doing something about these artists/cards, its not that they're finally taking a stance. its that they waited almost 30 years to do it, and now they're doing it all at once.
my real question for them is, how the **** are you cleaning up the playerbase? the toxic playerbase that so frequently accepts these behaviors, and gets downright nasty pushing back against these decisions.
the community has to strive to be better than it is. moves like these do help push it in that direction, but god damn is it going to be a long and difficult road because of just how toxic the community has become over the years.
I wasn't aware of who Mike Cernovich was.
On that note is surpassing the number of people who seeming don't understand what a freelance artist is.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Someone people here can't even understand we've been using they/them/their as a singular gender neutral term for years, lets not overwhelm them with death of the author.
For real though yeah I say just not commission new art and use new art for the cards if possible. I never was a fan of hers so I'm not too bummed.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Should all Roman Polanski movies be banned from Netflix?
(it's okay to have that opinion, but don't force it upon the majority when you can simply avoid watching his films)
This is absolutely terrible news... a poor unethical decision made under the guise of false righteousness, and clearly pandering to a vocal minority who will always find someone or something offensive.
I'm genuinely upset and now seriously going to reconsider MY (consumer) relationship with Wizards for the future (or perhaps the complete lack thereof)!
After all, I have way more cards than I ever need both physically and on Arena, and without any live events for the foreseeable future, perhaps many of us don't need to purchase new product anymore! To what end? Stockpile on a shelf in the hopes they can be played with at a store or tournament in 6 months from now?
Unbelievable. Shame on whoever made this decision.
While I do have some of her cards signed, I've never met her and don't know much about her as an individual.
However, this is an insult and injustice to artists everywhere, and a clear violation of legally guaranteed freedoms of expression and affiliation.
If she were listed as an employee, she'd have grounds for a wrongful termination lawsuit and it would be an open-shut case, but clearly Wizards has abused their privilege by using them as contractors whom they feel they can dismiss capriciously, and whose artistic contributions they can expunge arbitrarily based on the political winds of change and thin-skilled members of the new generation who find offense with anything which doesn't conform to their own ideology.
You can't simply fire someone who was a team player for decades and still works hard and within the rules of your organization simply because you have a difference of political opinion or don't like what radio stations they listen to, someone they communicate with, or some organization they're loosely affiliated with or commented about outside of work on their own personal time.
As I've mentioned previously, I don't support cancel-culture nor the censorship of art or artists under any circumstances.
This is absolutely disgusting
What people should really be asking is...
What kind of immature individual defaces an artist's commissioned work, expunges their name at the bottom of their cards, and uses Magic cards to make political statements to begin with?!
Quite frankly, that had no business being in any tournament or game whatsoever.
Wear a hat or t-shirt with your opinion if you must, but who defaces art?
It's akin to throwing up ugly graffiti over someone else's carefully designed mural.
Playing Magic is supposed to be a fun, competitive, and profitable game, that's it.
Everyone is always welcome to play and I encourage them to do so, but keep your politics at the door.
Don't like an artist? That's fine. Don't use their cards in your deck!
But with all due respect, don't intentionally deface and use their cards to advertise your disapproval and ruin other players' experiences.
Those among you who do such things out of spite and to insult artists whose views contrast your own know who you are.
This is life, and sometimes we have to agree to disagree on certain topics and issues.
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
"However glows his bloom, the bite
proves many a man be rotten at the core." - Terry Pratchett
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Oddly enough, I don't think it's that simple. It's the reason I brought up the complexity of separating art from artist, because I don't think it's black and white.
It's easy for me to never watch anything with Kevin Spacey in it, outside of Seven I don't think there's anything he's been in that's a loss for me. Bryan Singer, though, is almost as gross as Spacey but he has several movies that I adore and were influential in my life. Many 70s rock gods did a lot of immoral (and illegal) things with girls, including underage girls, yet unlike his contemporaries I have an easy time separating Bowie and his art because he mattered to me. These things aren't so clear cut as "people do bad, boycott their work" or "appreciate the art, regardless of artist". In many cases, the reprehensible views/actions of the artist provides necessary context for the art they create, most obviously with writers (whether film, stage, page, or otherwise).
