I want to know what is your opinion on theme decks, intro packs, and planeswalker decks at the time when you were a brand new player. As someone who really wished that WOTC just brought back Theme Decks, and hated it when they decided to replace Intro Packs with Planeswalker Decks, and hated it even more when they announced that Planeswalker decks are being replaced by Commander Decks, did you find that Theme Decks, Intro packs, and/or Planeswalker Decks were bad and not worth the purchase because you played with it, and find that you didn't like it, or did you find that it wasn't worth buying Theme Decks, Intro Packs, and/or Planeswalker Decks because someone else told you not to buy them?
I bought so many Theme Decks, Intro Packs, and Planeswalker Decks because they are simple, cheap, and allows me to sample all the themes and mechanics of the set, although Planeswalker Decks do not do that as they have 2 instead of 4 or 5 per set, and thus only half the themes and mechanics of the set. I am not looking for a competitive product, and I am not looking to make the money back from my purchase. Do any of you say any MTG product is a bad one just because you can't sell the singles and make a profit, or because you get whooped at FNM? Is there anyone here who actually likes a MTG product without thinking about value and competitiveness?
How many of you played the Magic Online free demo, where, at the time, they had the 5 core set intro packs, and all you could do was play against random strangers who also used one of these 5 core set intro packs? When you were a new player, did any of you enjoy playing Intro Pack vs Intro Pack?
Here is why I really hate their decision to replace the Planeswalker Decks with Commander Decks. Imagine this scenario:
Kid walks into LGS.
Clerk: Hey Kid, what do you want to buy?
Kid: I'm looking for a job.
Clerk: Aren't you too young to get a job?
Kid: I can sort cards and stock shelves.
Clerk: Shouldn't you be playing Commander or something?
Kid: Yeah, that's what I was trying to do.
If you haven't noticed, LGS's sell Planeswalker Decks in the $10 to $20 range. I don't know about you, but a set of 5 Ikoria Commander Decks sell for over $200. I know that Gavin said that WOTC made this change because "everyone was playing Commander", and that new players would want to play what everyone else is playing, but that don't mean anything if each Commander Deck costs $50, at least in Canada, and in case you haven't noticed, that scenario above was based on a commercial from Canada.
What WOTC really should have done was brought back Intro Packs, except keep the rarities of the Planeswalker Decks. Instead of the Intro Packs having 2 rares in them, they would have 1 mythic and 4 rares. The Mythic, which is no longer a Planeswalker, would be exclusive to the deck. 2 of the 4 rares are drawn from the set that it is associated with while the other 2 rares are 2 copies of a rare exclusive to the deck. There would be 3 copies of an exclusive uncommon and 4 copies of an exclusive common, much like what the Planeswalker Decks did with their exclusive cards. Each expansion set would have 4 Intro Packs, while Core Sets would have 5.
The Intro Packs would include a code card that redeems the exact deck in MTG Arena. In MTG Arena, a new format would be created where the only decks that are legal are Intro Packs. When I redeemed a Planeswalker Deck on MTG Arena, I could edit it, but with Intro Packs, you can't edit it. You can, however, make a copy of the deck and edit the copy. This is to prevent anyone from losing the Intro Pack decklist that would be used to play in the Intro Pack format.
I really believe that Intro Packs will sell more if they were tied to MTG Arena. I'm not saying that having Ikoria Commander is a bad thing, it is the act of replacing the Planeswalker Deck that is the bad thing. Heck, going from the 5 choices Intro Pack to the 2 choices Planeswalker Deck was already bad, but now instead of having the option to explore Ikoria via preconstructed decks by playing the regular rules, you have no choice but to shell out $230 for a set of 5 Commander Decks, just to explore the themes and mechanics of Ikoria by playing Commander. I view Ikoria Commander to be kind of like what the Eldraine Brawl Decks were, so they essentially discontinued the cheap set associated preconstructed deck option, rather than giving new players a cheap precon deck option that could be played on MTG Arena. What's worse is that MTG Arena doesn't support Commander, and unlike Planeswalker Decks, these set associated Commander Decks can't simply be brought into MTG Arena. Imagine trying to sample the Themes and Mechanics of Ikoria or Zendikar Rising on MTG Arena, but you can't because their preconstructed decks are Commander, and MTG Arena doesn't support Commander. Yeah sure, MTG Arena could technically have a set of 4 or 5 decks that samples the themes and mecahnics of Ikoria, but it would be more fun if there was a physical copy too, for those who want to experience the Intro Pack vs Intro Pack battle with physical cards.
