It's no secret to my friends that I refuse to use blue cards. I have a bias toward the underdog colors (all of the other colors) and want to be able to play those colors in a constructed setting with a decent chance of winning. I love Magic and enjoy rooting for underdogs. To me, it's boring to see the same predictable outcomes in sports, cards, or otherwise. It's good to see an unlikely hero, etc.
Without flaming too heavily about it, the only frustrating aspect of Magic over the years IMO has been the continual domination of blue with only brief interruptions of other decks/colors.. decks which invariably get nerfed through bans or outrun by the printing of stronger and stronger blue cards. As of August 2015, once again, blue is dominating nearly every single archetype across all formats except vintage aggro and standard aggro. That's 10/12 deck types/formats (and letting it slide that Tolarian Academy and a few blue cards often infiltrate MUD which would make it 11 out of 12). If your response is "just put blue in your deck" - you are not hearing me. That's what everyone says. I just don't want to play blue.
I invite you to take a gander at the current population of top8 decks, and add up the % of top8 decks played in vintage/legacy/modern/standard that feature blue. Usually, blue is the dominant color in all of the decks. In many cases blue is not only the top deck in a category, but also represented very heavily in the next 3 or 4 decks down in that category. Mono-blue is now the most winning modern aggro deck (huh?) despite being heavily outnumbered at tournaments by jund and burn, for example. Also, keep in mind that standard is going to change in a month with BFZ, giving blue a chance to climb back up in that format as well. http://www.mtgtop8.com/
Do you think blue is over-represented in Magic? If so, would you rather see other colors brought up or the banhammer brought down in righteous fury to achieve balance?
I'm very much not a fan of your "10/12" stat. Legacy and Vintage represent a less-balanced time in Magic, and balance between colors isn't a goal of those formats, so referencing them is a bit of a punt. And Blue is traditionally the most control-oriented color, so it stands to reason that it gets the best control decks.
Referring to the Modern and Standard events you've linked;
At GP London, Blue represented 1/3 of one of the top eight decks.
At SCG Open Charlotte, Blue was in three of the top eight decks.
At GP San Diego, again, Blue was in three of the top eight decks.
At Pro Tour Vancouver, Blue was in two of the top eight decks, and I might argue barely at that.
At SCG Open Richmond, once again, Blue is in three of the top eight decks.
Based on these results, I'd argue that Blue is fine right now. That certainly isn't always the case, but hey, Magic evolves.
If your argument is that Eternal formats need balance across colors, you certainly have evidence to back that up. But let's be honest, unless an unprecedented massive overhaul of Legacy and Vintage takes place, Blue is always going to be king there.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
You have a right to your opinion, sir. Tally one for blue dominance being OK in all formats. I don't agree with the idea that blue should be the de facto ultimate control color (why should that be exactly?), but respect your opinion.
The point I was trying to make was that I don't see Blue as dominant in Modern or Standard (Abzan, anybody?), and I think we more or less need to be okay with it dominating Legacy and Vintage.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
You have a right to your opinion, sir. Tally one for blue dominance being OK in all formats. I don't agree with the idea that blue should be the de facto ultimate control color (why should that be exactly?), but respect your opinion.
Going to add "Other - see comment" to the poll.
He is definitely saying that blue dominance is not ok in all formats, mainly because it is not happening. Blue is generally seen as one of the two weakest colors in modern and it has not been dominating standard for a long time. Also blue is basically always the worst color in sealed. If anything BGx has been more dominant across more formats for longer.
I'm very much not a fan of your "10/12" stat. Legacy and Vintage represent a less-balanced time in Magic, and balance between colors isn't a goal of those formats, so referencing them is a bit of a punt. And Blue is traditionally the most control-oriented color, so it stands to reason that it gets the best control decks.
Referring to the Modern and Standard events you've linked;
At GP London, Blue represented 1/3 of one of the top eight decks.
At SCG Open Charlotte, Blue was in three of the top eight decks.
At GP San Diego, again, Blue was in three of the top eight decks.
At Pro Tour Vancouver, Blue was in two of the top eight decks, and I might argue barely at that.