I also think there's a time element to it as well. It's easier to ignore the new work of an artist, but it's harder to forget the impacts of work they did in the past. Which is why I'm glad WotC didn't move to ban cards with Nielsen's art even if I think she's got terrible views and I don't mind that she won't be a part of the game going forward.
Hahahaha, bingo. But that is the goal of the conversation, I suppose, mapping out when and where art can be separated from artist so people can make more nuanced decisions about it.
I think Polanski should stop being paid by studios to make movies that end up on Netflix, we can't really do anything about his past work but the least we can do is not offer him a platform. Pretty much the same as the Nielsen/WotC situation, really.
No, you're wrong, and Xcric very succinctly explained why above:
Most contracts have clauses written into them in case the business needs to distance themselves from a work/contractor who reflects poorly upon them, for this very reason. Same reason so many FOXNews shows lose advertisers when the host is openly racist, or supporting kids in cages, or repeating conspiracy theories, or whatever they did to court controversy this time. Nobody wants their brand associated with toxic politics, nor can I say I blame them.
* * *
If we're being honest, how much of the pushback on this is genuine support for Nielsen, how much is believing no business can or should do this, and how much is players feeling like WotC's sociopolitical ideals (such as a company even has those) don't align with theirs? I get the sense that some players are feeling left behind, in a sense, and they do not care for it. And that's not just here on MTGS, it's also what I'm seeing on social media.
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Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
I really hate what the MTG community is doing to the game's reputation on social media.
Eventually there's not going to be anyone left to really give a damn.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Was Prime Minister Trudeau publicly shamed and removed from office for videos from the past which surfaced with him in blackface?
No. He acknowledged his mistakes, apologized, explained how he had changed as an individual, how he would fight for what's right moving forward, and people accepted that, hence his reason for re-election (albeit with a minority government instead of a majority).
My point is all people make mistakes and that includes those involved in game development. That doesn't make people bad artists, or even bad people. It just means we're fallible and have differences which can lead to bad decisions. It just sucks when a bad decision leads to other people making worse retaliatory decisions dividing the community. In my view, when a person speaks as themselves, they're not making a statement as a representative of the company that employs them, but some have a different opinion (the recent Crossfit CEO incident last week is a good example of something which I also feel was blown out of proportion). When a person misspeaks or says something unsavory, that doesn't nor should it diminish the artist's contributions for something which I believe everyone on this forum loves and wants to preserve despite it's imperfections and shortcomings which most of us already know are mostly mechanical in nature and not artistic as proven by the large number of bans even in standard). Many cards were done artistically in poor taste and others were designed mechanically in poor taste (often pushed too hard to boost sales, perhaps out of desperation due to declining projections without sufficient testing) by individuals working for Wizards whose personalities may not be ideal or whose opinions may be controversial. Should we expunge every such person from contributing artistically to our multiverse or the real world beyond because they once said something or believe something which we find distasteful or don't agree with? Was what she did truly worthy of a lifetime ban? Couldn't she just be suspended for a year and issue a public apology? Surely there must be a better solution for all parties!
Why should a decision be made to make some players happy when it makes so many other players equally upset?!
I've spend a fortune on this game going way back to 1994, specifically because talented contributors like her were involved.
I never even thought about their politics or cared because those personal opinions were irrelevant to their involvement with the game, which was, and still is the art. Why would I? What am I, a groupie? I couldn't care less about your hobbies, if you like your eggs scrambled or over-easy, if you prefer Fox news over CNN, if you use 2-in-1 or separate shampoo and conditioner, if you're a vegan, religious, Republican, an anti-abortionist, watch porn, or find it offensive! If you're an artist, what I care about most...ALL I care about is your art! And this is true for most who appreciate art as is and understands its place and purpose in the world; alone, or as part of other larger cultural products and phenomenons.
What is it that makes someone an artist?
Why do they express themselves the way they do through their art?
These are the questions that matter most!
Why would anyone care what's written on their blog or Twitter feed?