I think in my whole life as Magic Player I've only bought like 4 different set associated 60Card precons and none of those were to play precons vs. precons. That may have been due to how I got into Magic which was Playing with a friends deck and ultimately building a deck from his cards and buying it off of him.
I personally never found any appeal in the 60card set associated precons mainly because the Limiting Cardpool since most of the cards have to come from the same set, and also that they spread the decks thinly so you only get a one of card that works really well with the core mechanic and like 4 different one offs of cards that have litte to no conection to the decks theme instead of multiples of the cards that kinda make the deck. That always lead me even with the limited amount of precons I bought either not play them or like changing out more than 50% of the cards before even playing.
I do remember the time when I didn't have an MTGO account yet and playing the trial but I found for me It became really boring after a couple of games. I mean I do like the "board game appeal" but I personally don't think Setprecons is the way to go for that as even just casually those are pretty underwhelming and don't show of what magic has to offer.
For reference I think I bought an UB Precon from one of the OG Mirrodin sets, The UB from Coldsnap, The rats deck which had jitte in it and The izzet deck and the most recent being the Izzet intro pack from return to ravnica. There might have been more but thats the ones I remember.
In comparison I've bought at least one of the commander precons most of the time because the issues I have with set60 card precons are not really there. However I personally don't like the Commander Set Precons that much especially when they tie it to a set mechanic that mostly synergizes with itself as it has the same limitations the set 60 card precons have.
Casually I play both Commander,Limited and "Regular" mostly Multiplayer with a 1-on-1 here and there, and I play Competetive. For bias clarity
Price tag wise, a commander deck is a pretty decent investment for a new player.
It provides a bunch of different cards and enough room to get an idea how a theme of the deck is working and is enjoyable for that person.
Then they can slowly build it up with better cards.
If a bunch of people do that it works very well.
----
Stores in my area did before the virus special tournament "leagues" (over weeks) where people buy a deck, either Planeswalker and/or Commander decks, whatever is new, and then they allow you to add booster packs and tweak the deck with them, kinda like a Sealed Pool over time.
People that buy into these leagues get promos and if they play 10 different people that are also in the league over the time, they get more rewards, and the people that win against the most play in a "final".
Stuff like that builds communities and it sells these sets very well, way more than they would without anything like that.
Almost no deck is worth buying for a profit (a handful of Commander decks at least early on, not so now) if the content is really extremely valuable.
Putting codes in these products to get the same cards in MTG-Arena is basically free for WotC and they should absolutely do it for all products.
I would even advocate that each booster pack should have a code that provides the content of the pack in MTG-Arena as well, buying stuff in paper AND digital was always terrible.
"Putting codes in these products to get the same cards in MTG-Arena is basically free for WotC and they should absolutely do it for all products." I think besides wizards themselves that is something everyone can get behind.
Using such a league system is a good idea to sell the product. And sorf of solution to a Point I totally forgot about LGS were often sitting on lots of non commander precons like the theme decks etc. so for them it is just not profitable to buy that many if any to sell, I think that also helped the decline of set specific regular precons.
It seems that the problem here is less “I want more preconstructed 60-card decks” and more “I wish WotC made a magic format that was monetized to my tastes”.
1. No booster pack lottery or buying singles because everything comes in a precon deck.
2. Doubling down on no buying singles as the codes in product would incentivize buying the actual product.
3. Accessible to all because the product would be sold at a “fair” price point.
4. Released regularly rather than once a blue moon so you can enjoy each element of each set even if you want to be playing the budget version.
While the ability to create a “kiddy pool” format with fair pricing within the larger ecology of MTG seems possible, it would represent a tremendous shift in monetization and would cause some possible problems.
1. Especially with such a small card pool, it is easy to imagine the meta of any given format being solved within a couple of weeks. Along these lines, a single underestimated card design could decimate the format for months and banning a card would be more significant in this format as there would be fewer cards to work with in the first place. Imagine if the you want to get some commons from a pack (which you can’t get from the other intro packs) but knowing that the rare in that pack is banned. Serious feel-bad moment.
