It is not the fault of Terese Nielsen or of WotC that we won't get further artwork from her on our cards. It's the fault of Outrage Culture. Everyone has to be outraged about something or another, especially on Twitter. Nielsen is entitled to her beliefs and WotC is entitled to make good money decisions. Maybe a bunch of dumb people screaming about things on Twitter has a lot of weight now. I wonder if the world will grow up and grow toughskinned to this sort of thing? Or if the real trials are yet to come.
In other news, Noah Bradley is a total creepy scumbag who apparently goes around giving out sex invitation cards, and his wife is a cuck who supports him, and that's much more upsetting to me than Terese Nielsen liking goofy politics. By all accounts she's a very sweet and kind woman, how many of you have moms or aunts who have weird political or religious beliefs?
1. Noah Bradley has also been let go, so that portion of your argument has sunk
2. The proper term is "cuckquean" (sic). This has been a public service announcement, use this knowledge responsibly (incognito mode)
3. I have relatives with similar views to Nielson. If I had a business, I wouldn't want them representing it. And antisemitism is *****ty, and makes you *****ty if you buy into it. It's a dangerous belief system that has repeatedly led to real world atrocities, but the atrocities come only after antisemitism has taken root in a society and has become tolerated. It always starts off as fringe, and if is dismissed as harmless it eventually becomes tolerated, and once it's tolerated it begins to enter into serious conversation and worms it's way into public life, and by that point the stage is set for atrocities and it is too ingrained in society to fix without great effort (or a an atrocity that shocks observers into intolerance of anti semitism). Personally, I prefer that society stamps it out while it's fringe, that the proper reaction to genuine anti semitism (as opposed to good faith criticism of Israel for it's actions), is for society to hold it in contempt, and that being anti semitic should carry social consequences to put a cost on such views. The government should not ban such speech or beliefs, but people who espouse them should be corrected, and if they persist they should be shunned, and they should expect that companies do not want to associate with anti semites and people do not want to spend time with anti semites and society does not want to hear from antisemites. And I'd argue that goes for any similar ideology, be it white supremacy, Islamic extremism, homophobia, etc.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Suddenly we can infer "ideology" based on who people follow on Twitter. And then we can persecute them for their thoughts. And their supposed thoughts. Except we can't be certain of their thoughts. But that's what the pitchforks of the witch hunt mob are for. You're only as good as the worst thing the account you follow on Twitter has posted, ever!
Suddenly we can infer "ideology" based on who people follow on Twitter. And then we can persecute them for their thoughts. And their supposed thoughts. Except we can't be certain of their thoughts. But that's what the pitchforks of the witch hunt mob are for. You're only as good as the worst thing the account you follow on Twitter has posted, ever!
There was a lot more going on there than just inferences from who she followed on twitter. Sorry man, her views and rhetoric are not healthy and she was held accountable for them as they directly clash with the values of wotc. Same as you would be by your employer. Deleting everything in a ploy to cover it all up doesnt undo it, even if some people clearly fell for that.
There is absolute nothing wrong with her viewpoints.
They are neither illegal, nor problematic.
She has a healthy life, a very well relationship with her wive and she does a great job producing art.
----
If people cannot accept that someone values life, family and an open mind to opinions and believes, then who exactly is the "unhealthy" ?
At this day and age people get hate and real life damages by openly expressing their believes and opinions.
That is in no way different from expressing anything else about yourself.
And if someone speaks out for gay rights or anything else, they should be absolutely aware of that, but sadly rarely are.
(As sadly, people that cut the corner for an ideology dismiss anything else and they just fight for their own agenda)
If people cannot believe in the good in every person, they assume the worst and especially in Twitter posts, some very special individuals will only look out to find enemies, in everything and everyone, just for the sake of destroying peoples lives, and even worse, they celebrate themselves for that and claim the morally superiority, which is absolutely sick, as they hurt and destroy everyone around them, including themselves.
Guess what, the very same people that blame and hurt Terese Nielsen are very often mentally sick, unstable and just want to harm themselves and others.
Such a mindset is the true evil, expressing your believes and opinions is NEVER evil, its your damn right to do that.
And before someone jumps around the corner with : "Its freedom of speech, but not freedom of consequences"
Keep in mind that nobodies life should be destroyed by expressing your opinions.
If you cannot speak out as you risk losing your job, or endure massive financial ruin, or even people actively harassing and attacking you physically, they even translate that hate on your family and everyone around you.
Thats not reasonable consequences, thats straight up terrorism, fueled by the deepest and most evil hatred.
No matter what people claim to fight for, the moment they seek out to destroy and hurt others, you have to question your motives.
If you cannot listen to another person opinion without getting angry, then its a "you" problem.