At SCG Open Richmond, once again, Blue is in three of the top eight decks.
Based on these results, I'd argue that Blue is fine right now. That certainly isn't always the case, but hey, Magic evolves.
If your argument is that Eternal formats need balance across colors, you certainly have evidence to back that up. But let's be honest, unless an unprecedented massive overhaul of Legacy and Vintage takes place, Blue is always going to be king there.
You can throw facts at people like this all you want but some people just don't like blue and want to complain about it. I just had a friend argue that spell snare was unfair because it stops something that is more mana and I argued that it is extremely narrow and requires it to be in hand with open mana when you play the spell it stops, how is this more unfair than terminate? And the only thing he could say was "well I would rather you kill my stuff then counter it"
Abzan Standard is a flash in the pan by definition - it's Standard - and will be replaced with a different deck in no time. I give it one month until BFZ comes out. Exactly what I was saying above - the other colors have no staying power and all those Abzan decks are about to plummet in value, either before or after rotation. It's inevitable because the cards are not strong enough for older formats.
Again, respect your opinion and just stating my own.
You gotta keep in mind that it's not often mono-blue. For example, if you have 8 top decks, 3 of which have Blue, you might draw the conclusion that Blue is dominant for it takes a lion's share. But what if the top 8 is this:
UR
WUR
UB
BR
BRG
WBR
RG
WG
Those numbers look different. 3 blue, sure, but also 3 white, 3 black, 6 red and 3 green. Suddenly, blue is one of the 4 average colours, whereas Red is the dominant colour. How does that fit in your calculations?
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
jwf, it sounds like your friend is also put off by not having any options to deal with things like spell snare - unless they also play blue. Obviously, you know from playing spell snare (which is banned in Modern and flat out mean in casual) that blue has a near-monopoly on the all important stack. A black, green, red or white deck has no recourse against your Spell Snare simply because they can't target the creature that they have cast until it resolves, which it won't.
What I'm hearing is that other players don't like blue dominance and blue players like it very much and don't want to hear "complaining".... any other thoughts?
jwf, it sounds like your friend is also put off by not having any options to deal with things like spell snare - unless they also play blue. Obviously, you know from playing spell snare (which is banned in Modern and flat out mean in casual) that blue has a near-monopoly on the all important stack. A black, green, red or white deck has no recourse against your Spell Snare simply because they can't target the creature that they have cast until it resolves, which it won't.
What I'm hearing is that other players don't like blue dominance and blue players like it very much and don't want to hear "complaining".... any other thoughts?
123fosh what are you talking about? Spell snare is not banned in Modern. If you're going to make absurd (and outright false) claims like that it becomes difficult to have a realistic conversation.
Do you also believe white is overpowered because it can prevent red from doing damage? Are enchantress decks overpowered because red cannot kill enchantments? Each color has strengths and weaknesses. You'll need to show some real data to prove that Blue is overpowered/oppressive in magic.
It's also known that newer/poor players tend to not like countermagic versus removal even though people like MaRo have said there is little difference at the end of the day. But counterspells (and discard) feel worse without actually being any more unfair. Similarly you feel like blue is overpowered when in reality, it's pretty much the same as the other colors these days.
jwf, it sounds like your friend is also put off by not having any options to deal with things like spell snare - unless they also play blue. Obviously, you know from playing spell snare (which is banned in Modern and flat out mean in casual) that blue has a near-monopoly on the all important stack. A black, green, red or white deck has no recourse against your Spell Snare simply because they can't target the creature that they have cast until it resolves, which it won't.
What I'm hearing is that other players don't like blue dominance and blue players like it very much and don't want to hear "complaining".... any other thoughts?
123fosh what are you talking about? Spell snare is not banned in Modern. If you're going to make absurd (and outright false) claims like that it becomes difficult to have a realistic conversation.
Do you also believe white is overpowered because it can prevent red from doing damage? Are enchantress decks overpowered because red cannot kill enchantments? Each color has strengths and weaknesses. You'll need to show some real data to prove that Blue is overpowered/oppressive in magic.