2. The format gives no real way to transition out. There’s no reason for a player of the format to ever get a draft booster. Even if they get something that they think is cool, they can’t ever use it without leaving the “kiddy pool” and likely getting steamrolled. MTGA kind of solves this problem as you are still getting money to get packs and wild cards but... those rewards mean absolutely nothing to players of this format. Until you save up enough boosters/WCs to build a full standard deck, being rewarded with booster packs you can’t use in your format isn’t really worth much. Ooh, or they could join drafts... and be rewarded with more cards they can’t play...
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I bought so many Theme Decks, Intro Packs, and Planeswalker Decks because they are simple, cheap, and allows me to sample all the themes and mechanics of the set, although Planeswalker Decks do not do that as they have 2 instead of 4 or 5 per set, and thus only half the themes and mechanics of the set. I am not looking for a competitive product, and I am not looking to make the money back from my purchase. Do any of you say any MTG product is a bad one just because you can't sell the singles and make a profit, or because you get whooped at FNM? Is there anyone here who actually likes a MTG product without thinking about value and competitiveness?
How many of you played the Magic Online free demo, where, at the time, they had the 5 core set intro packs, and all you could do was play against random strangers who also used one of these 5 core set intro packs? When you were a new player, did any of you enjoy playing Intro Pack vs Intro Pack?
Here is why I really hate their decision to replace the Planeswalker Decks with Commander Decks. Imagine this scenario:
Kid walks into LGS.
Clerk: Hey Kid, what do you want to buy?
Kid: I'm looking for a job.
Clerk: Aren't you too young to get a job?
Kid: I can sort cards and stock shelves.
Clerk: Shouldn't you be playing Commander or something?
Kid: Yeah, that's what I was trying to do.
If you haven't noticed, LGS's sell Planeswalker Decks in the $10 to $20 range. I don't know about you, but a set of 5 Ikoria Commander Decks sell for over $200. I know that Gavin said that WOTC made this change because "everyone was playing Commander", and that new players would want to play what everyone else is playing, but that don't mean anything if each Commander Deck costs $50, at least in Canada, and in case you haven't noticed, that scenario above was based on a commercial from Canada.
What WOTC really should have done was brought back Intro Packs, except keep the rarities of the Planeswalker Decks. Instead of the Intro Packs having 2 rares in them, they would have 1 mythic and 4 rares. The Mythic, which is no longer a Planeswalker, would be exclusive to the deck. 2 of the 4 rares are drawn from the set that it is associated with while the other 2 rares are 2 copies of a rare exclusive to the deck. There would be 3 copies of an exclusive uncommon and 4 copies of an exclusive common, much like what the Planeswalker Decks did with their exclusive cards. Each expansion set would have 4 Intro Packs, while Core Sets would have 5.
The Intro Packs would include a code card that redeems the exact deck in MTG Arena. In MTG Arena, a new format would be created where the only decks that are legal are Intro Packs. When I redeemed a Planeswalker Deck on MTG Arena, I could edit it, but with Intro Packs, you can't edit it. You can, however, make a copy of the deck and edit the copy. This is to prevent anyone from losing the Intro Pack decklist that would be used to play in the Intro Pack format.
I really believe that Intro Packs will sell more if they were tied to MTG Arena. I'm not saying that having Ikoria Commander is a bad thing, it is the act of replacing the Planeswalker Deck that is the bad thing. Heck, going from the 5 choices Intro Pack to the 2 choices Planeswalker Deck was already bad, but now instead of having the option to explore Ikoria via preconstructed decks by playing the regular rules, you have no choice but to shell out $230 for a set of 5 Commander Decks, just to explore the themes and mechanics of Ikoria by playing Commander. I view Ikoria Commander to be kind of like what the Eldraine Brawl Decks were, so they essentially discontinued the cheap set associated preconstructed deck option, rather than giving new players a cheap precon deck option that could be played on MTG Arena. What's worse is that MTG Arena doesn't support Commander, and unlike Planeswalker Decks, these set associated Commander Decks can't simply be brought into MTG Arena. Imagine trying to sample the Themes and Mechanics of Ikoria or Zendikar Rising on MTG Arena, but you can't because their preconstructed decks are Commander, and MTG Arena doesn't support Commander. Yeah sure, MTG Arena could technically have a set of 4 or 5 decks that samples the themes and mecahnics of Ikoria, but it would be more fun if there was a physical copy too, for those who want to experience the Intro Pack vs Intro Pack battle with physical cards.