----
Terese Nielsen is beloved for years.
Removing her in such a vile course of actions is just sick.
WotC has no morals, they just pander to the hate mob and screeching banshees that lure them into destroying their own legacy.
WotC was once a place artists really wanted to work with.
At this point its just a job, so many artists very much despise WotC as a company, their entire agenda and the god awful business practices.
(Magic is the best game, made by one of the worst companies in the world)
----
Maybe we will get a similar story like with (The Rebecca Guay Controversy) , just maybe.
But at the stage WotC is falling down the cliff of the insanity ideology, chances are slim.
to those saying she can have her opinion the way she wants... you are absolutly right
but no one can force wizards to work with people whose opinion they dont share, especially when it is an racist anti-semitic artist.
she can find a trump friendly company to sell her art. and her art is great btw, but from a human or morale point of view, i wouldnt want to work with her either.
... it is not that artists are that rare. so now someone new might get a chance to deploy their work to a greater community.
it is as it is. everyone needs to move on. we, wizards and terese nielson. we all need to adopt to changes in our life
expressing your believes and opinions is NEVER evil, its your damn right to do that.
And before someone jumps around the corner with : "Its freedom of speech, but not freedom of consequences"
Keep in mind that nobodies life should be destroyed by expressing your opinions.
If you cannot speak out as you risk losing your job, or endure massive financial ruin, or even people actively harassing and attacking you physically, they even translate that hate on your family and everyone around you.
Thats not reasonable consequences, thats straight up terrorism, fueled by the deepest and most evil hatred.
Jeez, can you turn it down a notch?
What we have here is a (in numbers: 1) company cutting ties with an artist, not a destruction of someone's life. Wizards has done so in the past - Harold McNeill is an easy example. The only thing that has changed is that Wizards is now putting out official statements about it.
I'm pretty sure an artist with skills on Nielsen's level has no problems finding work elsewhere. As far as I know, there are no indicators of her being driven to financial ruin or being attacked physically. None of this has happened - you're making up things to be mad about. (Yeah yeah, I'm sure there's a tweet by someone, somewhere that could be interpreted as a threat, but how does it go? Ah, yes ... "It's just a message on the internet - grow some thicker skin!")
Maybe we will get a similar story like with (The Rebecca Guay Controversy) , just maybe.
There's no controversy surrounding Rebecca Guay. She just decided on her own terms that she didn't want to work with Wizards anymore (or raised her prices to the point where she's above Wizard's art budget constraints).
"Anti semitism isn't evil, it's just an opinion you should respect. Not wanting to pay for art by anti semites is evil, only insane people would think that way!"
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Man, lots of people showing their true colors now. People against Wizards cutting their ties with her are either people who share the same harmful views that she apparently has, or simply aren't equipped with the emotional intelligence to scrutinize their faves, and subsequently can't handle their faves being scrutinized by anyone else and receiving consequences to match what has been discovered. It's a very childish POV that runs rampant in daily life.
They throw out words (in quotations, much like our current clown in office) that they give so much power to that it completely blocks them from having an actual discourse about actual problems. "cancel culture" "the extreme leftists" "outrage culture." No one even says those things lol, except for the people who say them as a blanket statement to cover up any capability for intelligent examination of the subjects at hand.
Most importantly, her PUBLIC views were ones that agreed with and supported anti-semitic, transphobic, and white supremacist rhetoric. The keyword here is public. Because that's what someone like her is, a leader who has influence. When that influence is used, directly or not, to spread harmful views, the absolute least her employer could do is to end their partnership. And yes, those views, (which no one is arguing that she cannot have, but of course that's what people want to cry about) are harmful. They endanger the lives of people across many different communities. Termination is what she deserves.
It's a no-brainer, (but that explains a lot about... nevermind) if the views and actions of an employee don't match those that the employer embraces and encourages, it's over. The same would happen if Thassa forbid, Wizards was pro-homophobia, pro-racist, pro-white supremacist. They would ax anyone who believes in equality.
It is extremely disappointing that this is the truth, she's my all-time favorite artist for MTG. I have piles of signed cards and art on my walls by her. And I've come to terms with the meaning that those items hold with me are not diminished by this. But I cannot further support her in any fashion until this truth is proven changed.
I applaud wizards for taking a stand against the dangerous rhetoric that she supported. Even now, there are people all over twitter and other social media who are defending the "right" to hate other communities or the "right" to treat others as second-class, who stand in solidarity with antisemitism. There are people defending Noah Bradley, perpetuating the culture of harrassment by men and men in power. It's cringeyyy. And they are OUTRAGED that she was fired, outraged Noah was fired, much like people here are outraged. Who exactly is "outrage culture" about again?