That's not their product; their art and was never meant as a platform to express themselves artistically.
That's literally their by-product; their rant space for lack of a physical diary
Doesn't anyone here even understand what it means to be an artist?
You know the expression "Everybody $h*ts?"
Why is it occasionally so offensive when someone does?
Because sometimes it smells worse, comes out louder so you heard about it, and sometimes there's money involved?
Isn't that the real truth.
For some, saying stupid things is almost like a bodily function and could be ignored if not dismissed. That doesn't make one complicit.
Should everyone caught at a moment of weakness or inattention be judged so harshly because they let their filter down momentarily and expressed what they might have felt or believed all along regardless but but otherwise held back (dishonestly, in essence as a lie of omission) purely to maintain a facade of political correctness? How do we know Wizards isn't still employing artists who are racist but are simply more composed and keep those personal opinions to themselves? Is that okay of them to be despicable simply because we may not know of it yet? Because they haven't been exposed? Out of sight, out of mind I suppose.
Isn't it better socially and also economically when people can freely express themselves honestly without fear of mob mentality judgement or such serious repercussion?
What Terese Nielsen did was hardly a crime and the truth isn't measured in mass appeal, but by crucifying her this way, by giving in to the courts of public opinion, mark my words... Wizards WILL turn her into a martyr.
Nothing they can do will ever change the fact that she is one of the best artists of all time
They should be kissing the soles of her feet for everything she's given them!
Anyway, some challenging questions to ask yourselves...
Don't you or those who are apparently pleased by this decision even grasp or realize what a huge loss this is for Magic as a whole?
Are you not even the slightest bit saddened by this?
Do you sincerely believe that "she got what she deserved"?!
Don't you care about justice, artistic freedom, and all the wasted potential we'll be missing out on moving forward without her involvement?
I can't even fathom a future without her art being included in our game solely because some virtue-signaling executives in suits who've probably never even played a match or have a true appreciate for art decided that this was somehow justified.
If anyone from Wizards is reading this, please, I beg you to reconsider and reverse this decision at the earliest available opportunity.
Terese, if you're reading this, please apologize, not for having your own opinions, but for expressing them irresponsibly in a way which inadvertently offended people whose viewed and lifestyles may seem unorthodox to you, or whose definitions of things may be more abstract or not be as traditional as yours. Offer to do a trans-character art for free if that will smooth relations. Anything
We need a compromise because excommunication and exiling an artist from the game isn't it!
I would never suggest that Wizards needs consensus from the entire Magic playing community or even from their own employees, but don't the opinions of those who buy their products matter before making a decision of this magnitude?
We're not talking about some random new up-and-coming artist who tweeted something about holocaust denial.
This is someone who is very hard worker, cares deeply about women's rights, cares deeply about her fan base, and was often considered the "guest of honor" at many events she attended!
I'd love to hear from some employees who work at Wizards as I'm confident there are plenty who also disagree with this decision.
Alas, many employees would probably be too afraid to even express an opinion or defense for keeping Terese Nielsen on payroll for fear of being fired themselves, which in itself speaks volumes about an obviously toxic political hierarchical structure within the company which dismisses how employees feel by forcing non-disclosure agreements upon individuals to stifle less popular opinions.
If you had to estimate....What percentage of Magic players even had an issue with Terese Nielsen's politics which upset them so much that it interfered with their ability to enjoy the game? 1%? 3%? 5% at most?...unlikely.
And among those, how many have even been playing or collecting Magic for more than five years?
What was their card spending budget over the years they've played?
The reality is that you could probably count the actual number of people on one hand!
Similarly, the amount of money spent on Magic products by those few complainers and rabble-rousers would likely add up to the petty cash you'd find in a Dollar Store till...But who cares about the tens or hundreds of thousands of other players (more likely millions) who never cared one iota about this or any other artist's personal politics and have funneled millions upon millions of hard-earned dollars into this (perhaps overrated) product (after all, there are plenty of other fun games out there) because many of us loved the game and the art, the only two things which should and really matter.
I'm sorry, I'm very distraught.