I personally never found any appeal in the 60card set associated precons mainly because the Limiting Cardpool since most of the cards have to come from the same set, and also that they spread the decks thinly so you only get a one of card that works really well with the core mechanic and like 4 different one offs of cards that have litte to no conection to the decks theme instead of multiples of the cards that kinda make the deck. That always lead me even with the limited amount of precons I bought either not play them or like changing out more than 50% of the cards before even playing.
I do remember the time when I didn't have an MTGO account yet and playing the trial but I found for me It became really boring after a couple of games. I mean I do like the "board game appeal" but I personally don't think Setprecons is the way to go for that as even just casually those are pretty underwhelming and don't show of what magic has to offer.
For reference I think I bought an UB Precon from one of the OG Mirrodin sets, The UB from Coldsnap, The rats deck which had jitte in it and The izzet deck and the most recent being the Izzet intro pack from return to ravnica. There might have been more but thats the ones I remember.
In comparison I've bought at least one of the commander precons most of the time because the issues I have with set60 card precons are not really there. However I personally don't like the Commander Set Precons that much especially when they tie it to a set mechanic that mostly synergizes with itself as it has the same limitations the set 60 card precons have.
Casually I play both Commander,Limited and "Regular" mostly Multiplayer with a 1-on-1 here and there, and I play Competetive. For bias clarity
It provides a bunch of different cards and enough room to get an idea how a theme of the deck is working and is enjoyable for that person.
Then they can slowly build it up with better cards.
If a bunch of people do that it works very well.
----
Stores in my area did before the virus special tournament "leagues" (over weeks) where people buy a deck, either Planeswalker and/or Commander decks, whatever is new, and then they allow you to add booster packs and tweak the deck with them, kinda like a Sealed Pool over time.
People that buy into these leagues get promos and if they play 10 different people that are also in the league over the time, they get more rewards, and the people that win against the most play in a "final".
Stuff like that builds communities and it sells these sets very well, way more than they would without anything like that.
Almost no deck is worth buying for a profit (a handful of Commander decks at least early on, not so now) if the content is really extremely valuable.
Putting codes in these products to get the same cards in MTG-Arena is basically free for WotC and they should absolutely do it for all products.
I would even advocate that each booster pack should have a code that provides the content of the pack in MTG-Arena as well, buying stuff in paper AND digital was always terrible.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Using such a league system is a good idea to sell the product. And sorf of solution to a Point I totally forgot about LGS were often sitting on lots of non commander precons like the theme decks etc. so for them it is just not profitable to buy that many if any to sell, I think that also helped the decline of set specific regular precons.
1. No booster pack lottery or buying singles because everything comes in a precon deck.
2. Doubling down on no buying singles as the codes in product would incentivize buying the actual product.
3. Accessible to all because the product would be sold at a “fair” price point.
4. Released regularly rather than once a blue moon so you can enjoy each element of each set even if you want to be playing the budget version.
While the ability to create a “kiddy pool” format with fair pricing within the larger ecology of MTG seems possible, it would represent a tremendous shift in monetization and would cause some possible problems.
1. Especially with such a small card pool, it is easy to imagine the meta of any given format being solved within a couple of weeks. Along these lines, a single underestimated card design could decimate the format for months and banning a card would be more significant in this format as there would be fewer cards to work with in the first place. Imagine if the you want to get some commons from a pack (which you can’t get from the other intro packs) but knowing that the rare in that pack is banned. Serious feel-bad moment.
2. The format gives no real way to transition out. There’s no reason for a player of the format to ever get a draft booster. Even if they get something that they think is cool, they can’t ever use it without leaving the “kiddy pool” and likely getting steamrolled. MTGA kind of solves this problem as you are still getting money to get packs and wild cards but... those rewards mean absolutely nothing to players of this format. Until you save up enough boosters/WCs to build a full standard deck, being rewarded with booster packs you can’t use in your format isn’t really worth much. Ooh, or they could join drafts... and be rewarded with more cards they can’t play...