But thankfully, those people, and these people here, are the vocal minority. With every decision of wizards to take their worlds and game more progressive and inclusive, there are floods of support and love for them. Amidst that flood is the vocal minority who are stepping out of the stream to shout at the wind in defense of backwards and harmful views. And guess what direction Wizards and the game is still continuing in? And these hateful individuals continue to give their money to anyway?
"Anti semitism isn't evil, it's just an opinion you should respect. Not wanting to pay for art by anti semites is evil, only insane people would think that way!"
Simplifications like this just drive you more in a corner.
If you call everyone anti semit you dont do the real problems any favor.
True evil is problematic, no matter what and how its delivered, and almost never its just one side to blame, the world is way more complex than that.
Its almost always just the blame game, to avoid any dialog, to avoid actual positive benefits of anything, whoever claims to be on the moral high ground basically never is and that exposes them as a fraud for the purpose they claim to fight for.
And the craziest part of all of it, when people justify all kinds of crimes, violence and absolute hate against people and call themselves the victim.
Thats just pathetic.
Argue against the idea, but dont argue against the person itself.
Show me where Terese did something or said something anti-Semitic. And not where anecdotal reaching didn't infer by association that she is the left's agenda-defining idea of "anti-Semitic."
Show me where Terese did something or said something anti-Semitic. And not where anecdotal reaching didn't infer by association that she is the left's agenda-defining idea of "anti-Semitic."
She liked and retweeted anti semitic rhetoric. That's not association, it's endorsement. Before you get your panties in a bunch, it's not just right wing antisemites she endorsed, but left wing ones to.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
"Anti semitism isn't evil, it's just an opinion you should respect. Not wanting to pay for art by anti semites is evil, only insane people would think that way!"
Simplifications like this just drive you more in a corner.
If you call everyone anti semit you dont do the real problems any favor.
True evil is problematic, no matter what and how its delivered, and almost never its just one side to blame, the world is way more complex than that.
Its almost always just the blame game, to avoid any dialog, to avoid actual positive benefits of anything, whoever claims to be on the moral high ground basically never is and that exposes them as a fraud for the purpose they claim to fight for.
And the craziest part of all of it, when people justify all kinds of crimes, violence and absolute hate against people and call themselves the victim.
Thats just pathetic.
Argue against the idea, but dont argue against the person itself.
I'm sorry, I couldn't understand that over the blaring sound of your hypocrisy. You are so concerned about an artist not getting paid by a private company to make art for them because she endorsed anti semitic rhetoric, anti trans rhetoric, and supports conspiracy theorists that engage in the same. You turn a blind eye to those things, which actually promote violence and have, in the real world, inspired crimes against vulnerable communities, and instead choose to cry about a person who espouses their views losing support over it. Your priorities are completely twisted.
And no, you aren't taking the high road by suggesting that you just want people to engage with the ideas instead of attacking the person. People are engaging with the ideas, they find them toxic and don't want to support people that espouse those ideas.
Nobody is calling for her to be oppressed by the government for her idiotic beliefs. Wizards has determined that her promotion of such radical ideology does not give with the image they want to project. Wizards customers have determined that they do not want to support such a toxic ideology.
America is a free country, you can say whatever you want, and that means that people can crap on you for saying it. Free speech doesn't mean saying whatever you want without being judged for it. If you say stupid crap, people will think you're stupid, and it's your fault for providing them with the evidence.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Nobody is calling for her to be oppressed by the government for her idiotic beliefs. Wizards has determined that her promotion of such radical ideology does not give with the image they want to project. Wizards customers have determined that they do not want to support such a toxic ideology.
Its absolutely not "wizards customers" , just a bunch of twitters screechers, that currently go on a rampage for absolutely everyone.
Its as counter constructive as it could ever be.
Its only a matter of time till it hits something you dare to enjoy, and you will understand, just wait for it.
America is a free country, you can say whatever you want, and that means that people can crap on you for saying it. Free speech doesn't mean saying whatever you want without being judged for it.
At this point the "free" is in a pretty questionable state.
More than ever the screeching mob gets what it wants as authorities just bend over and let it happen.
Pandering to a mob that just wants to see stuff burn is the exact opposite of helpful or constructive.
If you say stupid crap, people will think you're stupid, and it's your fault for providing them with the evidence.
The barrage of supposed insults aside, what makes free speech worth its dime is the means to tell what you think, without the fear to get hit over the head for it.
People like to pretend that "consequences" are appropriate, but in fact, they are absolutely destructive for any argument, as its actively suppressing people from telling others what they actually think, in fear they might react negative , and not just a little bit, literally going overboard and seeking their personal vendetta on that person.
And that is a massive problem.
It undermines the entire point of having free speech.