It's also known that newer/poor players tend to not like countermagic versus removal even though people like MaRo have said there is little difference at the end of the day. But counterspells (and discard) feel worse without actually being any more unfair. Similarly you feel like blue is overpowered when in reality, it's pretty much the same as the other colors these days.
Blue is always going to be better in Legacy/Vintage unless they make some horrendously sweeping bannings. And I'm pretty okay with that - I miss the old times where blue was the outright best and the gameplay it creates. This is not however representative of modern design at all.
But as mentioned, Modern has blue as one of the lesser colours. And Standard is more dominated by red or green than by blue. As mentioned by Jivan, colours have limitations and upsides. Is it fair that my white deck can't have the reach of a red deck to kill an opponent after my 1-drops got stymied? Is it fair that the red deck is kold to enchantments? In the grand scheme of things, yes. Just like it's fair that blue can deal with things better on the stack. In fact, blue's bonus is likely more fair than red's disability, since you can play around counters but after deck construction, you can't really play around an unremovable enchantment. Colours are inherently different and sometimes those benefits and handicaps will cause an imbalance in what's played (see: Legacy), but that doesn't mean things are unfair. This of course gets more amusing when when we tie it back to how your assertion is provably false for Standard and Modern.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
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ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
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It's also known that newer/poor players tend to not like countermagic versus removal even though people like MaRo have said there is little difference at the end of the day. But counterspells (and discard) feel worse without actually being any more unfair. Similarly you feel like blue is overpowered when in reality, it's pretty much the same as the other colors these days.
Yeah him saying Spell snare is banned in modern makes him really hard to take seriously. I think it is exactly like you said; a bad or a new player upset with counters.
It's also known that newer/poor players tend to not like countermagic versus removal even though people like MaRo have said there is little difference at the end of the day. But counterspells (and discard) feel worse without actually being any more unfair. Similarly you feel like blue is overpowered when in reality, it's pretty much the same as the other colors these days.
Yeah him saying Spell snare is banned in modern makes him really hard to take seriously. I think it is exactly like you said; a bad or a new player upset with counters.
</blockquote>
To be fair he said he was thinking about a different card, which is fair. Although I would expect a bit more care from people when they are trying to create an argument.
Lou, I see your point but you've only posited a theoretical or 1-tournament top 8 from who knows where. Jivan, I hear you too but the evidence is aggregated for everyone to see on mtgtop8. The most often winning decks in almost every archetype include heavy blue splash or uses blue in the combo (show and tell, exarch). Control is de facto owned by blue. Now, modern aggro is shifting to mono-blue which isn't really new, merfolk are simply back after an ebb in popularity. The reason merfolk are strong anyway is because they are a killer tribe and aether vial is strong against countermagic. Aether vial is strong no matter how you slice it but.. not to digress.. Notwithstanding the "other-color crusher" which is spreading seas and "now I own combat too" with vapor snag. It's really just blue, artifacts, and splashes of other colors no matter where you look except standard aggro which will rotate pronto and could easily swing blue in a month as well.
To the point about drafts, drafts are not constructed formats. No one posts aggregated draft results (to my knowledge) and so it can't be proven any which way. Drafts are a completely different beast than constructed. But if you want to talk about other formats, let's talk about Zur in EDH. If you want to go there.
Finally, jivan you must be kidding about counterspells. Also, briefly, I am not talking about discard - you are. It is not too powerful, and neither is black. Back to blue... I'm not even singling out counterspells, although I would posit that there is almost always nothing that other colors can do about them. Passing turn and saving mana for counterspells is not an advanced startegy - it is an obvious strategy that blue players congratulate themselves for. Consider that the logical burden on someone playing against counterspells is much more difficult. Do you play, or not? Therein lies the problem, both options are terrible. The only way to avoid a known or suspected counterspell by a non-blue player is to do nothing on their turn, in which case both players just did nothing on consecutive turns except draw a card. As everyone knows, this can then be followed at the end step by the blue player casting ponder, thought scour, etc. So a blue player often loses very little even if the opponent plays around a counterspell, just one more turn toward control hell. This is one of many ways in which the game mechanics favor blue.