Perhaps I just took for granted they would never dismiss her under any circumstances.
I never knew how much I cared about and appreciated this artist before today now that she apparently won't be involved anymore.
This news was devastating and literally ruined my day
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
By who? Nielsen? I don't see what case she'd have, and I'm sure WotC had their legal team check the contract with her to ensure there couldn't be a legal fight on their hands.
What is your assessment of the game's reputation on social media?
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Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
It's the principle of the thing as well. I don't like her politics and world views, and as a result, I can't possibly hope to support her, as a artist or a person. It's not possible to divorce your politics from all other aspects of your life, not in this day and age.
Her "twisted" little heart?
Why do you have to go there?
Name calling? Slander?
Very mature.
I suppose yours is completely devoid of clots, cholesterol, and you've never even stepped on an ant or spread a germ unknowingly.
I wonder...If only we could all read each others minds and memories what beautiful and horrific things we could all dredge up about the people we thought we know best, only to find some dark secrets, fantasies, or opinions which upset or disgust us and force us to re-evaluate those relationships and ourselves for having been so blind to those facts previously. What percentage of society would be employable or forgivable for then?
People should be judged by the actions, not by their thoughts or opinions.
If you think about physically harming someone or even threaten that's your intent, it's not the same as actually doing it.
Sticks and stones used to be all that hurt our bones.
What changed?
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
Do you believe that he would be up for re-election if instead of apologizing he gave a pseudo apology and was seen in blackface the next day? People deserve a second chance. But how many chances do they deserved? After being called out how many more times do you call them out before fulling condemning them?
Correrct me if I'm wrong. She isn't being "punished" for "thinking" something but for "acting". She actively supported groups who actively harm already disenfranchised individuals. Should we not judge people by their actions? Or should we only look at their direct specific actions? Are we not responsible for the people we elect or support?
WotC frequently conducts surveys and market research to pinpoint where the wider fanbase is, do you expect them to democratize their business completely?
Trudeau had sincerely apologized, demonstrated changes in ways he behaved, and committed to doing better. Nielsen, to my knowledge, has not. If she has, anyone can please feel free to correct me, but my understanding was that Nielsen had issued a really weak statement that wasn't even an apology. So the two aren't overly comparable.
I mean, I still don't like Trudeau and I don't think he won reelection because his apology was fully accepted so much as Canadians weren't into Scheer and were scared to risk a vote for "far left" NDP. But that's a whole other rant, I just don't think Nielsen and Trudeau are comparable.
Because that's life? And business? WotC makes decisions every day that will piss off some and delight others. Design choices, artistic directions, story decisions, social media interactions, tourney schedules and rules, bannings, etc.
I can appreciate some emotional hyperbole, though I don't know how much of the fandom have spent a fortune over decades for Terese Nielsen. I get what you're trying to say, I just don't think as many people as you think are going to be shook by this.
You think it's better if there are no consequences?
That I definitely agree with, there is a segment of the population that seems to really want to have something they can say they were discriminated over, Nielsen will make for a great opportunity. I've already seen people on Twitter holding up her sexuality as a rallying cry so they can feel discriminated against by proxy.
1) Is this a huge loss? I mean, a loss (arguably), but a huge loss? No. Nielsen is a great artist, but the game has always had a variety of great artists, and now there's room for more.
2) No. There are bigger things to get me sad at the moment than an artist who acted a fool online, doubled down, and lost a gig.
3) Yes, or at least she faced consequence commensurate with the wrongdoing. I don't make satisfaction from it, but I don't feel she was wronged in any way.
4) I certainly care about justice, that's a decent - if hyperbolic - way of describing what happened to Nielsen. Artistic freedom isn't really a factor here since Nielsen's art wasn't the problem, and she's still free to create art. And not having her involved in the game will impact me 0%, I genuinely don't think there are many people who would honestly be impacted more than 10%. Artists come and go in this game all the time, they don't really rock the fandom. Except perhaps Guay.
Why would that matter?
Perhaps, then, you may need to take a break? I don't think engaging in this conversation is going to calm you down.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||