You either want to know what people think, or you produce a lot of even more extreme terror cells that will explode at some point or another.
Think your way of communication to the end, and see if people actually dare to tell you the truth, or keep lying to your face, and let you only hear what they think is "socially acceptable".
I dont want a world in which lying and pandering is the norm, i want honest human beings than can respect each other, even if they disagree with another person point of view , and leave that argument out of judging that person ; it really comes down to "Fight the idea, not the person".
People that simply cant make that distinction simply fuel the hate train and it will never stop and roll over whoever is standing up to stop it.
Pandering to the mob has no winners, everyone loses.
Nobody is calling for her to be oppressed by the government for her idiotic beliefs. Wizards has determined that her promotion of such radical ideology does not give with the image they want to project. Wizards customers have determined that they do not want to support such a toxic ideology.
Its absolutely not "wizards customers" , just a bunch of twitters screechers, that currently go on a rampage for absolutely everyone.
Its as counter constructive as it could ever be.
Its only a matter of time till it hits something you dare to enjoy, and you will understand, just wait for it.
America is a free country, you can say whatever you want, and that means that people can crap on you for saying it. Free speech doesn't mean saying whatever you want without being judged for it.
At this point the "free" is in a pretty questionable state.
More than ever the screeching mob gets what it wants as authorities just bend over and let it happen.
Pandering to a mob that just wants to see stuff burn is the exact opposite of helpful or constructive.
If you say stupid crap, people will think you're stupid, and it's your fault for providing them with the evidence.
The barrage of supposed insults aside, what makes free speech worth its dime is the means to tell what you think, without the fear to get hit over the head for it.
People like to pretend that "consequences" are appropriate, but in fact, they are absolutely destructive for any argument, as its actively suppressing people from telling others what they actually think, in fear they might react negative , and not just a little bit, literally going overboard and seeking their personal vendetta on that person.
And that is a massive problem.
It undermines the entire point of having free speech.
You either want to know what people think, or you produce a lot of even more extreme terror cells that will explode at some point or another.
Think your way of communication to the end, and see if people actually dare to tell you the truth, or keep lying to your face, and let you only hear what they think is "socially acceptable".
I dont want a world in which lying and pandering is the norm, i want honest human beings than can respect each other, even if they disagree with another person point of view , and leave that argument out of judging that person ; it really comes down to "Fight the idea, not the person".
People that simply cant make that distinction simply fuel the hate train and it will never stop and roll over whoever is standing up to stop it.
Pandering to the mob has no winners, everyone loses.
what are you even talking about? you can't just assume that everyone for this decision aren't wizards customers. i mean, i'm one, so are many other members here who agree that it was right to let her go. everything else, your entire argument, is invalidated by making that assumption.
Suddenly we can infer "ideology" based on who people follow on Twitter. And then we can persecute them for their thoughts. And their supposed thoughts. Except we can't be certain of their thoughts. But that's what the pitchforks of the witch hunt mob are for. You're only as good as the worst thing the account you follow on Twitter has posted, ever!
When the account in question that she liked and gave her endorsement to called for the wholesale gassing of every Jew on the planet, or to kill the "actors" at Sandy Hook, that's definitely something worth judging over.
Suddenly we can infer "ideology" based on who people follow on Twitter. And then we can persecute them for their thoughts. And their supposed thoughts. Except we can't be certain of their thoughts. But that's what the pitchforks of the witch hunt mob are for. You're only as good as the worst thing the account you follow on Twitter has posted, ever!
When the account in question that she liked and gave her endorsement to called for the wholesale gassing of every Jew on the planet, or to kill the "actors" at Sandy Hook, that's definitely something worth judging over.
If you call everyone anti semit you dont do the real problems any favor.
True evil is problematic, no matter what and how its delivered, and almost never its just one side to blame, the world is way more complex than that.
This... is an argument that I have never understood. I really do want to understand, though.
If I want to blame someone who thinks that *Group A* is unintelligent/should be sterilized/should be killed/should be deported and membership in *Group A* isn't based on active choice (or is a religious choice)... what's the other side? What's the conversation to be had?
I doubt that you are saying that that we should be giving equal "screen time" to the people saying "Kill Group A" and those saying "Rights for Group A" so people can work out some sort of "compromise".
Does looking at blame on the other side mean paying attention to societal and individual traumas, economic plight, propagation of misinformation, and lack of mental health that may lead individuals to hold such views, holding a space to view people in a wider context before condemning them as an individual?
Does looking at blame on the other side mean accusing cancel culture of alienating a portion of the population instead of reaching out to them to produce positive change, making these people feel disenfranchised and afraid to engage in the sort of conversations that might possibly change their views?