Now, if other cards existed that upset this simple disruption strategy, there would be the opportunity for more advanced play. For example, if player 1 casts a spell and player 2 counters it, what are the only possible responses that can happen? Another counterspell? Maybe a clever graveyard trick? Option 1 here is only usable by other colors in the form of REB, pyroblast, dash hopes, a few others. Talking about restrictions, those spells are far more restrictive and less reliable than spell snare. LOL! So, it's on to maybe doing a graveyard trick and the other colors are already grasping for straws.
But anyway... it's not just counterspells. It's also card advantage, combo and now aggro too, like I'm saying.
Your claims that the "only way to avoid a known or suspected counterspell is to do nothing on their turn" is completely false. Your claims about blue in standings are also false. This thread reads like nothing more that irrational hate for a color that and that is frankly sad.
I mention discard in relation to counterspells as players hate both of them. Again, they feel bad. Power is irrelevant in both cases.
Your entire argument hinges on blue being oppressive in all formats. I've yet to see it beyond Legacy and Vintage which are from a different age of magic. Even considering them, mono-U tends to be a rarity so you must consider the interactions between colors. Blue facilitates a lot of other unfair things greater than it can do alone.
Mentioning EDH at all is also silly. It's not a competitive format unless you are talking about Duel Commander, where Zur is banned.
ponder is a sorcery so you cannot hold up mana and do it at end of turn.
There are lots of things you can do against counterspells, play something that can't be countered like abrupt decay or play something that has cascade or just play two spells and save the more important one for second. Counterspells on the draw are pretty terrible in modern and standard. If I am holding mana leak hoping to stop a key spell it is very possible burn has already killed me before it matters at all.
Just look at the latest modern tournament under the decks section on star city. Blue is tied with white for the least played color among the top 8 which pretty much falls exactly in with what I said. It and white are the two worst colors in modern. Merfolk barely counts as blue since it plays pretty much none of the same spells other blue decks in the format play.
blue is also pretty terrible in edh since countering spells is inefficient and it lacks good removal. Sure there are some mono blue combo edh decks but EDH is such a volatile format you can make basically anything you really want to work.
Draft and sealed are different beasts for sure but I think it speaks a lot about blues card quality when blue is consistently among the worst colors in those formats.
What counter magic even gets played in Modern? Other than Remand and Cryptic I can't think of any...all the others suck.
I'm not even singling out counterspells, although I would posit that there is almost always nothing that other colors can do about them.
What can most colors even do about most removal anyways? There's a few limited things in some colors (white and green maybe) but if red has a creature thats targeted by abrupt decay then that creature is going to the bin and red can't really do ***** about it. They don't even need to have abrupt decay and open mana when the spell is played either. Counterspells have inherent downsides to them that nobody ever acknowledges when they spew on and on about how "over powered" they are.
So a blue player often loses very little even if the opponent plays around a counterspell, just one more turn toward control hell. This is one of many ways in which the game mechanics favor blue.
I really pity all those poor, poor Modern aggro decks, having to play around blue's oppressive control decks and counterspells.
Now, if other cards existed that upset this simple disruption strategy, there would be the opportunity for more advanced play. For example, if player 1 casts a spell and player 2 counters it, what are the only possible responses that can happen? Another counterspell? Maybe a clever graveyard trick? Option 1 here is only usable by other colors in the form of REB, pyroblast, dash hopes, a few others. Talking about restrictions, those spells are far more restrictive and less reliable than spell snare. LOL! So, it's on to maybe doing a graveyard trick and the other colors are already grasping for straws.
They can play more than one thing a turn and then kill the blue player with whatever creature they played. Because the blue player can't draw a bunch of cards, counter all your spells, and deal with all of your permanents on the board (major blue weakness) in the same turn.
Mentioning EDH at all is also silly. It's not a competitive format unless you are talking about Duel Commander, where Zur is banned.
Blue is hardly the best color there either. I'd say it's given stiff competition from Green and Black, and one of the reasons it's so strong is because it has access too all it's busted cards from the early stages of the game.