Does looking at blame on the other side mean more generally pointing out that hating groups that hate is an inherently hypocritical to a certain degree (though I would counter that hating a group based on actions they choose to do is characteristically than hating a group based on who they are)?
Does looking at blame on the other side mean looking at the examples that we have knowingly allowed to slide (including transgressions made by "the good guys" or classic works that survive problematic creators such as "Chinatown") and simply stating that nobody has a right to judge anybody as there is no "moral high ground"?
I can understand feeling anxious about feeling that there are some thoughts that have no safe space for free expression. The zeitgeist of modern culture can be a terrifying thing and if a community decides that severe consequences are deserved for criticizing a specific politician or political policy, that is a terrifying thing. I acknowledge that there is a lot of "gray areas" where specific policies (Alaskan oil rights, circumcision, stop and frisk, etc.) are directly tied to specific groups and discussions become minefields at the best of times.
At the core of these gray areas, however, I feel that there are some conversations that do not deserve to exist. "Should members of group A all be killed?" is not a conversation that needs to exist,even if it is not explicitly illegal. "Members of group A don't belong in this country" is not a starting point for reason or compromise. I can imagine no possible value in giving people a safe place to say "Group A is genetically inferior". Apart from the obvious two reasons (It is legal and censorship is a slippery slope), is there any reason for society to allow these central statements to continue without consequence? Is there any value in allowing that conversation to occur?
Suddenly we can infer "ideology" based on who people follow on Twitter. And then we can persecute them for their thoughts. And their supposed thoughts. Except we can't be certain of their thoughts. But that's what the pitchforks of the witch hunt mob are for. You're only as good as the worst thing the account you follow on Twitter has posted, ever!
When the account in question that she liked and gave her endorsement to called for the wholesale gassing of every Jew on the planet, or to kill the "actors" at Sandy Hook, that's definitely something worth judging over.
So guilty by association. Got it.
When you give your public endorsement to people who espouse these views, yeah, you can be judged on it.
If someone I followed on Twitter turned out to be a child molester or a serial killer, I would slam the hell out of them on Twitter. Make it clear what they did is not okay and unfollow them.
Suddenly we can infer "ideology" based on who people follow on Twitter. And then we can persecute them for their thoughts. And their supposed thoughts. Except we can't be certain of their thoughts. But that's what the pitchforks of the witch hunt mob are for. You're only as good as the worst thing the account you follow on Twitter has posted, ever!
When the account in question that she liked and gave her endorsement to called for the wholesale gassing of every Jew on the planet, or to kill the "actors" at Sandy Hook, that's definitely something worth judging over.
So guilty by association. Got it.
When you give your public endorsement to people who espouse these views, yeah, you can be judged on it.
If someone I followed on Twitter turned out to be a child molester or a serial killer, I would slam the hell out of them on Twitter. Make it clear what they did is not okay and unfollow them.
I’m Lebanese and I can’t even keep count of how often that term has been used in a racist connotation against me since 9/11.
Two years ago I declined a date with a white guy who said “that’s not how we do things here in America, if you want to be a dirty sand N***** go back to your country and take your Jihad with you. I hope Allah sends you to hell”
I’m catholic btw and Allah is the Abrahamic god in general...
So this is ok and not guilty by association (You associating a name of a card with a personal story)
(Which I agree actually is not reaching)
But someone putting a like i.e an endorsement wich is more than Just association is ok. Got it.
So for you it would be ok for someone who works higher up at some company to like a post that said we should eradicate all the Gays. Since "Oh hes not homophobic its just guilt by association" Got it
I’m Lebanese and I can’t even keep count of how often that term has been used in a racist connotation against me since 9/11.
Two years ago I declined a date with a white guy who said “that’s not how we do things here in America, if you want to be a dirty sand N***** go back to your country and take your Jihad with you. I hope Allah sends you to hell”
I’m catholic btw and Allah is the Abrahamic god in general...
So this is ok and not guilty by association (You associating a name of a card with a personal story)
(Which I agree actually is not reaching)
But someone putting a like i.e an endorsement wich is more than Just association is ok. Got it.
So for you it would be ok for someone who works higher up at some company to like a post that said we should eradicate all the Gays. Since "Oh hes not homophobic its just guilt by association" Got it
How are those two points even related at all? Your entire premise and argument are flawed.
Jihad as a word is guilty by association in regards to your story. You associate that card with that word to your story. You say that to argure that its not raching to ban that card because of it. Hence arguing for guilty by association is a thing one should be vary of.
Nielsen liking a post about how Jews secretly running the world, or how the black power movement is the same as the white power movement is association at its bare minimum. In the first case guilt by association (The word to your Story) is justified and in the second case (Nielsen actively liking at the bare minimum ignorant and bigoted twiter posts) somehow is not.