LOL screw it. I always hear the same thing. Players that use blue mana in their deck telling stories about how they cleverly beat someone when there are scant few game mechanics that allow their opponent to actually respond to their plays. How to respond to the simple act of your opponent passing turn and leaving mana open... The onus of strategy is actually placed on the opponent, not the blue player. Blue players, like clockwork, just sit on mana like a toad and take whatever flies into their mouths with an enormously high rate of success, calling themselves geniuses for waiting for the windows in which to use their cards. You see, that strategy is incredibly predictable, but there are too few punishing mechanics or cards that can be used against it.
Blue players routinely discredit players like myself (see above) or cover their eyes/ears and pretend that blue spells aren't in the vast majority of winning decks. "There is no problem here." In reality the opponent simply has few options (that don;t go along with their game plan) even if they correctly guess or know the blue player's grip. Blue players avoid the issue that I am talking about which is that almost every category of topdeck has the same old blue spells in abundance, because the mechanic has been dominant for over 20 years. Over time, blue gets stronger creatures and the best pw, delve, snapcaster (and thus graveyard has gone to blue as well). The decks are still in abundance because their dominance continues to be accepted and wotc doesn't print new cards that are better than those cards.
I challenge Maro and co to grow a pair and change some of these tired interactions. To many players, Magic is a game about beating other players by "outwitting" them. But just take a look at the top decks to see what "outwitting" someone really means - in older formats it means collecting the same old cards that were out all along. In new formats, it means using less powerful versions of the same spells (or exactly the same spells). Even in the lit, it's just one story after the next about Jace saving the day from inept, naive planeswalkers of various different backgrounds.
Thanks for reading. I hope someone hears me but... I think this is pointless.
As of August 2015, once again, blue is dominating nearly every single archetype across all formats except vintage aggro and standard aggro. That's 10/12 deck types/formats (and letting it slide that Tolarian Academy and a few blue cards often infiltrate MUD which would make it 11 out of 12).
Blue WAS overpowered. This means legacy and vintage will always, always have blue dominant unless you start banning cards. What, you're going to create ancestral recall/time walk level cards in other colors?
Blue dominance is also a _Requirement_, so you're not getting away with banning blue cards. Force of Will is the glue that holds the format(s) together. Removing viable blue cards from the format will quickly turn the eternal formats into a combo fest, necessitating even more bannings.
And for the most part, people who play eternal don't mind much. People who play eternal like the power plays. If the broken plays don't turn them off from it, cetainly one color being more broken than the others isn't.
EDH, being allowed to take cards from the older sets, same deal.
Modern and Standard? They change from time to time.
I don't know anywhere near enough about constructed magic at this point to opine on your premise regarding blue decks being over-representative of the best decks in magic, but some food for thought -
Decks that play spells are over-representative of the best decks in magic
Decks that play lands are over-representative of the best decks in magic
Not trying to troll, but really, when you're talking about "the best" you are naturally going to have to accept a number of restrictions w/respect to deck building/choice. A lot of these restrictions are things that the average person will accept w/o even really even questioning.
I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that you'll accept the above two things as reasonable restrictions to which you're typically bound when selecting a deck in "format/metagame x." If it's acceptable to accept these two restrictions when it comes to deck choice, why isn't it acceptable for you always to play the blue deck?
The answer undoubtedly is going to be some form of personal preference on your part. You are fine with "restriction x," but "restriction y" sucks, or whatever (for some entirely arbitrary reason, and hey nothing wrong with that, I am not trying to be the judge of what some random dude on the internet thinks is "fun" or "not fun," this is up to you pal).
That's fine that you aren't willing to accept certain restriction on deck building when it comes to competitive, constructed magic. Maybe Magic isn't for you?
As a non-blue player I find OP's stance on blue ridiculous. It's not overpowered. It's slow and can be more predictable compared to the other colors. Just like how you can bait your opponents to play spells in any other color, you can do the same with counters.
I'm getting really tired of bad players complaining about an aspect of the game they don't like, in the face of ample evidence that it isn't a problem. 123's arguments are so terrible, and his stubbornness in face of refutation so pigheaded, it has crossed the line into outright trolling. Asking mods to lock this thread.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Every bit of evidence that has been presented he has ignored and just continued on with the completely unbacked claim that "blue is too good!" In legacy that is pretty obvious, just don't play legacy then. The printing of cards like voice of resurgence and abrupt decay is exactly what 123 is challenging maro and co to do but they have already showed the willingness to do it.