And thats just the bare minimum as in liking something is more akin to endorsment than just association alone.
When you like that they put more burly men or sea creatures in a set doesn't that mean you endorse them doing so?
Furthermore relying on the Guilt by Association Fallacy Argument is weird because arguments with that nature go in the way of
A Supports B and A Supports C Therefore B Supports C (Which is wrong)
When this case is more
A supports B and A Supports C Therefore A Supports B and C
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1. Noah Bradley has also been let go, so that portion of your argument has sunk
2. The proper term is "cuckquean" (sic). This has been a public service announcement, use this knowledge responsibly (incognito mode)
3. I have relatives with similar views to Nielson. If I had a business, I wouldn't want them representing it. And antisemitism is *****ty, and makes you *****ty if you buy into it. It's a dangerous belief system that has repeatedly led to real world atrocities, but the atrocities come only after antisemitism has taken root in a society and has become tolerated. It always starts off as fringe, and if is dismissed as harmless it eventually becomes tolerated, and once it's tolerated it begins to enter into serious conversation and worms it's way into public life, and by that point the stage is set for atrocities and it is too ingrained in society to fix without great effort (or a an atrocity that shocks observers into intolerance of anti semitism). Personally, I prefer that society stamps it out while it's fringe, that the proper reaction to genuine anti semitism (as opposed to good faith criticism of Israel for it's actions), is for society to hold it in contempt, and that being anti semitic should carry social consequences to put a cost on such views. The government should not ban such speech or beliefs, but people who espouse them should be corrected, and if they persist they should be shunned, and they should expect that companies do not want to associate with anti semites and people do not want to spend time with anti semites and society does not want to hear from antisemites. And I'd argue that goes for any similar ideology, be it white supremacy, Islamic extremism, homophobia, etc.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
There was a lot more going on there than just inferences from who she followed on twitter. Sorry man, her views and rhetoric are not healthy and she was held accountable for them as they directly clash with the values of wotc. Same as you would be by your employer. Deleting everything in a ploy to cover it all up doesnt undo it, even if some people clearly fell for that.
They are neither illegal, nor problematic.
She has a healthy life, a very well relationship with her wive and she does a great job producing art.
----
If people cannot accept that someone values life, family and an open mind to opinions and believes, then who exactly is the "unhealthy" ?
At this day and age people get hate and real life damages by openly expressing their believes and opinions.
That is in no way different from expressing anything else about yourself.
And if someone speaks out for gay rights or anything else, they should be absolutely aware of that, but sadly rarely are.
(As sadly, people that cut the corner for an ideology dismiss anything else and they just fight for their own agenda)
If people cannot believe in the good in every person, they assume the worst and especially in Twitter posts, some very special individuals will only look out to find enemies, in everything and everyone, just for the sake of destroying peoples lives, and even worse, they celebrate themselves for that and claim the morally superiority, which is absolutely sick, as they hurt and destroy everyone around them, including themselves.
Guess what, the very same people that blame and hurt Terese Nielsen are very often mentally sick, unstable and just want to harm themselves and others.
Such a mindset is the true evil, expressing your believes and opinions is NEVER evil, its your damn right to do that.
And before someone jumps around the corner with : "Its freedom of speech, but not freedom of consequences"
Keep in mind that nobodies life should be destroyed by expressing your opinions.
If you cannot speak out as you risk losing your job, or endure massive financial ruin, or even people actively harassing and attacking you physically, they even translate that hate on your family and everyone around you.
Thats not reasonable consequences, thats straight up terrorism, fueled by the deepest and most evil hatred.
No matter what people claim to fight for, the moment they seek out to destroy and hurt others, you have to question your motives.
If you cannot listen to another person opinion without getting angry, then its a "you" problem.
----
Terese Nielsen is beloved for years.
Removing her in such a vile course of actions is just sick.
WotC has no morals, they just pander to the hate mob and screeching banshees that lure them into destroying their own legacy.
WotC was once a place artists really wanted to work with.
At this point its just a job, so many artists very much despise WotC as a company, their entire agenda and the god awful business practices.
(Magic is the best game, made by one of the worst companies in the world)
----
Maybe we will get a similar story like with (The Rebecca Guay Controversy) , just maybe.
But at the stage WotC is falling down the cliff of the insanity ideology, chances are slim.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
but no one can force wizards to work with people whose opinion they dont share, especially when it is an racist anti-semitic artist.
she can find a trump friendly company to sell her art. and her art is great btw, but from a human or morale point of view, i wouldnt want to work with her either.
... it is not that artists are that rare. so now someone new might get a chance to deploy their work to a greater community.
it is as it is. everyone needs to move on. we, wizards and terese nielson. we all need to adopt to changes in our life
What we have here is a (in numbers: 1) company cutting ties with an artist, not a destruction of someone's life. Wizards has done so in the past - Harold McNeill is an easy example. The only thing that has changed is that Wizards is now putting out official statements about it.
I'm pretty sure an artist with skills on Nielsen's level has no problems finding work elsewhere. As far as I know, there are no indicators of her being driven to financial ruin or being attacked physically. None of this has happened - you're making up things to be mad about. (Yeah yeah, I'm sure there's a tweet by someone, somewhere that could be interpreted as a threat, but how does it go? Ah, yes ... "It's just a message on the internet - grow some thicker skin!")
There's no controversy surrounding Rebecca Guay. She just decided on her own terms that she didn't want to work with Wizards anymore (or raised her prices to the point where she's above Wizard's art budget constraints).
Hands to the sky
Give a round of applause
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"Anti semitism isn't evil, it's just an opinion you should respect. Not wanting to pay for art by anti semites is evil, only insane people would think that way!"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
They throw out words (in quotations, much like our current clown in office) that they give so much power to that it completely blocks them from having an actual discourse about actual problems. "cancel culture" "the extreme leftists" "outrage culture." No one even says those things lol, except for the people who say them as a blanket statement to cover up any capability for intelligent examination of the subjects at hand.
Most importantly, her PUBLIC views were ones that agreed with and supported anti-semitic, transphobic, and white supremacist rhetoric. The keyword here is public. Because that's what someone like her is, a leader who has influence. When that influence is used, directly or not, to spread harmful views, the absolute least her employer could do is to end their partnership. And yes, those views, (which no one is arguing that she cannot have, but of course that's what people want to cry about) are harmful. They endanger the lives of people across many different communities. Termination is what she deserves.
It's a no-brainer, (but that explains a lot about... nevermind) if the views and actions of an employee don't match those that the employer embraces and encourages, it's over. The same would happen if Thassa forbid, Wizards was pro-homophobia, pro-racist, pro-white supremacist. They would ax anyone who believes in equality.
It is extremely disappointing that this is the truth, she's my all-time favorite artist for MTG. I have piles of signed cards and art on my walls by her. And I've come to terms with the meaning that those items hold with me are not diminished by this. But I cannot further support her in any fashion until this truth is proven changed.
I applaud wizards for taking a stand against the dangerous rhetoric that she supported. Even now, there are people all over twitter and other social media who are defending the "right" to hate other communities or the "right" to treat others as second-class, who stand in solidarity with antisemitism. There are people defending Noah Bradley, perpetuating the culture of harrassment by men and men in power. It's cringeyyy. And they are OUTRAGED that she was fired, outraged Noah was fired, much like people here are outraged. Who exactly is "outrage culture" about again?
But thankfully, those people, and these people here, are the vocal minority. With every decision of wizards to take their worlds and game more progressive and inclusive, there are floods of support and love for them. Amidst that flood is the vocal minority who are stepping out of the stream to shout at the wind in defense of backwards and harmful views. And guess what direction Wizards and the game is still continuing in? And these hateful individuals continue to give their money to anyway?
Simplifications like this just drive you more in a corner.
If you call everyone anti semit you dont do the real problems any favor.
True evil is problematic, no matter what and how its delivered, and almost never its just one side to blame, the world is way more complex than that.
Its almost always just the blame game, to avoid any dialog, to avoid actual positive benefits of anything, whoever claims to be on the moral high ground basically never is and that exposes them as a fraud for the purpose they claim to fight for.
And the craziest part of all of it, when people justify all kinds of crimes, violence and absolute hate against people and call themselves the victim.
Thats just pathetic.
Argue against the idea, but dont argue against the person itself.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
She liked and retweeted anti semitic rhetoric. That's not association, it's endorsement. Before you get your panties in a bunch, it's not just right wing antisemites she endorsed, but left wing ones to.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'm sorry, I couldn't understand that over the blaring sound of your hypocrisy. You are so concerned about an artist not getting paid by a private company to make art for them because she endorsed anti semitic rhetoric, anti trans rhetoric, and supports conspiracy theorists that engage in the same. You turn a blind eye to those things, which actually promote violence and have, in the real world, inspired crimes against vulnerable communities, and instead choose to cry about a person who espouses their views losing support over it. Your priorities are completely twisted.
And no, you aren't taking the high road by suggesting that you just want people to engage with the ideas instead of attacking the person. People are engaging with the ideas, they find them toxic and don't want to support people that espouse those ideas.
Nobody is calling for her to be oppressed by the government for her idiotic beliefs. Wizards has determined that her promotion of such radical ideology does not give with the image they want to project. Wizards customers have determined that they do not want to support such a toxic ideology.