As blue player, the colors strength in Vintage and Legacy have been solidified over time. Blue is one of the weakest colors in standard, it's position as a control color is currently moot as Abzan has taken that mantle. Counters can be played around, and unlike most colors Blue's current creature base is awful.
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
Without flaming too heavily about it, the only frustrating aspect of Magic over the years IMO has been the continual domination of blue with only brief interruptions of other decks/colors.. decks which invariably get nerfed through bans or outrun by the printing of stronger and stronger blue cards. As of August 2015, once again, blue is dominating nearly every single archetype across all formats except vintage aggro and standard aggro. That's 10/12 deck types/formats (and letting it slide that Tolarian Academy and a few blue cards often infiltrate MUD which would make it 11 out of 12). If your response is "just put blue in your deck" - you are not hearing me. That's what everyone says. I just don't want to play blue.
I invite you to take a gander at the current population of top8 decks, and add up the % of top8 decks played in vintage/legacy/modern/standard that feature blue. Usually, blue is the dominant color in all of the decks. In many cases blue is not only the top deck in a category, but also represented very heavily in the next 3 or 4 decks down in that category. Mono-blue is now the most winning modern aggro deck (huh?) despite being heavily outnumbered at tournaments by jund and burn, for example. Also, keep in mind that standard is going to change in a month with BFZ, giving blue a chance to climb back up in that format as well. http://www.mtgtop8.com/
Do you think blue is over-represented in Magic? If so, would you rather see other colors brought up or the banhammer brought down in righteous fury to achieve balance?
Referring to the Modern and Standard events you've linked;
At GP London, Blue represented 1/3 of one of the top eight decks.
At SCG Open Charlotte, Blue was in three of the top eight decks.
At GP San Diego, again, Blue was in three of the top eight decks.
At Pro Tour Vancouver, Blue was in two of the top eight decks, and I might argue barely at that.
At SCG Open Richmond, once again, Blue is in three of the top eight decks.
Based on these results, I'd argue that Blue is fine right now. That certainly isn't always the case, but hey, Magic evolves.
If your argument is that Eternal formats need balance across colors, you certainly have evidence to back that up. But let's be honest, unless an unprecedented massive overhaul of Legacy and Vintage takes place, Blue is always going to be king there.
Going to add "Other - see comment" to the poll.
The point I was trying to make was that I don't see Blue as dominant in Modern or Standard (Abzan, anybody?), and I think we more or less need to be okay with it dominating Legacy and Vintage.
He is definitely saying that blue dominance is not ok in all formats, mainly because it is not happening. Blue is generally seen as one of the two weakest colors in modern and it has not been dominating standard for a long time. Also blue is basically always the worst color in sealed. If anything BGx has been more dominant across more formats for longer.
You can throw facts at people like this all you want but some people just don't like blue and want to complain about it. I just had a friend argue that spell snare was unfair because it stops something that is more mana and I argued that it is extremely narrow and requires it to be in hand with open mana when you play the spell it stops, how is this more unfair than terminate? And the only thing he could say was "well I would rather you kill my stuff then counter it"
Again, respect your opinion and just stating my own.
Anyone else want to weigh in with their thoughts?
UR
WUR
UB
BR
BRG
WBR
RG
WG
Those numbers look different. 3 blue, sure, but also 3 white, 3 black, 6 red and 3 green. Suddenly, blue is one of the 4 average colours, whereas Red is the dominant colour. How does that fit in your calculations?
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
What I'm hearing is that other players don't like blue dominance and blue players like it very much and don't want to hear "complaining".... any other thoughts?
123fosh what are you talking about? Spell snare is not banned in Modern. If you're going to make absurd (and outright false) claims like that it becomes difficult to have a realistic conversation.
Do you also believe white is overpowered because it can prevent red from doing damage? Are enchantress decks overpowered because red cannot kill enchantments? Each color has strengths and weaknesses. You'll need to show some real data to prove that Blue is overpowered/oppressive in magic.