America is a free country, you can say whatever you want, and that means that people can crap on you for saying it. Free speech doesn't mean saying whatever you want without being judged for it. If you say stupid crap, people will think you're stupid, and it's your fault for providing them with the evidence.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Its absolutely not "wizards customers" , just a bunch of twitters screechers, that currently go on a rampage for absolutely everyone.
Its as counter constructive as it could ever be.
Its only a matter of time till it hits something you dare to enjoy, and you will understand, just wait for it.
At this point the "free" is in a pretty questionable state.
More than ever the screeching mob gets what it wants as authorities just bend over and let it happen.
Pandering to a mob that just wants to see stuff burn is the exact opposite of helpful or constructive.
The barrage of supposed insults aside, what makes free speech worth its dime is the means to tell what you think, without the fear to get hit over the head for it.
People like to pretend that "consequences" are appropriate, but in fact, they are absolutely destructive for any argument, as its actively suppressing people from telling others what they actually think, in fear they might react negative , and not just a little bit, literally going overboard and seeking their personal vendetta on that person.
And that is a massive problem.
It undermines the entire point of having free speech.
You either want to know what people think, or you produce a lot of even more extreme terror cells that will explode at some point or another.
Think your way of communication to the end, and see if people actually dare to tell you the truth, or keep lying to your face, and let you only hear what they think is "socially acceptable".
I dont want a world in which lying and pandering is the norm, i want honest human beings than can respect each other, even if they disagree with another person point of view , and leave that argument out of judging that person ; it really comes down to "Fight the idea, not the person".
People that simply cant make that distinction simply fuel the hate train and it will never stop and roll over whoever is standing up to stop it.
Pandering to the mob has no winners, everyone loses.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
what are you even talking about? you can't just assume that everyone for this decision aren't wizards customers. i mean, i'm one, so are many other members here who agree that it was right to let her go. everything else, your entire argument, is invalidated by making that assumption.
When the account in question that she liked and gave her endorsement to called for the wholesale gassing of every Jew on the planet, or to kill the "actors" at Sandy Hook, that's definitely something worth judging over.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
This... is an argument that I have never understood. I really do want to understand, though.
If I want to blame someone who thinks that *Group A* is unintelligent/should be sterilized/should be killed/should be deported and membership in *Group A* isn't based on active choice (or is a religious choice)... what's the other side? What's the conversation to be had?
I can understand feeling anxious about feeling that there are some thoughts that have no safe space for free expression. The zeitgeist of modern culture can be a terrifying thing and if a community decides that severe consequences are deserved for criticizing a specific politician or political policy, that is a terrifying thing. I acknowledge that there is a lot of "gray areas" where specific policies (Alaskan oil rights, circumcision, stop and frisk, etc.) are directly tied to specific groups and discussions become minefields at the best of times.
At the core of these gray areas, however, I feel that there are some conversations that do not deserve to exist. "Should members of group A all be killed?" is not a conversation that needs to exist,even if it is not explicitly illegal. "Members of group A don't belong in this country" is not a starting point for reason or compromise. I can imagine no possible value in giving people a safe place to say "Group A is genetically inferior". Apart from the obvious two reasons (It is legal and censorship is a slippery slope), is there any reason for society to allow these central statements to continue without consequence? Is there any value in allowing that conversation to occur?
When you give your public endorsement to people who espouse these views, yeah, you can be judged on it.
If someone I followed on Twitter turned out to be a child molester or a serial killer, I would slam the hell out of them on Twitter. Make it clear what they did is not okay and unfollow them.
Terese doubled down on their antics.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
So this is ok and not guilty by association (You associating a name of a card with a personal story)
(Which I agree actually is not reaching)
But someone putting a like i.e an endorsement wich is more than Just association is ok. Got it.
So for you it would be ok for someone who works higher up at some company to like a post that said we should eradicate all the Gays. Since "Oh hes not homophobic its just guilt by association" Got it
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Nielsen liking a post about how Jews secretly running the world, or how the black power movement is the same as the white power movement is association at its bare minimum. In the first case guilt by association (The word to your Story) is justified and in the second case (Nielsen actively liking at the bare minimum ignorant and bigoted twiter posts) somehow is not.
And thats just the bare minimum as in liking something is more akin to endorsment than just association alone.
When you like that they put more burly men or sea creatures in a set doesn't that mean you endorse them doing so?
Furthermore relying on the Guilt by Association Fallacy Argument is weird because arguments with that nature go in the way of
A Supports B and A Supports C Therefore B Supports C (Which is wrong)
When this case is more
A supports B and A Supports C Therefore A Supports B and C