It's also known that newer/poor players tend to not like countermagic versus removal even though people like MaRo have said there is little difference at the end of the day. But counterspells (and discard) feel worse without actually being any more unfair. Similarly you feel like blue is overpowered when in reality, it's pretty much the same as the other colors these days.
My bad, I was thinking of Mental Misstep.
But as mentioned, Modern has blue as one of the lesser colours. And Standard is more dominated by red or green than by blue. As mentioned by Jivan, colours have limitations and upsides. Is it fair that my white deck can't have the reach of a red deck to kill an opponent after my 1-drops got stymied? Is it fair that the red deck is kold to enchantments? In the grand scheme of things, yes. Just like it's fair that blue can deal with things better on the stack. In fact, blue's bonus is likely more fair than red's disability, since you can play around counters but after deck construction, you can't really play around an unremovable enchantment. Colours are inherently different and sometimes those benefits and handicaps will cause an imbalance in what's played (see: Legacy), but that doesn't mean things are unfair. This of course gets more amusing when when we tie it back to how your assertion is provably false for Standard and Modern.
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Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
Yeah him saying Spell snare is banned in modern makes him really hard to take seriously. I think it is exactly like you said; a bad or a new player upset with counters.
To be fair he said he was thinking about a different card, which is fair. Although I would expect a bit more care from people when they are trying to create an argument.
To the point about drafts, drafts are not constructed formats. No one posts aggregated draft results (to my knowledge) and so it can't be proven any which way. Drafts are a completely different beast than constructed. But if you want to talk about other formats, let's talk about Zur in EDH. If you want to go there.
Finally, jivan you must be kidding about counterspells. Also, briefly, I am not talking about discard - you are. It is not too powerful, and neither is black. Back to blue... I'm not even singling out counterspells, although I would posit that there is almost always nothing that other colors can do about them. Passing turn and saving mana for counterspells is not an advanced startegy - it is an obvious strategy that blue players congratulate themselves for. Consider that the logical burden on someone playing against counterspells is much more difficult. Do you play, or not? Therein lies the problem, both options are terrible. The only way to avoid a known or suspected counterspell by a non-blue player is to do nothing on their turn, in which case both players just did nothing on consecutive turns except draw a card. As everyone knows, this can then be followed at the end step by the blue player casting ponder, thought scour, etc. So a blue player often loses very little even if the opponent plays around a counterspell, just one more turn toward control hell. This is one of many ways in which the game mechanics favor blue.
Now, if other cards existed that upset this simple disruption strategy, there would be the opportunity for more advanced play. For example, if player 1 casts a spell and player 2 counters it, what are the only possible responses that can happen? Another counterspell? Maybe a clever graveyard trick? Option 1 here is only usable by other colors in the form of REB, pyroblast, dash hopes, a few others. Talking about restrictions, those spells are far more restrictive and less reliable than spell snare. LOL! So, it's on to maybe doing a graveyard trick and the other colors are already grasping for straws.
But anyway... it's not just counterspells. It's also card advantage, combo and now aggro too, like I'm saying.
I mention discard in relation to counterspells as players hate both of them. Again, they feel bad. Power is irrelevant in both cases.
Your entire argument hinges on blue being oppressive in all formats. I've yet to see it beyond Legacy and Vintage which are from a different age of magic. Even considering them, mono-U tends to be a rarity so you must consider the interactions between colors. Blue facilitates a lot of other unfair things greater than it can do alone.
Mentioning EDH at all is also silly. It's not a competitive format unless you are talking about Duel Commander, where Zur is banned.
Edited because I'm an idiot.
There are lots of things you can do against counterspells, play something that can't be countered like abrupt decay or play something that has cascade or just play two spells and save the more important one for second. Counterspells on the draw are pretty terrible in modern and standard. If I am holding mana leak hoping to stop a key spell it is very possible burn has already killed me before it matters at all.
Just look at the latest modern tournament under the decks section on star city. Blue is tied with white for the least played color among the top 8 which pretty much falls exactly in with what I said. It and white are the two worst colors in modern. Merfolk barely counts as blue since it plays pretty much none of the same spells other blue decks in the format play.
blue is also pretty terrible in edh since countering spells is inefficient and it lacks good removal. Sure there are some mono blue combo edh decks but EDH is such a volatile format you can make basically anything you really want to work.
Draft and sealed are different beasts for sure but I think it speaks a lot about blues card quality when blue is consistently among the worst colors in those formats.
What counter magic even gets played in Modern? Other than Remand and Cryptic I can't think of any...all the others suck.
What can most colors even do about most removal anyways? There's a few limited things in some colors (white and green maybe) but if red has a creature thats targeted by abrupt decay then that creature is going to the bin and red can't really do ***** about it. They don't even need to have abrupt decay and open mana when the spell is played either. Counterspells have inherent downsides to them that nobody ever acknowledges when they spew on and on about how "over powered" they are.
I really pity all those poor, poor Modern aggro decks, having to play around blue's oppressive control decks and counterspells.
They can play more than one thing a turn and then kill the blue player with whatever creature they played. Because the blue player can't draw a bunch of cards, counter all your spells, and deal with all of your permanents on the board (major blue weakness) in the same turn.
Blue is hardly the best color there either. I'd say it's given stiff competition from Green and Black, and one of the reasons it's so strong is because it has access too all it's busted cards from the early stages of the game.
Blue players routinely discredit players like myself (see above) or cover their eyes/ears and pretend that blue spells aren't in the vast majority of winning decks. "There is no problem here." In reality the opponent simply has few options (that don;t go along with their game plan) even if they correctly guess or know the blue player's grip. Blue players avoid the issue that I am talking about which is that almost every category of topdeck has the same old blue spells in abundance, because the mechanic has been dominant for over 20 years. Over time, blue gets stronger creatures and the best pw, delve, snapcaster (and thus graveyard has gone to blue as well). The decks are still in abundance because their dominance continues to be accepted and wotc doesn't print new cards that are better than those cards.
I challenge Maro and co to grow a pair and change some of these tired interactions. To many players, Magic is a game about beating other players by "outwitting" them. But just take a look at the top decks to see what "outwitting" someone really means - in older formats it means collecting the same old cards that were out all along. In new formats, it means using less powerful versions of the same spells (or exactly the same spells). Even in the lit, it's just one story after the next about Jace saving the day from inept, naive planeswalkers of various different backgrounds.
Thanks for reading. I hope someone hears me but... I think this is pointless.
Blue WAS overpowered. This means legacy and vintage will always, always have blue dominant unless you start banning cards. What, you're going to create ancestral recall/time walk level cards in other colors?
Blue dominance is also a _Requirement_, so you're not getting away with banning blue cards. Force of Will is the glue that holds the format(s) together. Removing viable blue cards from the format will quickly turn the eternal formats into a combo fest, necessitating even more bannings.
And for the most part, people who play eternal don't mind much. People who play eternal like the power plays. If the broken plays don't turn them off from it, cetainly one color being more broken than the others isn't.
EDH, being allowed to take cards from the older sets, same deal.
Modern and Standard? They change from time to time.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Decks that play spells are over-representative of the best decks in magic
Decks that play lands are over-representative of the best decks in magic
Not trying to troll, but really, when you're talking about "the best" you are naturally going to have to accept a number of restrictions w/respect to deck building/choice. A lot of these restrictions are things that the average person will accept w/o even really even questioning.
I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that you'll accept the above two things as reasonable restrictions to which you're typically bound when selecting a deck in "format/metagame x." If it's acceptable to accept these two restrictions when it comes to deck choice, why isn't it acceptable for you always to play the blue deck?
The answer undoubtedly is going to be some form of personal preference on your part. You are fine with "restriction x," but "restriction y" sucks, or whatever (for some entirely arbitrary reason, and hey nothing wrong with that, I am not trying to be the judge of what some random dude on the internet thinks is "fun" or "not fun," this is up to you pal).
That's fine that you aren't willing to accept certain restriction on deck building when it comes to competitive, constructed magic. Maybe Magic isn't for you?
I hear checkers is a lot of fun.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn